Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: Exodus on 04/05/2003 22:58:52
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A question that always bungles the brain! What was there before space and how big is space, isn't it still expanding?
Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem...
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I had a bit of a cool-sounding theory in my mind a while ago ... here it is :p
Okay, this is my idea of time
As an analogy, reality is like a big stack of 2D planes, imagine a pile of paper. Each instant in time is like a whole reality in itself, it is one of these planes. Each time a new instant happens, everything moves up one plane. There is no such thing as momentum! Apparent movement is just the difference between the objects in each plane. Time is the 3D stack of planes! In this analogy, Time is the third dimension :)
So in our reality, there is a gigantic stack of 3D spaces, in a 4D .. um ... hyper-space! Each instant in time, everything moves up one space :)
I jokingly talked of starting a religon based on this with one of my friends :p The being that stacked up the spaces and started time is the god we named "The Stacker". Time started when Stacker piled up the spaces ^_^ When the pile of spaces runs out, time ends :) The Stacker put everything in the universe in a single-dimension point on in the very first 3D space, which exploded to be the Big Bang :)
This cool cartoon book called "Euclid Rules, OK" I found in the library made me start thinking about 4D a while ago :p
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Our current view of each dimension is based on a linear premise. Even time we see in a linear fashion. I heard that the North American Native people view time as circular; they don't worry if something passes them because they can catch it next time around. If you observe nature, most things are an elaborate pattern, not straight lines. Everything is always moving in a pattern, even an object that appears to be static. Though it appears to be static, from a macro view it's actually moving with the planet, solar system, galaxy...and from a micro view it's moving with the molecules, atoms, quarks...so the movement is just not apparent to us.
Maybe everything is simultaneous. There is only now, for that is all we can experience. Quantumcat, I like your analogy of the stacked papers. Wherever we happen to be as we move through the stack is experienced as now, and yet all layers exist at all times. Matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. Could this explain why people "see" ghosts, why prophets "see" the future, or how remote viewing works?
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Anyone else got any ideas? I'm not very religious so i'm looking at a scientific reason...
Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem...
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Some people have suggested that 'ghosts' are in fact manifestations of quantum effects and due to the existence of parallel universes of which we occasionally get a glimpse.
Pat
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That sounds like people trying to make superstition be taken seriously ! *cough*itscrap*cough*
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Quantumcat, I think Pat has an interesting idea. Just because we can't see or measure something yet doesn't mean it's not there. Remember how they ridiculed Louis Pasteur at his idea of "bugs" too minute to see?
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I agree with pat, Time is something we don't fully understand and i believe that ghosts are people in a parallel universe.
Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem...
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ah ... if you say so :p
But why is there no evidence of ghosts? Always just stories or very blurry photographs. Also no one agrees on exactly what a ghost is. Sometimes they can pick up objects, sometimes they can't; sometimes they look like the people who they used to be, somethings they are undefinable white whispy shapes.
If ghosts really can happen, shouldn't it be an agreed fact as to exactly what one is? Otherwise it seems it's just a fairy-tale idea that people make up ... I mean, no one agrees on exactly what the Easter Bunny looks like, do they? Or dragons? Or fairies? And also, if they are to be taken seriously, there should be some real scientific evidence, with proper instruments taking proper measurements, by proper scientists, published in proper journals; not people who want to sell books to supernatural-phenomena-hungry people and will make absolutely anything up to do so.
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We dream don't we? How do you photograph, quantify, or otherwise prove dreams exist? Most people believe in dreams though, because they have "seen" them themselves. We can study and measure body rhythms, electrical brain activity and such, but that still doesn't allow us to see dreams other than our own.
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That's the whole point .... all individuals agree on what exactly a dream is, even though they are different and have experienced it seperately to the others who also agree on what a dream is. The seperate individuals all agree, so it has to be real! People who have never been introduced to the idea of a "ghost" will never say they've seen one, though someone who has never been told the idea of a "dream" will still say they've experienced something that the rest of us agree that a dream is. I remember until I was about eight or so, I used to wonder what on earth the well-known "pins and needles" sensation was, and if I was the only person who experienced it, and whether it was something that everyone experienced. I asked someone and was told it was called "pins and needles". If the "pins and needles" was a made-up idea, I couldn't have experienced it without previously knowing what it was. People experience "ghosts" because they have already been told what the general idea of a "ghost" is, and so pretend that they have experienced it when they haven't. They can't say they've experienced it if they haven't already been told what a "ghost" is. Since the idea of "ghost" is vague and lacking detail, people put their own detail into it and that's why people's experiences of "ghosts" are different. Whereas if it is a real thing the details will stay the same no matter what, even if the general definition is vague, so the person cannot put their own details into their exoperience and therefore all experiences of this object will be the same!!!! Which means it has to be real!!!! People's experiences of ghosts are all different, therefore they do not exist!!!!!!!!!! I think I've just repeated myself over and over and I apologise, but do you understand what I am saying?!?!?!?!
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I just read over what I said and it sounds confusing, but I hope that you understand it and see where I am coming from when I say ghosts are not real and cannot be.
