Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Alan McDougall on 09/09/2008 13:09:54
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I think Jesus was/is much more influential than Muhammud, Muhammud was influenced by Jesus not the reverse
There are many other lists, but they all differ , some placing Newton ahead of Jesus. the only cosistent thing about them is Muhammad , bless his soul is always first.
What does the forum think?
Perhaps we can make our own list and compare it with others
Muhammad
Jesus
Francis Bacon
Socrates
Isaac Newton
Leonardo da Vinci
Nicolaus Copernicus
Albert Einstein
Moses
Louis Pasteur
Nikola Tesla
Martin Luther
Abraham Lincoln
Euclid
Gregor Mendel
Alexander Graham Bell !
Simon Bolivar
Orville and Wilbur Wright
Archimedes
FROM HERE DOWN THE WATERS GET MUDDY
Alan
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JFK
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Ghandi
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Now there’s a poser. The list would include scientists, astronomers, religious leaders, politicians and perhaps artists. It is possible that some of those who would be included may not have actually existed, but rather have been fictitious characters invented to suit or fulfil a particular purpose.
Moses, for example, did he really exist or is he a fictional character from a book written by a number of scholars to try to point mankind in the direction of harmony.
I would hazard a guess that the earliest influential person would perhaps be the Biblical character ‘Eve (if the Bible is to be believed). In giving the forbidden fruit to Adam, she made us all capable of sin (or so the Bible would have us believe). (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Fangelic014.gif&hash=09bbb44f7c454a2088da4e30561b3b2c) (http://www.freesmileys.org)Incidentally, the apple is not the forbidden fruit, no name is given to the forbidden fruit. Perhaps Eve herself was the forbidden fruit???(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Flove074.gif&hash=d97f803f831e1451502c449f29dd1aa7) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
As for the latest, perhaps Martin Luther, Nelson Mandela, Prof. Steven Hawking or George WWW. Bush.com??? (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Fviolent069.gif&hash=9ac94f5256c104ae2988f47d7962aa81) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
Remember, the most influential people need not be an influence for the better.
As for my top of the list, I have to eliminate Eve on the grounds that the whole episode is fiction, the person & the event must surely be seen as a fairy tail. I think it has to be Narmer (3100 BC), the first Pharaoh of the first dynasty of Egypt. Credited with the unification of Upper & Lower Egypt, although only a handful of people have probably heard of him, he should be credited with laying the foundation of modern civilisation. Although we may not realise it, his influence touches all of us.
Second on my list (it has to follow from the first) would be Scorpion I (3200/3300 BC) a protodynastic king of Upper Egypt and the earliest documented person. He gets my 2nd place for being the first person worthy of documentation. Although the name of Tiu (who would have predated him, and possibly be the first ever recorded person) is mentioned on the Palermo Stone, nothing is known about him. Perhaps he should be joint 2nd for being the first person thought worthy of recording.
My 3rd (or should it be 4th place) is perhaps a little odd for an atheist. I pick Moses. Whether he existed in reality or purely in fiction is irrelevant. If he did exist, he did not speak to ‘God’ in a burning bush on Mount Sinai. Strange isn’t it how even today, when someone encounters ‘God’ or ‘aliens’, they are always alone??? But I believe he may have existed and was a very intellectual man, with knowledge of volcanic activity and it’s consequences. His influence on us, the 10 commandments.
Others, perhaps a little more obvious would include (in no particular order);
Darwin, Newton, Copernicus, the Wright Bros., da Vinci, Galileo, Julius Caesar, Henry VIII, John Lenon, JFK, Churchill, Lincoln, Baird and can I also slip in....
The Marx Bros.(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Flaughing021.gif&hash=d294bd8d3ea30111f08d0812b5d0316d) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
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I pick Moses ... His influence on us, the 10 commandments.
[:)]
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I love that, perhaps I should add Mel Brooks to my list.(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Flaughing011.gif&hash=af34cd5cf704a9bba27a56d6178177fd) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
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Any of the long line of Popes as they have been very influential and helped shape history.
Hitler and Ben Gurion as one helped the other to form Israel.
Oppenheimer for doing what he did before others cold get the chance.
Ted Hoff for the invention of the microprocessor.
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ELVIS PRESLEY.. JOHN WAYNE,
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Clark Gable
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Florence Nightingale
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Rosalind Franklin
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Roosevelt,
Queen Elizebeth..Take your pick..
Princess Dianah
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The marx Bros.. were great!
Elenor Roosevelt
Hillary clinton
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The Dalai Lama
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Thomas Midgley had a large influence on the atmosphere,
he invented CFCs and added lead to gasoline ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgeley
So it could be said that he broke the sky, (ozone hole).
