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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
More than one century is established unquestionable scientific truth that the only cause of scurvy is a diet that is lacking in an adequate amount of vitamin C.
On the other side some available evidence shows that absence of fresh vegetable and fruits and as well C vitamin, doesn’t play any role in outbreak of scurvy.
Three century long scurvy was common sailor’s disease. In same time there is no any reliable evidence that show any outbreak of scurvy on the land.
For example; Eskimos and most population on north hemisphere lived just fine eating virtually no fruits and vegetables during long their winters.
The Mongols didn’t eat fruit and vegetable at all. Taking in account that they conquered nearly whole known world at those time we can make conclusion that the Mongols where in very good health without fruits and vegetables in their diet.
Scurvy disappeared on the end of nineteen and beginning of twenty of century, in same time when big, stabile on the water, steam powered ships replaced smaller wind powered ships.
Did scurvy disappeared because of adequate amount of vitamin C in sailors diet or because of introducing steam powered ships that was much bigger in size and because of bigger size they are more stabile on the water.
What do yo think? Is it any ground to question the established wisdom about cause of scurvy and the healings properties of vitamin C?
Luka Tunjic
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This statement "In same time there is no any reliable evidence that show any outbreak of scurvy on the land." isn't true.
It's perfectly possible to produce scurvy on dry land here and now. Like humands (indeed, primates in general) guinea pigs cannot produce vitamin C. If their diet doesn't contain enough vitamin C they get scurvy. It would be pointlessly cruel to repeat this just to prove a point but the experiment was done countless times while they were working out how to extract ascorbic acid from food in order to identify it.
Anyway, it seems that people keeping pets are sometimes careless (or ignorant) of this fact.
http://www.guinealynx.com/scurvy.html
Unless you are saying that the guinea pigs all go sailing at night then there's a big hole in your theory.
There's another problem too. Some of the trials of fresh fruit (and other things) were done at sea and they succeeded. How would that work? did feeding sick sailors lemons make the boat more stable for them than for their less fortunate shipmates?
If that's not convincing enough then how about the fact that the biological role of ascorbic acid as a co factor in the conversion of (IIRC) proline to hydroxyproline as a precursor of collagen is now well researched.
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Bored chemist, thanks for your comment.
I know that questioning the cause of scurvy is equal blasphemy.
On the other side I find plenty evidence that shows that something is wrong with this theory that is accepted as scientific fact.
It is plenty to discus about rewriting of history and fraud in science done to strength a belief about cause of scurvy and cause for disappearance of scurvy.
But for beginning let see some fact about unquestionable scientific truth that say “humans body is unable to synthesise vitamin C.
Many times we have been heard that humans are not able to synthesize vitamin C. It is established us unquestionable scientific truth that humans are not able to synthesize vitamin C.
Here is link that shows that humans are able to synthesize vitamin C.
Scurvy in pregnant and lactating women and infants
Pregnant women with low vitamin C intakes are not known to give birth to a scorbutic infants.
Studies of breast-feeding women also indicate not only the freedom from scurvy in their infants, but also a larger amount of vitamin C in their milk than the women themselves consume daily.
Secretion into milk seems to have high priority in maternal vitamin C economy; concentrations up to 48 times higher than in maternal plasma have been found in breast milk (Salmenpera, 1984).
Infants had plasma concentrations 6–12 times higher than corresponding maternal concentrations.
There is an obvious adaptive preventive effect against vitamin C deficiency even among infants whose mothers’ nutrition is marginal (Salmenpera, 1984).
No symptoms of scurvy have been known to appear in infants breast-fed by malnourished mothers with very low concentrations of vitamin C in their milk (Deodhar et al., 1964).
One study showed that the mean infant/maternal plasma concentration ratio was 2 during delivery
and appeared to be similar or higher during lactation (Salmenpera, 1984).
Surprisingly, infants’ plasma concentration continued to rise despite the decreasing concentration of vitamin C in milk.
This maintenance of high plasma concentration in infancy suggests that a high concentration is necessary during infant growth.
The fetal brain is reported to contain a concentration of vitamin C several times higher than the adult brain (Adlard et al., 1974).
A study undertaken by Rajalakshmi et al. (1965) showed that pregnant women in India who were ingesting less than 10 mg of vitamin C per day were in fact secreting 15–30 mg of the vitamin in their milk while showing no clinical
signs of scurvy.
These findings suggest that the human breast and placenta might be able to synthesize some vitamin C (Hodges, 1980).
© World Health Organization, 1999
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1999/WHO_NHD_99.11.pdf
Does anyone still think that humans body is not able to synthesize vitamin C.
P. S.
Understanding real cause and underlining mechanism of the scurvy will enable to understand real cause and underlining mechanism of many nowadays illnesses and disease and will enable us to understand real cause and underlining mechanism of AIDS.
Luka Tunjic
http://www.freewebs.com/lukatunjic/
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"On the other side I find plenty evidence that shows that something is wrong with this theory that is accepted as scientific fact."
Well, you have shown some evidence that a small fraction of humans (specifically, pregnant women) are able to make vitamin C. This doesn't particularly suprise me. Plenty of metabolic pathways get switched on and off at various times during life. The best known examples are puberty (where various hormone productions get switched on) and the loss of the abillity to digest lactose after infancy in some people. In any event, this document (also by WHO)
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1999/WHO_NHD_99.11.pdf
indicates that pregnant women lose vitamin C reserves so the case is far from proven.
Since most people are not pregnant there is little to be said for this fact in terms of scurvy in the population in general. It indicates that some alternative to vitamin C administration for the treatment of scurvy might be possible. If you couldd swicth on this pathway in the rest of the population (assuming it exists) then you could cure scurvy. An interesting idea but useless. Lemons will be cheaper.
It clearly has nothing to do with AIDS which has been shown to be caused by HIV (It seems a small number of people happen to be immune for some reason; this has no more importance than the fact that, while I never seem to get flu, it does exist and it's caused by a well documented virus).
As I have said, the relation betwen vitamin C and scurvy is very soundly established; you need to disprove that link before you can say that we have any grounds to doubt it. After that, then please feel free to put forward theories about HIV/ AIDS (but keep in mind that they will probably be attacked even more vigourously than this one about scurvy.)
In the meantime please answer the points about the guinea pigs and the shipboard experiments about scurvy.
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Bored chemist, thanks for your comment. I know that are plenty evidence available that lead us to conclusion that deficiency of vitamin C is cause of the scurvy. On the other side if we take this evidence a little a bit under scrutiny than this evidence appear as counterevidence.
I will try to explain my opinion about “shipboard experiments about scurvy”. and examples of scurvy by guinea pig will leave for later.
If we take a little bit under scrutiny world’s first ever clinical trial, we can find some strange things.
The crucial experiment Lind performed in 1747 at sea on the Salisbury, was to take twelve seamen suffering from the same degree of scurvy and divide them into six groups of two each. In addition to their regular diet, he gave each group a different, commonly used treatment for scurvy and observed its action. One group received a quart of cider daily, the second group received twenty-five drops of dilute sulfuric acid three times a day, the third group was given two spoonfuls of vinegar three times a day, the fourth team drank half a pint of seawater three times a day, the fifth received a concoction of garlic, mustard seed, horseradish, gum myrrh, and balsam of Peru. The last group received two oranges and one lemon daily for six days. These last two men improved with such astonishing rapidity that they were used as nurses to care for the others. There was slight improvement in the cider group but no benefit was observed in the others.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/stone/chap1-11.htm
“One group received a quart (two pints) of cider daily”
It shows that in reality the two sick men are forced to consume excessive amount of cider.
“the second group received twenty-five drops of dilute sulfuric acid three times a day”
How much was diluted we don’t know but is serious consideration that this trial, two people already sick was slowly poisoned for six days
“the third group was given two spoonfuls of vinegar three times a day”
If you force strong healthy people to consume two spoonfuls of vinegar three times of day, it will make everyone sick.
"the fourth team drank half a pint of seawater three times a day”
Two people already sick was forced to drink one and half pint of see water for sex days. Where is the logic to force somebody to drink sea water? Drinking one and half pint of see water will everyone sick.
“the fifth received a concoction of garlic, mustard seed, horseradish, gum myrrh, and balsam of Peru”
This mixture was given to two already sick people knowing that this “concoction” has laxative property.
The last group received two oranges and one lemon daily for six days.
Two oranges and one lemons for six days versus six days long of slow poisioning.
And his experiment is now regarded as the world’s first ever clinical trial….???
Salisbury was still in that area on 20 May when Lind’s experiment began, eight weeks after leaving port. He picked twelve men for a six-way comparison of cider, elixir of vitriol, vinegar, sea water, oranges and lemons, and a purgative mixture. A tenth of the crew by now had scurvy, so he had 30 or 40 individuals to choose from. Yet the roll call shows at most one or two as sick during this entire voyage on which six men “departed this life”.
http://www.jameslindlibrary.org/trial_records/17th_18th_Century/lind_biog/salisbury_commentary.html
On the voyage that Lind conducted first medical trial the six people died from scurvy.
It has striking similarity with “operation was successful – but patient died”
To understand clinical trials, it may be helpful to review the very first one in medical history. The year was 1746, the investigator, Dr. James Lind, a British navy surgeon. In those days, scurvy was a common and serious problem for sailors on long sea voyages. Dr. Lind believed he could cure the disease with citrus fruits. To test his theory, he divided his sailors into six groups; one got a normal ship’s diet while the others received supplements of cider, sea water, vinegar, elixir of vitriol, or lemons and oranges.
After several months at sea, Dr. Lind’s theory proved correct. The sailors who ate citrus fruit recovered; all the others remained ill with the abnormal bleeding and diseased gums, hair, and skin characteristic of scurvy. http://hmiworld.org/hmi/issues/May_June_2002/around_prostate.html
How it can be proved after several months when he runs out of citrus in just six days.
And question is when he believed that citrus can prevent and cure scurvy why he didn’t took more citrus on ship , why only 12 oranges and 6 lemons?
