Naked Science Forum

Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: wadegardner on 05/03/2015 01:27:15

Title: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: wadegardner on 05/03/2015 01:27:15
I remember Einstein had remarked that nothing in the universe can travel faster than light for it is a universe constant.  I have a question regarding his famous formula E=MC^2.  Does his theory not state (within itself) that Energy is equal to Mass times the speed of light squared?  The speed of light is being squared here and it is also being multiplied by mass.  This to me sounds like travelling faster than the speed of light is entirely possible.  Someone please correct me if I am mistaken in my assertion.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: PmbPhy on 05/03/2015 02:14:43
I remember Einstein had remarked that nothing in the universe can travel faster than light for it is a universe constant.  I have a question regarding his famous formula E=MC^2.  Does his theory not state (within itself) that Energy is equal to Mass times the speed of light squared?  The speed of light is being squared here and it is also being multiplied by mass.  This to me sounds like travelling faster than the speed of light is entirely possible.  Someone please correct me if I am mistaken in my assertion.
You're wrong. The faster a body goes the greater E is. E goes to infinity as v goes to c. That means that as the speed of the body gets closer  to the speed of light the energy becomes infinite. This is because if E is the total energy of the body then M is what's called the relativistic mass of the body which is related to its rest mass m0 by

M = m0/sqrt(1 - v2/c2)
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: wadegardner on 05/03/2015 02:30:39
Thank you for taking the time out to answer my question.   [:)]  I do believe that travelling faster than the speed of light is possible mainly because, I can envision it as being a reality one day.  Perhaps not in todays equations as you have pointed out.   
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: PmbPhy on 05/03/2015 02:49:36
Thank you for taking the time out to answer my question.   [:)]  I do believe that travelling faster than the speed of light is possible mainly because, I can envision it as being a reality one day.  Perhaps not in todays equations as you have pointed out.   
So you think its actually the equations which are preventing us from traveling at or faster than the speed of light? The equations only describe nature. Not the other way around. If we are to beat the light barrier we will have to manipulate spacetime using the science of general relativity. Not by looking for new equations but by looking for new physics which are described by new equations.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: wadegardner on 05/03/2015 02:59:54
Point well taken.  It isn't today's equations that hold us back.  Today's equations are a reference point to what exists.  I am sure they will be added onto one day (as you have mentioned) by warping space/time.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: jccc on 05/03/2015 03:01:55
Thank you for taking the time out to answer my question.   [:)]  I do believe that travelling faster than the speed of light is possible mainly because, I can envision it as being a reality one day.  Perhaps not in todays equations as you have pointed out.   

a 100 miles per hour train can not push a man to 101 miles per hour.

the force we use to push us is em force, its speed limit is c. therefore faster than light traveling is impossible.

e=mc^2 might be just another joke.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: wadegardner on 05/03/2015 03:02:40
PmbPhy, do you have any ideas on how we can warp space time?  This is a forum for free thought right?  Perhaps pooling thoughts on this may spark ideas on how this can be accomplished sooner than later.  Never know!! :)  I would like to join in on that.   
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: wadegardner on 05/03/2015 03:10:20
jccc, I appreciate your response.  Einstein's equation E=MC (squared) is the best thing going right now.  Most of the technology that we have is based on it.  One thing I noticed about mathematics is that is usually gets added onto rather than squashed.  The forum is always open to new ideas though. :)     
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: Ethos_ on 05/03/2015 03:25:21


e=mc^2 might be just another joke.
I think we are witnessing an all together different joke here "jccc". So tell us, what about e=mc^2 causes you so much glee?
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: jccc on 05/03/2015 04:42:13
if photon is not real, his N prize is bs also.

agree?
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: Ethos_ on 05/03/2015 13:12:06
if photon is not real, his N prize is bs also.

agree?
I'm reading this post jccc, and you read that last post of mine, right?

