Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: ukmicky on 26/11/2005 15:45:19
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Who believes in ghosts, There has never been any scientific proof that they do or
Indeed could exist and personally I would place the subject in the same category as
Astrology. Total crap. But what do you think
Michael (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa186%2Fukmicky%2Frofl.gif&hash=481319b762ee9d57cda15e90d2e83ee6)
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Ghosts - Crap
Astrology - Crap
Superstition - Crap
Religion - Biggest ever Crap (in MY opinion...In case all the religious folks who frequent this site think I'm proselytizing !)
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Have to agree - I don't see how ghosts could work. Also it's indicative, given the interest in them over many years, that there is no convincing evidence for their existence.
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I once saw something in an allegedly-haunted house that I can't explain. Whether that was indicative of the existence of ghosts or not, I can't say.
However, I don't dismiss the possibility of their existence out of hand. There are many mystical & occult traditions that say everything vibrates & that there are realms where those vibrations are such that we can't percieve them. Now that superstring theory is being bandied around, vibrations seem to be rather aposite. Maybe there's something in those mystical vibrations after all.
In fact, superstrings & quantum theory seem, if anything, to lend credence to much occult/mystical teaching - other dimensions, parallel universes etc. I have been a student of mysticism & the occult for a number of years & the more I learn about quantum theory, the more correlations I see. When I've learned a bit more I may well write an article on it. I'll keep you posted.
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I'll weigh in and say that ghosts are crap right along with astrology and religion. And, I've noticed a lot of modern physics leaves loopholes that "could" allow for such phenomena. This mostly leads me to say that the theroies that allow for this are flawed. My opinion - worth what you paid for it!
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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Is astrology crap?
True, much crap is talked about astrology, even by astrologers; but then, most science contains a lot of crap, which only many centuries later, future generations may be able to have the skills to separate the wheat from the chaff. But could there not nonetheless be a nugget of truth in astrology.
Astrology is somewhat different from the issue of ghosts in that it is at least as pseudoscience, in that it makes testable predictions (albeit, some of the predictions are clearly both vague and nonsense, but that does not preclude the possibility that more conservative applications of the pseudoscience might not prove more reasonable – the problem is often that when a model is taken too far it starts to produce nonsense, but that does not mean that the model is nonsense, only that it is limited). One interesting article I read some while back was some Enlightenment philosopher rubbishing the old wives tale about the moon controlling the tides – could we also be maybe making the same mistakes with some of the other predictions (and I use the term prediction, rather than explanations – the two are distinctly separate issues) that astrology professes to make?
I am generally of the opinion that one should not dismiss our ancestors as mere idiots. It is clear that their understanding of the universe was less sophisticated than our own, since they lacked many of the tools we have for investigation the extremes of our universe, and this may have lead them to oversimplify their explanation of the universe around them, but is oversimplification the same as erroneous observation?
The problem with ghosts is again firstly a matter of separating the explanation from the observation. What is the observation one is trying to explain?
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I read somewhere that the number of permutations available to astrologers is more than the number of people on the planet. I guess that could be used to support or deny the accuracy of the astrologer's art (it's definitely not a science).
There is much more 'out there' in the natural world than we are able to sense. Our senses filter out so much that we only experience a small part of what is happening. Other animals with different sensory thresholds (my cats for example) definitely experience things that we don't. But as Another_Someone says, it depends what experience we are trying to explain when it comes to 'ghosts'. I don't think they are dead people but I do think that there are experiences we have that suggest different planes of reality that we only sometimes get glimpses of.
Peter
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Reminds me of the astrologer in the Life of Brian (paraphrased, can't remember the details);
Astrologer: He will lead great nations, humble earthly empires, take onto his shoulders the sins of Man and stand at the right hand of God in glory!
Brian's Mum: Oh! That's Aquarius is it?
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OK, let me clarify what I meant about astrology.
