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Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: thedoc on 17/08/2015 20:16:19

Title: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: thedoc on 17/08/2015 20:16:19
Robert Plomin at King’s College London has discovered that genetics
makes an unexpectedly large contribution to children's GCSE grades
Read a transcript of the interview by clicking here (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/interviews/interview/1001402/)

or [chapter podcast=1001136 track=15.08.14/Naked_Genetics_15.08.14_1003995.mp3](https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenakedscientists.com%2FHTML%2Ftypo3conf%2Fext%2Fnaksci_podcast%2Fgnome-settings-sound.gif&hash=f2b0d108dc173aeaa367f8db2e2171bd) Listen to it now[/chapter] or [download as MP3] (http://nakeddiscovery.com/downloads/split_individual/15.08.14/Naked_Genetics_15.08.14_1003995.mp3)
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 15/08/2015 18:43:43
I am reading, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer. I am sure that Reichs Propaganda Minister, Dr. Joseph Goebbels, would have eaten up this  ridiculous excuse for a scientific analysis with a spoon. I wouldn't be surprised if Oswald Mosley, Edward VII, and Nigel Farage admired it as well.

This  "analysis" fails to account for the fact that the twins were raised in the same environment. Does that maybe play a part? Ya think?

Let me tell you an anecdotal story...

The Hmong people left their late neolithic culture in Laos and came to live in Merced, California, where I was working at that time as a Public Health Nurse. I had much contact with them as a consequence. I can testify that for that first decade they had many cultural traits you would expect to find in the Laotian highlands and definitely not in Merced, California.

One way Merced differs from Laos is the Merced County Library. In the evening, every evening, you would find the library full of Hmong kids hitting their schoolbooks. I used to tell my teenage son that if he didn't crack his books instead of watching TV, he had best learn Hmong so that he could talk to his Hmong boss better.... My son now drives a truck in Oklahoma. The Hmong now have a bunch of professionals among those same erstwhile quasi neolithic kids.

Now did the Hmong bootstrap themselves into the modern 20th century because of Dr. Plomin's pathetic eugenics fairytale -- OR the efforts of the Merced County Department of Education?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/08/2015 22:19:24
I have no doubt that Goebbels would also have misunderstood the report.
Feel free to explain why the identical twins have test scores that are more similar than those of the fraternal twins without using genetics.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: evan_au on 16/08/2015 00:06:54
One interview with an author on the paper mentioned that difference in school could account for a 20% difference in grades.

So presumably some of the twins went to different schools, and there were enough of them attending different schools to tease out the impact of a difference in school on the exam results.

Of course, the alternative schools that twins may attend would probably have some common characteristics, such as similar geographic area, similar socioeconomic population, etc, which would disguise some of the influence of school selection (unless you specifically corrected for those factors).

Hopefully, they selected twins of all different ancestry backgrounds for the study, so that race would not have influenced the result.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 16/08/2015 02:23:40
Had this author been truly interested in doing a proper experimental design he would have restricted his sample to twins who had been SEPARATED AT BIRTH. Since that may be a small cohort in the UK, he could have gone international and identified FOREIGN cases. That would have removed the obvious cultural bias which ALSO  makes this study into such offensively racist twaddle. I have further doubts that the test sample is weighted to the same racial diversity as the UK population in the control sample. If, indeed, the "statistical" analysis was sophisticated enough to include a control group.

I am a foreign observer. That means that threads of racism, classism, and generally toffee -nosed baloney are glaringly apparent to me, whereas they appear to only invisibly exist in the 4th dimension to a large slice of your average British society. Too, I am continuously offended by the same shenanigans perpetrated in my own country by the cowards and weaklings of the Republican party - where the cops can too often gun down innocent minority people in the streets with impunity.

I can smell that stuff over in the next county.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/08/2015 09:46:00
I'm just going to capitalise a WORD at random here to show that I can do it too.

Your objection isn't totally invalid- a wider study would have been better- but it misses the point of the study (and of the question I asked).
The effect of culture, school, etc are the same for fraternal twins as they are for identical ones.
Yet the identical twins' results were more similar.
(You will note that a fairly well defined property of twins-especially of identical twins- is that they tend to be the same race.)
The paper never mentions race- nor does it says that any race is better than any other.

Now, why don't you climb down from your high horse and actually answer my  question.
Feel free to explain why the identical twins have test scores that are more similar than those of the fraternal twins without using genetics.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: evan_au on 16/08/2015 11:28:24
I don't think that there is anything wrong with doing twin studies - the problem is more with how some people will try to apply the results.

Some people will try to say that academic performance is genetic, therefore their particular ethnic group should look down on all other ethnic groups. (Those same people are unlikely to admit that because some Asian students perform really well, they should look up to Asians...) Some go to the opposite extreme, and deny that there are any differences between ethnic groups.

To take another sacred cow, there are genetic differences between men and women. This has been used to assert the superiority of one sex over the other, whether justified or not. Some claim that there are no differences between men and women, which is clearly counterfactual.

At this point in time, we are trying to determine what are the genetic differences between people; which differences are helpful, and which are harmful, and under what circumstances. We should value genetic diversity as a resource, because it provides a wide variety of capabilities and makes a population robust against unforeseeable circumstance.

If you pick almost any behavioral characteristic that is more than skin deep, you find that the differences within an ethnic group are bigger than the differences between the averages of different ethnic groups. So we need to consider a person's individual capabilities - and this is exactly the methodology of twin studies.

Teasing apart the influences of nature vs nurture is complex, and twin studies are an effective way of doing this, without necessarily going to the cost of doing a full genetic sequence for each of the twins (but I am sure this will come).

Quote from: Pecos_Bill
he [should] have restricted his sample to twins who had been SEPARATED AT BIRTH
It is important that twin studies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study) include individuals who grew up together as well as those who grew up separately, as that helps distinguish environmental factors which are due to a common environment vs a different environment. Without this, you might attribute environmental variables to genetics.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 16/08/2015 15:34:42
It  is all very well to say that the study should also include twins who were separated at birth. However, this study "accidentally" fails to do that - just as it "accidentally" fails to study across different cultures.

Why is that?

It appears obvious to me that this study "accidentally" gives fodder to people who want to keep people from the wrong race and/or wrong class from getting a fair seat at the British table. I am sure the authors did not intend that, but as Freud tells us, "There are no accidents".

If I occasionally lose my religion enough to resort to full capitals it is from exasperation with people who are "ACCIDENTALLY" too "OBTUSE" to see that.

Coming on the heels of the tory government's refusal to honor its promises of tuition relief and the consequent impact of those people being denied their education, I find the production of this "scientific analysis" unworthy of a gentleman -- to say the least.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2015 16:56:57
And, once again;[/size]Now, why don't you climb down from your high horse and actually answer my  question.Feel free to explain why the identical twins have test scores that are more similar than those of the fraternal twins without using genetics.Just because you don't understand the design of the study, that doesn't mean it is wrong. It means that the variables you are looking for are automatically  (almost entirely) corrected for.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2015 17:09:41
"To tease out the genetic contribution to children's school grades, the researchers studied GCSE scores of identical twins (who share 100% of their genes) and non-identical twins (who share on average half of the genes that normally vary between people). Both groups share their environments to a similar extent."

from
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/11/genetics-variation-exam-results1
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2015 17:20:50
And here's the actual article which I'm willing to be Bill didn't actually read.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0080341#s2

Now, Bill, can you please explain why the identical twins' scores were more similar than the fraternal twins' score?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 17/08/2015 17:24:22
The question of whether there is a genetic inheritance of intelligence -- or at least aptitude for dealing with the British classroom milieu -- to the extent that it depends upon intelligence or prosperity or the religion of one's parents -- is a serious one which deserves serious experimental design.

It does not deserve to have disingenuous white people throwing up red herrings about fraternal twins obfuscating the issue in an attempt to disguise the (un)conscious racial and class bias of the present paper.

In England it is not unheard of to have had some self-righteous government poobah remove children from their parents and send them to separate homes -- often in Australia. Therefore, it would not be difficult to find a sufficient cohort of separated at birth twins to draw statistically relevant inference to test the hypothesis either way - had the desire to be objective existed.

These "researchers" were obviously too chicken to face the possibility that they were wrong. Hence their conscious exclusion of "separated at birth" twins but inclusion  of fraternal twins to look more plausibly "scientific" to the other white Brits who share their inherent cultural bias.

If that gets your knickers in a knot, I apologize. However, " Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." [1.]

[1.] John Keats, "Ode on a Grecian Urn"
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/08/2015 20:05:29
"The question of whether there is a genetic inheritance of intelligence -- or at least aptitude for dealing with the British classroom milieu -- to the extent that it depends upon intelligence or prosperity or the religion of one's parents -- is a serious one which deserves serious experimental design."
Indeed, so suggesting a design that's impossible to produce is insulting to all those involved and to those of us here.
So, when you say this"Had this author been truly interested in doing a proper experimental design he would have restricted his sample to twins who had been SEPARATED AT BIRTH. " you are not only wrong (and showing off your ignorance) but detracting from the work that people have done.

Unless you can answer my question,
"explain why the identical twins have test scores that are more similar than those of the fraternal twins "
 it will be clear that  YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD THE STUDY.
THE EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN ADDRESSES THE ISSUES YOU RAISED: BUT YOU REFUSE TO LOOK PROPERLY AT IT.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 18/08/2015 06:56:51
As to the supercilious slur that I have not read this paper it is not so.

This paper's senior author is a psychologist with no formal training in molecular genetics. Moreover twin studies may show some insights into physical traits such as inherited stature. They are no more useful in studying complex multivariate outcomes - such as GCSE scores - than reading chicken guts. This study looked at only two(2) factors:gender and zygosity. Even a Psychologist - even a BRITISH psychologist - should realise how lame that "research design" is. It would make a Theosophist blush to propose such piffle.

Drop back ten paces and ask, "What is the use of this study in the first place?"

1. Does it provide insight into why students score in a given way? No
2. Does it provide a hinky argument for racist demagogues who want to discriminate against minority education? Yes

Therefore it advances human understanding not in the least and succors racists who want to keep British society a closed club for old white boys. Well done, you.


A person recalling the brutal history of British colonial practices should not be surprised to see certain British citizens arguing here that this paper is actual and bona fide science. That is, in fact, as mulishly British as anything George  III ever did..

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/08/2015 19:06:59
OK, so you read it, but didn't understand it.
[/size]Now, perhaps you would like to answer my question.
"explain why the identical twins have test scores that are more similar than those of the fraternal twins "
There's one other thing to check.

Do you understand that twins almost always have the same fathers?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 20/08/2015 00:28:51
Upon reflection, I am removing my original comments here.

The notion that character traits are somehow inherited is a centraL tenet of British society and this is, after all, a British forum.

My ancestors on both sides were people who could not stomach such notions - or their effect on non-members of the club.

On my father's side they sold themselves into indentured servitude in an unknown country to escape it. My maternal grandfather preferred life as a school janitor in LA to anything the Brits might allow a tailor in Edinburgh.

The thoughtful reader will see, therefore, that any idea that success in school is in any meaningful way a matter of inheritance. is, to me,  like a red flag to a Spanish fighting bull.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/08/2015 19:05:32
It really doesn't matter where you are from, or where the research was done does it?
My parents were both immigrants if you think that helps.

the point is that you can't actually answer the fundamental thing the research found.
The exam scores of the identical twins were more similar than the exam scores of the fraternal twins.

How do you think that happened?

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 20/08/2015 22:37:17
and MY point is that in British class ridden society the idea of inherited virtue is a sacred cow which is worshipped enough to make such an ephemeral idea as one's parents matter.

I was going to use the British Monarchy as a glaring example of how ridiculous inherited character is, but I stopped for fear of committing lese majeste among you people.

Today the GSCE  scores have been delivered. You feel that the inheritance of those recipients matters more to those scores  than a lousy pinch of sour rat crud.

I do not.

"Rich fellas come up an' they die, an' their kids ain't no good an' they die out. But we keep a'comin'. We're the people that live. They can't wipe us out; they can't lick us. We'll go on forever, Pa, 'cause we're the people. "

- Ma Joad, "The Grapes of Wrath"
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/08/2015 14:07:01
Do you accept the fact that there is an inherited trait measured by the exam scores?
Do you accept that the research measured the extent of that genetic effect?

I'm not asking if it's a good or bad thing and I'm not asking if it makes any difference in the world; I'm asking if you accept the truth.

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 22/08/2015 19:44:32
Until you have carried out a multiple regression study of a sufficiently large number of students you CANNOT  truthfully say that inheritance plays a role in school test scores.

This is the Naked Scientist forum and not the Naked poorly researched superstition forum after all.

It behooves me to repeat , therefore, that only a ninny or a Tory would be feckless enough to say one way or another based on two (count 'em, 2) whole factors alone.

In my own time I have seen "common knowledge" like "black people need higher X-ray exposure"  or "interracial marriage causes genetic defects" shown to be the inexcusably ignorant claptrap they are. This "research" carries the same stench as those.


For an example of that stench, why did this research include gender in studying school scores? They ignored everything else. One might almost believe they assumed that women inherit different academic aptitude than men. They are after all British -- from the same culture which totally ignored Rosalind Franklin's crucial contribution to the discovery of DNA structure.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/08/2015 13:58:38
That's silly for a number of reasons.
For a start re. "Until you have carried out a multiple regression study of a sufficiently large number of students you CANNOT  truthfully say that inheritance plays a role in school test scores."
They did do a regression analysis on a sufficiently large number of students, so that's sorted out.

As for this "only a ninny or a Tory would be feckless enough to say one way or another based on two (count 'em, 2) whole factors alone."

it's gibberish.

If I measured the heights and ages of a large bunch of school children I would find that there was a strong correlation.
I could produce a model that says  that the heights of children can be predicted (within a stated degree of inaccuracy) from their ages.
Obviously, there are other factors but those do not stop me being able to say that older kids are generally taller.
That's a model with just one factor and it's perfectly valid.
It obviously isn't perfect- it doesn't explain all the variability of heights- but it does show that ages and heights are related.
Why do you think that two factors are not enough for a model?

If I was looking for the effect of parental income on exam results then I'd need to know what that income was and I think we both agree that it would have an effect - probably quite a large one- but since that's not what this study was looking for, they didn't need to measure it.
The same goes for a whole bunch of other factors like culture because both twins (almost always) grow up in the same culture. So that culture does not affect the difference between their exam scores.

You can get perfectly valid data from measuring a single factor correlation.

Do you agree that I can say that older kids are generally taller, or do you think I have to take other factors into account?


