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  4. Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
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Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #140 on: 19/06/2023 07:55:33 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 18/06/2023 17:22:55
You don't need superconductors to run into that problem.

An ordinary  magnet should be impossible for much the same reason.
In superconductor, we can observe the electric current making a macroscopic trajectory.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #141 on: 28/09/2023 11:10:28 »

This sun sparkling water looks like a quantization of sunlight, although each point should be much brighter than a single photon. I first realized this phenomenon during a flight above a sea, when the airplane is about to land.

Here's another one.
https://youtube.com/shorts/QCE9-DU0xDg?feature=shared

PS. this forum doesn't support youtube shorts preview, so you'll have to open the link in a new tab/window.
« Last Edit: 28/09/2023 11:14:25 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline Origin

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #142 on: 28/09/2023 12:40:06 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/09/2023 11:10:28
This sun sparkling water looks like a quantization of sunlight,
But of course it isn't really quantized.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #143 on: 28/09/2023 13:25:02 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/09/2023 11:10:28
This sun sparkling water looks like a quantization of sunlight, although each point should be much brighter than a single photon.
You can model the effect as multiple samples of a continuum. No evidence of or requirement for quantisation in the macroscopic observation. As the water waves are moving smoothly, any apparent reflection can also appear to move smoothly - there are no discrete vectors or forbidden transitions.   
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #144 on: 28/09/2023 14:27:23 »
What makes the sun reflection in the video below less sparkling?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #145 on: 28/09/2023 17:05:04 »
Different sun position.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #146 on: 29/09/2023 02:58:13 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 28/09/2023 17:05:04
Different sun position.
Do you mean reflection angle?

Let's compare it with some othr videos.




IMO, the sparkling reflections occur when the sky is clear, which makes stark contrast between the sun and the background. When the sky is cloudy, the contrast in brightness is reduced.
« Last Edit: 29/09/2023 03:00:35 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #147 on: 29/09/2023 12:21:44 »
"Point sparkles" obviously require a point source (or a rare event where the wavelets are all substantially concave) and the source must be behind the observer.

Diffuse source, or source in front of the observer, produces diffuse reflections in most cases.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #148 on: 29/09/2023 13:58:05 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 29/09/2023 12:21:44
"Point sparkles" obviously require a point source (or a rare event where the wavelets are all substantially concave) and the source must be behind the observer.

Diffuse source, or source in front of the observer, produces diffuse reflections in most cases.
Seen from the surface of the earth, the sun is not like a point source. It has a significant angular diameter. But somehow the sparkles seem like being quantized.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #149 on: 29/09/2023 19:21:49 »
Compared with the angle subtended at the observer's eye by the ocean, it is a point
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #150 on: 30/09/2023 04:07:09 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 29/09/2023 19:21:49
Compared with the angle subtended at the observer's eye by the ocean, it is a point
What do you mean? Is the angle close to zero?


Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtended_angle
In geometry, an angle is subtended by an arc, line segment or any other section of a curve when its two rays pass through the endpoints of that arc, line segment or curve section. Conversely, the arc, line segment or curve section confined within the rays of an angle is regarded as the corresponding subtension of that angle. It is also sometimes said that an arc is intercepted or enclosed by that angle.

The precise meaning varies with context. For example, one may speak of the angle subtended by an arc of a circle when the angle's vertex is the centre of the circle.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #151 on: 30/09/2023 14:26:59 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 29/09/2023 13:58:05
But somehow the sparkles seem like being quantized.
This is clearly not an example of quantization, perhaps you do not know what is meant by the term quantization?
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #152 on: 30/09/2023 23:53:34 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/09/2023 04:07:09
What do you mean? Is the angle close to zero?
The diameter of the sun is about 700,000 km, at a distance of about 140,000,000 km so it subtends an angle of about 0.3 degrees at the observer's eye. At 2 m height, the ocean horizon is about 5,000 m so it subtends an angle of about 89 degrees. That is the difference between "almost a point" and "almost a plane".
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #153 on: 03/10/2023 03:03:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 30/09/2023 23:53:34
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/09/2023 04:07:09
What do you mean? Is the angle close to zero?
The diameter of the sun is about 700,000 km, at a distance of about 140,000,000 km so it subtends an angle of about 0.3 degrees at the observer's eye. At 2 m height, the ocean horizon is about 5,000 m so it subtends an angle of about 89 degrees. That is the difference between "almost a point" and "almost a plane".
Let's compare that to the moon.



IMO, your explanation is still incomplete.
« Last Edit: 03/10/2023 03:37:49 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #154 on: 03/10/2023 08:54:19 »
You also need to consider the texture of the reflecting surface.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #155 on: 03/10/2023 11:11:05 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/10/2023 08:54:19
You also need to consider the texture of the reflecting surface.
Right. To produce sparkling, the water surface must not be flat. It can be modeled as combination of many convex and concave mirrors with various curvature. Those convex mirrors produce smaller images of the reflected object compared to flat mirrors. For observer further away than the focal point, concave mirrors also produce smaller images.

But these are not enough to explain the sparkling effect.
My hypothesis is that the sparkling effect is caused by the granular nature of the sensors, including digital cameras and human eyes. It can be tested by comparing the sun reflection on waving surface of water using cameras with different resolution, and camera obscura with different sizes.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #156 on: 03/10/2023 13:09:58 »
The third image in #153 shows both "sparkles" and "general glow", so nothing to do with the resolution of the imaging system.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #157 on: 03/10/2023 17:30:47 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/10/2023 11:11:05
But these are not enough to explain the sparkling effect.
I think it perfectly explains the effect. 
Do you now realize that the sparkling is not quantized?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #158 on: 04/10/2023 08:31:22 »
Quote from: Origin on 03/10/2023 17:30:47
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/10/2023 11:11:05
But these are not enough to explain the sparkling effect.
I think it perfectly explains the effect. 
Do you now realize that the sparkling is not quantized?
We know for sure that electronic sensors are spatially quantized, although it isn't necessarily true that every pixel has the same size or sensitivity.
Do you think it has no observable effect?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #159 on: 04/10/2023 10:14:25 »
Not at the level shown in your images. It was sometimes difficult to distinguish individual leaves on a whole tree photographed with a 56k camera but the blobs in your images are a lot bigger, and in any case the question is about quantisation of the radiation, not the image receptor!
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