I don't know of PerterClarke is correct that there are more permutations in astrology than people on the planet (I somewhat suspect it is hyperbole), but there are a very significant number of permutations available. Each permutation that may be observed can represent a different frequency of time. If there is any event that happens on this Earth in a repetitive fashion might then be matched against one or another celestial frequency.
In a world devoid of man made time keeping devices, and even devoid of any published calender, the use of the position of heavenly bodies to mark time, and to mark repetitions over time, would be eminently sensible.
The only question that then arises is how many of the qualities and events that astrologers profess to predict are repetitive in nature. We too, even in the modern world, seek to find repetition in our environment, whether it be in predicting the frequency of mass extinctions on this Earth, the frequency with which a volcano might erupt, or the time period of a nations economic cycle; we look for such repetitions. All the astrologers were doing was looking for the same types of repetition, but then expressing those repetitions by describing heavenly events that have the same repetition (given that they could not publish calenders, and the position of heavenly bodies was already public knowledge, thus it was the most sensible way for them to express the repetition).
Whether everything that the ancients believed to be occurring at fixed repetitive intervals was indeed so is open to debate. It is natural for anyone with an expertise in a given field to try and use his knowledge and expertise to explain as much as he can, and in doing so, will often overreach themselves in trying to explain more than they are capable of doing; but that is not to say that all they have tried to explain is inherently wrong, just that some part of it is wrong, and some part will also be right.
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quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver
There are many mystical & occult traditions that say everything vibrates & that there are realms where those vibrations are such that we can't percieve them. Now that superstring theory is being bandied around, vibrations seem to be rather aposite. Maybe there's something in those mystical vibrations after all.
In fact, superstrings & quantum theory seem, if anything, to lend credence to much occult/mystical teaching - other dimensions, parallel universes etc. I have been a student of mysticism & the occult for a number of years & the more I learn about quantum theory, the more correlations I see. When I've learned a bit more I may well write an article on it. I'll keep you posted.
The problem with using physical notions such a vibrations to explain ghosts is that such vibrations are not only inhuman, but inanimate. If they are to explain phenomena such as ghosts, one would have to ask whether they only explain human ghosts, or the ghosts of bacteria, and even the ghost of chairs (or at least, the ghosts of the trees that were cut down to make the chairs). Why do people only experience 'human' ghosts (or at most, the ghost of a dearly beloved pet), but not the ghost of everything else?
Either one has to start taking a more anthropocentric view of the laws of nature, akin to the religious conviction that man somehow has a special place in the universe, or one must somehow explain the preponderance of human ghosts in a world where as much that is not human exists, and dies, as that which is human – where are all of their ghosts?
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The human body is mainly water. The Earth's surface is mainly water. We have no problem with accepting that the sun & the moon affect oceans. Can it not be possible that the sun & moon (& maybe other heavenly bodies) affect the fluids in our bodies?
Plus, don't discount quantum entanglement as a possible basis for astrology
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ALso, please don't confuse the horoscopes in newspapers with real astrology. The 2 are as different as Yorkshire pudding & chicken tikka.
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WoooOOoooOOOOoOOOOOo !!....!!!
Eh ?....What was that ?
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WoooOOOoooOOOoooOOOoooOOO !!..
Eh ?...There it is again !!
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quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver
The human body is mainly water. The Earth's surface is mainly water. We have no problem with accepting that the sun & the moon affect oceans. Can it not be possible that the sun & moon (& maybe other heavenly bodies) affect the fluids in our bodies?
Plus, don't discount quantum entanglement as a possible basis for astrology
The point is that any such speculation regarding such mechanisms are irrelevant to the validity (or otherwise) of astrology. The validity of astrology rests upon its predictive ability, whether or not there is direct linkage.
The notion that the water in the human body would be much affected by the moon, let alone by Neptune, is not very plausible. The effect the moon has upon the tides is upon a very large body of water, and its effects upon a single human body, while it would exist, would be swamped in the noise of all the other effects that would dominate it.