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Mmm.. TV and other media does give 'may be' the wrong idea about ghost, but how do you know that ghosts don't exist in some other forms? People cannot prove this.
I sort of understand what you are trying to say, Quantum. I just like to be open-minded and accept both side of the argument.
Angel
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Good on you for trying to be open-minded, I have a bad habit of being closed-minded in arguments -_-'
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A group of german scientists carried out an intrighing experiment last year in which they placed a series of volunteers in a dark room and aligned them at different angles to the earth's magnetic field. The subjects were asked to report when they could see a light that was being shone towards them. The experiment began with the light switched off and the brightness was gradually increased until the subject became aware of it.
The researchers found that a significant number of the subjects became aware of the lamp much more quickly (i.e. when it was much dimmer) when they were aligned with the earth's magnetic field than when placed at other angles. At the time this was suggested as a model by which birds might use the earth's magnetic field to perform the feats of navigation demonstrated by homing pigeons or during annual migrations.
But more importantly, this work demonstrates that the sensitivity of our visual perception can be altered by external influences, including possibly the earth's magnetic field. Not all the subjects in the study performed in the same way - in some there was no difference - but what if ghosts are merely a phenomenon that lies outside of our normal range of sensory sensitivity and other factors - your attitude to the earth's magnetic field - disclose them to you. This might explain a) why some people see them whilst others cannot and b) 1 of 2 people together in a room can see the phenomenon whilst another one can't - because they are at different angles to the magnetic field...
Just trying to put the cat among the pigeons !!
Here's the reference to the show in which we talked about this experiment :
Click on "full length text" - it's the top story.
http://nakedscientists.com/html/shows/2002.05.12.htm
TNS
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how can you make that a fair experiment... surely peoples vision varies and they'd need to do a huge study to prove it...
i'm not entirely convinced
Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem...
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Simple - each person is their own control.
You place them at a series of different angles to the earth's magnetic fried and repeat the 'lamp awareness test' at each angle for each person.
Repeatedly the experimenters found that their subjects could detect a much lower lamp intensity when they were aligned with the earth's magnetic field than when they were not.
TNS
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oh, ok. Sounds pretty freaky!
Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem...
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quote:
Originally posted by Quantumcat
That's the whole point .... all individuals agree on what exactly a dream is, even though they are different and have experienced it seperately to the others who also agree on what a dream is. The seperate individuals all agree, so it has to be real! People who have never been introduced to the idea of a "ghost" will never say they've seen one, though someone who has never been told the idea of a "dream" will still say they've experienced something that the rest of us agree that a dream is. I remember until I was about eight or so, I used to wonder what on earth the well-known "pins and needles" sensation was, and if I was the only person who experienced it, and whether it was something that everyone experienced. I asked someone and was told it was called "pins and needles". If the "pins and needles" was a made-up idea, I couldn't have experienced it without previously knowing what it was. People experience "ghosts" because they have already been told what the general idea of a "ghost" is, and so pretend that they have experienced it when they haven't. They can't say they've experienced it if they haven't already been told what a "ghost" is. Since the idea of "ghost" is vague and lacking detail, people put their own detail into it and that's why people's experiences of "ghosts" are different. Whereas if it is a real thing the details will stay the same no matter what, even if the general definition is vague, so the person cannot put their own details into their exoperience and therefore all experiences of this object will be the same!!!! Which means it has to be real!!!! People's experiences of ghosts are all different, therefore they do not exist!!!!!!!!!! I think I've just repeated myself over and over and I apologise, but do you understand what I am saying?!?!?!?!
There have been cases where babies, too young to have been introduced to the idea of ghosts, have reacted and interacted with them. Then there's the animals that have reacted to them (most frequently dogs barking madly). Like Angel, I prefer to keep an open mind; it's hard to learn if your mind is closed. Ghosts may not have been proven but they haven't been disproven either.
When we die our matter is transformed into dirt, but what is our energy transformed to? Maybe that varies according to our will or the thought vibrations we hold.
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What do you mean by our "energy"?
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nothing...
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What was there before space?
With respect to our current knowledge, I say intelligence and time!
Intelligence is inversely proportional to space. Time on the other hand, was always here!
All it needed was to be recognized, and used as a reference point of a period.
Space is so big, it is infinite, we are smaller then the particles of an atom's substructure of particles with respect to the universe.
The objects in space are going outward, presenting the illusion that space seems to be expanding.
Also, we can maybe say, "all of this universe existed in a jar, full of least energized photons, ("black matter"), sitting on some giant entity's shelf, with other jars alike. With this is also a giant's universe such the same and so on."
Maybe in the perspective of the giant, our "big bang" was really a "small fart", activated, buy loading an cyclotron accelerator and flipping the on switch.
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donchiragjain10036, I was curious why you dug this topic up from 2003, especially as your post comprised a single word.
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donchiragjain10036, I was curious why you dug this topic up from 2003, especially as your post comprised a single word.
Just to get my entusiastic attention, blind to the time stamp UGH
[:0] 6 years!!!! @#$%^&*, [xx(] do I feel sheepish, suckered me. [:-'(]