Luka Tunjic
http://www.freewebs.com/lukatunjic/
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Hi Luka,
I don't see the point of analysing in detail Lind's experience as a pioneer of proper clinical trials.
Surely it had been great for those old days and it is frequently cited as an example, mostly because in the following centuries medicine had all sort of troubles and misfortunes before finding a proper scientific 'path'.
You may die from scurvy even today, I am afraid.
It is still a serious matter and a major issue in malnutrition, and malnutrition itself is reported to cause approximately 50% of the total mortality in children all over the world.
"Now we know that 50 percent of all deaths of young children in the world are due to malnutrition," Habicht says. "It's also because of illness, but if they were nourished, they would have survived. Looking at it that way makes a big difference in how you allocate resources."
click here for the complete article: http://www.nutrition.cornell.edu/news/s00/habicht0500.html
To start from the beginning may help sometimes, but -in my opinion- I don't think this is the case. In contrast, to join in the discussion, I'll post one of the most recent reports of clinical scurvy.
In this brand new century for a change.
Infantile scurvy: an old diagnosis revisited with a modern dietary twist.
Burk CJ, Molodow R.Pediatric Dermatology, University of Miami, Miami, Florida 33125, USA. cynthiajburk@yahoo.com
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is necessary for the formation of collagen, reducing free radicals, and aiding in iron absorption. Scurvy, a disease of dietary ascorbic acid deficiency, is uncommon today. Indeed, implementation of dietary recommendations largely eradicated infantile scurvy in the US in the early 1900s. We present a case of an otherwise healthy 2-year-old Caucasian girl who presented with refusal to walk secondary to pain in her lower extremities, generalized irritability, sleep disturbance, and malaise. The girl's parents described feeding the patient an organic diet recommended by the Church of Scientology that included a boiled mixture of organic whole milk, barley, and corn syrup devoid of fruits and vegetables. Physical examination revealed pale, bloated skin with edematous, violaceous gums and loosening of a few of her teeth. Dermatologic findings included xerosis, multiple scattered ecchymoses of the extremities, and perifollicular hemorrhage. Laboratory and radiographic evaluation confirmed the diagnosis of scurvy.
The patient showed dramatic improvement after only 3 days of treatment with oral ascorbic acid and significant dietary modification.
In this case report, we revisit the old diagnosis of scurvy with a modern dietary twist secondary to religious practices. This case highlights the importance of taking a detailed dietary history when evaluating diseases involving the skin.
Am J Clin Dermatol. 2007;8(2):103-6.
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...and another case, 7yr boy, just cereal, without any fruit or veggies...
plus bleeding gums picture if you click down here:
http://student.bmj.com/issues/01/08/reviews/minjun23.jpg
A 7-year-old boy was admitted with a sore mouth, bleeding gums, and painful knees. Further examination showed gum hyperplasia, flaky skin, perifollicular bleeding, and telangiectasia around the nose and ears. His diet consisted of mostly cereal, with no fruit or vegetables. His vitamin C concentration was less than 1.0 ϭol/l (normal is >32 ϭol/l). Subsequent investigations showed other nutritional deficiencies, including vitamin A and trace elements (copper, zinc, and selenium). His oral lesions completely resolved with dietary changes and vitamin C supplementation. Poor dietary intake of vitamin C is a rare cause of childhood scurvy in developed countries, and as nutritional deficiency diseases rarely occur in isolation, other deficiencies should be sought.
A J Thompson, senior registrar, H J Steen, consultant, A J M Reid, locum consultant, department of child health, Queen's University of Belfast, Institute of Clinical Science, Belfast BT12 6BJ
studentBMJ 2001;09:261-304 August ISSN 0966-6494
http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetailsKids.aspx?p=335&np=307&id=1491#9
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I don't think 2 pints of cider a day is excessive, it's pushing it for the current guidelines on drinking but it's not a huge consumption. I certainly know people who drink that much, indeed over the weekend I will average a lot more than 2 pints a day.
The other "treatments", while bizzare, were accepted ways of treating scurvy at the time. Modern clinical trials compare the effect of a new treatment against the effect of an established treatment. This is no different to what happened back on the ship. For what it's worth most of those treatments were based on a rather simplistic idea that scurvy was due to a failed acid/ base balance. Given that hypothesis the treatmenst made sense.
If I thought it would help to point out failings of medical testing then the next thing I'd ask is why were the nursing mothers and pregnant women in the reports you first quoted not given vitamin C. I wouldn't like to have to get that past an ethics committee today. It's probaly cheaper to give vitamin C tablets than to measure the levels in blood accurately.
The fact is that in the case of the sailors getting lemons their symptoms improved dramatically. In the cases that didn't the symptoms continued to worsen. They all fell ill with scurvy before they got any of these "treatments" so you can't blame that for the cause of the disease.
Laxatives were commonly used to treat all sorts of illnesses- the idea was to purge toxins from the body. It's a fine theory but it's now known to be wrong. They didn't know that at the time; arguably it would have been poor science not to try all the treatments in use.
How else can you explain
1 At sea many men slowly succumbed to scurvy- some faster than others.
2 A group of men with scurvy were split up and given different treatments
3 Those getting citrus fruit recovered but the others didn't.
without saying that the citrus fruit (which are relatively expensive and don't keep very well so you wouldn't have many of them on a ship) treated the disease.
If the disease reapeared when the fruit ran out that's just more evidence for the benefit of the fruit.
You can't say "it was the vitriol (or whatever) that caused the scurvy" because they got the illness before they were given the vitriol (or...).
Subsequent experiments have shown that other plants (like spruce needles) used to treat the problem have high levels of vitamin C
Again I feel I have to ask, what do you think causes scurvy if it isn't a lack of vitamin C? The idea that the decline in scurvy is due to big stable ships makes no sense; plenty of people got scurvy on land (prisoners were particularly prone to it).
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I saw a program on this a long time ago as their wasnt much else to do at 3 o clock in the morning. During it i finally got to find out why us british got the name limeys.
It was a derogatory term given to us by the Americans who didnt like us much at the time. They called us lime-juicers now shortened to limeys and was due to all the fruit and fruit juice britsh sailors used to consume to combat the scurvy.
Maybe if they were nice to us and didnt call us names we would have told them our secret as to why we were drinking all the fruit juice in the first place and many american sailors wouldnt have died of scurvy :)
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...There are only two vital cofactors, vitamins if you prefer, biochemical catalysts that our body cannot synthesize and even stock in large amounts: vitamin B1 or thiamine and vitamin C or ascorbic acid.
Our little storage capability as far as these two substances are concerned explains why food in our diet must constantly have enough thiamine and ascorbic acid.
Deficiency dieseases from lack of one of these cofactors, beriberi and scurvy respectively, start earlier than in any other vitamin shortage, after a few weeks on a deficient diet.
So we should not be surprised reading that those poor sailors of the past had to suffer from both types of vitamin deficiency!
from: Thiamine deficiency and its prevention an control in major emergencies
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It was frequently reported among sailors arriving in all the large ports in the United States at the turn of the century.
The term 'ship beriberi' was often used since in the West most of the thiamine deficiency cases were seen on ships.
Studies document the appearance of the disease on a total of 158 different ships involving 947 persons of whom 147 died. Macpherson (1966) reported that at the turn of the century when scurvy had disappeared in the Norwegian merchant navy due to the provision of lime juice, white bread was introduced in place of the dark rye bread, and 'ship beriberi' became common,especially on long voyages.
He also reports on an elderly captain who didn't get the disease since he preferred his rye bread to the white bread, who could cure his sailors who contracted the disease by providing them with rye bread.
...
exhaustive free full-text: http://www.helid.desastres.net/?e=d-000who--000--1-0--010---4-----0--0-10l--11en-5000---50-about-0---01131-001-110utfZz-8-0-0&a=d&cl=CL1.9&d=Js2900e.2
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jeffsmeats.com%2Fv-limes.jpg&hash=b8ff85a1b92239959c9ea5c97c9a284e) (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.desertflour.com%2Fimages%2Fbreads%2Frye.jpg&hash=fd4b0a23fa99a8e07c9c7f02f868c2ec)
http://www.jeffsmeats.com/v-limes.jpg
http://www.desertflour.com/images/breads/rye.jpg
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Iko,
thanks for interesting post. I find particularly interesting that thiamine deficiency was reported mostly on the ship, however I didn’t find this on link that you posted but I looked just briefly and I hope I will find later. I find it worthy to discus.
But for now I like to point that people in 1497 already know that citrus can cure the scurvy but not always.
One of the earliest outbreaks of scurvy at sea was sustained by the crew of Vasco da Gama during his 1497 expedition to India. Da Gama began his expedition from Lisbon on July 9, 1497, with a fleet of 4 ships and a crew of 140 men. It took them 6 months to round the Cape of Good Hope. By the time da Gama's crew landed on the southeast coast of Africa, most of them were afflicted with scurvy. Da Gama recorded: "Many of our men fell ill here, their feet and hands swelling, and their gums growing over their teeth so that they could not eat." As they sailed farther up the east coast of Africa, they met local traders, who traded them fresh oranges. Within 6 days of eating the oranges, da Gama's crew recovered fully and he noted, "It pleased God in his mercy that ... all our sick recovered their health for the air of the place is very good."
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/4/e76
This case shows that eating orange for 6 days long was enough to achieve full recovery from scurvy for everyone that was affected by scurvy. On this example it is clear that orange (vitamin C) are effective to cure scurvy.
But by second outbreak of scurvy it seems that something strange happened.
From India, da Gama returned across the Arabian Sea. Within 12 weeks of sailing, his crew was again afflicted and weakened by scurvy. Da Gama commented: "We addressed vows and petitions to the Saints ... it pleased God in his mercy to send us a wind which in the course of six days, carried us within sight of land ... at this we rejoiced as ... we hoped to recover our health there as we had done before ... the Captain-Major sent a man on shore to bring off a supply of oranges which were much desired by our sick." Da Gama lost more than half of his crew by the end of his journey. His crew sustained scurvy when they had been at sea for 10 weeks or more. They recognized oranges to be an effective antiscorbutic by the second outbreak. The experience of da Gama in dealing with scurvy did not become common knowledge, and over the next several centuries, scurvy remained as the scourge of the sea explorers. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/4/e76
It seems that by second outbreak of scurvy the oranges wasn’t so effective to cure scurvy and Wasco Da Gama lost more than half of his crew.