There are many reasons why entanglement would not seem a relevant mechanism; the most pertinent is probably the very reason why you thought it might be pertinent, that it acts without regard to locality or distance. Since the major significance of the orbits of the planets are that they alter their position in space, any mechanism that would not be influenced by locality could not be influenced by orbital position. Beyond that, one would ask why entanglement between earthly particles and Jovian particles would be noticeable within the noise created by any entanglement one might have between earthly particles and particles within the sun, or within Alpha Centauri, or any other of the infinitely more particles elsewhere in the universe.
On the other hand, the effects of the moon upon our lives is far more pervasive in far more obvious and direct ways. Not only its effects upon the tides, but its effects upon the weather in general - there is far more likely to be a break in the weather at times of full moon and new moon than at other times. There is also the even more direct impact, away from the light pollution of modern industrial civilisation, it is an important night-time source of illumination, and so will effect the activity of human and non-humans alike during hours of darkness.
The direct effects, those of gravity and illumination, of the other planets are so negligible as to be swamped by the noise of everything else upon this Earth. On the other hand there are a number of possible scenarios in which they might have subtle effects (although, as I said, there is no prove any causal link between the orbit of the other planets in order to validate astrology, one merely needs to demonstrate coincidence of the frequency of events).
Firstly, humans have for millennia been using the stars for navigation, and thus consequently have observed the orbits of the planets, and used them as a calender. It has of recent years become apparent that long before humans invented the magnetic compass, many species of life (even some bacteria) were already using the Earth's magnetic field for navigation. Could it be that some animals were also observing the orbits of the planets, and acting upon those orbits?
Secondly, I have said that the direct gravitation and illuminatory effects of the other planets upon processes happening on Earth would be swamped by noise, but just as it is possible to create electronic filters that will resonate at a given frequency, and so lock on to a minute signal at that frequency within a background of noise, so too if there were some process upon the Earth that would resonate at a frequency similar to the orbital frequency of one of the other planets, it might lock on to that frequency.
Thirdly, we have been discussing on another thread the influence the orbits of the various planets have upon each others orbits. Since the entire biosphere is heavily dependent upon the orbit of the Earth around the sun, and so if that orbit is influenced by the adjacent orbits of Mars and Venus, or possibly even by the orbit of the massive Jupiter, so those planets would have an indirect effect upon the biosphere mediated by changes in the orbit of the Earth around the sun. Of all the scenarios, this is the most likely mode of influence.
Fourthly, the inner planets (Mercury and Venus) could, at certain times in their orbit, have an influence upon the solar wind, although the effect is likely to be very slight.
Fifthly, Mars and Jupiter have an influence upon the asteroid belt, and it is possible that at various times asteroids (possible only very small ones) are ejected from the belt, and depending upon position of Mars and Jupiter at the time, it may be that they might influence the trajectory of these miscreant asteroids, and thus influence the likelihood of their heading Earthward.
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quote:
The validity of astrology rests upon its predictive ability, whether or not there is direct linkage.
That is limitedly true of Western astrology, & especially of sun-sign astrology. Birth charts, however, (to which real astrologers pay much more heed) are focused more on personal development than predicting events.
Eastern systems such as Tibetan & Chinese Tzu-Wei are almost entirely concerned with personal attributes; how the positions of stars make us who we are. Their emphasis is much more on what to do & when would be a good or bad time to do it rather than predicting that a certain event will occur at such-and-such a time. It is used extensively by Chinese businessmen for deciding when would be a fortuitous time to begin a new enterprise. Couples use it for deciding on wedding days etc. It is also used for establishing compatibility in business or personal matters.
It is far from uncommon for a Chinese person to introduce themselves by stating their birth animal from the Chinese calendar.
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quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver
That is limitedly true of Western astrology, & especially of sun-sign astrology. Birth charts, however, (to which real astrologers pay much more heed) are focused more on personal development than predicting events.
