The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Member Map
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. Non Life Sciences
  3. Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology
  4. Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Can we ever truly describe space as empty?

  • 24 Replies
  • 2644 Views
  • 5 Tags

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline iacopo.russo (OP)

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 18
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Naked Scientists Intern
    • View Profile
Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« on: 06/10/2021 12:09:13 »
Ron wrote to us to ask:

"Can space ever be described as empty when the electrostatic field of oscillations is always active allowing us to perceive the history of our universe?"

What do you think?
Logged
 



Offline Origin

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 1199
  • Activity:
    24%
  • Thanked: 76 times
  • Do good and avoid evil.
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #1 on: 06/10/2021 13:10:00 »
No.
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: Zer0

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 6068
  • Activity:
    7.5%
  • Thanked: 633 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #2 on: 06/10/2021 13:13:37 »
Quote from: iacopo.russo on 06/10/2021 12:09:13
"Can space ever be described as empty when the electrostatic field of oscillations is always active allowing us to perceive the history of our universe?"
Well Ron, you are right that the electromagnetic field is continually active in the form of light, radio waves including microwaves etc and these fill space.
I think what people mean by empty is no solid stuff, but even then there is hydrogen, charged particles, neutrinos, dust and other stuff.
So not empty at all

Edit: Whoops, overlap with Origin. He’s not as wordy as me  ;D
« Last Edit: 06/10/2021 13:18:28 by Colin2B »
Logged
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.
 
The following users thanked this post: Zer0

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 14266
  • Activity:
    97.5%
  • Thanked: 1081 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #3 on: 06/10/2021 16:31:45 »
It's defined as empty.

If you scatter stuff into an infinite space, you have created a universe of stuff separated by space.
Logged
helping to stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline geordief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 507
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 32 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #4 on: 06/10/2021 16:54:16 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 06/10/2021 16:31:45
It's defined as empty.

If you scatter stuff into an infinite space, you have created a universe of stuff separated by space.
So empty space is a model that works?

Does the model break down at all in extreme circumstances?
Logged
 



Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 6068
  • Activity:
    7.5%
  • Thanked: 633 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #5 on: 06/10/2021 17:47:58 »
Quote from: geordief on 06/10/2021 16:54:16
So empty space is a model that works?

Does the model break down at all in extreme circumstances?
Yes, when all the space is full  ;D
Logged
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.
 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 3713
  • Activity:
    12.5%
  • Thanked: 513 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #6 on: 06/10/2021 17:54:49 »
Space is "practically empty" for anybody used to how crowded it is on earth (ie the density of matter in our atmosphere is a couple million times greater than in "empty space.") But Earth's atmosphere is "practically empty space" compared to anything that lives in the sea or in the atmosphere of Jupiter. Even our rocky planet is "practically empty space" compared to the inside of a neutron star!

We can choose to describe the universe as an empty space that is populated with things, but there is no part of the actual universe that is completely devoid of things, leaving only space there... so that's a meaningless extension of the model.

We can also choose to describe the universe as a collection of fields, in which the field "is everywhere" and all "things" are only the distortions of one or more fields. In this sense, empty space is just boring fields (it cannot be empty of fields, but at the same time, fields are not things).
Logged
 

Offline geordief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 507
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 32 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #7 on: 06/10/2021 18:08:04 »
Quote from: chiralSPO on 06/10/2021 17:54:49
this sense, empty space is just boring fields (it cannot be empty of fields, but at the same time, fields are not things
Are fields objects? Are they objects with the potentiality to become "things"?

Or do they just exist as the potentiality to become measurements?
Logged
 

Offline geordief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 507
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 32 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #8 on: 06/10/2021 18:31:46 »
Quote from: Colin2B on 06/10/2021 17:47:58
Quote from: geordief on 06/10/2021 16:54:16
So empty space is a model that works?

Does the model break down at all in extreme circumstances?
Yes, when all the space is full  ;D
Would that impossibility prevent the singularity in a BH from happening?
Logged
 



Online evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 10256
  • Activity:
    36.5%
  • Thanked: 1229 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #9 on: 06/10/2021 20:28:22 »
Quote from: OP
Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
According to a current popular theory, "Cold and Empty" is the long-term fate of the universe (even though the official name of this event is "the heat death of the universe", it is not hot or dense).