Incidentally, I have asked a number of questions and you have refused to answer them.
Until you do so I'm going to keep repeating them so;
Feel free to explain why the identical twins have test scores that are more similar than those of the fraternal twins without using genetics.
Now, Bill, can you please explain why the identical twins' scores were more similar than the fraternal twins' score?
Do you understand that twins almost always have the same fathers?
It really doesn't matter where you are from, or where the research was done does it?
Do you accept the fact that there is an inherited trait measured by the exam scores?
Do you accept that the research measured the extent of that genetic effect?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 23/08/2015 19:02:43
If you can predict human performance based on inheritance, why can't you predict the winner in a soccer match by just consulting their family tree?

Go on, Bub, Arsenal vs. Liverpool. Check out the family trees and tell us. Currently a Liverpool win has 4/1 odds. So the bookies ought to figure the striker's Dad into that?


If human beings were race horses or merino sheep your tedious argument would make sense but they are not.

That is a basic fact of human nature that eludes you. That is a basic fact that eluded the Nazi party and led to their ruin and destruction.

The true nature all of your arguments about the impact of inheritance or whether fraternal twins count for anything is shown in the picture that I am adding below. That's what "inheritance" did to Dresden.


Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/08/2015 20:56:56
OK, so that's another strawman
If you can predict human performance based on inheritance, ...
Nobody did say that though=- so your comment is meaningless.

What you are failing to understand is that research into the nature of inheritance isn't what gave rise to things like eugenics.
They were around before anyone invented the word "gene" or had any sensible understanding of inheritance. Nobody ever needed science in order to be a bigot.

On the other hand, proper research into heritability is what gives us the scientific ammunition to shoot down the evil bigots who seek to claim that they are "better" than others- simply on the basis of country of birth or skin colour.

Why are you attacking the research that undermines  all those things we both plainly detest?

And, once again:
Feel free to explain why the identical twins have test scores that are more similar than those of the fraternal twins without using genetics.
Now, Bill, can you please explain why the identical twins' scores were more similar than the fraternal twins' score?
Do you understand that twins almost always have the same fathers?
It really doesn't matter where you are from, or where the research was done does it?
Do you accept the fact that there is an inherited trait measured by the exam scores?
Do you accept that the research measured the extent of that genetic effect?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 25/08/2015 21:49:25
This issue has been more than adequately addressed at this point. for anybody who lacks your cultural indoctrination.

You are, after all, a product of your culture -- subject to its limits. Hence your fascination with fraternal twins, and the importance of one's forbearers in determining one's path thru this life.

But that isn't American. It isn't even Russian.

It is, in fact,  British.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 25/08/2015 22:05:47
No.
the issue has not been addressed.
It's a very simple question, I have asked it repeatedly and you have not addressed it.

Why is there a bigger gap between the scores of the fraternal twins than between the identical twins?

And, in case you hadn't spotted it; it's not that I'm fascinated by fraternal twins it's just that the study is about twins (fraternal and identical) an you keep trying to ignore that.

So are you just going to run away and hide, or are you actually going to face the fact; there is a genetic component to GCSE scores?
Are you going to be brave enough to admit that you are wrong, or do we expect a whole lot more nonsensical straw men?

Did you, in fact, come here to discuss science or to preach?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 26/08/2015 05:16:52
You fight with the strength of many men, Sir knight....


Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 26/08/2015 09:07:32
If there were no genetic component in academic or athletic achievement, we would see the "whole population" distribution of extreme genetic anomalies reflected at all levels of every profession. But we don't.

We know from "experiment" and accident that genetic damage by irradiation in utero can depress IQ, and we even have numerical values for the critical stage of development and the dose/damage ratio.

The only remarkable aspect of this study seems to be its statistical sensitivity, apparently sufficient to distinguish between fraternal and identical twins, and thus discriminating between nature and nurture in otherwise "normal" kids.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 26/08/2015 18:25:21
Some people believe that a person's divine spark of humanity is determined to some extent by their genetic makeup. Those are the people T.S. Elliot was describing in his poem, "The Hollow Men" (1.)

Some people do not.

Francis Galton showed that genetics could play a role in a person's stature and other physical traits.

To extend that idea to a person's GCSE scores - which is to say their character - is what we in the Army Medical Corps used to call an, "Unwarranted Assumption".

This is the Physiology & Medicine forum. Unwarranted Assumptions pollute the history of medicine to this day and have caused more death and human misery than the damned atom bomb.


(1.)  http://allpoetry.com/The-Hollow-Men
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/08/2015 19:27:55

Francis Galton showed that genetics could play a role in a person's stature and other physical traits.

To extend that idea to a person's GCSE scores - which is to say their character - is what we in the Army Medical Corps used to call an, "Unwarranted Assumption".

This is the Physiology & Medicine forum. Unwarranted Assumptions pollute the history of medicine to this day and have caused more death and human misery than the damned atom bomb.

But, once again, you are straw manning.
It's not an assumption; it's an observation based on a lot of data.

So, how do you explain the data?
Why are the two groups different?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 26/08/2015 20:05:03
This is exactly what Elliot was talking about in that poem.

Your obsession with this inconsequential point -- in the face of the larger question of what constitutes humanity -- is in direct consequence of your "hollowness". You are a child of modern culture and so you think that this thing matters in even the slightest way to describing anything human.

Sit there in the midst of this wasteland you inhabit and keep telling yourself that you have some valuable insight into the nature of humanity because fraternal twins score differently than identical ones.

Much good may it do you.

And now I will cease from this tedious and useless effort to explain reality to any of Britain's  hollow men.

Who am I to blow against the wind?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/08/2015 21:45:28
I have never said that the effect matters; just that it exists.
So, that's yet another straw man.

And this "And now I will cease from this tedious and useless effort to explain reality to any of Britain's  hollow men."
is a slur against the whole nation.
Would you like to apologise for it?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/08/2015 21:49:24
Incidentally, did you not notice that not all of these people who you mentioned
"..., Dr. Joseph Goebbels, ...."
are Brits- even though you assert that they would have believed the effect of genetics on  exam scores was important.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 26/08/2015 23:33:24
T. S. Elliot was awarded the Nobel Prize in literature for his poetry in 1948. (1.)

Perhaps you think (if, indeed, you have ever read the poem) that he wasn't talking about Britain, but really the Watutsi instead. I will apologize after Elliot does.

They DO still include the humanities in a British University - the better to avoid  turning barbarian technicians loose on the streets as "scientists" , don't they?




(1.) http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1948/
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 27/08/2015 00:47:47

To extend that idea to a person's GCSE scores - which is to say their character - is what we in the Army Medical Corps used to call an, "Unwarranted Assumption".

Wrong. GCSE scores are a measure of academic achievement to date (they used to be simply one-time written exam scores, which are a far "cleaner" measure, but now include coursework and teacher assessments, so are less valid measures of individual academic capability, but sometimes you just have to use dirty data, which is why twin studies are essential) and have nothing to do with "character".

Quote
Unwarranted Assumptions pollute the history of medicine to this day and have caused more death and human misery than the damned atom bomb.

Agreed, but irrelevant here. AFAIK nobody has made any assumptions, but has simply pointed out that nature and nurture can be disentangled.

It is a reasonable and testable hypothesis that genetics and academic ability may be correlated, but since the variates are hugely complicated in the case of genetics, poorly specified in the case of academic ability, and both shrouded in the noise of nurture and circumstance, the best you can do is to show a historic statistical correlation for a very small and special set of people, which is what has been done here. Generalising from a special set, or particularising from a statistical inference, would be not merely unwarranted but potentially disastrous, but the potential misuse of a finding does not invalidate the finding itself. 

To go back a few posts
Quote
If you can predict human performance based on inheritance, why can't you predict the winner in a soccer match by just consulting their family tree?

(a) the paper under discussion says nothing about prediction, but (b) people who know about such things do spend a lot of effort to establish the pedigree of a horse, cow or dog if they hope to make serious money out of it. 
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 27/08/2015 01:41:25
In the Britain of 2025 if this publish-or-perish twaddle is remembered at all it will be in some obscure bits in some archive -- cited by nobody.

However in that 2025 Britain what will have become of Elliot's  "hollow men" ?

Will the wild card outliers who don't show up in this "scientific" study have eaten up all their lunch?

If that happens, will the yeomen of England complain that it is all just a cruel trick of nature because the fraternal twins scored differently?

You better believe it, GI.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 27/08/2015 12:00:05
Not a great fan of Eliot - I have nothing against Americans (I live with the cream of the crop)  and The Journey of the Magi is at least a good poem, but I dislike his politics and religion. As an apparent fan, however, you might be interested in the first Eliot quotation cited by Google:

We shall not cease from exploration. And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.


So what do we have here? We know that for the most part, racehorses breed racehorses rather than carthorses, collies and crows are better problem-solvers than bulldogs and chickens, and bright parents have bright kids, so we are indeed back where we started. The unique contribution of this study is to separate nature from nurture in the specific case of academic exam results, and to show that nature does indeed have a measurable role.

We also know, from general observation, that genetics is a lottery, which is why we have public examinations and vocational tests rather than assume that the daughter of an astronaut will be a suitable astronaut.

You made an earlier point about a hereditary monarchy. Quite a different matter. The two words that strike terror in the heart of British republicans are "President Blair" - rather as mention of "George W" makes Americans hang their heads in shame (and also proves that an intelligent and statesmanlike father can indeed produce a clutch of corrupt idiots - there are lots of losers in the genetics game). What we do over here is to ensure that the figurehead of state is (a) chosen by nonpolitical means (b) financially independent of banks, oil companies and others who might prosper from a war or unethical banking practices (c) educated and trained from birth at public expense to do the job properly and (d) served some time in uniform. The system seems to have worked pretty well since Cromwell's time and is widely adopted throughout Europe: given the choice, inhabitants of the Low Countries, Scandinavia and post-restoration Spain all voted for a constitutional monarchy rather than rule by Quisling, Franco, et al.

Have the Americans "gone too far"? Well I could point out that the murder rate in Canada, with an absentee monarch as head of state, is a lot lower than in the USA, but that would be punching below the belt, and completely irrelevant to the present argument.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 27/08/2015 17:41:56
That's all very well, but the question remains.

Was this paper written to retain tenure in the "scientific" field of genetic psychology (that's what it calls itself ) or to help build Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land?

I suddenly have a mental image of Governor Lepetomane...

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 28/08/2015 08:17:47
We of the chosen have already built Jerusalem in Europe, England, the USA, and most recently, Jerusalem for the second time. So to turn to your alternate hypothesis: after serving a dozen years on research ethics committees and a lifetime in laboratories and hospitals, I have grave doubts about the purpose and quality of most "academic research". Practically every paper in my own field (radiation protection and medical imaging) simply restates that photons travel in straight lines until they are absorbed by atoms, and "qualitative research" on the "lived experience" of car thieves, lefthanded lesbians, or whatever today's oppressed minority happens to be, is just a matter of transcribing a tape recording and nonjudgementally extracting a common theme from four interviews.

Whilst the present object of discussion does contain some decidedly vague statements of possible fraud (how can you "correct" exam results for "intelligence" if (a) you haven't independently measured intelligence and (b) the GCSE, at least in STEM subjects,  is supposed to test the candidate's ability to use information - isn't that the definition of intelligence?) it does at least outline the only way to distinguish nature from nurture, by comparing identical and fraternal twins. But

http://www.twinsuk.co.uk/twinstips/18/144/multiple-birth-statistics,-facts-&-trivia/having-twins-or-triplets---interesting-&-fun-facts/ 

worries me! Apparently Nigerian mothers produce far more twins than average, and Chinese mothers, far fewer. Now British society includes significant numbers of first and second generation Nigerians and Chinese, probably with quite different cultural norms, so the statistics may have all sorts of hidden nurture bias that is tightly correlated with nature effects. But the occurence of twins may itself be affected by maternal diet, which is more likely to regress to a norm in a heterogeneous urban society....

Allowing for all those faults and unknowns, I think the finding still stands: identical twins score closer than fraternal twins, so there is some genetic component in GCSE scores. But there is no indication as to what it is, or what it does. 

In short, I think the paper is brilliant, informative, and useless.   
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 28/08/2015 16:52:17
It wasn't useless.

It put bread on the authors' table.

If this is Jerusalem you couldn't tell it from BBC 3

In Alfred Bester's "The Stars my Destination" we read of a cargo cult of savages in the asteroid belt. They are the descendants of space pioneers who now call themselves the "Scientific People".

I can imagine stuff like this paper among their most sacred texts.


Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/08/2015 12:39:55
T. S. Elliot was awarded the Nobel Prize in literature for his poetry in 1948. (1.)

Perhaps you think (if, indeed, you have ever read the poem) that he wasn't talking about Britain, but really the Watutsi instead. I will apologize after Elliot does.

They DO still include the humanities in a British University - the better to avoid  turning barbarian technicians loose on the streets as "scientists" , don't they?




(1.) http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1948/
Yet another straw man.
It was you that mentioned Goebells and you that said the traits he exhibited are typically British.
Nobody except you had, at that point, mentioned Elliot.
 
And you might want to grow out of insulting Britain ant its institutions;
this sort of thing
"They DO still include the humanities in a British University - the better to avoid  turning barbarian technicians loose on the streets as "scientists" , don't they?"
 doesn't make you look clever.

Also, you said you had read the paper which clearly states its objective.
"The purpose of the present study was to investigate the extent to which the remarkably high heritabilities for educational achievement in the UK persist to the end of compulsory education. "
And yet you ask "Was this paper written to retain tenure in the "scientific" field of genetic psychology (that's what it calls itself ) or to help build Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land?"
Well, why ask such a silly question when someone has already told you the answer.

So, may I invite you to stop insulting people, stop citing irrelevant Nobel prizes, and answer the question.
Why are the identical twins' scores more similar than those of fraternal twins?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 29/08/2015 17:14:06
As to the fraternal twins red herring, in any analysis one is free to throw out non-germane outliers. As much as you may claim that is a weakness , I have done so in my own good right. Let the readers decide as is <<their>> own good right.

As to your assertion that my quote of T.S. Elliot constitutes a personal slur to you and Merrie Olde England --- would you like me to write you a note to the Chaplain?

This is a forum - an idea derived from the forum in Athens. People come here and debate issues and the other people observe and come to their own conclusions. That is what both you and  I have done. Did you really imagine that I have continued this thread to effect <<your>> opinion?

