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Quote from: timey on 23/03/2017 12:58:19If one measures the frequency of the caesium atom at any gravity potential using the tick rate of a clock at that gravity potential, then the frequency of the atom is always 9,192,631,770Hz, and that 'is' ground state.No. It isn't the "frequency of the atom". There are umpteen frequencies associated with an atom. It's the frequency of the photon that is associated with the transition between the two hyperfine ground states of the electrons in the cesium atom.Apropos fields, imagine a small source subject to two gravitational field vectors at right angles, say midway between Earth and Mars and offset from the line joining them. The blue shift we observe depends only on which planet we are standing on, not the net field vector at the source. That is to say that it depends on gravitational potential difference, not field. This is the sort of pedantry that get Galileo into trouble, and without which we would still be stuck in the dark ages of superstition."The observer" is a convenient fiction who turns up all over physics, but without that irritating little man on Google Earth, we wouldn't know which way we are looking, and therefore would have no idea what we are looking at.
If one measures the frequency of the caesium atom at any gravity potential using the tick rate of a clock at that gravity potential, then the frequency of the atom is always 9,192,631,770Hz, and that 'is' ground state.
So - does this mean that the ground state frequency of the caesium atom really is higher in the higher gravity potential?
Because it looks to me as if the caesium atom's electron transitions will increase in frequency at each higher potential, and that what someone observes is dependent on what rate of time they use to measure the observation with...
Quote from: GoC on 21/09/1974 15:40:15[/size]This is a subjective opinion about seeing different spectrum of lines at elevation proving the electron transition do not move to higher energy levels causing higher frequencies.What I was specifically talking about was the ground state vs electrons moving to higher energy levels in the atom. Quote from: timey on 21/03/2017 03:09:28What do the electron transitions of an atom have to do with the emission of a photon?They are the 'cause' of the emissionQuote from: timey on 21/03/2017 03:09:28Are electron transitions related to quantum energy levels?Yes. The transitions are the 'moves' between energy levels. The ground state is the lowest level and results in the lowest energy photons. If the electron transitions take place from higher energy levels the photons have higher energy. Note this is a quick and dirty explanation.If the transitions were being made from higher energy levels in an elevated atom that ought to be noticed by an observer at that elevation.However, one thing I didn't mention last night (long post, very late) is that if you decide in your theory to assume that the energy levels of the ground state are 'lifted' then you could consider that the ground state is emitting higher energy photons.
[/size]This is a subjective opinion about seeing different spectrum of lines at elevation proving the electron transition do not move to higher energy levels causing higher frequencies.
What do the electron transitions of an atom have to do with the emission of a photon?
Are electron transitions related to quantum energy levels?
I have made it quite clear that the frequency that I am referring to is 9,192,631,770Hz.This is the ground state frequency of a caesium atom.
In any case, the bit that I am trying to talk about is:That if one observes the frequency to be higher than 9,192,631,770Hz, 'from' the lower gravity potential, and then measures this higher frequency held relative to the tick rate at the higher potential, then the frequency is 9,192,631,770Hz.
Everything you observe depends on your gravitational potential difference relative to the source of your observation.
the clock appears to be running faster than an identical clock at the lower potential.
By definition, radiation produced by the transition between the two hyperfine ground states of caesium (in the absence of external influences such as the Earth's magnetic field) has a frequency of exactly 9,192,631,770 Hz.
Obviously the clock always ticks at the same rate because (a) it is the same clock (b) it has no knowledge of its gravitational potential and (c) whilst it would appear faster to an observer at a lower potential, it would appear slower to an observer at a higher potential: it obviously can't be both faster and slower, so it must be invariant and appear different according to the potential difference between source and observer.
Time is what separates sequential events. If time is compressed or expanded, sequential events occur closer or further apart. Clock ticks and biological processes are sequential events.
Take an elastic band and make 10 marks on it, 1 cm apart. Now stretch the band. There are still 10 marks between your fingers.
If two biological events are separated by 10 clock ticks on earth, they will be separated by 10 clock ticks at any other gravitational potential, as measured by the local clock. But an observer on earth might count 9 or 11 ticks of his own clock between observations of the events.
No contradiction, as long as you accept that time can be dilated or compressed by gravitational potential. If the observation were due to a gravitational effect on the clock rather than time, we would expect to see different results for different types of clock, but we don't.
Here's where the "electron path " model breaks down. A simple clock consists of a quartz tuning fork. Quartz is anisotropic, which is why we can use its piezoelectric properties to excite and measure its vibrations. Now if I accelerate the device along the length of the arms of the fork, they will stretch, so the clock will run slower. But if I accelerate it perpendicular to the length of the arms, they will get thicker, but the anisotropy of the crystal structure will give me a different change in timekeeping.You can also consider a circular escapement mechanism: accelerated along a radius it will become elliptical and its moment of inertia will increase; accelerated along the axis, it remains circular, so its timing will be different. But GR and experiment tells me that all clocks behave the same at a given gravitational potential so it must be time, not the means by which we measure it, that is warped by gravity,
but the anisotropy of the crystal structure will give me a different change in timekeeping.
There's no "electron cycle" involved in an atomic clock. We are looking for microwave absorption at an energy determined by the spin-spin interactions between electrons and nuclei.
Take an elastic band and make 10 marks on it, 1 cm apart. Now stretch the band. There are still 10 marks between your fingers.If two biological events are separated by 10 clock ticks on earth, they will be separated by 10 clock ticks at any other gravitational potential, as measured by the local clock. But an observer on earth might count 9 or 11 ticks of his own clock between observations of the events.No contradiction, as long as you accept that time can be dilated or compressed by gravitational potential. If the observation were due to a gravitational effect on the clock rather than time, we would expect to see different results for different types of clock, but we don't.