Question is; why by the first outbreak of the scurvy oranges was effective to counteract to the scurvy and why by the second outbreak wasn’t?
However, I couldn’t find for sure why he lost half of his crew but from some other example I have made assumption that by of second outbreak of scurvy citrus didn’t help too much to cure scurvy.
But if anybody has more information why Wasco De Gama lost more than half of his crew it will be useful for this discusion.
Luka Tunjic
http://biomechanicsandhealth.blogspot.com/
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I interpret this
"His crew sustained scurvy when they had been at sea for 10 weeks or more. They recognized oranges to be an effective antiscorbutic by the second outbreak. " as meaning that they knew oranges worked because they worked twice- once might have been a coincidence.
Of course another interpretation was that, while they knew oranges worked, they simply didn't have any. Oranges don't keep very well.
Also, they may have had stored oranges that were just about edible, but the vitamin c content of fruit falls with storage so they might not have helped much.
From the limited record of what happened all those years ago it's hard to be certain what they did and what happened.
More modern, fully documented cases have shown the effect of pure vitamin C in controlled studies.
When all is said and done, vitamin C cures scurvy and a lack of it causes scurvy.
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Scurvy is becoming more and more difficult to diagnose....
In the last issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, July 26, an intriguing case is presented:
autistic 9yr old child with a 2months history of bone pain and a limp, plus a skin rash and bleeding gums. It took a few days plus MRI, x-rays, blood tests and a bone biopsy(!) before suspecting vitamin C deficiency and giving a dose of 160mg daily and a pediatric multivitamin for a prompt improving of his ailment.
The patient's mother was reinterviewed about diet history: since the onset of his bony pain, several months earlier, he had consumed only toaster pastries and cola drinks...
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Iko,
If you post the link it will be easy to discus. Anyway I will use example that you posted for excuse to say something about DIAGNOSIS of the scurvy.
To diagnose scurvy it need to exist underlining condition. (It is like manual how to diagnose the scurvy and many other health conditions)
Underlining condition to diagnose scurvy is low level of vitamin C in the body.
(In case that is not detected lack of vitamin C in the body than same health condition will not be diagnosed as scurvy but as some another health condition.)
In this case they established low level of vitamin C.
To run manual step by step it need to establish the absence or insufficient intake of vitamin C in recent time.
They interview mother of the boy and they get confession.
If you look that this poor women have already 9 year old autistic son and she is probably lower socioeconomic class that means she have already pleanty trouble (it is my gues). In such case it easy to get confesion from her that pleased these medical professionals. (Medical professional can’t do such interview with reach people but just with people that are vulnerable).
Interview done by medical professionals is in reality inquisition. If this woman didn’t make suggested confession that will please medical professionals she could face many unpleasant consequences and possibility that her son will be taken from her and put in custody.
Medicals journals are polluted with self conducted self assessed and self reported research and no one questioning validity of those studies as long as they are in stream with established belief. Majority of study that are published in medicals journals are in scientific term worthless but the only us is to enrich the curriculum vitae of their author.
At this point is pointless to discus every study that conform pre-existing belief that absence or insufficient intake of vitamin C cause scurvy.
It will be more productive is to discuss credibility of the sources and event that have lead to belief that lack of vitamin C is responsible for scurvy is and after that we can take under scrutiny this waste number of study about vitamin C and scurvy.
P. S.
My point is that low level of vitamin C and (some another adverse biochemical change in the body) is caused by scurvy and not that scurvy is caused by absence of intake of vitamin C.
The vitamin C has remedial property and that vitamin C alone doesn’t have curative property.
Luka Tunjic
http://www.biomechanicandhealth.com
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OK, the medical profession can get a bit carried away with itself just like anyone else can.
The woman may have been susceptible to sugesstions from the doctors (thought I understand that poor nutrition isn't rare in autistic children).
In the same way that I don't blame the headache I get on Saturday morning on a lack of aspirin, even though an aspirin makes the headache go away, the fact that vitamin C makes scurvy go away does not absolutely prove that scurvy is caused by a lack of vitamin C.
The fact that feeding a limited (vit C deficient) diet to guinea pigs causes scurvy whereas exactly the same diet with added vit C doesn't cause scurvy does prove that it's the lack of vitamin C that causes scurvy.
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Luka is making me mad...
We are craving for new hints
and hypotheses about mysterious
'idiopathic' diseases, and here he is,
all busy in spending his precious new brain
just to capsize the few poor evidences we have!
We fortunately know - about scurvy and vitamin C -
almost everything needed to diagnose and treat quickly
and effectively deficiencies, safely enough to forget about it!
ikoD [;D]
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More than sixty years was belief that vitamin C have protective and curative role against cold. Till recently it was unquestionable scientific fact (backed with waste number of published scientific paper) that taking daily certain dose of vitamin C will prevent cold.
After more than sixty years it was accepted fact (from real life) that to prevent or cure common cold vitamin C is useless.
Still many people don’t like to confront with reality and still many believe that vitamin C ward and cure cold despite that is no evidence in real life for such a belief.
It is more striking fact that from beginning and followed with more than sixty years wasn’t any evidence in real life to beck up this theory about protective and curative role of the vitamin C in case of common cold but people still believed.
In case of scurvy is established belief that absence or insufficient intake of vitamin C is responsible for incidence of scurvy despite fact that Eskimos and most population on north hemisphere lived just fine eating virtually no fruits and vegetables during long their winters. The Mongols didn’t eat fruits and vegetable at all.
It is known that at least four century people tried everything (ranging from orange and lemons to prayers) to ward and cure scurvy by the sailors and sometimes it worked and sometimes didn’t.
Scurvy disappeared on the end of nineteen and beginning of twenty of century and a few decades later after last outbreak of the scurvy on the sea it is established theory that vitamin C cure and protect from the scurvy.
The common cold happened every day and still it takes more than sixty years to give up belief that vitamin C prevent and cure cold.
In case of scurvy it is easy to defend this theory because there is no more any outbreak of scurvy on the sea and is established strong belief that vitamin C protect and cure scurvy.
This belief is product of the fraud in science (done intentionally or unintentionally).
In a few my next post I will tray to explain more.
Thanks for reading
Luka Tunjic
http://www.biomechanicsandhealth.com
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Sometimes re-reading helps,
I personally try to spend
more time reading and thinking
than writing...it's better.
...and another case, 7yr boy, just cereal, without any fruit or veggies...
plus bleeding gums picture if you click down here:
http://student.bmj.com/issues/01/08/reviews/304.php
A 7-year-old boy was admitted with a sore mouth, bleeding gums, and painful knees. Further examination showed gum hyperplasia, flaky skin, perifollicular bleeding, and telangiectasia around the nose and ears. His diet consisted of mostly cereal, with no fruit or vegetables. His vitamin C concentration was less than 1.0 ϭol/l (normal is >32 ϭol/l). Subsequent investigations showed other nutritional deficiencies, including vitamin A and trace elements (copper, zinc, and selenium). His oral lesions completely resolved with dietary changes and vitamin C supplementation. Poor dietary intake of vitamin C is a rare cause of childhood scurvy in developed countries, and as nutritional deficiency diseases rarely occur in isolation, other deficiencies should be sought.
A J Thompson, senior registrar, H J Steen, consultant, A J M Reid, locum consultant, department of child health, Queen's University of Belfast, Institute of Clinical Science, Belfast BT12 6BJ
studentBMJ 2001;09:261-304 August ISSN 0966-6494
http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetailsKids.aspx?p=335&np=307&id=1491#9
This is scurvy today.
It exists now: no sailors, no ships, no miracle cancer cure or flu remedy.
Just ascorbic acid deficiency, potentially fatal when untreated.
No jokes.
ikod
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"More than sixty years was belief that vitamin C have protective and curative role against cold. Till recently it was unquestionable scientific fact (backed with waste number of published scientific paper) that taking daily certain dose of vitamin C will prevent cold. "
Just for the record I have never believed that vitamin C could cure the common cold (or cancer come to that). It was never established scientific truth simply because it was never true. Linus Pauling believed it; he though vitamin C would prevent cancer so he took lots of it. So did his wife and so did one of his lab coleagues; both died of cancer.
The wild idea that vitamin c cures the common cold is of no relevance to scurvy.
As Iko has popinted out scurvy still occurs from timt to time. It is still cured by vitamin C.
The mechanism of action is known.
"It is known that at least four century people tried everything (ranging from orange and lemons to prayers) to ward and cure scurvy by the sailors and sometimes it worked and sometimes didn’t."
When did oranges fail to cure scurvy?
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As Iko has pinpointed out scurvy still occurs from time to time. It is still cured by vitamin C.
The mechanism of action is known.
You are certainly right Bored chemist,
never forget the oldwives' lectures...
This is the most recent report, so fresh
and with plenty of ascorbic wisdom!
Scurvy: a presenting sign of psychosis.
Arron ST, Liao W, Maurer T.
Department of Dermatology, University of California, San Francisco, CA 94110, USA.
Nutritional deficiency may be a presenting sign of undiagnosed psychiatric illness. In this case, we present a patient with scurvy as a complication of fixed psychotic delusions regarding his diet. Dermatologists may play a crucial role in the recognition of psychiatric illnesses and appropriate referral for care.
J Am Acad Dermatol. 2007 Aug;57(2 Suppl):S8-10.