As space expands, the temperature of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) declines.
- When the CMBR drops below a few nanoKelvins, the Hawking Radiation of black holes will be higher than the incoming CMBR, and black holes will start to evaporate.
- The average temperature of the universe asymptotically approaches absolute zero
- The average density of the universe asymptotically approaches zero

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: Zer0

Offline TommyJ

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 123
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 28 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #10 on: 07/10/2021 10:29:25 »
For about 2500 years since Democritus till 2012, when the Higgs boson, discovered at the CERN, there might have been a question about emptiness between particles.
Today - definitely 'no'. The field is there.
If all the objects around us are constructed with particles and fields, the field might be called an object.

Object (noun)
1. A material thing that can be seen and touched.
2. A person or thing to which a specified action or feeling is directed.

A physical object or physical body (or simply an object or body) is a collection of matter within a defined contiguous boundary in three-dimensional space.
Logged
Number, Letter, Note: Know, Think, Dream.
 

Offline geordief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 507
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 32 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #11 on: 07/10/2021 13:29:36 »
Is there any possibility that the Universe ,in its present configuration could actually leak  into (into what????) in the kind of way BHs leak into the Universe (Hawking radiation)?

If virtual particles   can appear and disappear can there be ,so to speak movement in the "opposite" direction?

Logged
 

Offline Origin

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 1199
  • Activity:
    24%
  • Thanked: 76 times
  • Do good and avoid evil.
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #12 on: 07/10/2021 15:58:02 »
Quote from: geordief on 07/10/2021 13:29:36
Is there any possibility that the Universe ,in its present configuration could actually leak  into (into what?) in the kind of way BHs leak into the Universe (Hawking radiation)?
The universe cannot leak into anything since the is nothing outside of the universe to leak into.  Blackholes cannot leak into the universe, since they are already in the universe.
Quote from: geordief on 07/10/2021 13:29:36
If virtual particles   can appear and disappear can there be ,so to speak movement in the "opposite" direction?
I don't know what you mean by that.
Logged
 



Offline geordief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 507
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 32 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #13 on: 07/10/2021 16:20:48 »
Quote from: Origin on 07/10/2021 15:58:02
I don't know what you mean by that
Well apparently particles (via the virtual particle process) can appear out of nowhere**

Can they similarly disappear into nowhere (causing the universe itself to leak in a similar way to black holes)?

**I don't personally understand  how virtual particles work,except for learning that some physicists wish they had never been so named...
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: Zer0

Offline geordief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 507
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 32 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #14 on: 07/10/2021 16:29:41 »
Quote from: Origin on 07/10/2021 15:58:02
The universe cannot leak into anything since the is nothing outside of the universe to leak into. 
If there is anything to multiverse theory might that imply  the possibility of a space separate from "the Universe"  that things could "leak into"?
Logged
 

Offline Origin

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 1199
  • Activity:
    24%
  • Thanked: 76 times
  • Do good and avoid evil.
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #15 on: 07/10/2021 17:19:25 »
Quote from: geordief on 07/10/2021 16:29:41
If there is anything to multiverse theory might that imply  the possibility of a space separate from "the Universe"  that things could "leak into"?
I am not a fan of the multiverse hypothesis, so I can't help you there....
Logged
 

Offline Halc

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 2256
  • Activity:
    18.5%
  • Thanked: 564 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #16 on: 07/10/2021 19:29:49 »
I'm sort of answering a bunch of questions. This is not a long answer to one question.

Quote from: geordief on 07/10/2021 13:29:36
Is there any possibility that the Universe ,in its present configuration could actually leak  into (into what????) in the kind of way BHs leak into the Universe (Hawking radiation)?
This depends heavily on one's definition of 'universe', but there is such an equivalence:

A black hole event horizon is divider between spacetime events which are in the causal past of other specific events (in this case future-null-infinity), and those that are not.
Similarly, due to the acceleration of expansion, an event horizon forms relative to any location in space dividing spacetime events into those that lie in the causal past of the location in space and those that do not. This is sort of similar to a Rindler horizon in a properly accelerating reference frame. In all those cases, there is radiation similar to Hawking radiation, leaking energy from outside the event horizon to inside it. For a Rindler horizon the radiation is called Unruh radiation, and I don't know the name of the equivalent radiation for the horizon that forms due to dark energy.