You are welcome to report me to the British thought police if you think my ideas constitute disorderly conduct or sedition.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/08/2015 19:37:22
The stats show that the effect is not an outlier. An dth e difference between the two sorts of twins is the essence of the study so it's just plain silly to suggest throwing it out.
this is yet another strawman
"As to your assertion that my quote of T.S. Elliot constitutes a personal slur to you and Merrie Olde England --"
Nobody said that.

This is indeed a forum (though I think you will find the word is Latin, rather than Greek).
And the forum was a place to discuss things, not to preach.
So, you not only have to put forward your point of view, you have to defend it.
in particular, you must answer criticisms of your point of view.

I have given you plenty of opportunities to address the criticism that your point of view simply doesn't explain the facts.
you have not done so.
I presume that is because you can't.
you are unable to meaningfully explain away the actual data  without accepting that it is really due to a genetic component to exam scores.
You can't face the truth so you keep posting nonsense about poets, and pointless straw men.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 29/08/2015 21:04:24
I think that is, perhaps, the 14th time you have repeated that. Maybe you could try rhyming it next time.

The rest of the world and I will try to soldier on despite our inability to perceive the value of this very, very British example of "science".

For example  this "scientific" article was self published in "PLOS ONE" [1.] which advertises itself as, "PLOS ONE takes the hard work out of publishing. There's no stress waiting to find out if your article meets subjective acceptance criteria." Yep, that's some powerful scientific stuff they do there in Britain, alright, Bub.

My apology for any disrespect. We benighted colonials often find it difficult to maintain a straight face -to say nothing of a properly reverent demeanor - when confronted with supercilious British wisdom.

[1.] http://www.plosone.org/static/publish
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 30/08/2015 00:10:01
You will be pleased to know that BBC3 is under threat of closure. Auntie has slowly realised that the sort of crap that appeals to people who make TV programs, doesn't always appeal to the people who watch them - at least not to the extent of justifying innumerable repeats. Thankfully, BBC4 is not yet under the cosh.

By all means poke fun at British institutions. We are quite used to it , just as we have come to acceopt the American habit of turning up late (1917, 1942...) and claiming all the credit. But what is your real problem? Regardless of where or how this paper was published, it argues that if there is a hereditable element to exam performance, it can be distinguished from environmental factors by studying twins. Surely that makes sense? The only question is whether the statistical analysis in this instance was sufficient to demonstrate a real effect. If you think their statistics was weak, wouldn't it be a good idea to point out the flaws? 

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 30/08/2015 09:36:13
Since you yourself opened the matter and at the risk of inciting petulant shrieks of outrage, I will point out that given the obvious mental defects of Asquith, Lloyd-George and Clemenceau, it is quite understandable that the United States declined to drink the kool-aid until Germany went to sinking our ships.

It is unfortunate that Britain refused to consider a decent and sensible negotiated peace. Nor was it auspicious that-- after American boys had shed their blood at the 2nd Marne -- Britain told President Wilson to take the 14 points and blow them out his nose. That reverberated in 1939 as the Sikes-Picot treaty reverberates today. I mention this only to mitigate and explain American "bad manners" when exposed to some hoity-toity British smarty pants. Present company excepted.

_______

As to the case in point. These twins were all raised in the <<same>> households. I don't see how anyone can truthfully say that this even begins to distinguish between the effects of inheritance and environment. I pointed that out repeatedly at the beginning of this thread, but the point was drowned out by the constant clamor about "fraternal twins".

It is clear to me that this study is worthless because it did not study separated-at-birth twins -- but then I am American and lack the congenital British devotion to matters of inheritance.

As a matter of fact the question of nature versus nurture was treated at length in the novel "Pudd'nhead Wilson" by Mark Twain in 1894. Until you do a study on separated twins exclusively, Mr. Samuel Clemons is as valid an authority on this question as any Brit who ever lived.

Finally, BBC 3 has some good stuff mixed in with the schlock. Stacey Dooley does some interesting stuff and watching Bad Education is one of my guilty pleasures.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/08/2015 11:44:45
I think that is, perhaps, the 14th time you have repeated that. Maybe you could try rhyming it next time.

The rest of the world and I will try to soldier on despite our inability to perceive the value of this very, very British example of "science".

For example  this "scientific" article was self published in "PLOS ONE" [1.] which advertises itself as, "PLOS ONE takes the hard work out of publishing. There's no stress waiting to find out if your article meets subjective acceptance criteria." Yep, that's some powerful scientific stuff they do there in Britain, alright, Bub.

My apology for any disrespect. We benighted colonials often find it difficult to maintain a straight face -to say nothing of a properly reverent demeanor - when confronted with supercilious British wisdom.

[1.] http://www.plosone.org/static/publish
Rather than counting how many times you have failed to address a point, why not answer it?

Re Plos one; your comments are on a web page that has a similar publishing strategy.
Did you think you had made a point?
Stop trying to attack the messenger and address the actual point.
Re
"It is unfortunate that Britain refused to consider a decent and sensible negotiated peace."
Make up your mind.
Do you really think that Britain should have negotiated a peace deal with the government that included the man you cited as a villain in your opening post?

Re. "Until you do a study on separated twins exclusively"
Is it that you are unable, or unwilling to understand that you don't need to separate the rwins for this sort of study and in fact it would make it a less sensitive test if you did?

"Mr. Samuel Clemons is" a typing error- which leads me to wonder how much thought you are really putting into this.
Perhaps if you got the spelling right you might have found stuff like this
"Mark Twain can easily be labeled as a great Anglophile.  His love for English culture and country began with his first trip in 1872 and continued for the rest of his life.  Twain approved of British culture because he found the stereotypes associated with the English appealing.  This was partly because of how they contrasted with American culture, and also because he enjoyed the company and the ways of the English upper-class, who took him under their wing.  He also fell in love with the English countryside, writing in one of his short stories that, “England is the most beautiful of all countries.” As a man who loved history and tradition, in England he found a country rich in both.  Upon returning from his first visit, he continually praised the English and their ways in public. He even wrote the article “British Benevolence” for the Tribune, advocating for Americans to develop an establishment akin to the London Humane Society. Between the beautiful countryside, impressing establishments and traditions, and his embracement by the upper-class, Twain felt he belonged in England."
from
http://users.dickinson.edu/~wronski/dickenstwain/twain.html

But what a dead man thought of England over 100 years ago is hardly relevant

So, let's try again.
As you say
"As to the case in point. These twins were all raised in the <<same>> households. I don't see how anyone can truthfully say that this even begins to distinguish between the effects of inheritance and environment."

OK, I'm sure that we agree that their environment will be very similar.
And that would explain part of the reason why twins typically get similar exam scores.

Have you understood that bit?

OK now identical twins are also "all raised in the <<same>> households.".
And that should explain why identical twins also typically get similar exam scores.

Does that also make sense to you?

OK, now we move on to the actual point of the research.

The differences in exam scores between pairs of identical twins is significantly smaller than the difference in exam scores between pairs of non identical twins.

Now, as you already pointed out- it can't be due to environment because twins (identical or not) are raised in very similar environments.

So the difference must be due to something else.
In particular, it must be due to the only difference between the two sorts of twins.
One set are genetically identical and the other set are not genetically identical.

That difference, whether you like it or not, is genetics.

Now someone has explained the basis of the research, do you understand why twins separated at birth wouldn't have helped in this study?
It's because they were not separated that we can use their nigh identical upbringing as a means to cancel out most of the environmental factors and look at just the genetics.

It's actually a very clever piece of research.
And it's a pity that you have repeatedly shown that you either didn't read it, or you didn't understand it before you tried to rubbish it.



Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 30/08/2015 18:44:45
In the real world - outside of Britain - people see that by not using twins who have been separated at birth these authors produced a bed-time story for smug white British gentlemen. This "scientific" paper got more coverage in the Daily Mail than any academic notice. That was no accident, Bub


We read books like "The Guns of August" by Barbara Tuchman about how Britain so obviously bit the big one in 1914. We read books like "Mr. American" by George MacDonald Fraser in which Fraser- in the last few pages - discusses why staying out of the war would have led to a limited conflict with a negotiated settlement. We see how just a tiny iota of British common sense could have avoided such hideous knock on catastrophes and we ask ourselves, "Why couldn't the Brits have seen the whole picture?"

I cannot explain your failure to concede that my opinion may have some validity, but I can certainly see from it how it was that Britain eviscerated itself in 1914.

We see that same phenomenon enacted  today as Britain bemoans a shortage of skilled labor on the one hand while talking about sending troops to Calais on the other.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/08/2015 20:16:13
Well, if you still think that "by not using twins who have been separated at birth these authors produced a bed-time story " you have still not understood the research.

And, of course, the science has nothing to do with "being British" so, in banging on about that you simply look foolish.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 30/08/2015 21:44:32
Caveat Lector:  Never discuss an issue of science which concerns something that has wide coverage in the Daily Mail with a certain type of Englishman.

Here is a story on today's Daily Mail online  front page, "A flooded office, plummeting temperatures and documents mysteriously moving: Terrified workers fear that ghost of an old lady is haunting them after 'face' appears at the window".

What should you do if you accidentally encounter a Daily Mail reader in conversation? In the old days people once used a topical mixture of sulfur and petroleum jelly for relief. Nowadays one might use a Lindane shampoo. One can also get good prevention by using outer clothing impregnated with Pyrethins.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 30/08/2015 21:47:36
Why does the finding that identical twins are more alike than fraternal twins appeal specifically to smug white British gentlemen? I would have thought it to be a common assumption among all people and fairly widely tested, at least anecdotally, by educators around the world. And given the anomalous incidence of twins in Nigeria, I would have thought the phenomenon would have been observed more often there than here.

Plomin, Piaget, et numerous al, had I thought pretty well put the subject to bed for ever during the last 100 years, so the finding isn't particularly surprising, but the study is remarkable in using public examination results to achieve more statistical power, with fewer ethical or procedural pitfalls, than any antecedent "laboratory" tests were able to do.   

If there is any matter of consequence from this study,  http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20051117/iq-scores-different-for-twins suggests a downside:the IQ of twins (at least in Aberdeen) was significantly lower than that of singleton births in the same family.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 30/08/2015 22:26:49
Informed skepticism is the essence of the scientific method. 

Whenever I encounter someone trying to sell a concept as a sure thing, I remember the second Durand vs. Leonard match.  Durand had beaten Leonard so badly that all my friends urged me to bet big on Durand to "make a fortune". I, however, remembered the wise teaching of my Uncle Bodie that, "Nobody ever made a dime on a sure thing yet."

When Durand took two punches in the 1st round, then raised his hands and cried, "¡ No mas ! ¡No mas !", I knew that Uncle Bodie had saved me from ruin once again.

How very, very British to hear these people assuring me of the absolute truth of this "smug white man's bedtime story" as if it had been handed down by the archangel Gabriel - not some "genetic psychologist"

To paraphrase Rutherford there is real science and then there is genetic psychology and stamp collecting.

When I was growing up I heard Fred Hoyle assuring the world that the universe was steady-state with typical British fervor. Just like the fervor of you people - but you have far less hard evidence. Is that not so?

Once upon a time in Britain, who one's parents were greatly determined your school scores and, thus, your station in life.

Yeah, Riiiight.

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 31/08/2015 00:23:34

Once upon a time in Britain, who one's parents were greatly determined your school scores and, thus, your station in life.


Still pretty much the case, as everywhere else, but now we know that there is a genetic as well as an environmental component. It's embarrassing for the government because you can't tax genes (not that the wealthy pay inheritance taxes anyway: they are a sop to the Left and a worry to the middle classes). 

And in Britain we don't hide behind a pretence of democracy or meritocracy: instead of rigged presidential "elections" where one candidate's brother counts the votes, we just have a hereditary monarch and an unelected president in Downing Street.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 31/08/2015 00:56:00
Behold, the dreamer cometh.

It is NOT the case that everywhere else is similar to class-ridden British life. America is - and always has been - a refuge for people who couldn't stomach the sort of society that generates (and celebrates) insufferable British boors like Jeremy Clarkson.

In America, many unfair things have taken place. HOWEVER, Until recently -- as some gullible people have come to admire Britain for things like Princess Diana or the Beatles - we don't applaud or embrace them (as you seem to) as the proper and natural way of conducting affairs.


This thread has been quite illuminating to me.

I have always been struck by the paradox that Thomas More - the enlightened English author of "Utopia" - had repeatedly condemned people to hideous torture for things like wanting to read the Bible in English.

I am grateful, therefore, to have witnessed these examples of contemporary English reasoning. It throws much light on the Thomas More paradox.

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/08/2015 09:54:55
Caveat Lector:  Never discuss an issue of science which concerns something that has wide coverage in the Daily Mail with a certain type of Englishman.

Here is a story on today's Daily Mail online  front page, "A flooded office, plummeting temperatures and documents mysteriously moving: Terrified workers fear that ghost of an old lady is haunting them after 'face' appears at the window".

What should you do if you accidentally encounter a Daily Mail reader in conversation? In the old days people once used a topical mixture of sulfur and petroleum jelly for relief. Nowadays one might use a Lindane shampoo. One can also get good prevention by using outer clothing impregnated with Pyrethins.

So, once again you stick to not actually answering the point, but choose to attack the medium - not even the medium through which it was delivered- but one that subsequently took an interest.

I take you that you are unable to attack the science itself because you realise it's factually correct, no matter how distasteful that may be.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/08/2015 10:05:14
Informed skepticism is the essence of the scientific method. 

How very, very British to hear these people assuring me of the absolute truth of this "smug white man's bedtime story" as if it had been handed down by the archangel Gabriel - not some "genetic psychologist"

It is indeed true that "Informed scepticism is the essence of the scientific method. " and the key word there is "informed"
Since you have already made it clear that you don't understand the bassi of this research your views don't count as "informed" in any useful way.

The conclusion isn't handed down from Gabriel- it came out of an examination of the data.

So far you have shown that
1 you don't understand how they used that data and
2 you are unable to actually show any problems in their method.

All you have done is string together a bunch of  strawmen and racist nonsense about "smug white men".

You seem to have become the thing you despise.

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 31/08/2015 12:34:15

It is NOT the case that everywhere else is similar to class-ridden British life. America is - and always has been - a refuge for people who couldn't stomach the sort of society that generates (and celebrates) insufferable British boors like Jeremy Clarkson.


Admittedly it takes time to establish a ruling class and an underclass, but one must give the colonials credit for being fairly energetic in this respect. Names like Kennedy, Bush and Clinton seem to convey an automatic right to the taxpayer's money, and the mass purchase and importation of Africans between 1500 and 1860 not only created a new underclass (the natives having been effectively wiped out by violence, drugs and disease) but even (1654, Virginia) subdivided the underclass by allowing blacks to own slaves. 

