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Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: syhprum on 28/09/2020 14:26:13

Title: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: syhprum on 28/09/2020 14:26:13
There are two countries that have an abundance of prisoners on which to test any vaccine , China and the USA, if there is any grain of truth that the virus was developed as a weapon by the military development of a vaccine would have started early but I think in the USA corruption and other things such as religion would have impaired development.
I feel that the UK development might be slowed by over caution likewise the Russian by corruption and politics.
I think I will go for the Chinese if I get a choice
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/09/2020 16:27:35
There are two countries that have an abundance of prisoners on which to test any vaccine , China and the USA
That's probably illegal in both countries.
The US might even obey the law about it.
https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/CFR-1996-title21-vol1/CFR-1996-title21-vol1-sec50-44
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: syhprum on 28/09/2020 20:46:20
since when have the military cared about the law they do what they consider in the "national interest" the law is what rogue nations should be forced into obeying
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/09/2020 21:22:42
True, but the military don't run the prisons; private enterprise does that, and they want to keep the inmates there making a profit.
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: evan_au on 28/09/2020 23:32:21
I would rather encourage an international vaccine effort, with testing across different counties, and licensed manufacturing in multiple countries.
- The US has already said that their licensing agreement will guarantee that 90% of the output of the manufacturer will go to the USA, denying other countries access to the vaccine.
- There is an international consortium that is funding vaccine access to the poorest counties at the long-term manufacturing cost - but it requires the rich countries to fund it.
- This leaves a lot of "middle income" countries who still will not be able to afford even this low price.

Here in Australia, the government has been in supply discussions with a couple of potential vaccine designers.
- The licensing agreement is conditional on passing phase 3 tests
- Part of the discussion is license of the manufacturing process (there is an existing vaccine manufacturer in Australia)

I get the impression that the Russian and Chinese vaccines skipped phase 3 trials (and getting a vaccine released before the US elections would probably short-circuit the US Phase 3 trials).
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 29/09/2020 10:21:33
I rather fancy the oxford vaccine (sorry Cambridge) as its a standard inactivated virus dose, rather than a genetically modified so and so virus from the lesser spotted poison fish of some where. I cant say I have particular faith in mans ability not to bugger up, they say it about nuclear, they say it about all advancements, we end up with ddt, global warming, asbestos, lead paint, chernobyl. A virus is a bit different to the problems listed above, its a bit infectious and can spread so any genius advanccements concern me a great ammount. Que the people saying im paranoid and everything will be fine, just like they did previously with killer bees.
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: evan_au on 29/09/2020 12:08:40
Quote from: Petrochemicals
I rather fancy the oxford vaccine (sorry Cambridge) as its a standard inactivated virus dose
I'm afraid not.

As I understand it, the Oxford vaccine is a genetically-modified live chimpanzee adenovirus.
- No natural adenovirus will express a spike protein from a coronavirus
- I think you will find that virtually all of the vaccine candidates use some form of genetic engineering - after all, this is the first virus which got into worldwide labs first via its RNA sequence.

The only way you could produce a coronavirus vaccine without genetic engineering would be to mass-grow the coronavirus, and deactivate it; you then need an adjuvant to get the attention of the immune system.
- Mass-growing a new virus is a major challenge!
- Reliably deactivating it (without deactivating the the immune response) is also a major challenge...

The only "standard"/routine new vaccine is the annual flu vaccine - but that addresses the influenza virus, not a coronavirus.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_vaccine_candidates
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31604-4/fulltext
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 29/09/2020 16:01:31
Quote from: Petrochemicals
I rather fancy the oxford vaccine (sorry Cambridge) as its a standard inactivated virus dose
I'm afraid not.
Damn, the internet embarrasses me again, I read somewhere that due to its simple proven deactivation approach it was quicker.
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: syhprum on 30/09/2020 16:43:11
Has anyone an opinion about the Alpaca Nano fragment which I understand can be produced at low cost?
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: evan_au on 01/10/2020 09:28:44
Quote from: Syphrum
the Alpaca Nano fragment
This is an antibody therapy, rather than a vaccine.
- The alpaca/camel nano-antibodies are much smaller than human antibodies, and apparently can be produced by genetically-engineered bacteria.
- I heard today that a blinded trial of convalescent plasma (another antibody therapy) in India had shown no effect
        - Although they didn't screen the donors for the concentration or type of antibodies
        - A manufactured antibody would at least give consistent results

A vaccine encourages your body to continually produce its own antibodies (for perhaps months to years). It would ideally also program immune memory cells to be on the lookout for the virus.