Without the photon, neither one of us would have much success doing so, right? The photon, electromagnetic radiation is very real, it's what we call light. It's real enough to give us eyesight and also warm the planet upon which we live, I'd say very real indeed.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: Bill S on 05/03/2015 15:01:59
Isn't there a strong possibility that FTL travel would involve time reversal?  If that's the case, I think it would be a major sticking point to add to the technical difficulties, such as providing infinite energy, or even defining infinite energy.  Does anyone really know what that is?
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: PmbPhy on 05/03/2015 15:05:08
Quote from: wadegardner
PmbPhy, do you have any ideas on how we can warp space time?
Matter curved spacetime.

Quote from: wadegardner
This is a forum for free thought right?
Yes. So long as this is what you think that means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: PmbPhy on 05/03/2015 15:06:51
Quote from: Bill S
Isn't there a strong possibility that FTL travel would involve time reversal?
If you find way to travel faster than the speed of light then its possible to use it to go back in time.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: jeffreyH on 05/03/2015 18:08:15
Say you did manage to travel faster than light and taken to extremes you could travel 1 ly in a second. You wouldn't be going back in time at all. When you start out the photons reaching you from a solar system 1 ly away have already travelled for 1 year. You can't catch them before they leave that solar system as that would violate all sorts of conservation laws. Those photons are history as far as you are concerned. You would simply see things speeded up enormously. When you actually got to the position you thought the other solar system was when you left it would probably moved somewhere else. As you approach it you will see it moving away from its initial position anyway very rapidly. On the Planck scale I think such thoughts of time travel as well as light speed violation are ruled out. I can't prove that however. It is just an opinion.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: DonQuichotte on 05/03/2015 18:53:38
"Spooky action at a distance " or entanglement does happen instantaneously , even from huge distances (faster than the speed of light thus ) without any transfer of information , that is .
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: Ethos_ on 05/03/2015 21:28:11
"Spooky action at a distance " or entanglement does happen instantaneously , even from huge distances (faster than the speed of light thus ) without any transfer of information , that is .
For goodness sake, look who's back in town.

Welcome back Don,.......or plato, which ever.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: PmbPhy on 05/03/2015 21:32:41
Quote from: DonQuichotte
"Spooky action at a distance " or entanglement does happen instantaneously , even from huge distances (faster than the speed of light thus ) without any transfer of information , that is .
Welcome back, Don. What's your point here? Entanglement can't be used to send anything faster than the speed of light. In fact nothing is moving faster than light with entanglement. It has to be kept in mind that the instantaneous nature of the entanglement does not mean that it can be used to violate any concern with special relativity. The only think that is instantaneous is the effect of measurement.

Let's consider the instantaneous nature of entanglement and what it means. When two particles become entangled it usually happens when there is a collision between two particles and it happens so that something like spin angular momentum will be conserved. That means that when the spin of one of the particles is measured to be "spin up" then when you measure the spin of the other particle the result will be "spin down." There's nothing being communicated to the other particle so I don't see what can be considered instantaneous about it. The particle is merely part of one quantum state and that's a property of the state itself and not the particles.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: jccc on 06/03/2015 04:40:59
every time traveler will do some time in the big house.

if you vote me for pres.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: Merccooper on 06/03/2015 13:12:57
In talking about FTL and traveling to the past, doesn't the delayed choice results in the double slit experiment in some manner suggest that we can alter past events and therefore travel (or communicate) FTL into the past?
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: jccc on 06/03/2015 14:24:06
Isn't there a strong possibility that FTL travel would involve time reversal?  If that's the case, I think it would be a major sticking point to add to the technical difficulties, such as providing infinite energy, or even defining infinite energy.  Does anyone really know what that is?