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Guys
Your suggestions are really interesting and I will compile a list from them later.
I started the thread deliberately with a most unsatisfactory ranking list. To avoid preconceptions
Thanks for the nice reponse
Alan
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I think any author of respected history books/articles must be influential if they are not unbiased !
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My first few
1) Jesus Christ
2) Isaac Newton
3) Albert Einstein
4) Richard Feynman
5) Gutenberg (print)
5) Winston Churchill
?
?
?
And so on........................?
Regards
Alan
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Guys
Your suggestions are really interesting and I will compile a list from them later.
But only five people responded, so what kind of list can you produce from that? Out of those five how many gave an actual reason as to why this person was influential? All you have is a list of names, in no particular order, this topic could just as easily be called "please list names of fictional and nonfictional people".
Look at those names, a large percentage are of made up people, made up from a book that has no resemblance to the original!
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Rosalind Franklin
Karen I'll second your choice of Rosalind Franklin of course
Nelson Mandela
Charles Darwin
Gilbert White
Marie and Pierre Curie
The Pankhursts and my gt uncle Hugh Franklin, who were all
suffragettes.
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Guys
Your suggestions are really interesting and I will compile a list from them later.
But only five people responded, so what kind of list can you produce from that? Out of those five how many gave an actual reason as to why this person was influential? All you have is a list of names, in no particular order, this topic could just as easily be called "please list names of fictional and nonfictional people".
Look at those names, a large percentage are of made up people, made up from a book that has no resemblance to the original!
Tetchy!
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Paul!!!! oh Paul!!!!!!! my bane on the forum ,what can I do to satisfy your critical mind?. There were more than five maybe you should count on your fingers.
But only five people responded, so what kind of list can you produce from that? Out of those five how many gave an actual reason as to why this person was influential? All you have is a list of names, in no particular order, this topic could just as easily be called "please list names of fictional and nonfictional people".
Look at those names, a large percentage are of made up people, made up from a book that has no resemblance to the original!
Regards
Alan
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Paul!!!! oh Paul!!!!!!! my bane on the forum ,what can I do to satisfy your critical mind?. There were more than five maybe you should count on your fingers.
But only five people responded, so what kind of list can you produce from that? Out of those five how many gave an actual reason as to why this person was influential? All you have is a list of names, in no particular order, this topic could just as easily be called "please list names of fictional and nonfictional people".
Look at those names, a large percentage are of made up people, made up from a book that has no resemblance to the original!
Regards
Alan
Fight, fight, fight, fight.
Handbags at dawn....yipeeeee!
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Make it Lady
Fight, fight, fight, fight.
Handbags at dawn....yipeeeee!
Not fighting gentle banality or maybe coming pandemonium
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Paul!!!! oh Paul!!!!!!! my bane on the forum ,what can I do to satisfy your critical mind?. There were more than five maybe you should count on your fingers.
Maybe you would like to borrow my fingers? There were more than five responses, but only five respondents. So I was quite correct when I said "But only five people responded". I am also correct when I say that the list is worthless and you can compile no data from it. How many people have given the same name? If you had names repeated by different people then you could begin to compile a list, but even then, a list from just five responses is worthless.
And again I say, if nobody gives reason as to why they chose then it is worthless data as expressed in the original question.
One responce is the name "Nelson Mandela", I suppose if I were a young black man who enjoyed bombing white folk in shopping centres them yes I would find him a personal influence, but I am not and He is not.
If I were a young woman with mental problems and like to sleep with members of the armed forces then Princess Diana would be an influence on my life, I am not and so she is not.
They are just names, plucked from the air.
Fight, fight, fight, fight.
Handbags at dawn....yipeeeee!
Alas it would not be a fair fight, should there be a time when I were in a position when Alan was on top of me (ermmmm, bad choice of words) I would simply win by default, the most handsome chap always wins in the end.
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Alas Paul you are correct most of the names given were born out of sarcasm
Maybe dear old Mandela is changed, he is 90 you know, and a lot better than our soon to be corrupt buffoon president. I will not name him the black gestapo might by looking at my posts.
You are killing me with subtle humour
Alan
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Pual and others who are interested
Here is my list for what it is worth
Note it is not about heroes our personal perceived greatness.
