[Harry]

It's all about calcium carbonate that exists in three forms, aragonite, calcite and vaterite. If you can form aragonite crystals then you have taken some calcium carbonate out of solution and placed it into suspension.  This effectively reduces the saturation ratio of the components necessary to form calcium carbonate that are left in solution. Calcium carbonate is inverse soluble meaning if you heat the water it'll try and dump calcium carbonate in the form of calcite. The lower the saturation ratio the less likely calcite will be dumped.  The same applies to the other event that causes scale deposits, a pH increase. This occurs when pressure drops occur such as at shower heads and faucets. The drop in pressure causes carbon dioxide to be released from the water, carbon is acidic so when it's released from the water the pH of the water increases quite dramatically. In such situations scale can be deposited depending on the condition of the water. We've all seen scale build up on shower heads, that's why.  A way to control and prevent scale is to use a water softener that removes calcium and other elements from the water by ion exchange or use a proven scale prevention unit, an example of which can be found below, this site has decades of case studies and a science paper from the Harwell atomic research laboratory to sink your teeth into: http://www.fluiddynamicsna.com

[Nacho2012]

For an explanation on the effect of magnets you could have a read at the paper I had to post in a blog because the kind of people who says that magnets do not work dogmatically also refused to accept it: newbielink:http://chemistry-f-talens-alesson.blogspot.com/ [nonactive].

Essentially, ions in water have a bulk phase concentration and a surface excess. Surface excesses are often much higher, and they are the ones involved in reactions, including precipitation. Precipitation or other reactions will occur if the build up of those surface excesses reaches a critical value. That's what my paper is about, and also about how maths can deceive us into thinking that we know the mechanism of something when we only have a black box correlation.

The magnets simply beat back the build up of the surface excesses and prevent the precipitation. But it can work the other way round: some companies sell devices for descaling of water prior to its use that usg magnets. What they are doing is forcing the build up to form faster in a tank with the help of the magnets. The decalcified water is then used.

The bottom line is that magnets COULD be used to step up other reactions or to prevent them, for as long as the species involved or at least some of them are ionic.

[wolfekeeper]

Uh huh to all the above.

Where are the double blind trials that support these people trying to sell stuff?

There aren't any. If people want to sell me something, they're going to have to go through the publication process in a reputable journal; the plural of 'anecdote' isn't data.

[Bored chemist]

For an explanation on the effect of magnets you could have a read at the paper I had to post in a blog because the kind of people who says that magnets do not work dogmatically also refused to accept it: http://chemistry-f-talens-alesson.blogspot.com/.

Essentially, ions in water have a bulk phase concentration and a surface excess. Surface excesses are often much higher, and they are the ones involved in reactions, including precipitation. Precipitation or other reactions will occur if the build up of those surface excesses reaches a critical value. That's what my paper is about, and also about how maths can deceive us into thinking that we know the mechanism of something when we only have a black box correlation.

The magnets simply beat back the build up of the surface excesses and prevent the precipitation. But it can work the other way round: some companies sell devices for descaling of water prior to its use that usg magnets. What they are doing is forcing the build up to form faster in a tank with the help of the magnets. The decalcified water is then used.

The bottom line is that magnets COULD be used to step up other reactions or to prevent them, for as long as the species involved or at least some of them are ionic.

You seem not to have read or understood your own blog.
It doesn't mention magnets.

So, I could copy your post but change each instance of "magnets" to the acronym "SYFIYE" and it would be every bit as meaningful.

(SYFIYE =sticking your finger in your ear).

[CZARCAR]

water is ionic & freeze expansion is proof? Proper magnetization may work?

[Bored chemist]

About 1 part in ten million of water is ionic at normal temperatures and that falls a bit when it gets old. Ice is essentially non-ionic.

[Nacho2012]

I see you are a very polite gentleman. If surface excesses of cations and anions circulate on a moving liquid in adjacent layers they can be regarded as two streams of opposite sign electric charges. If they do so under the influence of a magnetic field, they can be forced to either separate further, preventing them to reach out to each other (thus preventing precipitation) or they can be forced to run into each other, thus promoting precipitation away from the surface of the pipe in colloidal particles and not crystallising on the surface and adhering to it(the observation by some people on the forum that they noticed turbidity but not scale). Magnetic descaling of exiting deposits may be the consequence of depleting the liquid adjacent to the deposit from calcium and carbonate ions, and displacing the equilibirum. It would seem quite a trivial consequence of the solubility model I explain there.