Infantile scurvy (Barlow's disease)
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faqs.org%2Fnutrition%2Fimages%2Fnwaz_02_img0214.jpg&hash=640d0358e608260449ead01df55260d0)
http://www.faqs.org/nutrition/images/nwaz_02_img0214.jpg
This X-ray of an infant afflicted by scurvy shows some of the skeletal effects of the disease, including bowed legs, stunted bone growth, and swollen joints. Infants who are fed only cow's milk are at risk of developing scurvy, since cow's milk is not an adequate source of vitamin C. [Photograph by Lester V. Bergman. Corbis Images. Reproduced by permission.]
Scurvy is a condition characterized by hemorrhages around the hair follicles of the arms and legs, generalized weakness, anemia, and gum disease (gingivitis) resulting from a lack of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in the diet. Early epidemics of scurvy occurred during the Renaissance (1600–1800s) among explorers and seafaring men. In 1746, James Lind, a British naval surgeon, established that eating lemons and oranges cured the disease.
Vitamin C is destroyed by heat, and thus not present in pasteurized and commercially processed foods. Children and teenagers who consume too many processed foods and few fresh fruits and vegetables may be getting inadequate amounts of vitamin C. (In 1914, an increased incidence of scurvy among infants was attributed to consumption of heated (pasteurized) milk and vitamin C–deficient commercially processed foods.) Though rare, scurvy is now frequently observed among elderly persons, alcoholics, and malnourished adults. In addition, smokers have higher requirements for vitamin C, and are therefore more at risk.
Kiran B. Misra
from: http://www.faqs.org/nutrition/Pre-Sma/Scurvy.html
Only cow's milk for over 4-6 months?
Scurvy will reappear in the new MILLENNIUM!!!
Ascorbic acid is NOT a vitamin for cows: over thousand years of evolution they kept -like most mammals- the enzyme needed to synthesize it.
As a matter of fact its concentration in their milk is not necessary.
On the other hand, humans -like other primates- lost the gene and enzyme to make ascorbic acid; consequently, human breast milk is very rich of vitamin C, actively concentrated for newborns' sake.
Scurvy in a 10-month-old boy.
Larralde M, Santos Muñoz A, Boggio P, Di Gruccio V, Weis I, Schygiel A.
Pediatric Dermatology Division and Pediatric Department, Ramos Mejía Hospital, Buenos Aires, Argentina. margaritalarraide@fibertel.com.ar
We report a 10-month-old boy with inflammatory and necrotic gingival lesions, fever, irritability, and pseudoparalysis of the legs. Laboratory examinations revealed moderate anemia and skeletal X-rays showed osteopenia, scorbutic rosary at the costochondral junctions, and "corner sign" on the proximal metaphyses of the femora.
The boy had been fed only with diluted cow's milk. He had never taken solid food, vitamin C, or iron complement.
Seventy-two hours after starting oral vitamin C supplementation, there was significant improvement in the patient's gingival lesions and general health. The clinical presentation and laboratory and imaging findings, together with the dramatic response to ascorbic acid intake, allowed us to confirm the diagnosis of infantile scurvy. Scurvy, a dietary disease due to the deficient intake of vitamin C, is uncommon in the pediatric population. In an infant who has never received vitamin C, the combination of gingival lesions, pseudoparalysis, and irritability strongly suggests a diagnosis of scurvy. The clinical picture, together with the laboratory data, radiological studies, and therapeutic response to vitamin C administration, confirmed the diagnosis.
Int J Dermatol. 2007 Feb;46(2):194-8.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
Aldous Huxley
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.orwell.ru%2Fpeople%2Fhuxley%2Fimg%2Fhuxley2.jpg&hash=d3deae7a7869f3babc4088e383cf0852) (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsfbook.com%2Fpics%2Fbcl_huxley_brave_new_world.jpg&hash=74b6d8904befc99f69c19448eb6eed92)
http://www.orwell.ru/people/huxley/img/huxley2.jpg
http://sfbook.com/pics/bcl_huxley_brave_new_world.jpg
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I would like to add something that might have been overlooked in the lime and lemon study.
1. Gum disease, mouth ulceration and abscess are all quickly cured by swishing lime or lemon juice around the mouth. The anti-microbial qualities of these two fruits surpasses anything on the market today. My family have used this method to great effect over many years and found it to work perfectly, in fact, I believe I added a post some time ago.
2. Now, if the route of blood poisoning, sickness and diarrhoea is from oral infection, then the lemons and limes would undoubtedly cleanse the infections, kill of tummy bugs and assist recovery. Which leaves us with the question of what exactly scurvy is?
3. Lemon used as a contraceptive by prostitutes during and after intercourse has been shown to prevent aids! Fact! So not only is it antibiotic, anti fungal and anti viral, it is a highly efficient ant-spermicidal, immobilising sperm and killing in around 20 seconds.
4. Which I believe adds a little validity to Luka’s intriguing look at scurvy
Andrew
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Personally I use high proof vodka on cotton wool to kill mouth ulcers- it stings a bit but it works. Of course, I get enough vitamin C so this has nothing to do with scurvy, just the misfortune that a scratch inside my mouth gets infected.
If lemons cured all those problems then healthcare would look a little different. On the other hand if you got anything like enough lemon juice into someones bloodstream to make it inhospitable to bacteria then you would probably kill the patient. The stomach is very acid anyway so it's hardly in need of a shot of lemon juice to kill bugs.
Way back at the start of this post there were references to diluted vitriol not curing scurvy (trust me it's just as good an acid) and to cider not curing scurvy. Thanks to the alcohol, as well as the acidity, cider is a pretty good bactericide too.
Curing scurvy is not just a matter of acidity or killing bugs.
Curing scurvy is a matter of supplying the chemical that the body needs as a co-factor for the oxidation of proline to hydroxyproline.
The fact that lemon juice will kill lots of things isn't a great shock- the stuff is really quite acidic. However since scurvy is nothing to do with infection any anti-infective properties of lemons must be a coincidence.
BTW, pure ascorbic acid works to cure scurvy. The quantities of it needed are small enough not to have any direct anti infective effect.
I don't think any effect lemons have on microorganisms can add any validity to a discussion of a disease that doesn't involve any microorganisms.
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Andrew thanks for your constructive and informative comment. I am glad that you find interesting to question the theory about scurvy and vitamin C.
I am trying to explain that cause of scurvy wasn’t in sailors’ diet but it was due to biomechanical factor. I think that at this stage is too early to put completely theory forward because of strong established belief that absence or insufficient content of vitamin C in sailor’s diet was factor that caused incidence of scurvy.
I hope you will find interesting and any possible future comments from you, whether support or contradict to my theory is valuable for me.
Bored chemist wrote:
When did oranges fail to cure scurvy?
If oranges (and lemons) never failed to prevent and cure scurvy than is question why Lind made this trial. It will be enough to give oranges and lemons to every sailor that is affected with scurvy. But I think that on this stage for majority that sound as meaningless fact.
On the other side there are a few other facts that more seriously contradict to established wisdom about vitamin C and scurvy.
Let’s take look in events that happened in Vasco da Gama voyage in year 1497
One of the earliest outbreaks of scurvy at sea was sustained by the crew of Vasco da Gama during his 1497 expedition to India. Da Gama began his expedition from Lisbon on July 9, 1497, with a fleet of 4 ships and a crew of 140 men. It took them 6 months to round the Cape of Good Hope. By the time da Gama's crew landed on the southeast coast of Africa, most of them were afflicted with scurvy. Da Gama recorded: "Many of our men fell ill here, their feet and hands swelling, and their gums growing over their teeth so that they could not eat." As they sailed farther up the east coast of Africa, they met local traders, who traded them fresh oranges. Within 6 days of eating the oranges, da Gama's crew recovered fully and he noted, "It pleased God in his mercy that ... all our sick recovered their health for the air of the place is very good."
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/4/e76
It shows that eating orange 6 days (on the land) was enough to achieve full recovery from scurvy for everyone that was affected by scurvy. On this example it is clear that orange (vitamin C) are effective to cure scurvy.
But by second outbreak of scurvy it seems that the oranges wasn’t so effective to cure scurvy and Wasco Da Gama lost more than half of his crew.
From India, da Gama returned across the Arabian Sea. Within 12 weeks of sailing, his crew was again afflicted and weakened by scurvy. Da Gama commented: "We addressed vows and petitions to the Saints ... it pleased God in his mercy to send us a wind which in the course of six days, carried us within sight of land ... at this we rejoiced as ... we hoped to recover our health there as we had done before ... the Captain-Major sent a man on shore to bring off a supply of oranges which were much desired by our sick." Da Gama lost more than half of his crew by the end of his journey.
It is to conclude that by the second outbreak the crew didn’t land but continued to sail after fruits is supplied on the ship. They’ve where eating fruits on the travelling ship hoping that citrus will again cure the scurvy.
I couldn’t find more information how successful was but if we take in account that he lost more than half of his crew by the end of journey it is to conclude that by second outbreak of scurvy the orange and lemons didn’t help to much if at all.
By first outbreak of the scurvy oranges was effective to counteract to the scurvy because the sailors where on the land, Whit another words they where on stabile ground and not on unstable moving platform that on the sea provide unstable wind powered ship.
What was difference in outcome by treating scurvy on the ship and on the land can be understand from this link.
Once on shore it was a superstition among sailors that the smell and the touch of the earth gave the surest cure. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/captaincook_scurvy_02.shtml
People were aware that once victims were on shore they could be recovered by eating scurvy grass, wild celery, wood sorrel, nasturtiums, brooklime, Kerguelen cabbage (Pringlea antiscorbutica), cabbage trees and other esculent plants growing on the shores of distant islands. Fruit and palm wine were also esteemed to be fine remedies,
No one had a remedy for scurvy at sea - however; the best on offer was a battery of prophylactic measures, including portable soup (a preparation of dried vegetables), malt, sauerkraut, concentrated fruit juice (rob), vinegar, mustard, molasses and beans. These were aimed at repelling any sign of scurvy from the outset, since it was impossible to control it, once it had gained a footing, other than by going ashore.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/captaincook_scurvy_02.shtml
This shows that not only citrus was effective to cure scurvy but as well nearly everything that grows on the land was effective to cure scurvy.