As for JC, it is an undisputed fact that Top Gear was the BBC's most profitable export to the USA, putting even class-ridden crap like Downton Abbey into the shade.  It seems that some Americans quite like irony and self mockery, but perhaps this level of comedic sophistication hasn't migrated west of the Pecos yet, despite Judge Roy Bean's exemplary protoclarksonism.

As for insufferable boors, the Mayflower carried exactly that class of passenger

Quote
The Pilgrim Fathers saw little chance of England becoming a country in which they wished to live. They viewed it as un-Godly and moving from a bad to worse state......

....."The place they thought of was one of those vast and unpeopled countries of America, which are fruitful and fit for living. There are only savages and brutish men, just like wild beasts."

I could go on, but we are drifting away from the point here. It seems from experiment that examination results show a genetic correlation that can be distinguished from environmental effects. If you have evidence to the contrary, let's hear it.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 31/08/2015 17:45:42
NOBODY in America would have touched this "scientific" study with a 10 foot pole because of its obvious racist and sexist nature. The fact that you people prefer to pretend that those faults don't exist, damns your case irretrievably.

America, you see, struggles against racism and sexism and doesn't enshrine them as scientific truth....even in Texas. So, yes, America isn't Britain.....Sir.


It is difficult to admit it, but you may, in fact, be correct. Intelligence may actually be largely inherited  We shall have to see if Prince William has inherited  the keen intelligence and, perhaps, integrity  of Prince Charles.

I shall continue to believe that this is not so - at least until I see a study that includes separated twins and DOESN'T presume that women are of different intelligence. Tell me again why it was "scientific" to treat women separately. As a benighted colonial the subtleties of "Genetic Psychology" elude my grasp.

And also I will wait until there is a "scientific" article that doesn't rate a screamer on the front page of the Daily Mail.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 01/09/2015 00:06:48
Quote
It should be noted that regressing out the mean effects of sex from GCSE scores has no bearing on these analyses, which are concerned with the aetiology of variance within the sexes and covariance between the sexes, rather than the phenotypic mean difference between the sexes

Because this is science, not politics, it is important to remember that there is a known difference between GCSE scores for boys and girls.
Quote
Mean sex differences can be seen for English, with girls scoring about one-third of a standard deviation higher than boys, and for mathematics, with boys scoring about one-tenth of a standard deviation higher than girls. No significant mean sex differences were found for science.
This has been observed consistently for years and whatever its cause, it was important to exclude it by means of the statistical analysis, which the authors did.

There was no mention or suggestion of any sex difference in intelligence.

Last time I was in the States, (about 6 months ago) they still had upright urinals in the men's restrooms. I suspect your countrymen are less worried about sexism than you seem to be.

I  haven't spotted the racism in the paper. Perhaps you could point it out. As we never had racially segregated education in the UK (at least not within living memory), it would be rather difficult to measure anyway. So-called religious segregation in Northern Ireland is just another facet of the gang warfare that substitutes for government in that benighted corner of the universe - don't expect me to apologise for that.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 01/09/2015 00:10:40
Sir,

Of course this study looks fair to you, Bless your testosterone blinded, Slytherin heart. One would be amazed if it didn't look to be totally on the square.

***********************

Dear Readers,

As much fun as it has been to come here and break a lance with these contemporary Warleggans and Slytherins, the fact of the California drought compels me to stop here.

These encounters engender a furious need for a long hot shower, and I am beset by guilt at the thought that some wee muggle tyke in Tulare county may be forced to share her brothers' old bathwater as a consequence of them.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/09/2015 19:41:49
NOBODY in America would have touched this "scientific" study with a 10 foot pole because of its obvious racist and sexist nature. The fact that you people prefer to pretend that those faults don't exist, damns your case irretrievably.

America, you see, struggles against racism and sexism and doesn't enshrine them as scientific truth....even in Texas. So, yes, America isn't Britain.....Sir.


It is difficult to admit it, but you may, in fact, be correct. Intelligence may actually be largely inherited  We shall have to see if Prince William has inherited  the keen intelligence and, perhaps, integrity  of Prince Charles.

I shall continue to believe that this is not so - at least until I see a study that includes separated twins and DOESN'T presume that women are of different intelligence. Tell me again why it was "scientific" to treat women separately. As a benighted colonial the subtleties of "Genetic Psychology" elude my grasp.

And also I will wait until there is a "scientific" article that doesn't rate a screamer on the front page of the Daily Mail.
Do you understand the irony of saying "because of its obvious racist " when you are the one posting racist comments about "smug white men" here?
As Alan has pointed out, there's no obvious racism in that paper- as far as I can see, race never gets a mention. You are the only one who has brought it up here and, frankly, you are the one who has demonstrated deep prejudice against national and racial groups.

Your continued ranting about "at least until I see a study that includes separated twins" shows that you have yet to understand the research- so you are clearly not competent to comment on it.

As for "Tell me again why it was "scientific" to treat women separately."
That's easy.
For any of a thousand reasons- genetic, cultural etc- boys and girls do not typically get the same exam scores.
Fraternal twins have a roughly 50% chance of being the same sex, and a roughly 50% chance of being different sexes.
But identical twins are always the same sex.
So, on that obvious basis, you would expect fraternal twins to have bigger differences between their scores than identical twins.
Since that's exactly the difference that the research is looking at, you need to allow for it.

Since you were unable to work that out for yourself, it seems (once again) that you are not bright enough to understand this piece of work.
It's also not even close to the same as saying that there's a difference between intelligence between the sexes. That's just another of your strawmen.

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 01/09/2015 22:09:39
By Gosh, I always thought that Ben Elton was dreaming up those characters in his stories. This thread is like finding long lost works of Wodehouse. THESE are the very same people Psmith encountered in those books. Go know!

Oh well, that kid in Tulare will probably grow up to admire Donald Trump anyway.

Say folks, word is that Ben Elton has a book coming out this December. It should be very good. The comedic quality here is a few pegs lower, but needs must.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/09/2015 22:17:47
Would you like to try discussing science for a change?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 02/09/2015 16:44:16
At what point in the paper under discussion was it suggested that anyone should be denied "a fair shot at an education" on any basis whatever? The paper discussed the variance of a few outcomes, and showed that it was significantly greater between heterozygous twins than between homozygous twins. What's the big deal?
Political comments moved to a different thread...Mod
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 02/09/2015 18:12:33
It literally makes my skin crawl to discuss this with any British educated person who chooses not to see this "research" in its proper political, historical (and uniquely British) context.

I am hardly amazed that this vile pack of lies flourishes in the same Britain which perpetrated the "Burt Affair".

"Over the course of his career, Burt published numerous articles and books on a host of topics ranging from psychometrics through philosophy of science to parapsychology. It is his research in behaviour genetics, most notably in studying the heritability of intelligence (as measured in IQ tests) using twin studies that have created the most controversy, frequently referred to as "the Burt Affair." Shortly after Burt died it became known that all of his notes and records had been burnt, and he was accused of falsifying research data. The 2007 Encyclopædia Britannica noted that it is widely acknowledged that his later work was flawed and many academics agree that data were falsified, though his earlier work is often accepted as valid.""  [1.]


I am highly unimpressed that the British "naked scientists" here pretend to be innocently unaware of the manky history of "behavioral genetics".

Was you born yesterday, Hoss?

Let me point out, Watson, the singular fact that "Doctor" Plomin's "scientific study" does not mention Cyril Burt's "research" in any manner whatsoever. What did the Tory puppet "Scientist" do in the night, Mister?

[1.] Wikipedia,"Cyril Burt"
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/09/2015 20:09:12
This Plomin bird is hooked up with Michael Gove
Ho hum.
He isn't a bird, he's a bloke and the "bird" hooked up with Michael Gove is Sarah Vine. (and a nastier couple of pieces of work would be hard to find- but they have nothing to do with the paper or its funding)

Everybody knows that Burt's work was faked.
So what?
It's not as if anyone is citing him. It was a long time ago an it wouldn't have passed either  ethics cttee approval or peer review today.

Now, would you like to say what is actually wrong with the science in the paper that Plomin et al wrote?
Or are you actually accepting that, while you don't like the outcome, the actual evidence supports the conclusion?
That's the important question.
Do you agree that the data show a statistically significant link between exam scores and genetics?
If not, please show what error they have made.
Don't cite any more old poets or old psychologists.
Don't quote politics. Don't make racist comments. Don't try to start a conspiracy theory.

Just show us where the scientific error is.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 02/09/2015 20:31:02
Poisoned fruit from a poisoned tree.

The reason that Burt's deceptions aren't mentioned in this paper is that the Charlatans and crooks behind it knew that it would weaken their snow job to bring them up. They figured that enough time had passed that they could pull the wool over the eyes of the general public with this - Hey, Presto! --"Discovery".

That is obvious to anyone.

"Doctor" Plomin received his doctorate from the University of Texas. Has he sworn to its veracity on his honor as a Texan? Because I get a bodacious whiff of George Bush and his Texas WMD horse manure in all of this.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/09/2015 19:37:16
"The reason that Burt's deceptions aren't mentioned in this paper is that the Charlatans and crooks behind it knew that it would weaken their snow job to bring them up. "
Bollocks
No paper in nuclear physics these days mentions Blondlot's N rays.
Similarly, Modern biology doesn't mention lamarkian evolution very often.
Modern medicine doesn't cite Benveniste's work on the "memory" of water.

The reason for not mentioning Burt's work is that it's not relevant because it wasn't valid. He cheated.

Now, do you actually have anything to say about the science in the paper?
Are you saying they made up the data or that their mathematical analysis is flawed?
Or do you just not like the outcome?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 03/09/2015 19:51:14
I think we must go along with Pecos Bill's logic, not least because he won't go along with ours.

It is noticeable that Pecos Bill has not cited Mein Kampf at any point in his argument. He is therefore a Nazi apologist. Nor has he mentioned Das Kapital or the Koran, nor quoted the relevant and seminal works of Aleister Crowley or Lytton Strachey. He is thus a crypto-everything-nasty and Not Safe In Taxis.

By their omissions shall ye know them.   
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 03/09/2015 22:55:55
Quote
NOBODY in America would have touched this "scientific" study with a 10 foot pole because of its obvious racist and sexist nature.

The Twins Early Development Study (TEDS) is supported by ........with additional support from the US National Institutes of Health [HD044454; HD059215].

Quote
Now then, a real scientific paper includes a mention of prior research. Plomin's paper fails to do that.

References

    1. Haworth CMA, Asbury K, Dale PS, Plomin R (2011) Added value measures in education show genetic as well as environmental influence. PLoS ONE 6: e16006 doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0016006.t004. .......
3. Loehlin JC, Nichols J (1976) Heredity, environment and personality. Austin: University of Texas......
23. Samuelsson S, Byrne B, Olson RK, Hulslander J, Wadsworth S, et al. (2008) Response to early literacy instruction in the United States, Australia, and Scandinavia: A behavioral-genetic analysis. Learn Individ Differ 18: 289–295 doi: 10.1016/j.lindif.2008.03.004. ........
35. Tseng JCR, Chu H-C, Hwang G-J, Tsai C-C (2008) Development of an adaptive learning system with two sources of personalization information. Comput Educ 51: 776–786 doi: 10.1016/j.compedu.2007.08.002. .........



I think I can see the problem.

Quote
I am reading, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer.
The rest of us are talking about Shakeshaft et al, from which the above italicised quotes are taken. Relax, Bill, and take a deep breath. All is forgiven.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: evan_au on 04/09/2015 00:21:31
Gentlemen, gentlemen....
Let's avoid the personal attacks (or ad hominem arguments, for the linguaphiles among us), and just stick to the science, shall we?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 04/09/2015 16:23:03
Mr. Moderator Sir,

Can you tell me why this Plomin paper from 2013 was presented by you people two years later as some kind of hot news?

.... it is a current political issue. with dangerous implications for the future welfare of children.

Civil enough, Hoss? Or should I upshut and just sit on my hands and whistle?

Close...
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 04/09/2015 16:48:49
I wonder to which paper the honourable gentleman is referring?

The only paper cited in this discussion has eight authors and is properly referenced as Shakeshaft et al. Plomin is indeed one of the authors but is the last mentioned and not the primary contact. 

It is also the case that the said publication lists 35 references to prior work, whereas the paper that Mr Pecos finds objectionable apparently had none, and was part-funded by the US NIH whereas the hon gent asserts that the paper he read would not be touched by an American bargepole.

It is difficult to imagine how the similarity of exam performance of identical twins could become a political issue, any more than their more obvious similarity of physique might be. As far as I know, the spontaneous fission of a blastocyst is not subject to political interference, nor is there any political gain to be made from it.

There may be political implications in a wider aspect of genetics. .... But the finding that identical twins are more similar than fraternal twins surely won't surprise, shock, benefit or harm anyone.
 
Keep it civil... mod
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 04/09/2015 19:49:11
In "The Mismeasure of Man" by  Harvard Professor, Stephen Jay Gould we read of the shameful history of biological determinism (another term for the "genetic psychology" of this paper) from obvious fallacy like "Craniometry" right down to the ... Burt Affair.

In my opinion, this is a warmed over re-hash of the Burt Affair, and The Naked Scientists should not have publicized it.

Keep it civil... mod
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/09/2015 22:23:21
It is a sad day for you and ... science.
What would truly be a sad day would be if scientists refused to analyse data because people might not like the result.

Please avoid quoting ad-hominem arguments.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/09/2015 22:27:49
As to the claims of the infallibility of this research...
Yet another straw man.
Nobody made that claim.
However I have asked you if you have any evidence that the research is not true.
And your reply was "The reason that Burt's deceptions aren't mentioned in this paper is that the those... behind it knew that it would weaken their snow job to bring them up. They figured that enough time had passed that they could pull the wool over the eyes of the general public with this - Hey, Presto! --"Discovery"...."

Which isn't logically true or remotely relevant.

Would you like to try again?

Please avoid quoting ad-hominem arguments.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 05/09/2015 04:01:48
I have been asked to avoid "ad hominem " comments. Then I will speak ad populem.

In my opinion as a Scottish-American, the aim of this paper is to deny equal educational opportunity to working class people. In America it is called "tracking" by Donald Trump. See this naked scientist segment for what it is - it's not science.

How long until this is deleted for ostensibly not speaking La-di-dah English?

"ad populem" is just "ad hominem", en masse - moderator.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/09/2015 11:14:50
I have been asked to avoid "ad hominem " comments. Then I will speak ad populem.