Eastern systems such as Tibetan & Chinese Tzu-Wei are almost entirely concerned with personal attributes; how the positions of stars make us who we are. Their emphasis is much more on what to do & when would be a good or bad time to do it rather than predicting that a certain event will occur at such-and-such a time. It is used extensively by Chinese businessmen for deciding when would be a fortuitous time to begin a new enterprise. Couples use it for deciding on wedding days etc. It is also used for establishing compatibility in business or personal matters.
It is far from uncommon for a Chinese person to introduce themselves by stating their birth animal from the Chinese calendar.
Excepting that I did not use the term 'predicting events', but merely referred to 'prediction', I am not sure where the distinction lies?
When you talk of 'when would be a good or bad time to do it' are you not trying to predict outcomes of particular courses of action?
The only distinction I can see between 'predicting events' and predicting 'when would be a good or bad time to do it' is that the former might be regarded as more fatalistic (i.e. the events are immutable), whereas the latter would be looking predict the outcome of human choice within the context of prevailing conditions; but both are prediction, and in both cases the validity of the astrological tool is in its ability to predict. In neither case is any particular nature of linkage between prediction and astronomical events assumed, but all that is assumed is that astronomical observations can help predict outcomes on Earth, whether the outcomes be mere coincidence or causally linked cannot be known and is not relevant to the validity of the tool.
Even the use of birth signs does not presume a causal link between the planets and one's nature and character, but merely presumes that one's time of birth (as measured by the prevailing location of heavenly bodies) influences one's nature. That a baby born in summer should have a different temperament from one born in winter, or one born in spring, would be of no surprise to me; howsoever one were to measure the seasons. It is even possible that one's nature may be influenced by the year one is born is, at least insofar as it would effect the environment one is born into. Whether one can be so precise as to say that one can distinguish the nature of a person by whether they were born on the 11th of march or the 12th of march is something I am more dubious about.
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May I interject and ask that if Astrology is a bona fide science or pseudo science( or what ever you want to call it)...is it not unreasonable to assume that it would have an effect on not just humans but every living thing ?
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quote:
Originally posted by neilep
May I interject and ask that if Astrology is a bona fide science or pseudo science( or what ever you want to call it)...is it not unreasonable to assume that it would have an effect on not just humans but every living thing ?
Aside from the fact that I'm sure you meant to ask “is it not reasonable” or else “is it unreasonable”, rather than “is it not unreasonable” - otherwise, I would concur with your speculation.
Do you have any reason to believe it is, or is presumed to be, less appropriate to non-human living things?
That having been said, while it would be totally reasonable to assume it has no less an effect upon all living organisms, it does not follow that the nature of its effect would be the same for all organisms.
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I always thought the terminology of 'is it not unreasonable ' to be ok to say..ie: is it reasonable !.
..anyway..I have found the converstion here between you good people very interesting...and No, I don't really have a reason for my speculation aside from the fact that I thought it might be pertinent to make the point that the topic may not be specifically constrained to the human equation.
thanks for the great posts.
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I do not really want to comment, but i'd like to tell story.
A professor once asked his students if any of them believe in ghost and if any have sexual experience with a ghost.
Incredibly, one student at the back raised his hand. So the professor asked him to come to the center of the stage to tell his story about having sexual encounters with ghosts.
The student turned red in the face and said, "did you say ghosts? I thought you said goats! crap"
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Fellas, I just want to say one thing!
It is paranormal that we exist, here, living and breathing and typing and metabolizing substrates into products, and thinking and continuing. It is paranormal that from nothing, collections of fundamental atoms, over time we came into existance. It is paranormal that a collection of carbon-derived structures all link together in a spongey mesh within our skull to make us appreciate art, find the beauty in somebodies face, and endeavour to learn new things about the world. Life as we know it is so paranormal that I'm flabergasted that we're even here, and that this is possible!
So in this sense, who is to say there is no other level of existence? There is no evidence to suggest that there is, but we know at least there has been a level of existence before (we are in it now!). So because it has happened before, I think it's entirely possible that after we die, there is another layer to our existence. Things may exist in a completely different, paranormal way (relative to us).
