[Simmer]

quote:Originally posted by thebrain13


This is what I assume. Time cant end, there can always be a next year, even if the earth explodes, the universe stops moving, all the energy is used up, there will always be a next thousand, million, billion, trillion on and on and on years. Time is infinite. So given that time is infinite, what are the chances that we exist at only this one specific point in time? I guess the equation would be our lifespan divided by infinity, in otherwords that chance is infinantly small, or that thought (which is assumed by everyone) is impossible........

...... eventually the right amounts of carbon nitrogen oxygen hydrogen etc will collect on earth, the sun will burn just hot enough and you will exist once again, even if it takes a trillion trillion trillion trillion years.

So thats how I know einstein, me, you, and george washington cant truely die. They existed once, and they will exist again......

Interesting argument but IMO it falls down by assuming too many infinites.  

I'm not sure whether time will end or not but I do think there is a finite amount of energy/matter in an expanding universe.  Therefore eventually, in fact quite soon by your timescales, there will be no suns and therefore no life as we know it (Jim).  

Probably no matter either in the 10^48 years you estimate this might take to come about, the half life of the atomic neutron is thought to be less than a trillionth of that! http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/proton.html

[thebrain13 (OP)]

To another someone, your analogy is not what im talking about. your assuming there are only two people one road and one car. If my truly identical people were viewing a road, they would both view a car coming from the left, and they would both view a car receading to the right. your distance 1 half mile between the two (identical men) were sitting would prove to be an important number. The guy to the right, would see a man, half a mile to the right of him as well. In fact he would (if he could) view an infinite amount of men spaced 1 half mile apart for eternity.

This analogy is much more accurate, picture a street where all the houses are identical, each house has the exact same view of each others neighbors.

And to simmer, to say I assume too many things are infinite, kind of defeats my entire point. There is absolutely nothing, I believe which is not infinite. You cant say, well time is infinite but energy is not, space may have a finite dimention, but the matter in it is limited, but.... no you cant pick and choose. I am saying absolutely nothing that exists today is finite, it has to be infinite, if it wasnt, why didnt it run out a long time ago?...... think about that

Wether or not the universe is expanding(right now) or not, I could not answer. But I know, that if you wait long enough the universe will inevitably become static.


For example if there was a big bang, a big crunch, a big bang, and over and over, each with equal magnitude. You could say that is ultimately static, for the universe wouldnt change, from the time period of each cycle to the next.

THE UNIVERSE IS NO FLUKE!

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by thebrain13
To another someone, your analogy is not what im talking about. your assuming there are only two people one road and one car. If my truly identical people were viewing a road, they would both view a car coming from the left, and they would both view a car receading to the right. your distance 1 half mile between the two (identical men) were sitting would prove to be an important number. The guy to the right, would see a man, half a mile to the right of him as well. In fact he would (if he could) view an infinite amount of men spaced 1 half mile apart for eternity.

This analogy is much more accurate, picture a street where all the houses are identical, each house has the exact same view of each others neighbors.

I was assuming that the street would have each house being identical.

What I was saying is that however far apart the two people are, there must be some point in between them that is equidistant from both of them, and for that point, there can not be an identical view that both observers have (if fact, even if the point is not equidistant between them, if that point exists on a line somewhere between the two observers, then the two observers cannot have the same view of that point).

I was not assuming that there are only two people, I am only assuming that there must be at least two people, and we can take as an example what those two people will see.  Whatever can be shown to be true for those two people, can be extrapolated to all the other people that may exist in our two worlds.

George

[bostjan]

When you die you stop living.  What makes you you is your genetics and your environment.  If another creature had the same genetics and environment as you, it would be you, and behave as you are right now.  But with no way to distinguish the time you exist from the other time you exist, they must be the same.  Thus, you live once and then you die, and that's the end of you.  Everything in the universe has to deal with it's finite nature and so do we, it's simple logic, really.  It's not unfortunate nor ugly.  It's a beautiful thing and it is very fortunate that we have this life to enjoy, so stop worrying about death, which is inevitable, and just have a good time with life, which you have now. []

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by bostjan
What makes you you is your genetics and your environment.  If another creature had the same genetics and environment as you, it would be you, and behave as you are right now.  But with no way to distinguish the time you exist from the other time you exist, they must be the same.  Thus, you live once and then you die, and that's the end of you.  Everything in the universe has to deal with it's finite nature and so do we, it's simple logic, really.  It's not unfortunate nor ugly.  It's a beautiful thing and it is very fortunate that we have this life to enjoy, so stop worrying about death, which is inevitable, and just have a good time with life, which you have now. []

But, as you say, a key part of what makes us is our environment, and a key part of our environment is made up of other human beings, so whether by the influence upon the genetics of others, or by influence upon the environment of others, our future influence does not wholly die with the death of our body.

But that is trailing off the subject.

George

[thebrain13 (OP)]

Another someone, if there was a point equidistant between two observers my universe. Only one could look at that specific point directly, unless somebody has eyes in the back of their head. All observers would be looking in the same direction at all times. If one of the observers is looking specifically at the point, and then continues to look a little farther, he would see the back of another mans head, if he could peer through his head, he would see another point the same distance away from the other man as it is from him. Every observer has the same view.