During the voyage in 1497Vasco de Gama lost more than half of his crew but there is no mention that he lost any officer and it is to conclude that scurvy affected only poor sailors and the officers wasn’t affected with scurvy.
His crew sustained scurvy when they had been at sea for 10 weeks or more. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/4/e76
In any document about scurvy that I have looked it is always mentioned crew and scurvy and never officers and scurry or crew and officers and scurry
It shows that only the people on the ship who are not officers where affected with scurvy and that officers wasn’t.
It is to conclude that at those times it was mystery that only poor sailors were vulnerable to scurvy and that officers didn’t.
Theory that scurvy is caused because of absence or insufficient amount of vitamin C in sailor’s diet is established long time after scurvy disappeared. Everything that supports this theory is accepted and exaggerated and everything that contradicts or questioned this theory is overlooked and ignored.
In this post I pointed out on two facts;
One fact is that treating scurvy on the land was always successful and that on the ship scurvy was nearly impossible to treat.
Second fact is that only crew was vulnerable to scurvy and that officer’s wasn’t.
I will tray to explain later but before in my next posts I will take a little bit more under scrutiny Lind’s trial and guinea pigs and as well nowadays diagnosis of scurvy?
Luka Tunjic
http://www.biomechanicsandhealth.com/
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"One fact is that treating scurvy on the land was always successful and that on the ship scurvy was nearly impossible to treat."
Lemons don't grow in the ocean. Vitamin C has poor storage qualities under the conditions usually found on ships of that era.
"Second fact is that only crew was vulnerable to scurvy and that officer's wasn't. "
One of the privileges of rank was that you got a better diet. Both groups were at sea so they were the same from that point of view. These 2 groups can be thought of as a first group who were badly fed (the sailors) who got scurvy and a second group who were relatively well fed (the officers) who didn't get scurvy.
I can't see that as evidence for anything other than scurvy being related to a poor diet.
The reports of De Gama's voyage, regretably, don't include enough information to really establish what happened. It's possible that spoilage of the fruit (which never did keep well) would have destroyed its vitamin C.
What is clear is that oranges cured the disease and that returning to the restricted diet of the ship provoked the disease again. So I'm still waiting for an answer to my question "When did oranges fail to cure scurvy?" I should make it clear that I mean lots of fresh oranges.
Unless you can give a clearly documented answer to this I think you are wasting your time (and the site's bandwidth).
"No one had a remedy for scurvy at sea - however; the best on offer was a battery of prophylactic measures, including portable soup (a preparation of dried vegetables), malt, sauerkraut, concentrated fruit juice (rob), vinegar, mustard, molasses and beans."
The fact that so many things are offered seems to me to be because none of them worked or, more likely they all worked to some degree and that degree was variable.
I'm also still waiting for you to answer my earlier question about guinea pigs; do they go sailing?
Since scurvy also happened on land, particularly in places like prisons where the food was poor, any ides that it's particularly related to ships or the sea are simply wrong.
As Iko says, look at the more modern, well documented cases and see what the beautiful truth is.
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Guinea pig and quack-theory
The facts about experiment on which is based theory that guinea pigs can’t synthesise vitamin C.
In 1902, Axel Holst, a Norwegian professor of bacteriology and hygiene who had been concerned at the appearance of what had been diagnosed as beriberi in the crews of Norwegian sailing ships, seized an opportunity to visit Grijns in Batavia and to see his work on chicken polyneuritis. On his return to Oslo, he attempted to obtain a closer model of "ship-beriberi" by using a mammal as his experimental species, and chose guinea pigs. He fed them grains, either whole or milled, and found that they all died within 30 d. When the carcasses were opened he saw "pronounced hemorrhages" and looseness of the molar teeth. Theodor Frölich, a pediatrician with experience of infantile scurvy, confirmed that the condition appeared to be scurvy with no evidence of any kind of polyneuritis. The two men then found that the condition was not produced by semistarvation, and that it was prevented by giving two traditional antiscorbutics, lemon juice and fresh cabbage
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/4/975
Before any discusion is usefull to remind of some facts about guinea pigs.
Grass is the guinea pig's natural diet.
Guinea pigs tend to be fickle eaters when it comes to fresh fruits and vegetables, having learned early in life what is and is not appropriate to consume, and their habits are difficult to change after maturity.[
They do not respond well to sudden changes in diet; they may stop eating and starve rather than accepting new food types
A constant supply of hay or other food is generally recommended, as guinea pigs feed continuously and may develop habits such as chewing on their own hair if food is not present
Guinea pigs are prey animals whose survival instinct is to mask pain and signs of illness, and many times health problems may not be apparent until a condition is severe or in its advanced stages.
Treatment of disease is made more difficult by the extreme sensitivity guinea pigs have to most antibiotics, including penicillin, which kill off the intestinal flora and quickly bring on episodes of diarrhea and death
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pigs
Taking in account that grass is guinea pigs natural diet and that grains, either whole or milled isn’t, shows that feeding the guinea pigs with grains either whole or milled is actually exposing them to starvations to the some extent and in the same time to the some extent of slow poisoning (semi starvation combined with slow poisoning),
They didn’t prevent death of guinea pigs by giving them lemon juice by continuing to feed them with grain, either whole or milled.
They didn’t prevent death or reverse condition induced by feeding guinea pigs with the grain by continuing the feeding with grain and cabbage because the guinea pig will ignore the grains, either whole or milled and will eat only cabbage because cabbage is guinea pigs natural diet and grain, whole or milled is not..
They prevented (condition) guinea pigs from death by giving them, lemon juice and fresh cabbage.
Taking in account that guinea pigs “do not respond well to sudden changes in diet; they may stop eating and starve rather than accepting new food types” it is questions how Axel Holst convinced guinea pig to eat grain at all. It is like convince lions to eat broccoli and lemons.
Lion natural diet is meat and if you fed them with broccoli and lemon the lions surly will develop scurvy if he doesn’t die before.
This experiment on which is founded theory that gunea pigs can’t syntetise vitamin C can be simply described as; with metod of slow poisioning and semi starvation by guinea pig is induced condition that is treated by discontinuing the starvation and slow poisioning and repleaced with natural diet (cabbage) and aded a drop of snake oil (lemon juice).
Healing and remedial property of the lemon juice and citrus in general the humans discovered long time age only in this case the lemons juice is used as snake oil.
Luka Tunjic
http://www.biomechanicsandhealth.com/
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Your quote says
"The two men then found that the condition was not produced by semistarvation, and that it was prevented by giving two traditional antiscorbutics, lemon juice and fresh cabbage"
then you say the curative effect is due to the gabbage being their natural diet. Earlier you had pointed out that grass was their natrual diet. Last time I checked cabbage was not a grass.
Add to this the fact that you say that grain is poisonous whereas, in reallity it is part of the grass that is the guinnea pig's natural diet, and I think you are short of credibility.
I think that a lion living on broccoli and lemons might have any number of nutritional problems but I note that you have offered no evidence whatsoever that these problems would include scurvy- you have simply stated it and expect us to have faith in your opinion.
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I'd like to point out, if I can, that Guinea Pigs (in a laboratory, or a domesticated form) have severe mutations in the enzyme that synthesizes vitamin C, and are not capable of doing so at a genetic level. It doesn't really matter what "remedies" this condition, the fact is that they cannot make vitamin C unless someone provides them the gene to do so.
The 'wild' guinea pigs of South America may be a different story. Until someone completes genetic a study on them, we will never know.
As for prevention of scurvy without fresh fruits and vegetables? Sure, it's possible. It's called raw meat. Plenty of vitamin C in that.
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In this post I pointed out on two facts;
Not true, you pointed out two suppositions.
One fact is that treating scurvy on the land was always successful and that on the ship scurvy was nearly impossible to treat.
Plants have vitamin C. Eating any non-cooked plant will give you some vitamin C - they synthesize it constantly.
Actually the data (without your interpretation) you presented suggests to me that the second bout of scurvy was treated by the citrus, but the sailors already had depressed levels of ascorbic acid in their bodies. If they depleted their tissue stores of vitamin C the citrus infusion could only help so much. What likely occurred is that they raised their ascorbic acid levels above deficiency, but not high enough to delay the reappearance of scurvy for too long. 10 weeks is more than enough time to deplete your vitamin C tissues stores if you don't have very high levels to begin with.
Second fact is that only crew was vulnerable to scurvy and that officer’s wasn’t.
This is not uncommon. Officers likely had better diets before and during the voyage. Did they eat any potatoes? Cabbage? Rare/fresh meat? Much more vitamin C in those than what the crew got - salted meat and breads. Officers still got scurvy, just not as often.
I don't know what you are suggesting as a "biomechanic" factor that might cause scurvy. People who don't move at all still get scurvy. It's biochemistry, not biomechanics.
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Hi VitaminC,
to revive our discussion here
I have a question for you all:
how do scorbutic patients die
if they are not cured on time?
ikoD
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The simple answer is horribly.
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The simple answer is horribly.
Yes B.C.,
horribly enough, I agree with you.
Interestingly, bleeding is not reported as a major problem, in spite of decreased platelet activity, anemia and jammed collagen synthesis.
Untreated patients had been reported succumbing from heart failure and/or infections, mainly pneumonia.
In the last few centuries.
So if you find a starving or malnourished human being: alcoholic, anorectic, starvation striker or so, and heart failure seems to be a major problem, never forget ascorbic acid and thiamine.
Vitamin C and vitamin B1 are the first to go.
No efficient storage available in humans.
Mitochondria stop producing enough energy from sugar(vit.B1 deficiency), it's like having low batteries for our body: the game is almost over.
No laboratory test available on an emergency routine.
A quick injection of thiamine* and little ascorbic acid by mouth. Easy and cheap.
Only after parenteral thiamine you can feed glucose safely, without taking the risk of lactic acid overproduction and the so called 'refeeding syndrome'.