i do. bs. debunk me, not delete my opinion. have a little merit about science.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: wadegardner on 07/03/2015 02:56:00
I have read recently read an article that the sub-atomic particle neutrino has been clocked at traveling 186415.0858983536 Miles per second (300,006 k.p.s.) which is faster than the speed of light which travels at roughly 186,282 miles per second.  This is faster than the speed of light but, not by much.  If this is true and does get proved, I am quite sure new mathematical equations will evolve to incorporate the new data.  This could possibly lead to being a step closer to understanding more of what dark matter is and how it equates to everything else.  From what I know of dark mater (or the lack thereof) couldn't this be similar relationship between Isaac Newton's theory of gravity and Einstein's theory of curved space time?  From what I understand about the two is there is a lag in gravity the farther away an object is from our sun the less pull it will have of course to hold the planet in space.  What keeps the planets in orbit is the curved space time in which a 'groove' is created by this propagation and is held into space by gravity.  I read the articles and pieced them together that made sense to me.  Are there computations to tie these two together?   If there is, I would like to know what they are.  I haven't got that far into math or physics aspect of it as of yet, but I am pretty good at formulating a spatial orientation and understanding the concepts.  Any help would be gratefully appreciated!!
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: PmbPhy on 07/03/2015 03:41:07
Quote from: wadegardner
I have read recently read an article ...
Please post the name and source of the article. There have been past reports of this but they turned out to be wrong. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Time_of_flight_of_neutrinos

Quote from: wadegardner
... that the sub-atomic particle neutrino has been clocked at traveling 186415.0858983536 Miles per second (300,006 k.p.s.) which is faster than the speed of light which travels at roughly 186,282 miles per second.  This is faster than the speed of light but, not by much.
If this is true then those particular kinds of neutrinos (there are different kinds of neutrinos by the way) are tachyons. This subject has already been discussed in the American Journal of Physics. See Faster-than-light speeds, tachyons, and the possibility of tachyonic neutrinos by Robert Ehrlich, Am. J. Phys. 71, 1109 (2003). It's described online at :
http://scitation.aip.org/content/aapt/journal/ajp/71/11/10.1119/1.1590657

The abstract reads
Quote
Faster-than-light speeds and hypothetical FTL particles known as tachyons are exciting subjects for students, given their speculative and controversial nature. This article presents an overview of these subjects and their role in special relativity and examines the possibility that one or more of the three neutrinos is a tachyon. The paper also describes several low tech demonstrations useful for teaching about faster-than-light speeds and tachyons in intermediate and advanced introductory college-level physics courses.




If this is true and does get proved, I am quite sure new mathematical equations will evolve to incorporate the new data.  This could possibly lead to being a step closer to understanding more of what dark matter is and how it equates to everything else.  From what I know of dark mater (or the lack thereof) couldn't this be similar relationship between Isaac Newton's theory of gravity and Einstein's theory of curved space time?  From what I understand about the two is there is a lag in gravity the farther away an object is from our sun the less pull it will have of course to hold the planet in space.  What keeps the planets in orbit is the curved space time in which a 'groove' is created by this propagation and is held into space by gravity.  I read the articles and pieced them together that made sense to me.  Are there computations to tie these two together?   If there is, I would like to know what they are.  I haven't got that far into math or physics aspect of it as of yet, but I am pretty good at formulating a spatial orientation and understanding the concepts.  Any help would be gratefully appreciated!!
[/quote]
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: JohnDuffield on 07/03/2015 14:27:39
I have a question regarding his famous formula E=MC^2.  Does his theory not state (within itself) that Energy is equal to Mass times the speed of light squared?  The speed of light is being squared here and it is also being multiplied by mass.  This to me sounds like travelling faster than the speed of light is entirely possible. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken in my assertion.
I'm afraid you're mistaken. Einstein's E=mc² (https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/E_mc2/www/) doesn't say travelling faster than light is possible. It says "the mass of a body is a measure of its energy-content". It's experimental evidence that says it isn't possible to travel faster than light. Things like pair production and electron diffraction and refraction. An electron is quite literally made from light, it has a definite wave nature, and in atomic orbitals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbital#Electron_properties) electrons "exist as standing waves". Something made out of waves can't move faster than the speed of waves. Time travel is science fiction by the way. So are tachyons.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: PmbPhy on 07/03/2015 15:23:42
I have a question regarding his famous formula E=MC^2.  Does his theory not state (within itself) that Energy is equal to Mass times the speed of light squared?  The speed of light is being squared here and it is also being multiplied by mass.  This to me sounds like travelling faster than the speed of light is entirely possible. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken in my assertion.
I'm afraid you're mistaken. Einstein's E=mc² (https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/E_mc2/www/) doesn't say travelling faster than light is possible. It says "the mass of a body is a measure of its energy-content". It's experimental evidence that says it isn't possible to travel faster than light. Things like pair production and electron diffraction and refraction. An electron is quite literally made from light, it has a definite wave nature, and in atomic orbitals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbital#Electron_properties) electrons "exist as standing waves". Something made out of waves can't move faster than the speed of waves. Time travel is science fiction by the way. So are tachyons.