You don't have to be Scottish -American to see the game being played here. In America it is called "tracking" by the Trump gang. Whatever you want to call it, the aim is to deny equal educational opportunity to working class people --not science. Make no mistake. See this naked scientist program for what it is.  God save America and Scotland from this "science" 

How long until this is deleted for ostensibly not speaking La-di-dah English?
It's more likely to be deleted because you are making a derogatory statement without offering any supporting evidence.

Why not try supporting your position with actual facts and logic rather than poetry and strawmen?

Please avoid repeating derogatory statements - mod.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 05/09/2015 16:17:40
The history behind this "research" is telling in its nature but it was deleted.

This does not go far to support the claims that there is no hidden agenda at work here to help rob children of their equal right to education,"scientifically"...

As for you, Mister, when will you respond to my question? Why were females presumed to have different intellects by the authors? I would love to see you try that one in America.

Keep it civil...mod
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: cheryl j on 06/09/2015 01:26:42
I don't see why in this instance it's an either /or question. That identical twins results were more similar than fraternal twins doesn't seem to rule out that environmental factors could also significantly restrict or enhance their progress.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 06/09/2015 02:33:32
Contrary to the simplistic assumptions of this research, identical twins do not share the exact same DNA [1.] The fact that these people fail to address this issue does not argue well for their candor and integrity.

The moderator has chosen to delete my citations of scientific deceptions in Britain -- including the field of "behavioral genetics" as tangential. I wonder if he would buy a horse without enquiring into the reputation of the seller or would that be too beneath the salt?

These facts coupled with the lack of reproduced results confirming its findings, and the political interest in Plomin's results cause me to be amazed that it has found such dogged insistence here that it is the actual gospel truth ---two years after it was published. Nor do I understand why bona fide gentlemen would subject me to rebuke, scorn and ostracism for expressing my doubts---even in England.

And that is before I ask why these people consider women to be naturally incapable of matching the GCSE scores of men.

At the risk of being "tangential" I include a link to an article called, " The Crumbling Pillars of Behavioral Genetics" in Gene Watch, published by The Council for Responsible Genetics [2.]




[1.] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427204/
[2. ] http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/genewatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=384
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/09/2015 09:55:50

2. As you perfectly well know, all my supporting evidence has been deleted by the moderator as "tangential". I believe that is an example of what passes for "civility" among your sort. In American baseball we call that "corking the bat".

3. Finally, since bored_chemist has chosen to remain in his tent, will YOU answer the question, "Why does this research presuppose the inferiority of women's GCSE scores if they are not, in fact, (how to make this civil enough for your delicate sensitivities? Hmmmmm) ....   sadly fallen prey to the victorian misconceptions as to the true nature of the feminine mind?"
Your so called evidence was deleted because it wasn't relevant.
That's what happens when you cite poetry in science; people start to look really closely at the other stuff you post.
It doesn't matter that some bloke many years ago made up some results in a related field.
The thread is discussing the data that some other group  genuinely found recently.
Do you not understand that?

and re.
"Why does this research presuppose the inferiority of women's GCSE scores if they are not, in fact, (how to make this civil enough for your delicate sensitivities? Hmmmmm) ....   sadly fallen prey to the victorian misconceptions as to the true nature of the feminine mind?"
that's easy.
It doesn't presupose anything of the sort.
That's another strawman of yours.

Why not quote the bit where you think it says that they assume women are inferior and then we can explain to you what it really means.

(You may struggle with this as the paper never actually mentions women),.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/09/2015 10:12:13
I don't see why in this instance it's an either /or question. That identical twins results were more similar than fraternal twins doesn't seem to rule out that environmental factors could also significantly restrict or enhance their progress.
It doesn't. Indeed, the study assumes that the environment does affect their results.
That effect is pretty much the same for pairs of twins.
So twins should have very similar scores.
But the way that identical twins are treated is pretty much the same as the way that fraternal twins are treated.
Both types of twins grow up in the same household, the same culture, the same wealth or poverty.
So the difference in scores between pairs of identical twins should be the same as the difference in scores between pairs of fraternal twins.

But it isn't.
There is a bigger difference with the fraternal twins than with the identical ones.
And the only difference is genetic.
Identical twins are much more genetically similar than fraternal twins.
So, the variation of scores is different for the two, and the only difference between the groups is genetics.
So there's a genetic component to the scores.

Bills' observation that identical twins are not strictly genetically identical is true and relevant.
But it argues against his point of view.
That difference should "wash out" the effect that is seen.
But, in spite of the small differences between identical twins, the effect shows up.
The effect of genetics  must be slightly stronger than that calculated by the model.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 06/09/2015 18:17:57
As to the claim that these people don't presuppose that women don't match men in their GCSE scores....

" Quantitative sex differences refer to differences for ACE parameter estimates for male and female twin pairs. Qualitative sex differences indicate that different genes or different environmental factors influence males and females, which is suggested when the correlation for dizygotic opposite-sex (DZO) twins is less than the correlations for same-sex DZ pairs, based on the assumption that genetic or environmental influences that are specific to one sex will reduce within-pair similarity for the DZO group"  [1.]

Is this paper sexist? If the shoe fits- wear it and weep.

 [1.]  http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0080341

*****************************

Gracious me!

I haven't encountered such fervid efforts to sell me some dodgy "facts" since  George Bush and Tony Blair were whipping up the mob to invade  Iran.

I got banned from the "Letters to the Editor" for expressing my doubts then as well.

I don't care if every "Behavioral geneticist" in the world testifies to the value of this research  --it still reeks to me of yellow cake, aluminum tubes, and secret mobile poison gas factories.

Or is comparing the push to sell this paper to the push to sell the Iraq fiasco too "tangential" for you.
This bit of hyperbole is out of scope for this thread.
Rationale: This forum is primarily about Science (and its impact on society). The science of WMD is sufficiently removed from the science of twin studies that it belongs in a different thread. - Mod.


***************
Mr. bored_chemist disparages me for having quoted T.S. Elliot here as reason to refute this "research". Had more people read Elliot's poetry in 2002 there might not be hordes of people thirsting for our blood today.  And a careful reading of Elliot's poetry today would show the soulless denial of humanity which underlies this "research".
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/09/2015 18:58:36
Do you actually understand that there is a difference between
" we found differences" and we "presuppose the inferiority of women's GCSE scores" ?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 06/09/2015 22:01:01
Humanity is sexist. There are boys and there are girls, they look different, have different chromosomes, and they have different biological functions. It turns out (not that anyone "presupposes" it) that they also get different scores in public examinations, which explains why the majority of medical students in the UK are female. For this reason it is important to correct for the underlying sex differences in various subjects if you want to maximise the yield of statistical data from twin studies.

It's somewhat bizarre to criticise people for reading an allegedly racist paper published in 2013, by quoting
an antisemitic  poet who had the decency to die in 1965.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 06/09/2015 23:25:44
In my opinion, women's different GCSE scores than those of men cannot depend on their DNA...

It is curious, is it not, that calling T.S. Elliot an anti-semite here is not deleted  as "tangential" by the moderator as long, it seems, as it is uttered by an Englishman? ...

When I cited Elliot's poem, "The Hollow Men" I was linking to people who hold that the sum of a person's humanity is encapsulated in their DNA. For what else is "Behavioral genetics" when you strip away its window dressing?

Reader, after the AI singularity what will your children's fate be when soulless machines have assessed their DNA for its possibilities?  The behavioral genetics people claim that I am an alarmist  -- besides being familiar with poetry.
This "ad hominem" is becoming "ad nauseum"...Mod

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 07/09/2015 06:45:19
The gentleman states that since the majority of medical students in the UK are female this is evidence against gender discrimination because of their GCSE scores.

Here is evidence ( in the BMJ) that female doctors in the UK earn 29% less than male doctors. [1.]Now then, is that a natural effect because they have inherited it in their DNA being, after all, ...girls?  The behavioral geneticists differentiated them in this study because they assumed so. Is that not so?

I am a retired male RN.  Friends and neighbors do NOT try to feed me baloney about how fairly women are treated. I have watched them - and often borne that same burden. We have gotten the shaft throughout my career by smug "gentlemen" just like these "scientists" who call themselves "Behavioral geneticists".

[1.]  http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/view-article.html?id=20019204
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Pecos_Bill on 07/09/2015 07:15:46
Readers,

I had originally come to this place because as a retired RN, I enjoy still helping people with their medical questions. I became embroiled in this matter because it seemed to be a perversion of medicine for very tawdry, mean political ends. Having devoted my life to medicine, that sickens me. I would have been ashamed of myself in front of those who taught me the art and science of nursing had I failed to confront such a perversion, so help me God.

If I get the chance, I would like to help some more people here, we shall have to see.
Political comments moved to a different thread...Mod
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/09/2015 15:07:20
In my opinion, women's different GCSE scores than those of men cannot depend on their DNA...

A worthy opinion, but not tested by the paper (you would do well to read it before criticising it). The fact is that boys and girls score differently in different subjects, for whatever reason, so if you are looking for an inherited factor you have to correct for that potentially confounding variable, which they did.   


Quote
The gentleman states that since the majority of medical students in the UK are female this is evidence against gender discrimination because of their GCSE scores.

You would get more respect if you refrained from garbling other people's utterances into complete drivel. The point is that if you select people on the basis of their exam scores and interview performance, more girls than boys seem suited to medical studies. Whether this indicates discrimination against males or not depends on the relative performance and weighting of different examination subjects at A level (not GCSE) for which I have only anecdotal evidence that girls generally outperform boys in all subjects except physics - an unexplained anomaly, and quite irrelevant to the present discussion.

Quote
Here is evidence ( in the BMJ) that female doctors in the UK earn 29% less than male doctors. [1.]Now then, is that a natural effect because they have inherited it in their DNA being, after all, ...girls?

Yes! As in every other profession, women tend to take time out to raise children during their career development phase and often return to work part-time, and usually in the public sector, thus reducing both their career prospect and maximum earning potential. For those who stay, the public sector offers equal session pay at all levels and there is no earnings limit in the private sector. I pay my radiologists for what they do, not what they are, and since female patients generally prefer to see a female doctor, the women in my team can take home more than the men. Whether they do is up to them.

Quote
The behavioral geneticists differentiated them in this study because they assumed so. Is that not so?

No. If you had read the paper, you would know that there was no assumption. The statistics were based on actual examination results, which showed consistent gender differences, so they discussed and corrected for those differences.

If there is a difference between our cultures, and if you and I represent it, then I'm pleased to live on the side of the Atlantic where we are taught to examine the patient before diagnosing, and to read the instructions before administering the treatment!
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/09/2015 20:07:41
In reviewing my last posts, the biased interference of the moderator has shown me what a rigged game is being run here. I refuse to participate further in this charade of an open, honest  debate. 

You have yet to participate in this debate.
In a debate, if someone poses a question, you are expected to answer it or accept that you are wrong.
Posting poetry isn't an acceptable response.

You have totally failed to support essentially any assertion you have made (apart from a  few commonplace ones that nobody ever disputed anyway such as the fact that women are discriminated against or that Burt told lies).
Title: MOVED: Who controls the Naked Scientists?
Post by: evan_au on 09/09/2015 13:13:50
This topic on editorial control of the Naked Scientists show and Forum has been moved to New Theories (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?board=18.0).

Subsequent discussion of politics on this Physiology & Medicine thread is banned.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=60152.0
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 09/09/2015 18:24:00
As to the claim that these people don't presuppose that women don't match men in their GCSE scores....

" Quantitative sex differences refer to differences for ACE parameter estimates for male and female twin pairs. Qualitative sex differences indicate that different genes or different environmental factors influence males and females, which is suggested when the correlation for dizygotic opposite-sex (DZO) twins is less than the correlations for same-sex DZ pairs, based on the assumption that genetic or environmental influences that are specific to one sex will reduce within-pair similarity for the DZO group"  [1.]



You should distinguish betwen presupposition and observed fact. See my earlier response on this subject.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 11/09/2015 15:13:01
In reading this thread, a tear was brought to my eye seeing that the Naked Scientists have shown how  the genetic basis for paying women differently is absolute scientific truth. Of course British women doctors are paid 29% less because they are, ipso facto, genetically women. I mean, Duh! It's just  what I intend to tell my new bride when she learns enough English to speak with the neighborhood women.

I am so pleased as well to see that disgusting Pecan Bob person has now departed. The absolute gall of that person to say that these good men here were playing with a  " twerked" bat. The very idea is so ludicrous. Well, we have shown the world, haven't we? I notice the new verification methods to prevent future disturbances from such riff-raff and bearded anarchists. What times, eh?

God bless the naked scientists, Dr. Plomin, and England!
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 11/09/2015 18:27:07
Dear FU

The correspondence here has pointed out exactly the opposite of your assertions on the pay of women doctors in the UK.

Like PB, you seem to believe in your own psychic ability, to the extent of summarising arguments that you clearly have not read.
 
Be careful crossing the road.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 11/09/2015 19:32:40
Thank God you have cleared that up, Sir!

For who could ever doubt the word of a British Gentleman when it comes to "The rights of women"? (Cf: Mary Wolltonstonescraft for historical context).

Even though you appear to be talking out of the other side of your mouth - again -- I am sure that is only due to my misapprehension of your earnest desire to be fair to the "weaker sex".

However, to avoid a lamentable accusation of being "ad hominem" perhaps you would show me the courtesy to address me by the private messages facility -- instead of publicly here -- so that I may respond to you more appropriately.

I am not, you see, one of the naked scientist elect and not allowed to pretend that I am speaking in condescending contempt to people after they have been secretly eliminated.

We naked scientist wallahs do so love having the last word. Do we not?

But this thread risks becoming tedious with you rhyming variations of your original theme.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 11/09/2015 22:51:37
Alas, you seem to be cut from the same cloth as that fellow Pecos. Curious chap, started off full of interesting information and searching questions, then got a bee in his bonnet about a paper he clearly hadn't read, tried to cover his embarrassment with irrelevant insults, and rather lost credibility. We scientists just say "OK, I was wrong" and get on with life, because science is all about having your preconceptions challenged by facts.

So don't expect any PMs from me: if it can't be said in public, it's probably not worth saying.

If you happen to come across Pecos Bill in your exploration of cyberspace, you might pass this on:

 
Quote
Sept. 2 (Bloomberg) -- Female physicians in the U.S. continue to earn less than their male counterparts, with the pay gap widening during the past two decades to more than $50,000 annually in 2010, researchers said.

