Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: thedoc on 25/07/2016 11:23:02
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David Spence asked the Naked Scientists:
This may seem to be a rather odd question, but here goes.....
Does a single atom (say hydrogen (either as part of matter or in space)) have a life span?
What do you think?
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The nucleus of a hydrogen atom is a proton ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay
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Does a single atom (say hydrogen (either as part of matter or in space)) have a life span?
Yes. For a single atom it has the following meaning: There is a specific probability that the nucleus will decay within a specific amount of time. That tells you something about its life span. But in reality either it will decay during that time period or it won't. Life span usually refers to a large number of atoms in a sample and one speaks of the half life. The half life is the amount of time it takes for the number of atoms in the sample to reduce to one half its value.
I have some time this morning so I'll explain some details for you. Note: The presuperscript is the atomic mass number, A, which is the sum of the number of protons and the number of neutrons. Some people will say that all atoms have a life span and that those atoms that don't decay have an infinite life span. I myself choose not to use that terminology so I won't use it in this post.
It's not enough to ask whether a particular kind of atom of an element has a life span or not. One has to specify which isotope of the element you have in mind. Different isotopes of an element differ by the number of neutrons in the nuclei. And sometimes the half-life is so long that it compares to the age of the Earth! But even in those cases they're still considered radioactive and are dangerous to be around if the concentration is too high.
Consider naturally occurring uranium. It's composed of the following three major isotopes; 238U (99.2739–99.2752% natural abundance), 235U (0.7198–0.7202%), 234U (0.0050–0.0059%).[6] All three isotopes are radioactive, creating radioisotopes, with the most abundant and stable being uranium-238 with a half-life of 4.4683×109 years. As I said above, the half life of 238U is close to the age of the Earth!
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Yes, it has a lifespan. In having a lifespan, as well as recent work in Sweden showing vibrations (sound) in artificial atoms (2014), we should probably reconsider thoughts on a perpetual nature. Make our ideas on perpetuality more like nature, with a natural lifespan. This would mean a perpetual technology would not be indestructible, but would give off excess until destroyed.
2n and 2n+1 should be our most useful assets.
where 2n counts steps, 2n+1 counts the number places we step at.
both can represent (-1,0,1) or (0,1,2) or (1,2,3)
2n=3 where n=1.5
2n+1=3 where n=1
2n=7 where n=3.5
2n+1=7 where n=3
2n=13 where n=6.5
2n+1=13 where n=6
2n=2 where n=1
2n=1 where n=0.5
2n+1=2 where n=0.5
2n+1=1 where n=0
2n+1=0 where n=-1
2n=-2 where n=-1
This exchange creates a mirror and reversal system of pure beauty, when you realize its relations to atoms, through 2^n.
The electron shell diagram is 4 layers. layer 1 is 2, layer 2 is 8, layer 3 is 18, layer 4 is 32
what if that is the origin of water compression because of a 6 part atomic structure? neutrons would have 3 parts, to protons having 2, to electrons being 1.
layer 1=2
layer 2=(2 or 4) 4*2=8
layer 3=16+2=18 (think of the +2 as opposite flow to interact with layer 2 and 4 differently)
layer 4=(32 or 16)
also, fission and fusion could be what old alchemists were trying to achieve.
cold fusion would be perpetual motion machines.
it seems to be all indicative of atoms releasing small amounts of energy.
in atomic weight we don't see flat whole weights, which states that mass as inertia battery would possible be seen as said overcast. Helium offers stability with 4.002
4.002=2*(0.334+0.667+1)
deuterium>0.334+0.667+1
hydrogen>0.334+0.667
I think we have seen enough science to actually state atoms are nature's perpetual constructs, while not being indestructible.
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Depends on the hydrogen atom hydrogen 1 is considered a stable isotope called Protium. and has never been observed decaying.But some predicted a half life for it they don't really know.Hydrogen 2 is also considered stable called Deuterium.Stable isotopes happen in element with lower atomic weight than lead
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Even stability has its limits. Think of a top. While it spins it can seem stable, and even seem that way for a long time, but once a little wobble starts, it grows until it falls. Thats if isolated. Once we realize another close atom, we start to see vibration data exchange. This further elongates lifespans as we have incoming energy.
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I don't believe anything is infinite in reality so I think yes all atoms decay.Infinities only exist on paper you can divide forever on paper but try it in reality and the object will have finite matter and you will end up with a proton in the end.
