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QuoteQuote from: dlorde on 04/11/2013 22:33:21Don, if science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.Just be serious , come on :
Quote from: dlorde on 04/11/2013 22:33:21Don, if science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.
Don, if science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.
... see how even telepathy is studied scientifically by Sheldrake, for example .
1) You won't or can't address the glaring contradiction in your argument: that science must be "liberated" from materialism so it can be free to investigate or obtain information about the immaterial, which you've already said it cannot do. So what is the benefit of this "liberation?"
2) There is no materialist conspiracy
. First off, your history of the relationship between the Catholic church and scientists is factually inaccurate
They were generally in opposition
. Secondly, the fact that scientific discoveries were about material processes is not proof that people were prevented by some social force from attempting any other kind of investigation.
Chemists doing chemistry experiments will probably derive theories involving chemistry (ideas about molecules and atoms.) Physicists doing physics experiments will also come to conclusions having to do with physics. They are unlikely to spontaneously generate theories or conclusions about the immaterial things which have nothing to do with their own research. Science is not dominated by materialism, in the sense that it is being coerced by some authority to be that way. Scientific knowledge simply contains more information about the material world because that is what individual scientists chose to observe and measure, because that is what they can observe and measure, not because somebody forced them to or censored them.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 05/11/2013 17:14:25QuoteQuote from: dlorde on 04/11/2013 22:33:21Don, if science is suffering from a "mechanistic materialist world view ideology" or has been dominated by a "materialist mechanist dogmatic belief system" (yet, as you admit, is necessarily restricted to the material realm), then please explain how it has suffered, and how it would be different without it (e.g. how would it work?), and how it could be better as a result.Just be serious , come on :Just answer the question, come on.
... see how even telepathy is studied scientifically by Sheldrake, for example Quote.Yeah, right. Whatever happened to the telepathy revolution...?Maybe he's still looking for a way to distinguish between telepathy, clairvoyance, and remote viewing (etc.), or maybe the communication companies have bought him off, or are suppressing his work; but on the other hand, with no credible replications, maybe he's just chasing the magic butterfly of his imagination down the corridors of pseudoscience with a butterfly net of leaky protocols and flaky analysis
.
... when science will cease to "see " everything as being just material physical through just the key hole of materialism ,while pretending that all what it can see through that materialist mechanistic key hole is all what there is to reality , then science will realise the fact that there is more to reality than just that it has been confined to , science that tries to understand and explain reality thus .Science will be then put on a new path that might lead to new unimaginable discoveries as a result : do you want me to draw you a pic ?
When science will be liberated from materialism, ... science will be able to approach the parts of the whole pic of reality it can deal with empirically , instead of confining itself to just the material physical side of reality
... there are some significant parts of reality as a whole that will remain beyond both science's realm and beyond science's jurisdiction as well thus .
Did you take a close look at Sheldrake's scientific work on the subject ? Guess not : go back and check his evidence , and then we can talk when you would come back .
Sheldrake has been dealing with both telepathy and his morphic resonance theory scientifically , relatively speaking , he has been practicing science as scientists should do whe science would be liberated from materialism : that's 1 of the major reasons why most scientists , including yourself , has been considering his work as being a form of pseudo-science , while it is in fact the other way around : materialism in science is pseudo-science , Sheldrake has just been demolishing those materialist dogmatic orthodox beliefs idols in science that has been taken for granted as science by the materialist mainstream scientific priesthood and their followers .
I used to make a mistake when i used to say that science can deal only with the material (I see i was also a relative victim of materialism in science thus ) , science can rather deal with all it can observe, test , study ...empirically + not everything can be explained just via the laws of physics , not everything is just a matter of cause and effect thus , as mechanistic materialism assumes (Major examples ? : science cannot handle the nature or origins of consciousness,of human intellect ,of feelings ,of emotions , of memory ....science cannot handle the nature and origin of human conscience , science cannot explain life as a whole just via physics and chemistry , let alone life's origins , evolution and emergence ...fully) . Science has been assuming that everything is material physical, thanks to materialism = everything can be explained just by the laws of physics , or just by physics and chemistry , so, everything that would have "supernatural " claims would be , per definition, not only branded as unscientific , but also as ...false , including the claims of religions ....While science in fact should restrict itself only to what it can deal with empirically.......Science has been assuming that everything is material physical, thanks to materialism = everything can be explained just by the laws of physics , or just by physics and chemistry , so, everything that would have "supernatural " claims would be , per definition, not only branded as unscientific , but also as ...false , including the claims of religions ....While science in fact should restrict itself only to what it can deal with empirically .
The proof that God doesn't exist does exist. It is impossible for him to qualify as God. If he understands how he works, he has no magic left and reveals himself to be a natural being like ourselves. If he continues to run on magic which he doesn't understand, he falls far short of being God. He can't win.