Women doctors had a median annual income of $165,278 from 2006 to 2010, compared with yearly earnings of $221,297 for male physicians, according to the report published today in JAMA Internal Medicine. While the annual pay for women doctors has increased since the median of $134,995 in 1990, it’s only now beginning to approach the $168,795 annually earned by men 20 years ago, the researchers found.

He will probably point out that a 25.5% earnings gap compared wth 29% in the UK just shows that the USA is a haven of gender equality, but he might just have a lucid moment and ask his alter ego whether there's something other than prejudice involved.     
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 12/09/2015 01:39:24
I recall Pecos_Bill saying that while people still struggle against sexism in America, they do not cook up phony pseudo science to claim it is due to genetic difference there. He made that point clearly shortly before he was eliminated by the forum's puppet master because it nauseated him (the puppet-master) to hear it.

Quote
Sorry Pecos_Bill, you are banned from using this forum!
Ad hominem, ad nauseum

After Pecos_Bill's "disapperance" we heard - at great length - these two gentlemen hammering on and on -now with no voice to refute them -- in classic "Big Lie" thuggish tactics. Give em the old razzle-dazzle! [1.]

Oh dear, have I upset your delicate Sassanach sensitivities by saying this? Will I, too, not survive the night? The suspense is terrible. I hope it lasts.

[1.] 
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/09/2015 14:11:16
I recall Pecos_Bill saying that while people still struggle against sexism in America, they do not cook up phony pseudo science to claim it is due to genetic difference there. He made that point clearly shortly before he was eliminated by the forum's puppet master because it nauseated him (the puppet-master) to hear it.

Quote
Sorry Pecos_Bill, you are banned from using this forum!
Ad hominem, ad nauseum

After Pecos_Bill's "disapperance" we heard - at great length - these two gentlemen hammering on and on -now with no voice to refute them -- in classic "Big Lie" thuggish tactics. Give em the old razzle-dazzle! [1.]

Oh dear, have I upset your delicate Sassanach sensitivities by saying this? Will I, too, not survive the night? The suspense is terrible. I hope it lasts.

[1.] 
And your evidence that the science is phony is...?
Or are yo just making an unjustified claim because you don't like the outcome?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 12/09/2015 23:36:58
Has British science not learned its lesson from Wakefield's recent autism/vaccination British crime against humanity?  Guess not. Just as Burt's behavioral genetics crimes have now been swept under the rug. Too old and irrelevant , they say.

Quote
In "The Mismeasure of Man" by  Harvard Professor, Stephen Jay Gould we read of the shameful history of biological determinism (another term for the "genetic psychology" of this paper) from obvious fallacy like "Craniometry" right down to the ... Burt Affair.[deleted text here]
In my opinion, this [paper] is a warmed over re-hash of the Burt Affair, and The Naked Scientists should not have publicized it.
 

Quote
The history behind this "research" is telling in its nature but it was deleted.
 

Quote
The moderator has chosen to delete my citations of scientific deceptions in Britain -- including the field of "behavioral genetics" as tangential. 


Here is a list of discussions of Wakefield here to show that is the case..
1.  Topic: Was Doctor Andrew Wakefield Right After all? http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=51468.0

2.     Topic: VACCINES INTERVIEW   http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=2810.0

3.    Topic: Is there a link between vaccination and autism? http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=13710.0;nowap


It should have been allowed so as to compare this similarly dodgy research in "behavioral genetics" to let the readers decide themselves.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/09/2015 10:02:40
The fact that some people like Burt and Wakefield have been charlatans is well recognised.
But it has nothing to do with this research because those charlatans didn't take part in it.

Do you have either an alternative explanation for the observation of more similar scores for identical twins or evidence that the science in the paper is flawed?

If not you have nothing to say except that you don't like the results.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 13/09/2015 10:22:24
If you want to sling mud at "British" science by quoting Wakefield, may I suggest a strong dose of Tuskegee as an antidote? Or is deliberate harm and negligence too tangential to be weighed against pathetic fraud? OK, let's get back to surgery:

Quote
This transorbital lobotomy method did not require a neurosurgeon and could be performed outside of an operating room without the use of anesthesia by using electroconvulsive therapy to induce seizure. The modifications to his lobotomy allowed Freeman to broaden the use of the surgery, which could be performed in psychiatric hospitals throughout the United States that were overpopulated and understaffed. In 1950 Walter Freeman's longtime partner James Watts left their practice and split from Freeman due to his opposition to the cruelty and overuse of the transorbital lobotomy.

How did he get away with it? Well,

Quote
Walter J. Freeman was born on November 14, 1895 to a privileged family. He was raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania by his parents. Freeman was also known for being a bit of an oddball and he complemented his theatrical approach to demonstrating surgery by sporting a cane, goatee, and a wide-brimmed hat.

Of course this couldn't happen in a perfect classless democracy like the USA, could it? I can't use the word "meritocracy" because that would imply some objective measure of performance, to which you would probably object.

By the way, have you actually read the paper yet?

Come on, Bill, you can do better than your friend Uhuru's ravings.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: evan_au on 14/09/2015 13:03:09
I deleted a block of messages that read like a schoolyard exercise in name-calling.
I left just enough to show that scientific fraud can occur on both sides of the pond. 
But the focus here should be identifying any problems with the paper under discussion, or twin studies in general. Mod.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: ProjectSailor on 14/09/2015 14:30:09
I lost the thread many times through this post.. Thanks peco for tarring all british people with the same brush, this book you are reading is certainly having an impact on your thought processes.. but beyond that I actually half agree with you.

Genetics does not and will not affect intelligence or capability. If this were true we would still live in caves hitting each other with clubs over who's class system is most ridiculous.

Environment is the prime mover.. I am sure someone much cleverer than i has done a paper on this sort of thing..

One thing I cannot classify is 'mindset?' if thats the right word.. a family who instill a hardworking 'mindset?' into their child and make them believe the world is their oyster will get a bright and intelligent child. (not always true but close enough to kow it is a main contributing factor) whether they are rich or poor makes a huge difference too.. but I believe this to be another 'mindset?' factor, where the poor kids lack ambition maybe, or get too cynical too young from watching their parents struggle.

But I know one thing.. Intelligent parents do not always have intelligent kids.. and siblings can have a wide range of abilities from first class maths degrees to no gcse's and a criminal record as in my family.

I knew three sets of twins in my school.. and the only reason they all passed their gcse's with similar graes was because they copied each other on the coursework.. and studied together and because they were studying the same subjects.. yes they progressed at the same rate.. only twins and very very rare fraternals can actually do this. Hence the 'genetic' link is more like an age gap link... which is a bit stupid to put in a report.. 'is age a factor in your gcse grade'

But tbh the whole argument is pointless since your GCSE grades mean absolutely nothing to your intelligence or capability since they have constantly catered for the lowest denominator and are racing to the bottom with the rest of the world competing for headlines.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 14/09/2015 15:21:18
Readers,

About 200 words of my evidence has once again been erased by the people running the naked scientist.

Dr. Plomin's research remains un-reproduced and thus unconfirmed by rational men and women.

What is not open to question here is the dogged effort of the people running the naked scientists to shove it out into the world as the gospel truth.

The world has learned that when you accept such  British "science" at face value, you are taking your chances.

I have previously voiced my concern that this "science news" of this 2 year old paper may be politically influenced. It is of note that yesterday Mr. Corbyn was elected to lead the Labor party.

I will post this in hopes that enough people can read it before it is hidden from their view.

Although the best cyber-security Britain has is now in use to silence Pecos_Bill's dissent - and although I probably face the same fate --in the words of General MacArthur, "I shall return" - within 6 months.

The only way they could prevent that is to shut down this farce completely. That would be bad, but still better than this disgusting donkey show.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/09/2015 19:54:34
"I have previously voiced my concern that this "science news" of this 2 year old paper may be politically influenced. It is of note that yesterday Mr. Corbyn was elected to lead the Labor party."
The election may well be noteworthy (and I for one am glad of it) but it has nothing to do with the topic.
And the same was true of your 200 words of so called "evidence".
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/09/2015 19:57:32

... If this were true we would still live in caves ...
Why?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 14/09/2015 20:02:45

But tbh the whole argument is pointless since your GCSE grades mean absolutely nothing to your intelligence or capability

Which is why the paper only discussed GCSE grades, not intelligence or capability. 

Quote
since they have constantly catered for the lowest denominator and are racing to the bottom with the rest of the world competing for headlines.

I'd agree. It was pointed out in 1999 that the model answers to a 1969 Ordinary level (now GCSE. taken at age 16 or thereabouts) physics paper would have merited a good pass at Advanced level (university entrance, age 18) 30 years later.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/09/2015 20:48:44
The dumbing down of exams is an interesting topic in it's own right. But, since the paper that opened this thread is based on comparisons within one year so it's irrelevant.
Also, (almost always) the twins will have sat exactly the same paper and it will have been marked by the same person,  yet the differences in scores were not the same.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 15/09/2015 09:01:37
Here's a fact that may be of interest to those who argue that "the Plomin paper" is an attempt to justify some obnoxious and uniquely British social phenomenon. Robert Plomin is an American.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: ProjectSailor on 15/09/2015 09:15:36

... If this were true we would still live in caves ...
Why?

If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired to the same level of intelligence.. hence no one would think 'hey why don't we build our own caves and figure out a way to do it'.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: evan_au on 15/09/2015 12:22:45
Quote from: ProjectSailor
If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time
This assertion presupposes that everyone is cloned (ie essentially the same genetics as their parent).

However, sexual reproduction results in mixing the parental genes in the children. If there is a slight increase in the number of children from those with higher intelligence, then you would expect that genes related to higher intelligence would gradually become more common in the population. This might occur if more intelligent people were better paid & nourished, suffered fewer accidents, or were more attractive to the opposite sex, for example. 

This genetic drift is not enough to explain the Flynn effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect), which saw the IQ scores of some populations increasing at quite rapid rates in the 20th Century. Causes are mysterious, but could be due to better education, nutrition or medical care. There are some hints that this effect has stalled, or even gone backwards in the 21st century (some blame computer games or the education system again...)
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 15/09/2015 16:09:02
If intelligence had a preponderant dependence on inheritance then Regression to mediocrity would dictate that intelligence would decrease.

Quote
The concept of regression comes from genetics and was popularized by Sir Francis Galton during the late 19th century with the publication of Regression towards mediocrity in hereditary stature.  [1.]


If the Flynn effect has caused an increase in British IQ's (which tourists passing near a British pub on any Friday evening could not be blamed for doubting) then how do you explain the singular occurrence that the naked scientist has presented this 2 year old same paper by Plomin - albeit, wearing a different shirt - here in the next month and apparently thinks it can be passed of as science news among the rubes?  (Cf: What can twins tell us about genetics, intelligence, and more?)



[1.] Galton, F. (1886). "Regression towards mediocrity in hereditary stature". The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland 15: 246–263. doi:10.2307/2841583
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/09/2015 19:26:45

... If this were true we would still live in caves ...
Why?

If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired to the same level of intelligence.. hence no one would think 'hey why don't we build our own caves and figure out a way to do it'.
Nonsense.
I flatter myself perhaps, but I believe that humans are the most intelligent species on the planner (though I accept the point about pubs on a Friday night).
How did we get that way?
The only credible answer is evolution- the less intelligent  didn't do so well and didn't  raise so many children and grandchildren.

If your idea was true then we would all have the same coloured eyes because that's a clearly genetic trait.

It may be true that "there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired "
but that shows the exact opposite of what you claim.
We are more intelligent than our distant ancestors- the protohuman forbears of us, the chimps and so on- and the reason for that is precisely because we have, as you put it ' better 'intelligence genes' '.

Those genes are heritable and if some people have a slightly better set than others, perhaps it would explain why they (and their identical twin) do well in exams compared to another pair of twins who do less well because they have the misfortune to have  a less proficient set of "intelligence genes".
(And i accept there's a lot more to intelligence than exam scores, but it's difficult to say they are uncorrelated.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/09/2015 19:28:04
If intelligence had a preponderant dependence on inheritance then...


how fortunate then, that nobody said that it did.
Why the strawman?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: evan_au on 15/09/2015 22:41:46
Quote from: Franklin_Uhuru
If intelligence had a preponderant dependence on inheritance then Regression to mediocrity would dictate that intelligence would decrease
.
The term "mediocrity" as used by Galton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton#Regression_to_mediocrity) does not mean "inferior", but "average", and so the correct statistical term is "regression to the mean" (where mean = average). 

So the children of an extreme outlier like Einstein are unlikely to also be an extreme outlier, but probably closer to the average. Simultaneously, children of people closer to the average will sometimes produce an extreme outlier (like an Einstein).

So regression to the mean does not mean a general reduction in intelligence, but a sustaining of the distribution; That is, if there were no other factors at play (like young men who think they can drive safely at 150 mph after a Friday night at the pub).
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 15/09/2015 22:46:23
Do you assert therefore that these twins GCSE scores are not  necessarily the result of their inherited intelligence? Could it possibly be that they live in the same house, eat the same food, are taken to the same museums, and etc. etc. etc. ?

What else then, Sir? Have these twins inherited clairvoyance or some other extra sensory perception? Were they getting answers from the "other side"?

Do they search test takers to ensure they don't sneak a ouija board into the test site?

Have you discovered ectoplasmic cheating in Btitain?

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 15/09/2015 23:02:42
Quote
Could it possibly be that they live in the same house, eat the same food, are taken to the same museums, and etc. etc. etc. ?

You are halfway to understanding the paper!
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 15/09/2015 23:05:58
...
As to regression to mediocrity in the matter of intelligence, it shows that you cannot predict higher intelligence in children based on their parents' intelligence unless you look at sub-normal intelligence of the parents.

Therefore, this research has no practical application to predicting GCSE scores due to inheritance. It has been rather useful in making the Daily Mail to claim that predictive power , hasn't it?
...
Conspiracy theories and speculation about political bias are now in a separate thread - see New Theories.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 15/09/2015 23:15:03

If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired to the same level of intelligence.. hence no one would think 'hey why don't we build our own caves and figure out a way to do it'.

We seem to think that height and skin color are genetically linked, yet successive generations tend to diverge, to the extent that homo sapiens comes in quite a variety of distinct local forms. Some of us think this is due to environmental and social selection generating evolutionary branches from a common but slightly plastic genome, others think it is the intentional design of a supreme being. If regression to the mean is dominant, surely we'd all look like Australopithecus or Lucy. So either it isn't, or Darwin was wrong.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 15/09/2015 23:40:51
Therefore, this research has no practical application to predicting GCSE scores due to inheritance. It has been rather useful in making the Daily Mail to claim that predictive power , hasn't it?

