Naked Science Forum

Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: yovav on 29/09/2020 05:37:18

Title: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 29/09/2020 05:37:18
Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
(Even before it was formed)
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: Kryptid on 29/09/2020 06:44:15
Why did you post this here instead of in the physics forum?
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: chris on 29/09/2020 12:16:10
I'm not really sure I understand the question. Can you clarify please.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 30/09/2020 10:50:19
Why did you post this here instead of in the physics forum?
I did not write here, I was transferred here
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 30/09/2020 10:51:25
'm not really sure I understand the que
Yes, is everything that is happening in our universe a result of what was before the Big bang?
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/09/2020 13:15:47
Do you understand that what you are asking is
"What does physics say about things where the laws of physics do not apply?"

And were you expecting much of an answer?
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: alancalverd on 30/09/2020 13:50:31
Everything that happens is either a result of everything that happened before, or magic.

I have seen no evidence of magic.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/09/2020 14:20:19
Everything that happens is either a result of everything that happened before, or magic.

I have seen no evidence of magic.
Then you need to study quantum mechanics.

In particular, I'd expect you to recognise that a particular nucleus decaying has no direct cause.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: alancalverd on 30/09/2020 18:56:00
None that is obvious to an outsider, but the fact that not all nuclei decay suggests that some have a cause that others do not, and whilst you may not be able to predict the moment of decay of any particular nucleus, we have adequate models to predict which artificial nuclides will be unstable.

Or magic, if you wish.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 30/09/2020 18:58:04
Do you understand that what you are asking is
"What does physics say about things where the laws of physics do not apply?"

And were you expecting much of an answer?
I loved the answer and at the same time a universe was created out of something to which physical laws could not be applied, so what? Is there a connection? There is no connection?
If there is no connection as you claim it is still not an absolute discount. Anyway this is an interesting question.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 30/09/2020 19:00:50
Everything that happens is either a result of everything that happened before, or magic.

I have seen no evidence of magic.
Interesting, and yet as you understand the same laws that apply to us did not exist before the formation of a place.
Still an issue that remains open to me.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 30/09/2020 19:06:05
Or magic, if you wish.
So what's the bottom line? Or its still in the fog.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 30/09/2020 19:07:31
Then you need to study quantum mechanics.

In particular, I'd expect you to recognise that a particular nucleus decaying has no direct cause.

The fact that he has no direct cause does not preclude the existence of an indirect cause
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/09/2020 19:11:05
Then you need to study quantum mechanics.

In particular, I'd expect you to recognise that a particular nucleus decaying has no direct cause.

The fact that he has no direct cause does not preclude the existence of an indirect cause
Then you need to study quantum mechanics.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: alancalverd on 30/09/2020 23:18:57

Interesting, and yet as you understand the same laws that apply to us did not exist before the formation of a place.


I have no reason to think that.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: evan_au on 01/10/2020 07:59:22
Quote from: Yovav
The fact that he has no direct cause does not preclude the existence of an indirect cause
Some interpretations of quantum theory assume that there are some "hidden variables" which account for quantum effects.
- The value of these hidden variables determine the outcome of quantum events, but it is only because we don't know the value of these hidden variables that quantum events look random.
- Some forms of hidden-variable interpretation have been shown to be invalid by Bell's experiments.
- But since there are an infinite number of potential hidden-value theories, some of them may still be valid.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_hidden-variable_theory

A more speculative idea is that many forms of nuclear decay may be triggered by the impact of solar neutrinos.
- Some nuclear decays are known to be triggered by solar neutrinos, but this goes beyond those known decays
- When the Earth is closest to the Sun (around January 4th), Solar neutrinos are slightly more intense than when Earth is farthest away on July 4th.
- This speculative idea suggested that many nuclear reactions would be slightly more frequent on Jan 4th than July 4th.
- I haven't heard much about it recently, so I assume that this has now been proven false.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 02/10/2020 12:11:46
Then you need to study quantum mechanics.

In particular, I'd expect you to recognise that a particular nucleus decaying has no direct cause.

The fact that he has no direct cause does not preclude the existence of an indirect cause
Another thing in the context of quantum physics is the aspiration that ends quantum physics begins a new field of research. A science that does not study phenomena that are outside of us. But investigates phenomena within us. Because it all depends on the receiver, the viewer and therefore if we change the attributes of the viewer, we will change the world he sees, he receives, he discovers.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2020 12:29:47
A science that does not study phenomena that are outside of us. But investigates phenomena within us.
The idea that there is a difference was called "vitalism". That idea held that there was something different about the things that made up living tissue and the things that made up inanimate objects.
This view is obviously incompatible with the observation that, for example, an oxygen atom in a rock is the same as an oxygen atom in me.
It was first  brought into serious doubt in  1828 when Wohler synthesized urea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%B6hler_synthesis

It has been comprehensively debunked by countless observations and experiments since then.