This is biochemistry for kids.
ikod [^]
*) Thiamine 100mg i.m.: there is a limited intestinal absorption of approx. 2.5mg/day, so the oral route is unusable in acute deficiency cases. Heart response is reported to be a matter of hours.
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Mitochondria stop producing enough energy from sugar(vit.B1 deficiency), it's like having
Don't forget the lack of carnitine production in Vitamin C deficiency. Fatty acids aren't burned for fuel either!
A quick injection of thiamine* and little ascorbic acid by mouth. Easy and cheap.
You could do an injection of ascorbic acid too. Bypass any problems with uptake in the gut. In this case you could do up to gram doses of vitamin C IV or IP. However, this would not likely be necessary - there haven't been that many cases of poor vitamin C uptake by oral administration.
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Hi VitaminC,
thanks for your further contribution.
I am afraid that this intensive cofactor administration protocol is not in any guideline of sort, and a bit neglected in the medical practice.
Years ago a so called 'coma cocktail' was proposed for patiens found unconscious: one of the 4 drugs in it was thiamine. Later on this practice has been criticized and I suppose abandoned by most ICU operators.
Undiagnosed beri-beri may be a lethal reality still.
Though it probably is a rare condition, more efforts should be made to spot it and treat it (easily).
ikod
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Hi VitaminC,
to revive our discussion here
I have a question for you all:
are there simple signs of a
subclinical scurvy, available
in everyday clinical practice?
ikoD [^]
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OK this isn't a proper, double-blind trial; but I get mouth ulcers a lot less often now that I regularly take vitamins. (My diet isn't very rich in vitamin C because I simply don't like the things that are good sources of it).
Incidentally, what's the definition of sub-clinical?
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OK this isn't a proper, double-blind trial; but I get mouth ulcers a lot less often now that I regularly take vitamins. (My diet isn't very rich in vitamin C because I simply don't like the things that are good sources of it).
Incidentally, what's the definition of sub-clinical?
Group B vitamins, Zinc or iron deficiency, coeliac disease, have been suggested as diet-related causes of mouth ulcers. So there could be a correlation in your case.
A cofactor/vitamin deficiency can be defined 'subclinical' when laboratory examinations show low values, the diet history itself suggests lack of a certain vitamin (anorexia, starvation, faddist diets, unsupplemented parenteral nutrition, etc.), but the patient feels fine and well. Actually, it would be better to say that the patient still does not shows the classic symptoms of a vitamin deficiency (scurvy in this case).
What could we expect in a child who had been eating for several weeks only pasta/chips and no fruit and veggies?
ikod [::)]
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The ascorbate and carnitine connection still needs further confirmation studies:
Is sudden death with vitamin C deficiency caused by lack of carnitine?
Okamoto M, Ueno Y.
Department of Legal Medicine, Kobe University Graduate School of Medicine, Kobe 650-0017, Japan. myok@med.kobe-u.ac.jp
We investigated the effect of carnitine supplementation during vitamin C (ASC) deficiency by measuring the levels of ASC and carnitine in plasma and cardiac muscle cells (CMC), and histological analysis with electron microscopy. The levels of carnitine were significantly decreased in ASC-deficient rats in plasma and the heart than those in the control. In carnitine supplemented ASC-deficient rats, a significant increase of carnitine levels were observed in both plasma and heart. The number of lipid droplets significantly increased in the ASC-deficient rats compared to the control rats, but did not increase in carnitine supplemented rats. These results indicate that ASC deficiency causes a generalized mitochondrial abnormality and accumulation of lipid droplets in CMC as observed in carnitine deficiency, and supplementation of carnitine prevented these changes even in the presence of ASC deficiency.
J Clin Forensic Med. 2006 Jan;13(1):26-9.
It sounds a bit odd to me: were not rats able to make their own ascorbic acid?
ikod [???]
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Strains of lab rats/mice/etc have been bred with all sorts of deficiencies, to mirror conditions affecting humans. If asked to guess I'd speculate that was why the rats in this instance weren't making their own ascorbate.
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Strains of lab rats/mice/etc have been bred with all sorts of deficiencies, to mirror conditions affecting humans. If asked to guess I'd speculate that was why the rats in this instance weren't making their own ascorbate.
Yes rosy,
they probably had 'knocked out' the enzyme gene
involved in ascorbate synthesis. This information
probably is in the full-text version which I cannot
reach.
Thanks for your reply...somebody is alive around here!
ikod [:D]
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they probably had 'knocked out' the enzyme gene
involved in ascorbate synthesis. This information
probably is in the full-text version which I cannot
reach.
Actually, if you look in the keywords in the abstract you can see the words "ODS rat" which refers to Osteogenic Disorder Shinogi (sp?) a rat strain that has no inherent acorbate synthesis - mutation in the L-gulonolactone oxidase gene. They are often used in ascorbate depletion studies, but they do have a couple other things wrong with them - they are an inbred model afterall.
are there simple signs of a
subclinical scurvy, available
in everyday clinical practice?
No. (simple answer)
The first reported symptom of vitamin C deficiency (before the onset of full scurvy symptoms) is fatigue. As you well know, that could be a result of anything. In the case of scurvy (or vitamin C deficiency) this is likely due to carnitine levels falling. However, since vitamin C levels (or carnitine as far as I know) are not in standard laboratory tests, I'm not sure how you would diagnose this in a patient except by looking at their diet.
What could we expect in a child who had been eating for several weeks only pasta/chips and no fruit and veggies?
See for yourself:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/3/e55?ck=nck
Besides exhaustion and weakness, there is usually some bleeding of the gums and joint pain, but also skin abnormalities (small petechial hemmorhages) and what they have termed "corkscrew" hair growth. Even with those symptoms, many patients don't realize something is wrong with their diet...
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Thanks for the article
and discussion VitaminC,
are there simple signs of a
subclinical scurvy, available
in everyday clinical practice?
No. (simple answer)
Why not? [?]
I think that subclinical scurvy should have specific signs, good enough for a careful observer.
I personally saw in one case only, a 8yr old child, several years ago, a scarlet discolouration of the gengival border corresponding to the superior canine and front teeth.
Just that, no bleeding, no perifollicular petechiae, very mild anemia and fatigue.
Diet history suggested a vitamin C deficiency, plasma AA levels were low: 0.2mg/dL (normal 0.4-1.6mg/dL). We were lucky to have a routine test running for research on thalassemic patients, so we could play with it.
Now it is much more difficult to obtain such results from a normal lab.
Unfortunately I didn't take a picture...it seemed so obvious!
In those days I was able to find somewhere that this particular sign is sort of typical in subclinical scurvy. Now this information seems to have vanished.
Maybe someone around here will find it for me.
If confirmed, it could be the 'junk food' sign of the new millennium!
ikod
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Surfing on GoogleImages I couldn't find anything better than this for you...
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphoenity.com%2Fdiseases%2Fimages%2Fscurvy_gingival_hemorrhage.jpg&hash=c2496627d2dfa681558016cbbc3ec391) (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.caregroup.org%2Fclinical%2Faltmed%2Finteractions%2FImages%2FNutrients%2FVitC.gif&hash=3159578c42cd6f9a896ede31c93331ce)
http://phoenity.com/diseases/images/scurvy_gingival_hemorrhage.jpg
http://home.caregroup.org/clinical/altmed/interactions/Images/Nutrients/VitC.gif
from a short 'disease info': http://phoenity.com/diseases/scurvy.html
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Interesting iea, say we teach all our doctors to look out for this and (at least here in the UK) that can all prescribe free vitamin C to anyone showing this reddening of the gums.
That means that the only observable effect of the disease will be this red colour. Does that mean that the red colour is a clinical sign of vitamin C deficiency and, if so, does it stop being sub- clinical.
My point is that if you can see a sign or symptom then I don't think you have a sub-clinical condition any more. Once you can spot it I think it's clinical. I accept that analysis of the blood might reveal relatively low ascorbate levels well before there were observable symptoms.
Hardlt an important point, just a matter of definition.
Oh, and incidentally,
"What could we expect in a child who had been eating for several weeks only pasta/chips and no fruit and veggies?"
I'd expect them to have overweight parents, but I don't think that's a symptom. :-)
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That means that the only observable effect of the disease will be this red colour. Does that mean that the red colour is a clinical sign of vitamin C deficiency and, if so, does it stop being sub- clinical.
My point is that if you can see a sign or symptom then I don't think you have a sub-clinical condition any more. Once you can spot it I think it's clinical. I accept that analysis of the blood might reveal relatively low ascorbate levels well before there were observable symptoms.
Hardlt an important point, just a matter of definition.
You are right B.C.
(you don't sound so much bored!)
Subclinical scurvy should be low AAlevels and no signs or symptoms.
Assuming that red gums in a particular area could come much before
and last for long, if the diet is just poor of vitamin C...
Well...there is so much to be studied and confirmed still!
But you are right: it's not subclinical if you see a sign...clinically. [:o)]
Take care
ikod
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Subclinical scurvy should be low AA levels and no signs or symptoms.
Assuming that red gums in a particular area could come much before
and last for long, if the diet is just poor of vitamin C...
Well...there is so much to be studied and confirmed still!
I was simply saying that ascorbic acid deficiency is not routinely tested for (how many physicians actually check for plasma ascorbate status?) and that the symptoms of its deficiency are too non-specific not to be other problems. Even gum problems can occur in those that have 'sufficient' vitamin C in the diet - there is nothing specific to vitamin C.... except actual blood tests.
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Hi VitaminC,
we should have AAplasma levels in our laboratory routine.
Actually this test is based on a cheap and simple chemical reaction estabilished in 1941.
Its use has been sort of abandoned, due to lack of scorbutic patients...and interest.
In my personal opinion, the area between florid scurvy and mild deficiency in concurrent diseases still needs further investigation.
BTW did you know that Ascorbic acid in cerebral spinal fluid is 3-4 times more concentrated than in peripheral blood (plasma)?
This cofactor should really do something important in our brain, to be 'pumped' so efficiently across the blood brain barrier! [;)]
ikod
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I found this article and hypothesis
about human brain evolution quite
interesting, a bit too much ascorbate-
-centered you'll probably think...