[Bored chemist]

water is ionic & freeze expansion is proof? Proper magnetization may work?

Water is not ionic. The expansion on freezing has been discussed at length.
magnetism doesn't work on water nor on the ions involved in making lime scale.

[techmind]

Interesting anecdote - read into it what you will.

Earlier this year I looked around some newbuild houses on an estate near me. A seen a few newbuilds over time, and these were some of the best build-quality I've seen.
When I checked out the plumbing under the sink, I discovered that they'd fitted a (permanent magnet) device around the plastic water pipe where it entered the property. This 'feature' was not advertised, nor pointed out by he sales rep. I just noticed it.
I would have thought that builders/developers would not spend money on anything that didn't benefit them in some way... do they know (or believe???) that this reduces call-outs on the boiler/heating system while the house is under the 10-year warrantee?

[Bored chemist]

water is ionic & freeze expansion is proof? Proper magnetization may work?

No  it isn't, no it isn't and no it doesn't respectively.

[CliffordK]

You would think that if these type of devices actually worked, they would give you a reasonable guarantee such as:

If the device fails to eliminate the calcium precipitation/scale problem, the company will:

• Purchase & Install a competing Water Softener of the customer's choice at no additional charge, and
• Replace any pipes that develop excessive restrictions due to calcium and mineral buildup, and
• Replace any hot water heaters that have lost efficiency due to calcium buildup, and
• Replace or repair any coffee pots/makers or teapots that have excessive calcium buildup with an equivalent device of equal or better quality, and
• If an antique should become damaged by calcium buildup, it shall be professionally restored by the company, furthermore
• In the event the company ceases business operations, the guarantee is underwritten by XYZ insurance company.

And, of course, having this as an open-ended guarantee, say in excess of a century, while the device is in use.

[Bored chemist]

Is there something odd about this thread?
I can't see my replies.

[CliffordK]

Is there something odd about this thread?
I can't see my replies.

Odd,
I was sure I posted a reply yesterday.
And, it seemed to take a long time to post, but I thought it had gone up.
And... now it has vanished.
 []

Anyway, my thoughts were that a company producing the calcium deposit magnets should be able to warranty the purchaser's pipes and appliances against damage due to calcium deposits, including replacing all the pipes in people's houses if there becomes a problem of excess mineral deposit in the pipes.

[Bored chemist]

I certainly posted a reply to CARCZAR's post but it seems to have vanished
Water isn't ionic.
The expansion on freezing isn't related to that fact and the ions responsible for hard water scale are not magnetic.

[CZARCAR]

I certainly posted a reply to CARCZAR's post but it seems to have vanished
Water isn't ionic.
The expansion on freezing isn't related to that fact and the ions responsible for hard water scale are not magnetic.

water aint ionic & dont expand due to ionic nature? then why does it expand upon freezing?

[Bored chemist]

Hydrogen bonding.

[CZARCAR]

thanx. i meant polar though glad to learn of H bonding.

[greenman]

I am really not sure if magnets work to remove lime scale from water pipes, but I do know that passing orange juice through a magnetic device I have for drinking liquids will allow me to drink orange juice and not have any heartburn from the acid in the juice even if it is cheap or inexpensive orange juice (it also works with wine and is supposed to work well with alcoholic beverages in general). I work for a company that manufactures an Electronic capacitor based water treatment system that absolutely does remove the scale from the pipes which is very obvious as you must open and clean any screen or filters to remove the old scale that has come off the water pipe walls. This was originally developed for the mining industry, and we have for chillers, cooling towers, evaporative coolers and heat exchangers as well as units for residential. It replaces traditional water softeners, does not add anything to the water nor does it remove anything from the water,  keeps minerals etc., in solution and does not allow to precipitate (stick to pipe walls). It still leaves the calcium on surfaces once water has evaporated, but you can simply wipe off instead of having to scrub or use chemicals to remove the scale.

[Sprool]

I was also big skeptic on this but the explanation that the magnetic field reduces the propensity to precipitate out, maybe somehow altering the way the crystals start to stack together, sounds quite plausible to me. This is lime scale I'm talking about, not Fe oxide

[wolfekeeper]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_water_treatment

While it's not inconceivable that magnets could do something, basically, virtually all tests have failed to show any effect, and the ones that have, have not been independently verified.