"IT IS WHO INFLUENCED HUMANITY THE MOST"
MY RANKING LIST
Jesus Christ
Iscaac Newton
Muhammad
Buddha
Confucius
St. Paul
Ts'ai Lun
Johann Gutenberg
Christopher Columbus
Albert Einstein
Louis Pasteur
Galileo Galilei
Aristotle
Euclid
Moses
Charles Darwin
Shih Huang Ti
Augustus Caesar
Nicolaus Copernicus
Antoine Laurent Lavoisier
Constantine the Great
James Watt
Michael Faraday
James Clerk Maxwell
Martin Luther
George Washington
Karl Marx
Orville and Wilbur Wright
Genghis Khan
Adam Smith
Edward de Vere
a.k.a. William Shakespeare
John Dalton
Alexander the Great
Napoleon Bonaparte
Thomas Edison
Antony van Leeuwenhoek
William T.G. Morton
Guglielmo Marconi
Adolf Hitler
Plato
Oliver Cromwell
Alexander Graham Bell
Alexander Fleming
John Locke
Ludwig van Beethoven
Werner Heisenberg
Louis Daguerre
Simon Bolivar
Rene Descartes
Michelangelo
Pope Urban II
'Umar ibn al-Khattab
Asoka
St. Augustine
William Harvey
Ernest Rutherford
John Calvin
Gregor Mendel
Max Planck
Joseph Lister
Nikolaus August Otto
Francisco Pizarro
Hernando Cortes
Thomas Jefferson
Queen Isabella I
Joseph Stalin
Julius Caesar
William the Conqueror
Sigmund Freud
Edward Jenner
Wilhelm Conrad Roentgen
Johann Sebastian Bach
Lao Tzu
Voltaire
Johannes Kepler
Enrico Fermi
Leonhard Euler
Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Nicoli Machiavelli
Thomas Malthus
John F. Kennedy
Gregory Pincus
Mani
Lenin
Sui Wen Ti
Vasco da Gama
Cyrus the Great
Peter the Great
Mao Zedong
Francis Bacon
Henry Ford
Mencius
Zoroaster
Queen Elizabeth I
Mikhail Gorbachev
Menes
Charlemagne
Homer
Justinian I
Mahavira
Well what are your views?
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A lot of these people have affected the lives of others but what do you mean by influence? There are so many meanings; some are benign and others malign - your list contains a mixture that compromises its meaning.
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Blake I agree with you about his long list!
Alan how could you praise Hitler and Stalin considering all of the
many despicable acts that they were both involved in.
Charlemagne nope.
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Rosalind Franklin (of course)
But I'd add Sir Christopher Wren because he changed the London and British architecture after the Great Fire of 1666,
Martin Luther King
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Alan how could you praise Hitler and Stalin considering all of the
many despicable acts that they were both involved in.
This all about influence through human history I did not praise Hitler, he and Stalin are in the list due to their impact on human history, it has nothing to do with good or evil
The adjectives I list below should indicate why I produced the list like I did
Influential effect affect powerful authoritative loved admired hero dominant respected prevailing enduring well spoken off hated deposed worshiped abhorred debased conqueror defender leader villain rogue good compassionate empathetic evil wicked
If the person had/has affect/ effect influence as above list "on all of humanity in history he/she belongs on the list" The list has nothing to with morals good or bad Marxism for instant brought untold suffering to countless people.[/color]
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But William the Conqueror began to change England for the better that's in retrospect I guess.
If you are classing monarchs like that: Think of HenryVIII.
In fact he was only legitimately married once and to his
brother's wife.
John Logie Baird for TV and Alexander Fleming - Pencillin
Also Ian Fleming was his cousin.
Churchill
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Influential effect affect powerful authoritative loved admired hero dominant respected prevailing enduring well spoken off hated deposed worshiped abhorred debased conqueror defender leader villain rogue good compassionate empathetic evil wicked
If the person had/has affect/ effect influence as above list "on all of humanity in history he/she belongs on the list" The list has nothing to with morals good or bad Marxism for instant brought untold suffering to countless people.[/color]
where are these goalposts, and will they be moved once again?
on all of humanity in history he/she belongs on the list
On all humanity! I would doubt that there is one single person who has done this. Can you provide one, one that is not in the bible or a religious text? Hold on, I doubt you could even name one from the bible or any religious text.
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I note that Charles Darwin, (mentioned above) is today going to receive an apology from the Church of England ...
By Jonathan Wynne-Jones, Religious Affairs Correspondent
13 Sep 2008
The Church of England will concede in a statement that it was over-defensive and over-emotional in dismissing Darwin's ideas. It will call "anti-evolutionary fervour" an "indictment" on the Church".
The bold move is certain to dismay sections of the Church that believe in creationism and regard Darwin's views as directly opposed to traditional Christian teaching.