- - - -
Concerning how the definition of 'universe' might effect things being able to enter or exit it:

If the universe is defined as all points in space currently on our side of this event horizon, then material (galaxies, etc) regularly exit this universe since the horizon is currently about 16 billion LY in radius and growing only slightly, so galaxies out there are increasing their proper distance from us at over light speed and are thus exiting this universe. No, you don't see them disappear as they fall through the event horizon any more than you see a rock blink out when you drop it into a black hole.

If the universe is defined as the visible universe, it is currently about 48 BLY in radius and growing at a rate of over 4c. New material moves into that from outside over time, which is sort of the opposite of the above.

If the 'universe' is defined to be all of spacetime, then it is a closed system by most models and there is nowhere and no time for things to exit or enter.

- - - -
Concerning the 'multiverse' bit, there are at least five different kinds of multiverse (and thus no single 'the multiverse hypothesis'), some of which are accepted by pretty much all cosmologists, and some by hardly any of them.

If by multiverse, you mean many-worlds, that interpretation of quantum mechanics does not actually posit that the universe undergoes some sort of magical split into two separate places, let along two places where it is meaningful for things to move between.
Logged
 



Offline geordief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 507
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 32 times
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #17 on: 07/10/2021 19:41:00 »
Quote from: Halc on 07/10/2021 19:29:49
I'm sort of answering a bunch of questions. This is not a long answer to one question.
Thanks. That was interesting and appreciated (no ,I don't  know enough about the different multiverse theories  to expand on what  I may have had in mind)
Logged
 

Offline Black hole

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 60
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #18 on: 15/10/2021 19:00:18 »
Quote from: iacopo.russo on 06/10/2021 12:09:13
Ron wrote to us to ask:

"Can space ever be described as empty when the electrostatic field of oscillations is always active allowing us to perceive the history of our universe?"

What do you think?

Inner space is full of visual matter and matter that is beyond human vision . Outer space , an exterior may be empty of all matter . Maybe in the future we can provide a more accurate answer when we have developed the ability to travel or observe beyond our present means .
Logged
 

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • *****
  • 3065
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Can we ever truly describe space as empty?
« Reply #19 on: 16/10/2021 17:58:27 »
Quote from: Origin on 07/10/2021 15:58:02
Quote from: geordief on 07/10/2021 13:29:36
Is there any possibility that the Universe ,in its present configuration could actually leak  into (into what?) in the kind of way BHs leak into the Universe (Hawking radiation)?
The universe cannot leak into anything since the is nothing outside of the universe to leak into.  Blackholes cannot leak into the universe, since they are already in the universe.
Quote from: geordief on 07/10/2021 13:29:36
If virtual particles   can appear and disappear can there be ,so to speak movement in the "opposite" direction?
I don't know what you mean by that.
You say the universe cannot leak into anything since there  is nothing outside of the universe to leak into. However do we know that for sure. I would say our currently understanding of the universe is not good enough to disregard many possibilities , We simply don’t know enough.

It’s possible that what we consider to be the  universe is not the full story . There is also the multiverse theories and also a theory that dark energy could be caused by those multiverses somehow interacting with our universe.

It could be all tosh and like most people know very little on the subject but it’s people asking those questions that leads to new discoveries .
« Last Edit: 16/10/2021 22:31:21 by ukmicky »
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: Zer0



  • Print
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags: space  / vacuum  / empty  / multiverse  / em fields 
 

Similar topics (5)

Can anything be "still" in space?

Started by SeanyBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 31
Views: 16661
Last post 31/12/2017 16:56:38
by jeffreyH
Is "Space" distinct from "nothingness"? (and the Vacuum)

Started by geordiefBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 60
Views: 12378
Last post 26/08/2021 15:11:37
by Just thinking
We Know The Extent Of The Sun, What Is The Extent Of Space Time?

Started by TitanscapeBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 2
Views: 13461
Last post 27/04/2008 23:10:10
by turnipsock
If the Universe is expanding, does this mean that space is expanding?

Started by EthosBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 14
Views: 14829
Last post 27/03/2020 21:05:55
by yor_on
Is a stationary object in space really stationary?

Started by chintanBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 20
Views: 14334
Last post 19/03/2020 14:55:35
by Paul25
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.122 seconds with 82 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.