wadegardner - He's wrong about this because he's making unstated assumptions about the meaning of the terms in that equation. He does that a great deal of the time. In this case he failed to read the first reply which I'll elaborate more on in this post. Let

proper mass (aka "rest mass") = m0

proper energy = E0 = m0c2

Total energy = E0/sqrt(1 - v2/c2)

It can be shown that E = K + E0 where K = kinetic energy. So the larger the speed the larger the total energy. As v -> c, E -> infinity which means that v cannot equal c.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: ScientificSorcerer on 08/03/2015 03:28:03
What If "M" could be made to be zero or less then zero then you could faster then light with no problems.

negative matter is something of a myth but at one point antimatter was too so don't think it's impossible.

Reduction of a single particle's mass simply means a reduction of that particles interaction with space time (decrease of that particle's gravitational field).  An electron and a proton might be the same size but have different mass because of their interaction with the fabric space time is different, if you could change your particles interaction with space time then you could become heavy or lite without gaining or loosing particles

That's were you end up in the taboo subject of anti-gravity or gravity modification, if you could reduce a particle's gravitational field then you could reduce "M" in the E=MC2 meaning that you would need less energy to get closer to light speed.

If M was zero then you would go light speed. If M was a negative number then you would be able to go faster then light
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: PmbPhy on 08/03/2015 05:56:34
Quote from: ScientificSorcerer
What If "M" could be made to be zero or less then zero then you could faster then light with no problems.
That means that you'd have to change what you are because its humans that he wants to travel that fast. And besides, there's nothing in nature that we've observed that behaves that way. Where would you find such matter and how would you control it when you do?
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: jeffreyH on 08/03/2015 21:04:42
Just create a boost in angular momentum. That is spin things very fast. This alters the rate of change and the effect of gravitation.
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: jeroen on 08/03/2015 22:07:38
May I point out it is not called the realitiviy theorie for notting It means you do not have to travel a distanse so of course you can go faster then light but faster is relative [;D] I Mean try messering inside timespacematter not outside so light is not the subject I think you could proberly project your matter everywhere in timespacematter but you need to know where you want to aprear instantly so speed has no limed. We have limitations but we can overcome them where trough the light is traveling is the subject. It only states the universe is constant matter is just a small part of that. You have to create a new formula to beypass this one. What reality is tomorow is not the reality today the universe is growing creating if you want you may help it or mabee you are already. You are made outof matter and darkmatter so is your brain so dont limit yourself by compairing yourself with light or the good and the bad. Thats relative also depense on how you ask! [;)]  TO give a more direct answer to your question without knowing or reading the formula light or matter can not travel faster the light by it self but with the use of blackmatter It can so I Think the formula is wright!
Title: Re: Does Einstein's equation E=MC^2 negate the idea of no travel faster than light?
Post by: wadegardner on 25/10/2015 20:31:16
FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF LIGHT
Scientists can now “squeeze” light, a breakthrough that could make computers millions of times faster 

Perhaps light (C) being squared isn't so far off as I proposed!  Google for the full story.