A better question would be does a proton decay a neutron has a halflife of about 15 mins so they do.I have read a billion years for a proton but how could you ever measure it.
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Its based on known qualities compared to neutrons i think.
Infinite, I do think does happen. Past our known universe into the multiverse.
use 9's.
(a,a,a,a,b,c,c,c,c)
if we are b, our 3d existence, and a is our universe in 4 tiers, than the multiverse is in 4 tiers as well.
well, when we have our lowest as output, creating a time system in b, then c can compress allowing time to fold into infinity energy expansion.
as you might notice, this is expanded from a+b=c+b where b=1, or golden mathematics.
it's also a variable of 2n+1=9 where n=4.
if our atom is 2^n where n=1-5 (#4 exists on compression) in a four space system,
than our greater than universe would be:
2^6=64 as multiverse
2^7=128 as mega-verse
2^8=256 as giga-verse
2^9=512 as tetra-verse
meaning 64 universes per multiverse.
meaning 64*128=8,192 universes per mega-verse
meaning 8,192*256=2,097,152 universes per giga-verse
meaning 2,097,152*512=1,073,741,824 universes per tetra-verse.
we allow growth to feed the higher levels, where nature's truest perpetuality resides.
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Lifetime of an atom...I have read a billion years for a proton but how could you ever measure it.
In the Standard model of nuclear Physics, the proton is stable. Conservation of Baryon number means that the proton cannot decay into a lighter baryon, as the proton is the lightest baryon.
In some other theories (which propose other particles which have not yet been observed), the proton could decay (by emitting a positron, for example), but with expected lifetimes of the order of 1034 years.
There are experiments underway to estimate the lifetime of a proton.
- Take a deep mine shaft (to shield the experiment from cosmic rays)
- Shield the experiment from radioactive rocks
- Use chemically pure ingredients so that nothing suffers normal radioactive decay
- Use isotopically pure ingredients so that nothing suffers normal radioactive decay
- Install huge amounts of proton-rich material (water is a good candidate)
- Detect any bursts of radiation, or presence of unexpected atoms, either of which may mean that a proton has decayed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay#Experimental_evidence
Does a single atom (say hydrogen (either as part of matter or in space)) have a life span?
There is another sense in which an atom can have a shorter lifetime, and that is if you consider a hydrogen atom to be a specific proton + a specific electron. In water, the hydrogen atoms are continually losing electrons and floating around as a H+ ion, only to team up with a different electron soon after. So that "Hydrogen Atom" could now be considered to be a "different" Hydrogen atom.
- There are no known ways to label a particular electron or proton
- But the standard chemistry lab pH meter shows that something like 1 in 10 million hydrogen atoms have currently lost an electron (or have just regained a different electron) at any given instant.
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I'm actually using the standard model as well. Just allowing for electron (cloud located) interaction swells on the space between proton and neutrons in the nucleus. Its not a physical particle, but a behavior in what seems to be a 9 point time structure (8 steps).
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/jiim8hx4mb (copy and paste) for a 2d example using graphs. it allows data tracking as well.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/zjiyoixopm is for magnetism. (pole operations)
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/yfuslieaxf 2 energy, 1 mass (proton) 1 mass (neutron) and two zero point operators (keeps off true zero by using a special interaction of 2n+1=3 where n=1.)
I'm still working out final arrangements.
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evan_au, surely in your deep mine you would be subject to neutrino interactions?
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surely in your deep mine you would be subject to neutrino interactions?
Yes, take the Super Kamiokande detector in Japan as an example...
It has been used to detect neutrinos from the Sun, cosmic rays, (one) supernova and nuclear reactors.
- The recoil of an atom which has absorbed an energetic neutrino produces Cherenkov radiation, which is detected by a "fly's eye" matrix of photomultiplier tubes
- It is able to pick up the direction and energy of the incoming neutrino - at least the Sun and nuclear reactors are localised in space (Cosmic rays are more diffuse).
- Presumably, if a proton decayed, you would get two sprays of Cherenkov radiation, from the recoil of particles heading in opposite directions.
- They have a good idea of the energy distribution of neutrinos from the Sun, nuclear reactors and cosmic rays. They would be looking for something distinctive.
- Presumably, software would be able to separate out all these sources?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-Kamiokande