All of the above is merely my opinion of course. But to think there may be other forms of existence in this realm isn't that far-out, surely!
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Well its not astrology, ghosts are actually is a form of energy that a human brain cannt recognize it generally but the fact is our brain is very powerful if you increase your concentration and can enhance your magnetic level then it will show you the ghosts like creatures !!!!
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Well its not astrology, ghosts are actually is a form of energy that a human brain cannt recognize it generally but the fact is our brain is very powerful if you increase your concentration and can enhance your magnetic level then it will show you the ghosts like creatures !!!!
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Not only a load of old tripe, but if you think I would follow the link of someone with such poor spelling and grammar, you are seriously mistaken.
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Dimz, I'll certainly grant you that life on this planet is a fluke. So, yes, I suppose you could use the term 'paranormal'.
But given that some claim to have seen and/or spoken to ghosts, if they exist, would they be only the ghosts of humans? Why not elephants, whales, ants and plankton? If you are going to include only humans in the ability to take on this new state of being, then from what point in our evolution do regard our ancestors to be human enough to become ghosts?
If we take Human as being those who came along over the past 50,000 years, then there should be around 100 billion ghosts. Would you not think that encounters with these ghosts would be quite frequent, under the circumstances?
If there are different levels of existence, I rather think that they would be completely separate from each other, rather than a 'progression' from the lowest to the highest.
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Don_1, if ghosts are around there might be animal ghosts as well as humans. Also, if ghosts were real, it does not automatically mean everything that dies turns into a ghost. Say in this space-time there are, for example, 5 levels of existence, and we only interact with the ghost one from time to time due to some crazy paranormal physics defying crazy stuff (and, of course, our own!). When people die they might mostly go to realm 1 or 2, rather than the ghost realm, for example. I have no reason to argue for this theory, but if ghosts were to exist, it's a possibility!
Also, many people who claim to be 'experts' in ghosts say that ghosts can also be accompanied by environmental things. For example, castle x has 'The Grey Lady' who was killed while doing her makeup with a handheld mirror. When you see her, sometimes she leaves behind a ghostly mirror that disappears after a few seconds. Obviously it's very corny and most likely going to be fabricated, but plenty of 'observers' have seen this sort of thing all over the world. So presuming that even items and environmental objects can be ghostified, presumably animals aren't such a big stretch!
This isn't backed up by anything, obviously. I'm just saying that there could be another level of existence after this one, which isn't that 'out there' when you consider how spectacularly extraordinary our own existence is!
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so much 4 the parallel universe?
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yes.. indeed ghosts exist.. proof? naaahhh...
there are no visible proof.. as much as I'd say, other things exist which we cannot see and hear.. but just the same we believe in them.. ghosts are real..
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Does it not strike you as a rather convenient coincidence that these tales of the The Grey Lady, The White Monk, The Squire's Daughter etc etc all seem to be centred on establishments doing their utmost to coax tourists in to spend huge wads of dosh??? There is nothing better than good old ghost story to attract business to your 18th. C. inn.
No. I'm sorry, but we, like all other life, are a lucky, yet complex, mish mash of chemicals, which just happen to occur in the right quantities in the right place at the right time. When we die, all our component parts will revert to whatever they were before they became a part of us, with the help of insects, fungi and plain simple chemical breakdown.
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So you think. Even you cannot say that for 100% ghosts do not exist. I don't see how the complex structure of many many many different amino acid chains culminate in a 'mish-mash' of a neuron, which all come together to produce emotions and such. The fact that you can think and logically debate is so abstract from compounds reacting with each other. The chemicals and fundamental building blocks may create and sustain us, but that doesn't mean that that is all we are confined to. Hence why I think there are paranormal traits about us.
An yeah as I said before (concerning the grey lady etc) it's a cliche theme and very very often is just to lure tourists in. I already said that. But when little old ladies in their house say they've seen a ghost I don't think that's to attract tourists. Most Haunted etc is a load of bullshit, I prefer to listen to people who I talk to face to face or from reliable sources.