This thread deserves such a link:
http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/THE_FOUNDATION/About_Dr_Matthias_Rath/publications/pub12.htm
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww4.dr-rath-foundation.org%2Fimages%2Fsc_pub%2Fpub12_evofig2%255B1%255D.gif&hash=f76dee939620bcfbe0a7f9b0ca38194a)
http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/images/sc_pub/pub12_evofig2%5B1%5D.gif
" The discoveries presented in this publication open the opportunity to greatly improve human health in this generation and future generations of mankind"
...talking about modesty! [:D]
ikod [^]
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By any discussion about diagnosis and treatment of the scurvy it need to bear in mind that, “The main criteria for diagnosing scurvy are:
• A history of dietary inadequacy of vitamin C.
• Clinical manifestations characteristic of a scorbutic state (Tables 3 and 4).
• Biochemical indices, i.e. low levels of vitamin C in the blood (serum, white blood cells and whole blood) and a low urinary excretion rate.
The clinical picture of scurvy in children is quite different from that seen in adults” http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1999/WHO_NHD_99.11.pdf
The clinical picture of scurvy in guinea pigs is quite different from that seen in humans.
For example if someone is affected by any negative health condition it is enough to detect low level of vitamin C and to be diagnosed with scurvy it shows how ridiculous is wisdom about vitamin C and illnesses because any known negative health condition can be named as scurvy.
Another example “Babies of mothers who took extremely high doses of vitamin C during pregnancy can develop infantile scurvy.” http://www.becomenatural.com/blog/2006/12/scurvy-former-terror-of-the-seas/
Again in this case the scurvy is diagnosed by detection of low level of vitamin C in the body.
In reality the intake of extremely high dose of vitamin C is damaging mother’s health and negative health condition by baby is caused and in same time is reflection of negative health condition by mother that is caused by intace of high dose of vitamin C.
Question is it any dose of vitamin C necessary or is just snake oil that doesn’t have any beneficiary effect but in most case damaging peoples health.
It needs to bear in mind that vitamin C is just one millions other molecules that human’s body contain.
I start this topic with intention to explain that events that lead to establish the role between vitamin C and scurvy is “The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the blasphemy” are littered with quackery and need to be re-examined.
If scurvy didn’t have disappeared from sea thanks to lime juice than plenty of present wisdom about causes and treatment of illnesses will be re-examined.
On this point the discussion about current wisdom about diagnosis and treatment doesn’t make productive discussion but flooding the tread.
Back to the subject (The scurvy, The vitamin C and the blasphemy)
In 1867 it was made mandatory for all ships in both the Royal Navy and British Merchant Navy to include lime juice in the sailors' daily rations to prevent scurvy.
In everyone’s mind is that is what saves sailors from the scurvy. But on the other side there isn’t reported any outbreak of the scurvy.
Only the British sailors where obligate to drink lime juice but in the other navy sailors wasn’t.
If drinking the lime juice has protected the British sailors from the scurvy, than question is why sailors from other navies didn’t experience any outbreak of the scurvy?
It means that drinking the lime juice to ward scurvy was meaningless, because scurvy already disappeared long time ago from the sailor’s life.
Claim that drinking the lime juice will prevent scurvy sounds unfounded.
Anyway it will be constructive if anyone can point on the evidence that show any outbreak of the scurvy on the sea after year 1850.
Luka Tunjic
http://www1.biomechanicsandhealth.com/
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"It needs to bear in mind that vitamin C is just one millions other molecules that human’s body contain. "
Yes, it happens to be the molecule that cures scurvy. Also, it's the molecule known to be responsible for the production of hydroxyproline which is needed to make connective tissue; this is lacking in scurvy.
"If scurvy didn't have disappeared from sea thanks to lime juice than plenty of present wisdom about causes and treatment of illnesses will be re-examined. "
True but irrelevant. Scurvy did disappear when better food,not least citrus juices, were introduced.
It took a little longer to realise that the stuff had to be kept properly.
"If drinking the lime juice has protected the British sailors from the scurvy, than question is why sailors from other navies didn't experience any outbreak of the scurvy?"
They did get scurvy, and if they hadn't we might not have one some of our more famous naval battles.
"Only the British sailors where obligate to drink lime juice but in the other navy sailors wasn't."
Bastards that we were, we wanted to keep winning so we didn't give away the secret.
"Claim that drinking the lime juice will prevent scurvy sounds unfounded."
I don't agree; it seems perfectly well founded to me both empirically (it worked) and on the basis of the well documented biochemistry.
"Anyway it will be constructive if anyone can point on the evidence that show any outbreak of the scurvy on the sea after year 1850. "
True, because it will destroy your idea that it was some physical effect of being at sea. The sea hasn't changed since 1850.
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Hi VitaminC,
we should have AAplasma levels in our laboratory routine.
Actually this test is based on a cheap and simple chemical reaction estabilished in 1941.
Its use has been sort of abandoned, due to lack of scorbutic patients...and interest.
In my personal opinion, the area between florid scurvy and mild deficiency in concurrent diseases still needs further investigation.
BTW did you know that Ascorbic acid in cerebral spinal fluid is 3-4 times more concentrated than in peripheral blood (plasma)?
This cofactor should really do something important in our brain, to be 'pumped' so efficiently across the blood brain barrier! [;)]
ikod
Now let's be serious for a while again...
Does anybody know what is concentrated ascorbic acid doing in our brains?
Even more concentrated in preterm babies and newborns?
It is an old finding, still a mystery to me!
ikod [???]
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Hi VitaminC,
we should have AAplasma levels in our laboratory routine.
Actually this test is based on a cheap and simple chemical reaction estabilished in 1941.
Its use has been sort of abandoned, due to lack of scorbutic patients...and interest.
In my personal opinion, the area between florid scurvy and mild deficiency in concurrent diseases still needs further investigation.
BTW did you know that Ascorbic acid in cerebral spinal fluid is 3-4 times more concentrated than in peripheral blood (plasma)?
This cofactor should really do something important in our brain, to be 'pumped' so efficiently across the blood brain barrier! [;)]
ikod
Now let's be serious for a while again...
Does anybody know what is concentrated ascorbic acid doing in our brains?
Even more concentrated in preterm babies and newborns?
It is an old finding, still a mystery to me!
ikod [???]
...and even in various 'ocular compartments'
ascorbic acid is concentrated 20 folds in respect to plasma!
http://www.iovs.org/cgi/reprint/32/8/2266.pdf
To protect from ultraviolet rays oxidizing effects?
Isn't this just fascinating...
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmchan.com%2Fretail%2Fspa%2Fpic.jpg&hash=59bb7e8f09b1542d6993e44b9fb9111c)
http://www.bmchan.com/retail/spa/pic.jpg
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Linus Pauling and vitamin C
(The physical damage to people he (Linus Pauling) led astray cannot be measured.)
A flyer distributed in 1991 by the Linus Pauling Institute recommended daily doses of 6,000 to 18,000 mg of vitamin C, 400 to 1,600 IU of vitamin E, and 25,000 IU of vitamin A, plus various other vitamins and minerals. These dosages have no proven benefit and can cause troublesome side effects.
Although Pauling's megavitamin claims lacked the evidence needed for acceptance by the scientific community, they have been accepted by large numbers of people who lack the scientific expertise to evaluate them.
Thanks largely to Pauling's prestige, annual vitamin C sales in the United States have been in the hundreds of millions of dollars for many years.
The physical damage to people he led astray cannot be measured. http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pauling.html
The fear from illnesses, diseases and premature death make humans highly vulnerable to quackery. Before any discussion about miracle healing property of vitamin C it is useful to confront with some fact about recently claims about healing property of vitamin C.
Luka Tunjic
http://www1.biomechanicsandhealth.com/
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Linus Pauling was just plain wrong about vitamin C. Those repeating his claims abouyt it curing cancer are also wrong; if they are doing it to make a fast buck then they are frauds and should be prosecuted as such.
It is true that people's fear of illness can lead to all sorts of odd behaviour (personally I think prayer is one of the oddest things it can produce but that's another topic). Taking big vitamin C pills when you have a cold is relatively harmless and the placebo effect may well make the overall effect on humanity beneficial.
The oposite of this quackery is science; for example the science shows that adequate levels of vitamin C are required to prevent scurvy (science really shows this whether you like it or not).
It also shows that excessive consumption is at best a waste of money, and in extreme cases harmful.
That's a really good reason for singing the praises of science; not for talking nonsense about established biochemistry.
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(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.minerva.unito.it%2FTheatrum%2520Chemicum%2FR1%2FpaulingOld.jpg&hash=f2cf6cf9d080352110d4ab1e795529f5)
http://www.minerva.unito.it/Theatrum%20Chemicum/R1/paulingOld.jpg
Linus Pauling was just plain wrong about vitamin C. Those repeating his claims abouyt it curing cancer are also wrong; if they are doing it to make a fast buck then they are frauds and should be prosecuted as such.
It is true that people's fear of illness can lead to all sorts of odd behaviour (personally I think prayer is one of the oddest things it can produce but that's another topic). Taking big vitamin C pills when you have a cold is relatively harmless and the placebo effect may well make the overall effect on humanity beneficial.
The oposite of this quackery is science; for example the science shows that adequate levels of vitamin C are required to prevent scurvy (science really shows this whether you like it or not).
It also shows that excessive consumption is at best a waste of money, and in extreme cases harmful.
That's a really good reason for singing the praises of science; not for talking nonsense about established biochemistry.
I feel too ignorant to agree with you about Linus Pauling.
I respect and admire scientists who studied their beloved biochemistry in the past century, especially those who managed to get 2 (two) Nobel prizes in a row.
There is something missing about vitamin C and cancer.
Obviously there is no cure in taking lots of ascorbic acid just like that.
If you study carefully what has been done in the past, well, Cameron et al. claimed positive results in a few patients with lymphosarcoma. Nobody published negative results later on, then -I think in '85- a negative report was published, concerning colon cancer patients...