Cut to the chase: there is no practical value whatever in predicting GCSE scores by any means, there never was, and there never will be. The examination is definitive, and unless you failed spectacularly on the day because the cat died (sh1t happens, which is why you can retake GCSEs), no employer cares about any third party prediction.

Tip: If you want to be taken seriously this side of the Atlantic, don't quote the Daily Mail as source material, or even admit to reading it.

Quote
Therefore, to return to my original question, why are you and the rest of the naked scientists here beavering away to present it twice - (2 years old research as it ever was) as the hot news of the day?

I can't speak for the program makers but I can offer two possible answers to the question: (a) space filling - it's utterly boring and pointless research but pretty easy to interview anyone working in London,  but (b) rather like the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887, it is a classic null test of an otherwise intractable hypothesis, and therefore likely to be quoted many more times. In short: along with the Guinness Book of Records, it may become the definitive answer to a completely useless but often-asked question. Apologies to Michelson and Morley, whose question was of fundamental importance.   
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 16/09/2015 01:18:30
Dr. Plomin might have chosen to use behavioral genetics to throw light on pedophilia, schizophrenia, serial murderers, manic- depressive illness -- any number of satanic afflictions on suffering humanity.

Instead he used it to see if inheritance plays a roll in school success. He did that in England with its long dolorous history of class ridden oppression of the common man. Further, make any attempt to question the real (perhaps subconscious) reason for this and one is met with shocked outrage --- and banishment from the realm -- at least attempted banishment.

Conspiracy theories and speculation about political bias are now in a separate thread - see New Theories - Mod.
Meanwhile Pedophilia continues to menace children, Schizophrenics may easily be found wandering the streets -often eating out of garbage cans, and Manic-depressives still hit the wall and hang themselves.      So it goes. It is an outrage - a real outrage - to any Registered Nurse.

What a country.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 16/09/2015 06:46:57
Ah, Mr Uhuru, how lucky you are to live in a classless egalitarian society where the National Guard had to accompany a little child to school because her grandparents had been slaves, and where schoolkids still murder their classmates with automatic rifles. How comforting it must be to sit in Elysium and criticise a paper you haven't read, whilst ascribing all sorts of terrible motives to one of your countrymen - all of whom, your friend Pecos insists, would run a mile from it.

If only there were no paedophiles in California....

Quote
4 Apr 2013 - California Congresswoman Jackie Speier, Democrat, wants to federalize a state law that protects pedophiles.

That's the way to deal with a problem - legalise it out of existence!

I can't answer why Plomin has chosen to make a career out of studying child psychology, but all sorts of people make a living doing things that others might consider pointless, or at least of minimal urgency. I recently had a delightful dinner with a lady who has spent her adult life interpreting the theology of a 15th century Dutch nun's poems. But as your countryman Robert Wilson said of particle physics

Quote
In that sense, this new knowledge has all to do with honor and country but it has nothing to do directly with defending our country except to help make it worth defending.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 16/09/2015 17:43:39
I am replacing the entry which the "gentlemen" of the naked scientists were afraid to let you see...without telling you. I will continue to do so until I am silenced by these people. However, repression will not silence the voice of humanity here or anywhere else...you can take that to the bank.

*******************
I will not answer this "gentleman's" tirade. However, since the mirror I held up to him obviously cut so deeply I will rephrase it again. Maybe it will replenish the springs of humanity among some of you people.

While the oozing wounds of Britain's (Yes and America and doubtless even in Arcadia) ooze and fester, Dr. Plomin and his naked scientist fans here have chosen to spend their coin worrying about the inheritance of GCSE scores. For is that not the title you people have given it here?.

They could have spent it looking into the etiology of mental illness but they didn't. What? Is this the world of 2015 or naked scientist cloud coo-coo land?

The supposed inheritance of school performance was more important to them than addressing the causes of so much quotidian human anguish to Dr Chris and his Merrie band. I call that strong work, indeed.

Quote

    And someone says, "You're in the wrong place, my friend, you
    Better leave"
    And the only sound that's left after the ambulances go
    Is Cinderella sweeping up on Desolation Row


That is poetry you know. A person among you has disparaged my previous attempt to quote T.S. Elliot to reach some iota of humanity among you folks.

Hope springs eternal..
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/09/2015 18:55:12
Do you assert therefore that these twins GCSE scores are not  necessarily the result of their inherited intelligence? Could it possibly be that they live in the same house, eat the same food, are taken to the same museums, and etc. etc. etc. ?

OK, so you are making progress.
The twins' results are similar because they share the same upbringing etc. Everybody expected that.
That's one vitally important part of the research.
Now,  Let's see if you can get to grips with the other thing they found in their research.
The difference in scores between the fraternal twins was bigger than the difference in scores between pairs of identical twins.


Do you understand that?
There's a difference between identical twins and non- identical twins.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 16/09/2015 20:02:47
I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.

What I do not understand is why none of you male "scientists" see the inherently sexist assumption in this "research"....assuming you are not benighted, testosterone blinded  throwbacks.

Please limit conspiracy theories and speculation about political bias to New Theories - Mod.

What I do understand is that scarce medical research funds were squandered on this daft and questionable research while British ( and other)  people continue to suffer from any number of  mental and physical afflictions whose genetic interactions are real and matter.

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/09/2015 21:47:01
I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.

You seem to have scooped today's irony prize.
No such assumption is made.
They say that the scores are different and that you need to account for that because roughly half of fraternal twins are not the same sex, but identical twins are always the same sex.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 16/09/2015 23:35:26
I also said that the sexist discrimination was apparent to anyone who is not a testosterone-ridden throwback. Is that not so, Mister?

I have worked with and for other women RN's all my adult life. I am no stranger to the devious lengths men go to in order to keep their foot on their throats. Do you understand that, Mister?

But you are obviously using this to distract people from my main point which I will quote again..since you are so transparently trying on these antics to obscure it.

Wait for it...

What I do understand is that scarce medical research funds were squandered on this daft and questionable research while British ( and other)  people continue to suffer from any number of  mental and physical afflictions whose genetic interactions are real and matter.

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 17/09/2015 17:47:16
I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.

I don't know where you got this from. It certainly isn't suggested in the paper.

There is a well-known measurable difference between boys' and girls' scores in different GCSE subjects. There are well-known chromosomal differences between boys and girls. Correlation does not imply causation, but where it is a statistically significant confounding factor, it is worthwhile adjusting the actual subject scores accordingly before comparing identical twins' score differences with those of fraternal twins. Which is what they did, because otherwise the unadjusted score differences of different-sex fraternals would have been greater than those of same-sex fraternals.

If you are looking for a small unknown, it's always worthwhile correcting for all the known knowns.

Daft? Yes. Harmful? No. My pianist has a PhD based on the sexual behaviour of African sparrows. There being no great shortage of African sparrows, nor any great reluctance of African sparrows to indulge in sexual behaviour, you might ask why his sponsors bothered, but then why climb a mountain or fly to the Moon? Indeed with a precarious agriculture on the verge of collapse and imminent flooding of half the country, why send a cricket team to the World Cup? I'm sure our Bangladeshi correspondents have a view on the subject, and I think it's something to do with "just for fun".

Where I disagree with the paper is in its conclusions and discussion. The authors use the once-fashionable mistranslation of educare as "to bring out" as though it means to expose a child's inherent (dare I use the word?) talents and abilities. In my day, educare meant "to lead  out". I don't think Caesar's  officers were particularly concerned with developing their troops' individual abilities to sing or paint, but rather wanted to extricate them from an ambush or a bog, and thus recruited local scouts to educare the milites. But that was in the days of O level Latin: I'm sure it has all been dumbed down for GCSE. 
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 17/09/2015 18:26:30
Perhaps you think that if you can keep talking long enough nobody who has outgrown the Victorian concept of women will remember my point, Mister.

Once again ..

What I do understand is that scarce medical research funds were squandered on this daft and questionable research while British ( and other)  people continue to suffer from any number of  mental and physical afflictions whose genetic interactions are real and matter.

Today in this forum people -- real people --are seeking help for their fibromyalgia, amputations, and tinnitus. Fibromyalgia alone is a cause of significant cost and disability.

Yet the money which might have been used to seek help for these people was squandered by this very questionable and unconfirmed "research" which has not produced one miniscule iota of benefit to the human race -- nor, never will.

Take a bow, Mister
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 17/09/2015 19:00:00
Perhaps you could enlilghten us with your priority list of all academic research?

I have agreed with you from the outset that there was no conceivable practical value to this work, but I am aware that the US Academy of Sciences told the Wright Brothers that there was no conceivable military use for the airplane, and that the laser which reads your CDs was for at least a decade nothing more than an academic solution to a nonexistent question. Nevertheless we now know that identical twins score closer than fraternal twins, heavier-than-air flying machines play a major part in modern warfare, and utterly pointless music can be played in your car whilst millions are starving.     
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/09/2015 22:00:57
I also said that the sexist discrimination was apparent to anyone who is not a testosterone-ridden throwback. Is that not so, Mister?

Come off it Bill, it isn't apparent. It's imaginary.
If you disagree, just quote the part from the paper where they say it.
Show us the " assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup."

That shouldn't be difficult and it would completely show your point and demonstrate the superiority of your view.


Oh, BTW, there's a perfectly valid (if not really medical) reason for doing this sort of research.
You may be aware that Binet's original work on quantifying intelligence was done so that those who needed help could be identified and helped.

Just because some utter ***** misused this sort of work in a pretended justification of eugenics or racism, doesn't mean that the actual science is in any way "bad" or "evil".
It remains, as I pointed out before, the best weapon against the things you say you hate.
Why not climb back down off your high horse, read the paper and realise that you can use the results to crush those damnable bastards.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 17/09/2015 23:24:28
This is a family forum - as the rules attest. Even though you are one of the moderator's little pals, kindly avoid using your garbage mouth like that again, Mister. You may have noticed that I am able to use quite colorful - but clean -- imagery without your gutter vocabulary. So take a hint, Buster.

Nevertheless, your bad manners have failed  (again) to distract me from my point....

This ... paper has produced no benefit to mankind except to sell newspapers of a dodgy type. Don't give me that tap dance about Binet. What is the use of this schlock to 21st century Britain -- or the world? Meanwhile. this dog has eaten up scarce medical research dollars and those valid areas of research that have a chance of benefiting people -- have (Wait for it!) ---gone wanting for funds.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 17/09/2015 23:47:41
As you well know, vast sums of research money are wasted on all sorts of nonsense. Unfortunately, once a sector budget has been allocated in a funding body, it's very difficult to vire funds to a more deserving sector, especially if you haven't received any grant applications in that sector. But if you don't spend the money within the financial year, you lose it and next year's budget gets reduced.

From the grant-givers' perspective, we have to judge every application on its own merits of soundness, feasibility, etc. Where there is no actual product or procedure to be developed, the subject of utility is not discussed.

Best advice I was given as an applicant was to spend my entire first-year capital allocation within 6 months at most. That way the Powers that Be think you are working efficiently to a strict plan, give you more money next year, and also scrape this year's barrel for unspent cash from other people's budgets. 

For what it's worth, in the last 10 years of reviewing research proposals I have only considered about two out of 200 applications from universities to be worthwhile (or even spelled correctly), whilst around 95% of those from industrial and clinical applicants were likely to actually benefit mankind. 

Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 18/09/2015 07:05:24
If, as you say, vast sums of medical research money are wasted because you don't receive grant proposals from valid and deserving disease researchers  --[A.] then you obviously have failed to issue requests for proposals for valid medical research. And [B.] why are you issuing those funds unless to maintain a charade that you have spent the peoples' tax money wisely...and need more again in the next year?
...
Part of my job when I was TB-HIV counselor was to write the yearly grant renewal to extend the funding another year.

Therefore, I know from personal experience that this Plomin -or one of his graduate student coolies - must have burned midnight oil to get the grant proposal for this nonsense whipped together in some manner that would cut your low standards of the mustard.. Your claim that the funding for this study couldn't feasibly have been denied is only believable for persons whose Mommy reads them a story before bed time.

So pardon me while I fall down laughing.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 18/09/2015 08:28:59
Nothing new or unusual about UK funding bodies. The Pyramids and the Taj Mahal were built whilst peasants starved - indeed by starving peasants. Homo sapiens is a very unsatisfactory species.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 18/09/2015 10:09:24
I am 70 years old. I have seen much adversity, wickedness, and suffering in this world but I have never succumbed to such ... indifference to integrity, rectitude, and the scout law as uttered here by this "hero member".

The difficult thing about the scout law is that you must continue its guidance after you are 14 years old. I am, Mister, still true to my salt as assistant patrol leader of the Cherokees, Troop 152, Sequoia Council, Boy Scouts of America.

Some may snicker. The more fools they.

We were not put upon this earth to turn our faces from starving peasants or our brothers and sisters whose taxes support such hollow men and their shenanigans.

Hollow men, such as watch money earmarked for medical research to benefit the commonweal, but dumped instead into the hog trough of this "behavioral genetics" bill of goods about identical/fraternal twins and their vershtunken GCSE score.
Keep it civil... mod
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: evan_au on 18/09/2015 13:16:31
Quote from: Franklin_Uhuru
why are you and the rest of the naked scientists here beavering away to present it twice - (2 years old research as it ever was) as the hot news of the day?
Today I finally heard the recent Naked Genetics podcast "Hundreds and Thousands", which was talking about techniques assisting the search for genetic diseases in humans. The often subtle effects of genetic differences require very large sample sizes to extract a statistically significant result from the noise of many confounding factors and genes that have small individual effect (or, as pointed out in the "knockout" interview, sometimes no visible impact at all!).

A variety of techniques were mentioned, including cohort studies with various degrees of ethnic diversity, integrated medical & educational records, and twin studies.

While the segment on twin studies did mention the GCSE result in passing, it was mostly in the context of obtaining a large enough sample size which is unavailable in more fragmented countries. The majority of the interview was talking about other aspects of studying twins and their genetics.

So there were two interviews with the same guest within 2 months, but IMHO, it really wasn't the same paper presented twice.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 18/09/2015 16:50:29
You may look for yourself to see what "TheDoc" himself  wrote to introduce the  the naked scientist's entirely "incidental" second apotheosis of Dr. Plomin's research here in two months...

Quote
Professor Robert Plomin from Kings College London explains why twins are
so interesting to geneticists, and what they can tell us.

