Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Technology => Topic started by: acsinuk on 01/09/2020 10:53:52
-
1] Engine capacity under 1,100 cc for out of town use.
2] Electric transmission
3] Battery capable of driving just 20 miles inside a city
4] Fuel tank large enough to go 200 miles.
5] Four seats with 2 doors and lift-up rear boot door
9] Key operated ignition and driver door.
This is basically a city electric run-about car + occasional trips out.
Can only afford £10,000 though; so which car do you recommend?
-
Can only afford £10,000 though; so which car do you recommend?
Whatever you can find second hand.
-
But check the remaining battery capacity. Early models had limited battery life.
-
A 15kW motor will require a Lithium ion battery that has about 10 kWhr of charge. No doubt the batteries will cost around a £1,000 but only weigh about 100 kg so not too heavy and easily manageable. We should be able to develop this vehicle in the UK without involving China.
-
A 15kW motor will require a Lithium ion battery that has about 10 kWhr of charge. No doubt the batteries will cost around a £1,000 but only weigh about 100 kg so not too heavy and easily manageable. We should be able to develop this vehicle in the UK without involving China.
It's not as if involving China is the end of the world.
I don't think there are any commercially viable lithium deposits in the UK.
Vauxhall need to work on their advertising.
https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/grandland-x/hybrid.html
-
Yes, but why is the vehicle so expensive? A battery quad bike with lockable doors is what we need electrically; with a large lawn motor engine for motorways! Surely someone in the UK can produce a run-about for less than £10,000? It must be possible!!!.
-
A battery quad bike with lockable doors
In a country with a National Health Service, if the driver breaks their neck after flipping their battery quad bike, suddenly the cost is far higher than £10,000.
- That's why seat belts, airbags, and a roll-resistant frame are built into modern cars
- If you want an economy vehicle, motor bikes carry all of the same risks, but at a far lower price point
- In Shanghai a few years ago, I saw what a mass program to electrify 2-stroke commuter bikes could achieve - they managed to fit batteries into a surprising range of bikes - and the result was much quieter and cleaner!
- More recently, some home-delivery food services seem to be using electric-assisted pushbikes.
-
The 4 seat requirement is the problem. By the time you have accommodated four people in an enclosed body with a hatchback, you have left the realms of motorbike or tricycle and must meet the roadworthiness and crash safety requirements of a car. You will then need more than a lawnmower engine to avoid annoying other road users: 50 mph motorway crawlers aren't a problem, and people tolerate tractors on B roads because that is what they do, but nobody wants to follow a small car for 200 miles if it slows down to a walk whenever the road slopes upwards.
Most new cars are sold to people who already own a car, so the manufacturer needs to add enough bells and whistles to convince a regular driver to trade down to your minimal specification. The Fiat 500 is about as small as you can get with a decent level of comfort, and at £15,000-ish new, you can probably buy a good hybrid secondhand within your budget.
Depressingly, Smart electric cars on the secondhand market seem to have covered about 1000 miles per year. A taxi would be cheaper, more comfortable, bigger, less worry (someone else washes it and does the driving) and not take up a parking space.
-
Four seats
A battery quad bike
Which do you want?
Bikes don't have 4 seats, so you can't have both.
-
Just watched a programme on freight trains and the explanation that global movement of goods at the cheapest price increases everyone's standard of living. They showed a huge diesel electric train made by GE a world leader.
We need the same thinking in personal transport, the cheapest cleanest diesel electric car for longer journeys with a battery that can do just 20 miles or 30 km in cities with no pollution.
-
Exactly what the government intends to ban.
-
cheapest cleanest diesel electric
I think that's four separate contradictions in terms.
Cleanest isn't diesel
Cheapest isn't electric
Cheapest isn't cleanest
Diesel electric isn't cheapest or cleanest.
-
a battery that can do just 20 miles or 30 km in cities with no pollution.
By magic.
Because non-magical cars need to charge that battery somehow.
If we don't have lots of non-polluting renewable power you need to use magic to meet acsinuk's plan
-
Some years back, Saab demonstrated a diesel car whose exhaust was almost pure CO2 and H2O - cleaner than the city air it was taking in. They no longer make cars.
Audi have synthesised liquid fuel from atmospheric CO2 and H2O. The electrical energy input to the process was disgraceful.
-
We must get going on producing a micro electric city runabout car immediately. It is obvious that pollution of city air must stop. We need a city electric runabout and China have already produced millions of then, some for even under £1,000 apparently.
So why can't we produce our own hybrid for under £10,000? It must be possible.
-
China have already produced millions of then, some for even under £1,000 apparently.
And none of which meet EU safety standards. By the time you have incorporated safe seats, a frame strong enough to attach seat belts, brakes that work, tyres and suspension that allow you to go round corners without rolling over or sliding off the wet surface, adequate energy-absorbing bumpers and bodywork, fire resistance, and lighting at approved heights and intensities, you end up with something like a Smart or Corsa, so you might as well give it enough welly to go up hills and along motorways, like a Smart or Corsa.