The apology, which has been written by the Rev Dr Malcolm Brown, the Church's director of mission and public affairs, says that Christians, in their response to Darwin's theory of natural selection, repeated the mistakes they made in doubting Galileo's astronomy in the 17th century.
"The statement will read: Charles Darwin: 200 years from your birth, the Church of England owes you an apology for misunderstanding you and, by getting our first reaction wrong, encouraging others to misunderstand you still. We try to practise the old virtues of 'faith seeking understanding' and hope that makes some amends."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/2910447/Charles-Darwin-to-receive-apology-from-the-Church-of-England-for-rejecting-evolution.html
This apology comes 126 years after Darwin's death: but better late than never.
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Paul,
As new great people of influence come on the scene, the gaol posts might have to be moved. But can whe see anyone unseating Newton, Christ or Muhammad?
I generalised when I stated that those who belong on the list must have influenced all of human history When I keyed that in my mind was revolving around he whole list and I am sure you knew what I really meant
If there is one person who ha had an affect/effect or influence on most people my choice would be Jesus Christ
Alan
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Applogise to Darwin for what?
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Applogise to Darwin for what?
Darwin had a strong C of E faith and was insulted by the church
when he published the Origin of the Species.
Also by the 2nd captain of the Beagle, who disagreed with him
Robert Fitzroy, but we should all be grateful to this man for
inventing the forecasting systems that is now part of our lives
and he saved loads of sailors lives.
So he's another hero of mine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_FitzRoy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Beagle
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This apology to Darwin is as pointless as the Vatican's apology to Galileo.
Did the Catholic church ever apologise to Copernicus? If not, why not, I'm sure he is still waiting in his grave for it!!!???
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Don_1
I agree what nonsense , this church is abandoning all its beliefs until is becomes an atheistic anything is OK institution, that does not believe in God.
These priests in their long red or white ropes and splendor waving smoking lamps marching like zombies make me sick
This has absolutely nothing to do with following God and I am sure he looks at it with distaste
If humble Jesus tried to enter these halls of spender and preach the eternal truth and wisdom like he did, most likely he would be promply chased out
Alan
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Don_1
I agree what nonsense , this church is abandoning all its beliefs until is becomes an atheistic anything is OK institution, that does not believe in God.
These priests in their long red or white ropes and splendor waving smoking lamps marching like zombies make me sick
This has absolutely nothing to do with following God and I am sure he lookers at it with distaste
If humble Jesus tried to enter these halls of spender and preach the eternal truth and wisdom like he did, most likely he would be promply chased out
Alan
Alan if that is how you feel about religions, why did you mention a lot of men to do with faith in an earlier long post of yours?
EG Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, St. Paul. Lao Tzu?
It is a strange view I think.
But I think that scientific men or women in our present or historical pasts have changed the world for the better/worse.
Although at the top of my list it'll always be my first cousin
Rosalind Franklin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalind_Franklin
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=13151.0
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I think you have to decide whether by "influential" you mean the person who has had the most influence, or has affected the most people. To affect someone, you need not influence them directly.
Take the case of Kublai Khan. Most Chinese would probably not have heard of him, but there can be no doubt that Chinese culture was greatly affected by Mongol rule. As there are now well over a billion Chinese, that's a lot of people that he has indirectly influenced.
And what about Buddha? No-one has mentioned him yet (at least, I didn't notice it).
The philosophy of Karl Marx has affected untold people, as has that of Keynes (Capitalism).
Queen Victoria, in whose name half the world came under British influence and many countries still retain much culture and laws based on the British - USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, much of Africa, etc.
Or how about that ancient Greek bod who dreamed up democracy? (I think he was Greek)
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I think you have to decide whether by "influential" you mean the person who has had the most influence, or has affected the most people. To affect someone, you need not influence them directly.
Take the case of Kublai Khan. Most Chinese would probably not have heard of him, but there can be no doubt that Chinese culture was greatly affected by Mongol rule. As there are now well over a billion Chinese, that's a lot of people that he has indirectly influenced.
And what about Buddha? No-one has mentioned him yet (at least, I didn't notice it).
Doc yes Alan MacDougall has mentioned Buddha in a long post from yesterday.
The philosophy of Karl Marx has affected untold people, as has that of Keynes (Capitalism).
Queen Victoria, in whose name half the world came under British influence and many countries still retain much culture and laws based on the British - USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, much of Africa, etc.
Or how about that ancient Greek bod who dreamed up democracy? (I think he was Greek)
Yes Democracy is a Greek word. But I don't know who had thought it up.