Keep off the national slurs - mod

PS: Are those genetic data being kept entirely out of the government's data banks? You wouldn't kid me now, would you?

NB: It is a well considered policy to stick to Lapsang Souchong tea for 8 hours before you write here.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/09/2015 19:06:03
This is a family forum - as the rules attest. Even though you are one of the moderator's little pals, kindly avoid using your garbage mouth like that again, Mister. You may have noticed that I am able to use quite colorful - but clean -- imagery without your gutter vocabulary. So take a hint, Buster.

Nevertheless, your bad manners have failed  (again) to distract me from my point....

This ... paper has produced no benefit to mankind except to sell newspapers of a dodgy type. Don't give me that tap dance about Binet. What is the use of this schlock to 21st century Britain -- or the world? Meanwhile. this dog has eaten up scarce medical research dollars and those valid areas of research that have a chance of benefiting people -- have (Wait for it!) ---gone wanting for funds.

You seem to have allowed a word that's been used on this forum before to distract you from actually addressing the point. The paper did, and does, make a contribution.
It provides the evidence to undermine the eugenics nuts and so on- yet you would ban it because you don't like the way some people would misinterpret it.

this is a science forum and, while I apologise for any offence caused by my language, I wonder which you think is more offensive?
The truth, but including a naughty word, or a politely worded lie like this one "I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup."

No such assumption was made.
you know that.
You refuse to accept that you were simply wrong.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/09/2015 20:16:35
I used a "rude" word- actually a corruption of  the Norwegian word for dirt- to describe some people who I'm sure we agree are pretty despicable. The only people I directly insulted are dead (and probably deserved the description). And, it wasn't with "impunity" as you put it; I got it deleted and my knuckles wrapped.
Bill was banned for repeated overt racism against white people, for insulting people here on the site and, above all for breaking the rules.
Do you really not understand the difference.
Among other things the problem with an ad hom attack isn't so much that it's rude- the big problem is that it is a logical fallacy. It is implicitly dishonest. That's what you got canned for.

Also, as usual, you have missed the point.
You made the assertion that the paper says (or implies) that there is an"assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.".
Others have pointed out that they do not make (or imply) that assumption
So, it falls to you to prove your allegation.

That's the way it works; if you say something, you are expected to be able to back it up.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: dlorde on 18/09/2015 23:22:08
Franklin's still unable to muster an argument, I see.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 18/09/2015 23:39:05
Keep off the national & professional slurs - mod


Mr. Moderator how is it a professional slur to point out your friend's personal interest in disparaging the sexist nature of Plomin's paper, Hmmm?


Now can we get back to how the funds for Plomin's research were diverted by the government ...away from things like Parkinson's disease?

Gosh, I hope that none of these contributors come down with Parkinson's like so many other Brits!

Mr. Moderator! Why did you change my text from "gentlemen" to "contributors"? And if you have such delicate sensitivity, why do you fail to show me the courtesy of signing your own name to your interference?

Oh ! The Humanity!
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: evan_au on 18/09/2015 23:57:34
Quote from: Pecos_Bill
I am reading, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer.
Reading about Josef Mengele's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele) experiments on twins is sickening. His disdain for certain national groups allowed him to ignore the medical motto of "Do No Harm". Today's "Informed Consent" and Ethics Committees evidently did not cross his mind.

But that is no reason to rubbish twin studies. Subject to modern controls, they are a valuable and productive area of research, assisting hypothesis creation and confirmation, well before any underlying causes are discovered. They significantly reduce the confounding factors in other types of study.

Even better, prospective longitudinal studies of twins (such as Prof Plomin discussed) assist untangling cause and effect. Studies that take place at a single point in time can only show correlation, which does not demonstrate cause & effect.

So the real problem here is not the twin studies, but in mental attitude; viewing people with certain capabilities, or coming from certain national or ethnic origins with disdain. When polemic labels people like this, the perpetrators feel free to ignore any logic or humanity in what other parties say or do, and see no need to respond to it in a humane or logically sound way, based on objective evidence. I feel this is the fundamental error of the ad-hominem argument on a website.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 19/09/2015 00:08:38
The real problem is that research funds are diverted to ridiculous beetle tracking studies of no tangible benefit-- like Plomin's research-- by faceless government pooh-bahs while the tax payers who foot the bill groan under afflictions like MS or Parkinson's whose research is starved for funds  like the red haired step-child of British medicine.

There and it doesn't take 500 words of bloviating verbiage to say it.

Anything that is true can be explained in 5 sentences or so. Only deceptions need several paragraphs.
It is true that you can insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you in 5 sentences or less (the ad hominem argument).
To present a clear, logical argument in 5 sentences or less is much more difficult.


And I am yet to hear how this mountain of genetic data will be kept out of secret government data bases in Britain or America.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: dlorde on 19/09/2015 00:12:50
So the real problem here is not the twin studies, but in mental attitude; viewing people with certain capabilities, or coming from certain national or ethnic origins with disdain. When polemic labels people like this, the perpetrators feel free to ignore any logic or humanity in what other parties say or do, and see no need to respond to it in a humane or logically sound way, based on objective evidence. I feel this is the fundamental error of the ad-hominem argument on a website.
Yeah, but when someone feels so strongly that the issues are so important that something must be done, nothing quite matches a rant on an internet forum for the feeling that one has made a contribution...  [::)]
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 19/09/2015 00:18:02
Quote
And I am yet to hear how this mountain of genetic data will be kept out of secret government data bases in Britain or America.

Will you guarantee this data will not be misused, Bub, or the cat's mother?

In fact, how would you know if Dr. Plomin was fronting for the United States National Spook Agency?

It's an easy answer. Unless another Snowden popped up, you wouldn't.

Would you Mr. "Hero Menber" ?


*********************

Reader,

I don't come here to speak to any of the gentlemen and scholars who preen themselves so comically in this forum.

I come to speak to you

You whose tax money is squandered on this feckless "research. You who are excluded from the high table by these people's poorly concealed discrimination. Yes, and you who are menaced by the useless promises made by these people that genetic data isn't being eagerly hoovered up by your government.

Don't let these people lead you up the garden path.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 19/09/2015 04:08:58
FLASH!      FLASH!     FLASH!

In breaking news this evening. I have read the following in The Guardian...

Ethnic minority students less likely to win university places[1.]

The story notes...

Quote
In the case of medical sciences, the figures suggest more than 360 ethnic minority students were turned down for places that the Ucas forecast suggests they should have gained at leading Russell Group universities, over the five years of data.


The Naked Scientist's official  ideological line is that Plomin's paper is innocent of any discriminatory intent.

Viewed in that context the fervid efforts of these white men in this Physiology & Medicine forum to assert the innocent nature of Plomin's research in the face of denying admission  to 360 non-white students in favor of white students is pungently reminiscent of the Milpitas tidal flats --to say the least.

Such silent complicity in depriving 360 deserving students of color from a medical career  is a shame and a stench on my own white skin and every other decent white man in the world..



[1.] http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/sep/18/ethnic-minority-students-less-likely-to-win-university-places
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/09/2015 10:16:19

Anything that is true can be explained in 5 sentences or so. Only deceptions need several paragraphs.

OK, In five sentences (or less, if you like) please explain why the difference between the exam scores of identical twins is less than the difference between exam scores of fraternal twins.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/09/2015 10:18:10


Mr. Moderator how is it a professional slur to point out your friend's personal interest in disparaging the sexist nature of Plomin's paper, Hmmm?

Because the "personal interest" only exists in your imagination and the paper isn't sexist.


You do realise you are heading for a ban again, don't you?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 19/09/2015 10:52:04
I am well aware of the risks incurred by anyone who points out ... discrimination against non-white people and their white allies like me.

360 colored people denied an equal education over 5 years works out to 72 per year.  72 colored people denied per year in medicine alone...
Stay away from character assassination and conspiracy theories - Mod

Uhuru!  Ban me and be damned. You will never ban the peoples' thirst for justice.

#stillyes



Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/09/2015 12:51:44
Of course we are aware of it.
It's not news.
It also has nothing much to do with the topic.(though I'm impressed with the progress that has been made since when I was a student because  they quote a relative imbalance of only 1 or 2 % and it was a lot worse than that).

Now, can you please try to actually answer the points that have been raised for example

OK, In five sentences (or less, if you like) please explain why the difference between the exam scores of identical twins is less than the difference between exam scores of fraternal twins.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 19/09/2015 17:18:27
Kindly explain how  this interest in the genetic makeup of people in relation to GCSE scores is  innocent among persons of your character.

I mean the character of persons who upon hearing that "only" 70 colored people have been unjustly denied their rightful medical education per year  exclaim, "Hurrah for us!"

I mean the character of people who banished Pecos_Bill ( and continue to threaten me) for the "incivility" of questioning the motives of this paper and you people here.

Dr.  Plomin could have chosen any number of factors to compare these twins' performance, but he choose their GSCE scores because it was "convenient".

I am a Californian. I am  painfully aware of what Texans like Dr. Plomin regard as too often find  "convenient" in regards to people of color. Just yesterday in Irving they handcuffed a young muslim boy and dragged him off to jail for making a "bomb hoax". His English teacher had discovered a homebrew alarm clock as a science project when it beeped in his bag and screamed."It's a terrorist bomb!" They don't do that for white quarterbacks, Hoss.

So it isn't for me to show that Plomin's work and the naked scientists' fervid cheerleading here are discriminatory in sexism and racism.

Rather, show me that Plomin's motives . his "research" and the naked scientists intent are not motivated by racist and sexist ideological prejudice.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/09/2015 17:42:22
re. "Kindly explain how  this interest in the genetic makeup of people in relation to GCSE scores is  innocent among persons of your character."
Innocent till proven guilty.

Stop ignoring the question
OK, In five sentences (or less, if you like) please explain why the difference between the exam scores of identical twins is less than the difference between exam scores of fraternal twins.

Why not just admit that you can't answer the question.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 19/09/2015 19:34:50
...He is not the jury, but the defending advocate.

I am the plaintiff, this is a class action which I am pleading,  and you readers are the jury.

Mr. Evan_au. Moderator,Sir !  Listen up! The next time you butcher one of my posts without having the decency to sign your name. I will take a copy of the original here and repost it in bold type to show the readers your true nature.
The web server always attaches the editor's name to the bottom of the post (unless the post adds zero value, and I elect to delete the whole thing) - Mod
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/09/2015 20:31:23
Stop ignoring the question
OK, In five sentences (or less, if you like) please explain why the difference between the exam scores of identical twins is less than the difference between exam scores of fraternal twins.

Why not just admit that you can't answer the question.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: evan_au on 19/09/2015 23:49:56
Quote from: Franklin_Uhuru
I am yet to hear how this mountain of genetic data will be kept out of secret government data bases in Britain or America.
You should assume by default that anything you say or do, and anywhere you go may be monitored by the NSA (for USA) or GCHQ (for UK), or their domestic equivalents. The only question is whether they choose to do anything with that information.

Talking to a PhD candidate, a raw genome occupies about 270 GBytes (he was working on plants; I'm not sure how that compares to humans). It takes a lot of work to stitch it together and analyze the significant parts of it. It's easier to wait until the PhD student (or twin-studies researcher) publishes his paper (and store that), rather than store the raw data.

So the main barrier to security agencies collecting all data is the storage capacity to deal with it, and the processing power to analyze it. Legal barriers have proven somewhat porous.

One thing is certain - using encrypted communications that cross national borders immediately attracts attention...
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Franklin_Uhuru on 19/09/2015 23:53:18
In a separate thread of this forum, Readers, we discuss genetic "knockouts". This led to the question of whether the human race continues to evolve.

I speculate that the ability to recognize racist discrimination ... for its detriment to human survival is Darwinian evolution manifest before our eyes.

Quit the racist discrimination, already! Mod

Mr. Evan_au, Moderator, Sir. My use of the phrase "knuckle dragging throwbacks" CLEARLY applied to racists of all types - even Australians. NOT to Englishmen in particular. Which may lead the readers to wonder WHY you have assumed that it did. Why DID you assume that, Mister? And so blithely (and privily)  erase the whole paragraph? Play the man, Sir!

Describing anyone who doesn't agree with you (specifically those who are not of your country) as "knuckle dragging throwbacks" is a clear case of ad-hominem argument, and a racist mindset. It detracts from your argument about racism, and demeans you as a person. I attempted to preserve the morsel of logic in your post by editing out the insult. But to be honest, it is much easier for me to just delete the whole post when I see an offensive comment. Any attempt to restore material that has been deleted by a moderator will result in a ban. Moderator.

Members of the jury, consider what you have witnessed here in the light of my speculation. Because you had better hope that I am correct or a whole lot of people are doomed to die in food riots for the last sausage roll at Tesco.

*******
As to Evan_au's fanciful idea that it is not feasible to collect this genetic data, he reckons innocently without consideration of Big Data tools like Hadoop, the advances in computer hardware, or the terrier like determination of the NSA spooks to get their mitts on total data access of everyone.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 20/09/2015 10:36:05


Rather, show me that Plomin's motives . his "research" and the naked scientists intent are not motivated by racist and sexist ideological prejudice.

Because Plomin is a US citizen, and as Pecos Bill clearly stated, they wouldn't stoop so low. 
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: dlorde on 20/09/2015 15:12:36
Yawn... did Franklin explain why the difference between the exam scores of identical twins is less than the difference between exam scores of fraternal twins yet?
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: alancalverd on 20/09/2015 17:25:59
Quote
I am a Californian. I am  painfully aware of what Texans like Dr. Plomin regard as too often find  "convenient" in regards to people of color.

Quote
Robert J. Plomin (born 1948 in Chicago, Illinois) is an American psychologist best known for his work in twin studies and behavior genetics.

Aha! Mystery resolved. We are talking about two completely different people, and two completely different papers! The Chicagoan professor now working in London was studying the differences between twins, who for the most part tend to be the same color.
Title: Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/09/2015 17:37:10
It is not possible to broach the possibility that sexism and racism motivate the dogged insistence by the white men of this forum that Dr. Plomin's research is valid and a worthy expense for British tax-payers instead of research on cancer, multiple sclerosis, autism or what you will.

That is impossible because the "moderator" (for that is what he wants you to believe he is) will swoop in, butcher the text, and tell me to "quit with the racist slurs"
If you keep talking about "white men" then you will be keeping a record of your own racism and there won't be any argument about why you got banned will there?

Stop ignoring the question
OK, In five sentences (or less, if you like) please explain why the difference between the exam scores of identical twins is less than the difference between exam scores of fraternal twins.

Why not just admit that you can't answer the question.