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ghosts are real, same as old scientists claim the world to be flat, which was proven to be a sphere.
proof of ghosts are soon to be discovered. and after that, proof that we have souls and then comes the belief in God.. Not so complex as you might imagine..
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..... I don't see how the complex structure of many many many different amino acid chains culminate in a 'mish-mash' of a neuron, which all come together to produce emotions and such.
It is difficult to comprehend how all the necessary components for life came together in just the right place also. But here we are. But we are physical beings, we have mass. When we die, we decompose, no part of our mass leaves us for another world. Therefore, can you explain how something which is without mass can exist?
....... I prefer to listen to people who I talk to face to face or from reliable sources.
Reliable????????
proof of ghosts are soon to be discovered. and after that, proof that we have souls and then comes the belief in God.. Not so complex as you might imagine..
I can see that you are convinced and therefore not open to alternatives. I have no objection to anyone wishing to believe in God, but do you not realise, that according to your God, there can be no proof of his existence. He demands you have faith in him without any evidence, or at least, some, who claim to have spoken to him or someone who knows of someone who's brother's wife's third cousin twice removed's schoolfriend's sister's boyfriend's uncle, who claimed to have spoken to God, said you must have blind faith in God.
So I shall not hold my breath waiting for your proof of God, ghosts or anything of the sort.
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Reliable insofar as that they are most likely not fakes. Reliable wasn't the correct word, as any witness to something like a ghost can be mistaken or prone to autosuggestion/psychological tricks of the mind. But when you get quite a few people seeing the same thing who are apparently unrelated to each other in any way, it usually lends to something a bit more complex than just merely them seeing things that aren't there. Obviously it is very rare that something like this happens, which is why I haven't formed an opinion on the existence of ghosts! But I'm still always looking.
And also about the complex formation of our bodies and stuff, I don't necessarily think that everything that exists must have a mass! Perhaps mass is a property of matter in this... I don't know what to call it, dimension? I'm not sure on the word I'm looking for, but imagine if the mind was in another place where it holds no mass, but is still dependent on the brain (from matter). It's very very very difficult to understand, which is why I just want to know the point at which an electrical impulse attains properties different to it's usual properties (i.e when it becomes a 'thought' instead of just an electrical impulse!). Or some theory that explain how these impulses create these thoughts.
Perhaps there is no proof, and never shall be. I was just trying to say that everyone shouldn't be so quick to say that because there is no proof, that ghosts don't exist!
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I can see that you are convinced and therefore not open to alternatives. I have no objection to anyone wishing to believe in God, but do you not realise, that according to your God, there can be no proof of his existence. He demands you have faith in him without any evidence, or at least, some, who claim to have spoken to him or someone who knows of someone who's brother's wife's third cousin twice removed's schoolfriend's sister's boyfriend's uncle, who claimed to have spoken to God, said you must have blind faith in God.
So I shall not hold my breath waiting for your proof of God, ghosts or anything of the sort.
No please don't hold your breathe, lest you die, and your restless soul be condemn by God, and put it in a jar as evidence for those skeptics here. I want you alive here in this discussion. LOL..
You're right, My God does ask me to believe in him without further evidence aside from his words. As much as I believe in peace and love where there is also no evidence. Unless you take shakespears opera as evidence.
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It is difficult to hold any sort of regard for anything in the supernatural for one solid, inescapable reason. IT LACKS ANY FORM OF SCIENTIFIC Evidence or justification. As with religion, belief in the supernatural revolves around ones personal faith. Having faith that there are supernatural occurrences beyond the explicable can and do happen. Faith that in some cases, things 'just happen and cannot be explained'. This is ridiculous. All it takes is a bit of active questioning instead of simply taking things at face value. 'Oh i saw something blurry at the bottom on the garden, it MUST have been a ghost'. To behave in this way is ridiculous and quite simply defies logic.