Injected antibodies will bind to virus particles. But the antibodies will be flushed out of your body in perhaps 2 weeks, so antibodies will provide a much shorter-term protection than a vaccine.
- More seriously, if antibodies succeed in mopping up the virus, they may prevent your body from developing its own immunity to the virus
- But antibodies could be used for someone who is immune-compromised and can't be immunized with a live vaccine. If the patient is suspected to have been exposed to the virus, a dose of antibodies could be a useful prophylactic..

As a new therapy, the approval process for alpaca antibodies may be fairly long.

See, for example: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18174-5
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: evan_au on 01/10/2020 12:49:47
PS: Another criticism of the Indian trial of convalescent plasma is that it may have been given too late in the course of the disease to affect the outcome.
- People who need ICU care often have an immune overreaction
- If antibodies (like the alpaca antibodies) were given as soon as a patient had a positive diagnosis, then they could help control the infection, and avoid a subsequent immune overreaction.

By the time you are infected with the virus, it is too late to give a vaccine - it will take your body a few days to a few weeks to respond to the vaccine.
- But injected antibodies start working immediately
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: Edwina Lee on 04/10/2020 16:24:26
The chinese vaccine based on neutralised viruses are probably the best as the company had a head start in developing the SARS vaccine, and from that experience, they discovered that neutralised viruses are more effective and easy to store with a 3 year expiry date without the need for refrigeration.A New York Times article said that a temperature of -70(F or C?) is required to store the synthetic vaccines for up to 1 month.
However it is labour intensive because egg injections are required to cultivate the vaccine. (I don't know why).
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2020 22:37:33
I don't get why the country of origin matters?
Wouldn't you just choose the one which the data says is the most effective?
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: evan_au on 04/10/2020 23:21:53
Donald Trump has reportedly been treated with a mixture of mono-clonal antibodies (does this make it a "poly-clonal antibody"?). This is Regeneronís REGN-COV2 formulation. It's too late to give him a vaccine, and the antibodies are probably safer than convalescent plasma.

Notably absent from his treatment is his much-hyped hydroxychloroquine....

Quote from: Edwina Lee
a temperature of -70(F or C?) is required to store the synthetic vaccines for up to 1 month.
The "cold chain" of storage for vaccines is critical for vaccines to be effective.

Most vaccine fridges at your doctor or pharmacist are set for around 4C.
- One of the candidate vaccines is proposed to be distributed in "Dry Ice": solid carbon dioxide, at -76C
- Another RNA vaccine is proposed to be distributed in liquid nitrogen, at -196C
- For many remote areas of the world, it is a challenge to maintain 4C throughout the entire distribution chain...
- Another indication that "second generation" vaccines may be more practical than this first generation.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_chain#Uses

Quote
egg injections are required to cultivate the vaccine. (I don't know why)
The annual influenza vaccine is grown in chicken eggs - it is a well-practiced way of producing a flu vaccine, as influenza grows well in chicken eggs. The factory processes and equipment are already in place, as is a source of eggs (although it may interfere with production of this year's flu vaccine?)

It's unclear to me whether the coronavirus grows well in chicken eggs - I know coronavirus can infect humans, apes, cats and mink.
- Birds are fairly low in their similarity to human ACE2 receptor
- Perhaps the Chinese manufacturers have genetically engineered the chickens to express the human ACE2 receptor, so the coronavirus can grow better in the eggs? But it will take several years to grow a significant flock of genetically-engineered hens.

See: https://www.medicinenet.com/what_animals_can_get_and_spread_covid-19-news.htm
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: lucky33 on 08/10/2020 21:36:18
In general, I live without vaccines and I feel good. The human body can heal itself. What is needed is not a vaccine, but an increase in immunity!
Title: Re: Which country's covid-19 vaccine would you prefer if several are available?
Post by: Bored chemist on 08/10/2020 22:51:23
In general, I live without vaccines and I feel good. The human body can heal itself. What is needed is not a vaccine, but an increase in immunity!
That's a fine way to insult the  friends and families of the million or so  who have died from covid.
Would I me right in thinking that you have no qualifications in science?