If you want to raise it on a science  web site you need to clearly explain- with evidence- why you think that this distinction
A science that does not study phenomena that are outside of us. But investigates phenomena within us.
is meaningful.

Exactly which observable phenomena do you have in mind?
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: alancalverd on 02/10/2020 14:58:42
A science that does not study phenomena that are outside of us. But investigates phenomena within us.

Anatomy? Physiology? Psychology? Or any of the slimy bits of medicine?
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 03/10/2020 11:39:21
Anatomy? Physiology? Psychology? Or any of the slimy bits of medicine?
Is there something that was not in it?
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: alancalverd on 03/10/2020 12:49:57
AFAIK anatomy, physiology etc are all about the stuff inherently inside ourselves. Some aspects of medicine like toxicology and trauma are about stuff that should be outside but isn't.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: Kryptid on 03/10/2020 17:43:26
Is there something that was not in it?

Not that we know of.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 05/10/2020 00:28:11
AFAIK anatomy, physiology etc are all about the stuff inherently inside ourselves. Some aspects of medicine like toxicology and trauma are about stuff that should be outside but isn't.
And what about our cognitive, our psychological abilities?
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 05/10/2020 00:30:01
Is there something that was not in it?

Not that we know of.
So you understand the consequences?
This means that all our dispersal of our peoples on the planet is a result from there.
Can you understand what that means?
It means that our solution, the secret of our life, is also there. The knowledge of how to reach peace is there.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: Kryptid on 05/10/2020 02:03:21
And what about our cognitive, our psychological abilities?

Physiology and psychology, just like alancalverd said.

So you understand the consequences?

The consequences of what? Can't you just spell things out plainly instead of phrasing them cryptically?

This means that all our dispersal of our peoples on the planet is a result from there.

From where? Africa? The Middle East?

Can you understand what that means?

Maybe if you'd quit asking us seemingly rhetorical questions and just come right out and tell us what you are talking about, we would.

It means that our solution, the secret of our life, is also there.

What is this "secret of our life" you are talking about? The essence of your posts keep sounding like you are talking about philosophy or spirituality instead of science.

The knowledge of how to reach peace is there.

How, by studying psychology? I feel that's only partly true. Some subset of people in our society are going to be violent no matter how well psychology is developed. We'd pretty much have to directly engineer our brains genetically or cybernetically in order to make ourselves a universally peaceful species. Conflict is in our nature.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 05/10/2020 04:32:16
And what about our cognitive, our psychological abilities?

Physiology and psychology, just like alancalverd said.

So you understand the consequences?

The consequences of what? Can't you just spell things out plainly instead of phrasing them cryptically?

This means that all our dispersal of our peoples on the planet is a result from there.

From where? Africa? The Middle East?

Can you understand what that means?

Maybe if you'd quit asking us seemingly rhetorical questions and just come right out and tell us what you are talking about, we would.

It means that our solution, the secret of our life, is also there.

What is this "secret of our life" you are talking about? The essence of your posts keep sounding like you are talking about philosophy or spirituality instead of science.

The knowledge of how to reach peace is there.

How, by studying psychology? I feel that's only partly true. Some subset of people in our society are going to be violent no matter how well psychology is developed. We'd pretty much have to directly engineer our brains genetically or cybernetically in order to make ourselves a universally peaceful species. Conflict is in our nature.
By the fact that all the formations of our will ties came from there. By the fact that the initial state was there and after that it was divided, into peoples, desires, opinions, hatred and love, hot and cold, all opposites.
And if you can restore the initial state.
Not in the way you are describing at the moment, but in correcting the ties in humanity, correcting the relationship between peoples. You will basically restore the initial state.
Is this a philosophy and not a science? Let's say for a moment you'm right.
Will we get to the point in time that it will turn from philosophy to science?
We still can not answer that.
Is conflict in our character?
Of our part. But if we can mix together, connect the same essences of each other with each other, we can also fix each other. And thence correct the general situation.
why?
Because we are connected in one system. A system of will, a system of thoughts in which each influences the other.
A kind of butterfly effect of intentions and thoughts.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: Kryptid on 05/10/2020 08:19:24
By the fact that all the formations of our will ties came from there.

Again, where is there? You're being vague again.

And if you can restore the initial state.

This is a sentence fragment.

but in correcting the ties in humanity, correcting the relationship between peoples.

And how do you propose we do that?

Will we get to the point in time that it will turn from philosophy to science?

Trying to figure out how to make people get along would be closest to psychology in terms of science.

Is conflict in our character?