And then find some way for a citydweller to recharge it.
I'd be interested to see the real argument about air pollution. We are told that it is responsible for umpteen zillion deaths, but whilst pollution levels continue to rise, recorded deaths from pulmonary disease continue to fall and life expectancy increases year by year (until COVID).
-
But Alan the point is that the battery has only to run for 20 miles and a couple of Lithium ion batteries would be light enough to carry indoors for recharging over night. We don't need the huge heavy batteries that Tesla uses.
-
The cheap Chinese runabouts you suggest, use two truck batteries at about 30 lb each. My London friends live on the 4th floor of a block with no lift. Not that it matters as they are over 75 and therefore disposable, according to your other posts, but for the time being they use a safe, comfortable Prius and have plenty of exercise carrying their shopping up the stairs.
-
Toyota Prius is fine but very expensive. We need a micro electric car with 30 kW motor and 30 kWh Lithium ion battery for city use with possibility of adding 1 litre petrol or diesel engine or hybrid design.for motorway use.
-
I've been looking at buying a tuk-tuk as a sensible short-haul vehicle. 40 mph is entirely adequate for town use, shopping, or even taking me to the airport. They generally use 4 kW motors, either electric or petrol (200 cc 4-stroke). The difference is that the petrol version costs 30% of the electric one and has practically unlimited range (max 40 miles for the electric version) , so no contest.
-
That ratio of 4 kW motor to 200 cc engine is OK for a 3 wheel tuk-tuk but for a city runabout micro-car we need at least 8 kW motor with 10kWh battery. There is still nothing available in England that meets my specification. What is wrong with the government, they keep funding research at universities like Notts but not using their knowledge to manufacture the result. No wonder China is so far ahead of us??
-
What is wrong with the government, they keep funding research at universities like Notts but not using their knowledge to manufacture the result.
Did it occur to you that the govt is not a car maker?
So, presumably, you meant something like "what is wrong with car makers- the government has paid for the research, yet they are not making exactly the sort of Car that I want".
Well, the answer to that is probably capitalism.
-
If the government used taxpayers' money to directly fund the building of an Actual Product that people want, that would be Socialism and therefore a Bad Thing. Unlike giving taxpayers' money to Tory Party supporters to run "track and trace in name only", import defective PPE, float a bogus ferry company with no ships, and so forth, which is called Prudent Conservatism and therefore a Good Thing.
-
It has been a little while since I've thought about electric vehicles. But, my plan was to have an EV with a range of say 100 miles around the city.
Then when one wanted to go out of town, attach a generator trailer as a ranger extender.
Have the generator capable of output of approximately half the typical freeway driving power consumption. So you still drain the battery during your trip, but extend the range by about 2x. And, if you wished, you could stop for a couple of hours, recharge, then keep going.
-
Problem is your limited speed when towing a loose-coupled trailer, and the fun of reversing it uphill into a parking space. Plus you have to go home and collect the trailer any time you want to drive more than 50 miles.
-
I don't think there are any commercially viable lithium deposits in the UK.
The UK is unusually varied, geologically, and yes:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-54188071
I doubt that a hybrid is worth it for you. If you need to do 200 miles, get a full electric car with a 150 mile range, do a full charge before you leave and do a rapid charge along the way to get the remaining 50 miles. Rapid chargers give you around 250 miles/per hour of added range, so you'd only have to stop for quarter of an hour, in a ~4 hour journey.
Hybrids have extra maintenance issues and are less reliable.
-
We need a 10 to 30 kW permanent magnet all electric car with no gearbox using a 15kWh battery for going around our clean air cities.
Out of town we could possibly tow a generator or better still install the generator as a boot attachment or even on a roof rack. Still no sign of any English micro-electric basic city car yet. Where are the venture capital people hiding. They are really about to miss out on a great opportunity.
-
The venture capital guys are happily building electric and hybrid cars that people actually want, but nobody has enough money to install the electricity supply we will need to replace the internal combustion engine. That would not provide a good return on capital.
-
We need to design an affordable electric city runabout which we can get built in India at a competitive price. This will reduce our dependence on China and the far east where English is not the normal language of choice.
Easier to explain to engineers what the desired mods are to perfect the design later.
-
This will reduce our dependence on China and the far east where English is not the normal language of choice.
But increase it in India where English is not the normal language of choice.
We need to design an affordable electric city runabout which we can get built in India at a competitive price.
Do you really think that nobody in India can design one?
Which is a bigger market for "an affordable electric city runabout", India or the UK?
-
Tata, Mahindra and Maruti already produce electric cars in India, ranging from medium family cars to city runabouts. You can also get electric tuk-tuks but they are a bit expensive .