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Rosalind
Alan if that is how you feel about religions, why did you mention a lot of men to do with faith in an earlier long post of yours?
EG Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, St. Paul. Lao Tzu?
It is a strange view I think
Rosalind
The list had nothing to do with my faith or position I think Paul's suggestion to use "Affect" instead of Influence is good.
Affect = (have an Effect on)
I have no argument with religious people who are true to what they believe, but the Church of England is supposed to believe in God Jesus and his teaching. But pandering and compromising, to dead atheists like Darwin does not impress me or I must say countless Church of England priests still active in the church, with many threatening to leave because the church is slowly allowing into the sacred halls of faith everything the church did not stand for.
So we can put all sorts of reprobates in positions of authority in the church and their private lives, no matter how depraved have nothing to do with the congregation. Bending previous sacred rules to the point they fall over to please the mob Call God by a false title like Allah The followers of Christ have died for their faith while the followers of Allah would have you die for their faith
Must we of the Emerald Island pander to you know who? or must the accept and adjust to our way of life Try beings an active Christian in their countries and reap the consequences
A person once said the peasants are revolting, his friend replied “yes I know I know [;D] [::)]
Alan
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Can anyone argue that the most influential people alive today are not Bill Gates & Tim Berners-Lee (inventor of the internet)?
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Can anyone argue that the most influential people alive today are not Bill Gates & Tim Berners-Lee (inventor of the internet)?
Currently more people have access to (and have been influenced by) Mr Gutenberg's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg) invention, than have access to the internet.
i.e. books , newspapers.
(Admittedly Mr Gutenberg is pushing up daisys).
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Is this topic going anywhere?
The goalposts get changed, and what does Alan mean by "influenced", does anyone know?
Is this just another topic where the terms are not defined and where there possibly is no, one, single answer. Quite frankly it all seems to be a waste of time.
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Can anyone argue that the most influential people alive today are not Bill Gates & Tim Berners-Lee (inventor of the internet)?
Currently more people have access to (and have been influenced by) Mr Gutenberg's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg) invention, than have access to the internet.
i.e. books , newspapers.
(Admittedly Mr Gutenberg is pushing up daisys).
LOL LOL LOL
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The goalposts get changed, and what does Alan mean by "influenced", does anyone know?
That is precisely why I wanted to differentiate between influence and effect.
As for RD's point about Gutenburg, that's valid. But has Gutenburg been more influential than the person (or persons) who invented writing? Without writing, there would never have been printing presses.
I would also contend that the internet could eventually have been invented without printing presses, but not without writing. Without the formal symbolisation of knowledge (e.g. writing), knowledge could only be passed by word of mouth. Printing helped bring knowledge to the masses, but writing made sure that knowledge was passed down accurately and to more people.
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RD and Doc Beaver good points but does the person, who had been
so influential in your lives have to be well-known?
I don't think so
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Rosalind - The original question was phrased: "...the most influential person in history", not the person who has influenced an individual the most.
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Rosalind - The original question was phrased: "...the most influential person in history", not the person who has influenced an individual the most.
Ok, Doc now I understand and had forgotten. thanks for reminding me. But it's an answer that will only become more difficult to
find the right reply to as time goes on. IMO
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The goalposts get changed, and what does Alan mean by "influenced", does anyone know?
That is precisely why I wanted to differentiate between influence and effect.
As for RD's point about Gutenburg, that's valid. But has Gutenburg been more influential than the person (or persons) who invented writing? Without writing, there would never have been printing presses.
But even the post by RD can be discounted as it does not meet what the question is asking (or what it seems to be asking). Is Guttenberg an influence on people or his invention? They are, afterall, different questions.
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I was thinking about this last night and thought that we should all be grateful to Sir Tim Berners-Lee for inventing the world wide web.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee
Otherwise we'd not have come across forums, new friends and loads of education, learning, films, music etc.
Also Alan Turing, who had invented PCs though there were so big then that it
took a WHOLE room to keep them in. I've seen them. Colossus it's called and still working WoWeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing
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I don't think the sort of computers Turing was involved with could be called PCs. Nothing particularly "personal" about them.
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That's right - the computer at the college I was at in the 1960s filled an entire room and on a good day it would solve a quadratic equation.
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I was IT Manager for a large Electricity Supply Commission,in he 1970s our IBM computer took up half the floor of a large multistory building. The master files were located on huge reels which could and would break in the middle of long runs that sometimes took 24 hours to possess.
Huge airconditioners were needed to keep the monster cool.
So the nighmare never ended , all we could do was recover from security tapes and start the whole nightmare 24 hour run again.