Very much so. Just watch the news once in a while.

But if we can mix together, connect the same essences of each other with each other, we can also fix each other.

There you go again with being unclear. What do you mean by "essences" and "connecting" them? This sounds like it's still in the realm of spirituality or philosophy. If not, can you please spell it out in a way that can be easily understood by everyone?
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: alancalverd on 05/10/2020 12:12:15
People are collaborative and competitive. Hence families, family feuds, team games, and wars. Some people take advantage of these inherent and inherently contradictory characteristics, and become business leaders or football managers. Scum with no discernible talent for anything else, become priests or politicians.   
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 05/10/2020 14:55:08
People are collaborative and competitive. Hence families, family feuds, team games, and wars. Some people take advantage of these inherent and inherently contradictory characteristics, and become business leaders or football managers. Scum with no discernible talent for anything else, become priests or politicians.   
You're right. But even that is so deterministic.
How to incorporate a scientific solution in a field that is so broad. This is a question.
And again, I do not know what the solution is, but I think we need to find the root, the root of what?
To what we are, to who we are, to the material from which we are made and from which we came.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 05/10/2020 14:59:13
By the fact that all the formations of our will ties came from there.

Again, where is there? You're being vague again.

And if you can restore the initial state.

This is a sentence fragment.

but in correcting the ties in humanity, correcting the relationship between peoples.

And how do you propose we do that?

Will we get to the point in time that it will turn from philosophy to science?

Trying to figure out how to make people get along would be closest to psychology in terms of science.

Is conflict in our character?

Very much so. Just watch the news once in a while.

But if we can mix together, connect the same essences of each other with each other, we can also fix each other.

There you go again with being unclear. What do you mean by "essences" and "connecting" them? This sounds like it's still in the realm of spirituality or philosophy. If not, can you please spell it out in a way that can be easily understood by everyone?
Lest you misunderstand, I understand and agree with you.
I'll think about how to be more precise and I'll reply to you as soon as I can at least arrange within me a clearer answer
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yor_on on 06/10/2020 14:24:43
We have 'laws' in physics. Not materialistic things that you can touch but laws. You might wonder if those laws would be a 'origin', and the way we define them is that without them this universe wouldn't be what it is today. Statistics describes some of them, as the average rate of decay for something radioactive. then we have conservation laws, symmetries etc. We also have 'properties' of f.ex specific particles, as bosons and fermions.But it doesn't tell us if those laws is a result or a origin?  Well, I might lean to immaterial laws but others won't. You can take a thought as a example of something immaterial that may have great consequences for us all.

=
spelling
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: alancalverd on 06/10/2020 20:12:40
I think you have put the cart before the horse. Scientific laws are nothing more than a distillation of what we have observed: descriptive, not prescriptive, and mostly adequately predictive. So in fact the laws are as they are because the universe is as it is, not the other way around.

The problem is that, if we assume the laws to be equally valid for back-projection (and on a short timescale, they are) we seem to arrive at a point universe some 14,000,000,000 years ago, with no idea of what preceded it or why it decided to expand.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yor_on on 07/10/2020 09:27:01
I know Alan, but you can also think of it as why those 'laws' are in existence. Some of them are disputable as laws, some of them come together as a result of several other. But f.ex 'c' is one constant that make no sense to me other than just as a law, locally defined.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/10/2020 12:13:14
There is no why.

Why presumes an ulterior motive, and is applicable to statute law (to prevent antisocial behavior, etc).

A physical law like F = GmM/r2 just describes what happens whether you drop a stone on your foot or a comet approaches a star. There is no ulterior motive, just a common observation.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 08/10/2020 04:51:12
There is no why.

Why presumes an ulterior motive, and is applicable to statute law (to prevent antisocial behavior, etc).

A physical law like F = GmM/r2 just describes what happens whether you drop a stone on your foot or a comet approaches a star. There is no ulterior motive, just a common observation.
By viewer features only, do not forget this figure.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: Bored chemist on 08/10/2020 08:42:32
By viewer features only, do not forget this figure.
What do you mean by that?
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 16/10/2020 08:45:10
By viewer features only, do not forget this figure.
What do you mean by that?
An ant looks at a 5 meter high pit and says: Wow what an infinity hole.
The same thing we are
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: alancalverd on 16/10/2020 22:19:46
Part of scientific education is appreciating the difference between a billion miles and infinity.
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: yovav on 17/10/2020 01:04:26
Part of scientific education is appreciating the difference between a billion miles and infinity.
It requires interpretation
Title: Re: Is our universe derived from the same details that created it?
Post by: alancalverd on 17/10/2020 11:13:03
No. A billion miles is an engineering problem. Infinity is a mathematical problem.