English may not be the language of choice for any given family, but with 23 officially recognised languages and possibly 1000 distinct dialects, it is the language of business.
-
Thanks Alan,
So which car can I buy that meets my specification and is permitted to drive on our roads?? I keep looking but all I get is import agencies recommendations..
I want to buy an electric city runabout car here in England out of a showroom. But where??.
-
I keep looking but all I get is import agencies recommendations..
That's like complaining that you want a Maserati, but don't want a "foreign" one.
-
Thanks Alan,
So which car can I buy that meets my specification and is permitted to drive on our roads?? I keep looking but all I get is import agencies recommendations..
I want to buy an electric city runabout car here in England out of a showroom. But where??.
https://www.goingreen.co.uk/
-
Thanks Alan, but I was really looking for a locally made micro-mini city runabout with a 10 to 20 kW permanent magnet motor and Lithium ion 10 to 15 kWh battery. The Chinese are using exactly that in their motorbikes see
https://www.evokemotorcycles.com/urban-classic
What I want is some company here; to fit this power unit into a tiny UK car...
-
What I want is some company here...
Why?
What's wrong with having it made in France or India or wherever?
-
Traitor.
-
The BMW I3 REX checks most of the boxes.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/2018_BMW_i3_facelift_%281%29.jpg/640px-2018_BMW_i3_facelift_%281%29.jpg)
The original ones had a 60 Ah battery capable of about 72 miles. New ones have a 120 Ah battery capable of 126 miles.
The car is designed around being full electric, but the "REX" motor is somewhat of an add-on. 0.7L engine with a 9L fuel tank.
US models had limits put on the amount of fuel that could be used, but there are software hacks that would allow drivers to determine when to kick in the motor, and to open the whole fuel tank.
The price tag isn't bargain basement, but there should be some used 2014 cars hitting the market with the original 60 AH battery pack. The battery pack will be slightly degraded, but should still get the OP around for his daily commute.
I'd be surprised if there aren't some Chinese/Indian/Japanese clones designed for their domestic markets, but one still has issues with the price of the battery pack.
-
All very true but
1. BMW don't manufacture it in Britain
2. The i3 is precisely the car that my neighbor owns but doesn't use because the bike is quicker for short journeys to the office and she doesn't fancy sitting around unaccompanied at a motorway charging station in the middle of the night for a long journey!
It is however terrific fun to drive, and with sufficient range to get to the airport and thus negate the entire point.
700cc is plenty for cruising at 50 mph and you can always carry a jerrycan with another 25 liters of fuel, which makes it almost a practical car, if somewhat overweight.
-
There are UK cars, but I'm not convinced a Sinclair would fit the bill, but a lithium battery might do wonders for an old EV.
700cc is plenty for cruising at 50 mph and you can always carry a jerrycan with another 25 liters of fuel, which makes it almost a practical car, if somewhat overweight.
I think the REX was originally designed to automatically kick in at 20% charge. But there are hacks allowing a driver to choose to start if they wish below 80% charge.
So, for the most part, one is never driving only on REX power, and should be able to reach freeway speeds. If one is planning a 100+ mile trip, just fire up the REX at 80%, and drive until the tank is empty, and refill (or like you said, carry a couple gallon can in the "frunk"... or is it a "f-oot" in the UK? I'd like to see a purpose made auxiliary tank plumbed into the main tank with a transfer pump, preferably removable, but also with some crash provisions.
-
Oh, there is even a Sinclair C5 on E-Bay, and a reasonable price at that. If only they would ship to the USA.
-
I am pleased to see we are all nearly agreeing that small city 15kW electric PM motor with a 15kWh Lithium battery EV are what is needed but where are is the grant money to get a manufacturing plant up and running in Coventry or where-ever??
-
where is the grant money to get a manufacturing plant up and running in Coventry or where-ever??
Forbidden by EU regulations. Not that they applied elsewhere in the EU, of course.
Meanwhile Coventry airport is about to be turned into a giant battery factory - honestly! Massive blow to the environment: small city airports are fabulous wildlife havens with at least a square mile of native grass surrounding the runways. So they will replace it with a stinking chemical factory to produce batteries that can't be charged without burning gas, to power new cars that can't be manufactured without burning oil.
Remember: a mile of road will take you nowhere; a mile of runway will take you anywhere.
-
Forbidden by EU regulations.
No. You can't use that excuse anymore.
Blaming an organisation of which we are no longer a member is a bit silly.
a mile of runway will take you anywhere.
Not to my house, it won't.
-
We need micro/mini EV's for clean air city runabouts. Small battery for short trips. Cheap to run and maintain.
I agree that large batteries used by Tesla and other prestigious Chelsea tanks are totally wasteful.
Heavy duty goods vehicles would obviously use tons of batteries so would prove to be totally uneconomical and a time wasting inconvenience for the drivers.