... I like the quote from Nagel, I personally despise atheists who argue with religious groups about the existence of god, saying there is no proof he exists.. as they forget to close the factual statement of.. There is also no proof that he doesn't
the religion of atheism is founded on hypocritical beliefs and statements..
Quote from: SimpleEngineer on 06/11/2013 14:25:11... I like the quote from Nagel, I personally despise atheists who argue with religious groups about the existence of god, saying there is no proof he exists.. as they forget to close the factual statement of.. There is also no proof that he doesn'tTrue - although some ideas are so patently absurd they need convincing evidence of their reality to be credible, e.g. Russell's Teapot, Sagan's invisible dragon, the Tooth Fairy, God, etc. As the man said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Quotethe religion of atheism is founded on hypocritical beliefs and statements..Someone said 'atheism is a religion the way not collecting stamps is a hobby'. As an atheist myself, I'm not aware of having any religious-type organized beliefs, dogmas, rituals or activities. Despite a religious upbringing, I don't believe in god because it seems an absurd, contradictory, ill-defined idea, there's no plausible evidence for it, and a vast amount of circumstantial evidence that it's a product of human imagination. YMMV. If some plausible evidence appears, I'll consider it.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 05/11/2013 17:42:25I used to make a mistake when i used to say that science can deal only with the material (I see i was also a relative victim of materialism in science thus ) , science can rather deal with all it can observe, test , study ...empirically + not everything can be explained just via the laws of physics , not everything is just a matter of cause and effect thus , as mechanistic materialism assumes (Major examples ? : science cannot handle the nature or origins of consciousness,of human intellect ,of feelings ,of emotions , of memory ....science cannot handle the nature and origin of human conscience , science cannot explain life as a whole just via physics and chemistry , let alone life's origins , evolution and emergence ...fully) . Science has been assuming that everything is material physical, thanks to materialism = everything can be explained just by the laws of physics , or just by physics and chemistry , so, everything that would have "supernatural " claims would be , per definition, not only branded as unscientific , but also as ...false , including the claims of religions ....While science in fact should restrict itself only to what it can deal with empirically.......Science has been assuming that everything is material physical, thanks to materialism = everything can be explained just by the laws of physics , or just by physics and chemistry , so, everything that would have "supernatural " claims would be , per definition, not only branded as unscientific , but also as ...false , including the claims of religions ....While science in fact should restrict itself only to what it can deal with empirically .So science is responsible for including the immaterial in its conceptual framework of why things happen or how things happen, but it can't criticize ideas about the immaterial or falsify the immaterial in any way? Are you familiar with the phrase "writing a blank check"?
We are not talking here about God .Well, just for discussion's sake , the following then :God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved ; thousands of years of ancient philosophy , scholastics , modern philosophy ...should have convinced you already of that fact : trying to prove or disprove the existence of God was just a stupid and silly ancient Greek cultural habit that was taken over by christian scholastics , and by modern philosophy ,later on ...
Try to read carefully what i try to say : i do my best to clarify my statements : do yours in relation to yours as well, otherwise , this discussion would become absurd = an understatement thus .I said , science cannot be confined to just the material side of reality it has been taking as the whole real thing, thanks to materialism thus .So, science must therefore try to deal with the parts of reality it can deal with empirically , including some parts of the immaterial side of reality indirectly , such as the the telepathy claims of some people , such as the psychic claims of some people , such as dealing empirically with the natures and origins of consciousness, memory , feelings , emotions , human intellect .....indirectly and not as physical biological material processes ...they are not ,obviously.
... you just resort to attacking non-materialist world views such as religions..
You just resort to saying : my materialist belief is better than yours = what kindda silly childish 'reasoning " is this then ? Amazing .
... science must therefore try to deal with the parts of reality it can deal with empirically , including some parts of the immaterial side of reality indirectly , such as the the telepathy claims of some people , such as the psychic claims of some people , such as dealing empirically with the natures and origins of consciousness, memory , feelings , emotions , human intellect .....indirectly and not as physical biological material processes ...they are not ,obviously.
... I said science will be able to expand its realm ...when science will be liberated from materialism , not earlier : the materialist current 'scientific world view " would , per definition, only dismiss non-material non-physical non-biological processes , or would just reduce them to material physical biological ones : major examples ? : consciousness , human intellect , the immaterial side of life , the nature of feelings emotions ......the nature of human love ...So, i talk about what science actually is and therefore should be , without materialism thus ...when science will cease thus to reduce the whole reality to just physics and chemistry ,once again .
dlorde , Cheryl :Time up, sorry :Try to read carefully what i say , once again :I said science will be able to expand its realm ...when science will be liberated from materialism , not earlier : the materialist current 'scientific world view " would , per definition, only dismiss non-material non-physical non-biological processes , or would just reduce them to material physical biological ones : major examples ? : consciousness , human intellect , the immaterial side of life , the nature of feelings emotions ......the nature of human love ...So, i talk about what science actually is and therefore should be , without materialism thus ...when science will cease thus to reduce the whole reality to just physics and chemistry ,once again .