To Bostjan, I disagree that the universe is finite. And I assure you Im not worried about death, cause I know that cant happen. And I am trying to have a good time with this life, that way I dont mess it up for eternity.

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by thebrain13
Another someone, if there was a point equidistant between two observers my universe. Only one could look at that specific point directly, unless somebody has eyes in the back of their head. All observers would be looking in the same direction at all times. If one of the observers is looking specifically at the point, and then continues to look a little farther, he would see the back of another mans head, if he could peer through his head, he would see another point the same distance away from the other man as it is from him. Every observer has the same view.

You have very little imagination - what about mirrors (possibly half silvered mirrors), or video cameras, or lots of other devices that allow you to simultaneously be looking in one direction while also observing an image from the opposite direction.

George

[thebrain13 (OP)]

It doesnt matter. If I have a video camera looking behind me, than so does everyone else, so they all see the same thing.

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by thebrain13

It doesnt matter. If I have a video camera looking behind me, than so does everyone else, so they all see the same thing.

What you seem to be suggesting is that space is formed of a regular crystal like structure that has infinitely repeating patterns (i.e. if a second Earth exists at 1 trillion light years distance, then it exists in a regular repeating pattern of 1 trillion light year intervals, just as atoms in a crystal lattice will repeat themselves, and unlike an amorphous arrangement of atoms, let alone the random arrangement of atoms in a gas).

If such a large scale lattice structure were to exist, it would imply that there was some reason for such a lattice to be created (just as the forces between atoms will hold them in place within the lattice structure of a crystal).

George

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by thebrain13
Another someone, if there was a point equidistant between two observers my universe. Only one could look at that specific point directly, unless somebody has eyes in the back of their head. All observers would be looking in the same direction at all times. If one of the observers is looking specifically at the point, and then continues to look a little farther, he would see the back of another mans head, if he could peer through his head, he would see another point the same distance away from the other man as it is from him. Every observer has the same view.

You have very little imagination - what about mirrors (possibly half silvered mirrors), or video cameras, or lots of other devices that allow you to simultaneously be looking in one direction while also observing an image from the opposite direction.

George

[thebrain13 (OP)]

It doesnt matter. If I have a video camera looking behind me, than so does everyone else, so they all see the same thing.

[another_someone]

quote:Originally posted by thebrain13

It doesnt matter. If I have a video camera looking behind me, than so does everyone else, so they all see the same thing.

What you seem to be suggesting is that space is formed of a regular crystal like structure that has infinitely repeating patterns (i.e. if a second Earth exists at 1 trillion light years distance, then it exists in a regular repeating pattern of 1 trillion light year intervals, just as atoms in a crystal lattice will repeat themselves, and unlike an amorphous arrangement of atoms, let alone the random arrangement of atoms in a gas).

If such a large scale lattice structure were to exist, it would imply that there was some reason for such a lattice to be created (just as the forces between atoms will hold them in place within the lattice structure of a crystal).

George

[science_guy]

quote:There are two major views of creationism and death. There is the religous and the scientific. Religions answer is god created everything, and when you die you go to the afterlife. Sciences answer for creationism is the big bang, and their answer for death is the disturbing, rot for eternity, and well thats it. You shall be engulfed in nothingness for all time.

you seem to be dismissing this issue too easily with two extremes.  If you go to the website www.reasons.org, than you can see a new fact that supports God every day, using scientific observations and new discoverys.  Give the site a try and tell me what you think.

As for the big bang, that is also supported in old earth creationism. Argument:  if the universe has a beginning, than it must have a creator.  Who else is there for creating?

A view of the universe...  You could imagine the universe as a 3 dimensional surface on a 4 dimensional plane, just as we live on a 2 dimensional surface on a 3 dimensional plane of earth.  Time, space, matter, and energy are travelling outward as a ball being inflated.  All that is there is a shell surrounding nothing.  Make sense?

_________________________________________________________________________________________

I would engage you in a battle of wits, but it is against my moral code to attack the unarmed.

[nannham]

... Or, you could imagine the universe as a 3 dimensional ripple expanding in the 4th dimension of time, riding on an infinite membrane which is actually one of the boundaries enclosing a 5 dimensional space .... as hypothesized in Brane Theory, or M Theory ...

Imagine that the boundary got neatly smacked by another membrane which slowly over time just happened to drift toward it, and collided with it, and stuck ... and the two branes became our single universe instantly, and the resulting energy continued to ripple outward ...

This would explain the 'flat' geometry of space, the lumpiness having increased with time ... and still it all travels outward ... and would therefore have had a beginning ... and probably an end some trillions upon trillions of our years hence, when matter is stretched so far apart that there is virtually nothing left anywhere ...

... note that here I use the word 'stretch' ... as in the stretching of the membrane upon which the atoms of our universe are riding ...

[Quantumorigin7]

thebrain, PM me and we can have some really good conversations on this topic, you sound like a second Me, for crying out loud!!!

[Alan McDougall]

Perhaps it is comforting to know that everything that exists has always existed, only changing form.

Energy cannot be created it can only be used and changed

[Alan McDougall]

I have a lot of reading to do on posts in this forum, but I will catch up