I mean, to disprove those theories they chose just one disease, the most resistant to any drug treatment, one that is practically cured by early surgery only. Is that so scientific? I must say that the editorial commenting on those results was making this point clear.
I see a sort of attitude to disrespect this type of scientific issues.
Then we are ready to miss a diagnosis of scurvy in a malnourished child.
We can also diagnose 'multiorganfailure' a shoshin beriberi starving for weeks in ICU.
Neglected has been even a study showing that one third of leukemic children had low AA values compared to 3% in the normal population. This may sound nothing to the most, certainly not to me.
After ages of ignorance, now we know that properly nourished leukemic kids do better through chemotherapy. How clever we are.
There are ups and downs even for extremely smart scientists.
Maybe Pauling went too high in the recent past...he will rise again.
ikod [^]
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...Some ICU operators started giving i.v. vitamin C to severely burned patients.
This recent experimental (poor sheep!) report actually supports previous clinical 'evidence':
High-dose vitamin C infusion reduces fluid requirements in the resuscitation of burn-injured sheep.
Shock. 2005 Aug;24(2):139-44.
Dubick MA, Williams C, Elgjo GI, Kramer GC.
U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research, San Antonio, Texas 78234-6315, USA. Michael.Dubick@amedd.army.mil
Fluid resuscitation to maintain adequate tissue perfusion while reducing edema in the severely burned patient remains a challenge. Recent studies suggest that reactive oxygen species generated by thermal injury are involved in edema formation associated with burn. The present study tested the hypothesis that adding a free radical scavenger to the resuscitation fluid would reduce total fluid requirements in the treatment of severe thermal injury. Anesthetized chronically instrumented sheep received a 40% total body surface area full-thickness flame burn. At 1 h after injury, animals were resuscitated with lactated Ringer's (LR, n = 14) as control, LR containing high doses of vitamin C (VC, n = 6), 1000 mOsM hypertonic saline (HS, n = 7), or 1000 HS containing VC (HS/VC, n = 7) in coded bags so that investigators were blinded to the treatment. Fluids were infused at an initial Parkland rate of 10 mL/kg/h, adjusted hourly to restore and maintain urine output at 1 to 2 mL/kg/h. Sheep in the VC or HS/VC group received 250 mg/kg VC in the first 500 mL of LR or HS, and then 15 mg/kg/h thereafter. Hemodynamic variables and indices of antioxidant status were measured. At 48 h postburn, sheep were euthanized, and heart, liver, lung, skeletal muscle, and ileum were evaluated for antioxidant status. All fluid resuscitation regimens were equally effective in restoring cardiac output to near baseline levels; no treatment effects were apparent on arterial pressure or heart rate. VC infusion significantly reduced fluid requirements and, therefore, net fluid balance (fluid in, urine out) by about 30% at 6 h and about 50% at 48 h in comparison with the LR group (P < 0.05). HS and HS/VC reduced fluid requirements by 30% and 65%, respectively, at 6 h, but the volume-sparing effect of HS was not observed after 36 h and that of HS/VC was lost after 12 h. Plasma total antioxidant potential increased about 25-fold (P < 0.05) at 2 and 3 h in response to VC infusion compared with the LR and HS groups, and remained about 5- to 10-fold higher throughout the rest of the study. VC infusion also prevented the 4-fold increase in plasma thiobarbituric acid reactive substances seen in the LR group early after burn (P < 0.05). Tissue antioxidant status was similar between groups. In this sheep burn model, continuous high-dose VC infusion reduced net fluid balance, reduced indices of plasma lipid peroxidation, and maintained overall antioxidant status in comparison with standard-of-care LR treatment.
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Oops. I guess I took too long of a break from this forum. So much to reply to!
BTW did you know that Ascorbic acid in cerebral spinal fluid is 3-4 times more concentrated than in peripheral blood (plasma)?
This cofactor should really do something important in our brain, to be 'pumped' so efficiently across the blood brain barrier! [;)]
Certainly. If you read the work by Mark Levine and others with the knockout mice model of the vitamin C transporter SVCT2, you'll see the absolute importance of vitamin C in the brain and the CSF.... especially in newborns. SVCT2 is the only route by which vitamin C can enter the placenta.
http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v8/n5/full/nm0502-514.html
I start this topic with intention to explain that events that lead to establish the role between vitamin C and scurvy is “The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the blasphemy” are littered with quackery and need to be re-examined.
You need to understand what Scurvy is before you can really understand why vitamin C is liked to it. Scurvy is deficiency in several biosynthetic processes within the cell by which reduction/oxidation reactions in a metal-containing enzyme is necessary for full activity. Does this mean that vitamin C is absolutely necessary for enzymatic activity of these processes? No -- vitamin C is not an absolute requirement, but the enzymes cannot work at full capacity without vitamin C. The deficiency (in strict biochemical terms) is not in vitamin C itself, but in the enzymatic activities that vitamin C participates in. That is the true nature of scurvy.
But does this difference really matter? If you don't eat vitamin C, you will die. It's an absolute requirement for life. How we differentiate the disease versus the molecule that treats the disease is a question of semantics.
Also, I should point out in all your examples about vitamin C and lime juice -- lime juice did NOT cure scurvy in the British Navy, because the limes did not have as much vitamin C in them as lemons. Some sailors still developed the disease, just fewer than before.
Other navies had other methods for dealing with vitamin C loss. Tomatoes, potatoes, cabbage -- why do you think pickled cabbage was necessary for German Navy?! Scurvy prevention. It's been going on since the time of the vikings. All you need is fresh fruit and/or vegetables - citrus is NOT a requirement.
People still get scurvy today. Infants, children, adults, elderly. It just is more prevalent in children and the elderly. Adults, especially alcoholics - as was mentioned by Ikod - also suffer from vitamin C deficiency. Have you seen the vitamin C levels in dialysis patients? The wound healing is terrible for these people, and they still won't give them a glass of orange juice.
Does anybody know what is concentrated ascorbic acid doing in our brains?
Even more concentrated in preterm babies and newborns?
It is an old finding, still a mystery to me!
Protection, for the most part. But also don't forget vitamin C's role in neurotransmitter production.
Again, this is due to the role of SVCT2, which is also present in the eye.
Linus Pauling and vitamin C
(The physical damage to people he (Linus Pauling) led astray cannot be measured.)
Linus Pauling was not a quack - he dealt with the information that he had at the time. He was a very brilliant chemist... but he was NOT a biologist. He knew vitamin C was important, but he did not know everything about the vitamin. This is mainly because most of the important vitamin C research as been done in the last two decades. Pauling died in 1993, if I recall correctly, just as the field was getting some much deserved attention.
A flyer distributed in 1991 by the Linus Pauling Institute recommended daily doses of 6,000 to 18,000 mg of vitamin C, 400 to 1,600 IU of vitamin E, and 25,000 IU of vitamin A, plus various other vitamins and minerals. These dosages have no proven benefit and can cause troublesome side effects.
Vitamin C levels in these doses can have some side effects, but in most people they do no harm. However, if you bothered to notice, the vitamin C levels recommended by the Linus Pauling Institute are no longer this high:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu
They have learned from the evidence that is around them, but that doesn't say that vitamin C levels of this level do nothing... read on, and I'll explain.
The fear from illnesses, diseases and premature death make humans highly vulnerable to quackery. Before any discussion about miracle healing property of vitamin C it is useful to confront with some fact about recently claims about healing property of vitamin C.
Certainly. Vitamin C cannot do everything. However, vitamin C can do a lot more than people are willing to give it credit for. I don't want to go into too much detail right now (this is already getting long) but vitamin C is gaining more and more roles as we learn more about it - and what regulated its level in the body! Pauling's hypotheses about vitamin C and cancer are finally getting some rigorous evidence to back it up:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/174/7/937
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/104/21/8749
...Some ICU operators started giving i.v. vitamin C to severely burned patients.
This recent experimental (poor sheep!) report actually supports previous clinical 'evidence':
Yes, burn injury in sheep is a good model for humans. Vitamin E also seems to be very protective against systemic reactions to major burns. Many oxygen radicals being produced during these insults.
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Wow
Thank you so much whoever is hiding under VitaminC!
I had been drowning in nice cod liver oil in the last few years.
I must say I neglected ascorbic acid literature a bit:
this short update of yours is quite refreshing indeed.
ikod [^]
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(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flpi.oregonstate.edu%2Ff-w03%2Fimages%2FTriplehelix.jpg&hash=e316d802fec3ff4480431ff5a17ece32) (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.minerva.unito.it%2FTheatrum%2520Chemicum%2FR1%2FpaulingOld.jpg&hash=f2cf6cf9d080352110d4ab1e795529f5)
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w03/images/Triplehelix.jpg
http://www.minerva.unito.it/Theatrum%20Chemicum/R1/paulingOld.jpg
There are ups and downs even for extremely smart scientists.
Maybe Pauling went too high in the recent past...he will rise again.
ikod [^]
I couldn't really imagine his return happening right NOW!
Thanks again for your citations VitaminC:
I'll cross AA&ca on PubMed again...after long years of skepticism.
ikod [;)]
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I know someone who gave himself scurvey by only eating packet food for about 6 months while sailing to Australia in an open boat. He got the classic symptoms, bleeding gums not repairing injuries. Luckily a doctor in the bush in NE Austrailia worked out the problem and put him on Vitamin C and it clear up in a week or two...
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Was he trying for a Darwin award? It's not as if a packet of multivitamins would have taken up a lot of space in the boat.
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Yabadabadu
Yes. One example out of many that shows how proper information* can make the difference between life or death.
ikod [;)]
* Could we call it 'culture'?
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pathguy.com%2Flectures%2Fjames_lind.jpg&hash=8210f35c39d21dbcea04a527e93f2df0) (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fec1.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F412JYPV8X1L._AA240_.jpg&hash=411650c62845f2c5e4bf7429cee4bb94)
http://www.pathguy.com/lectures/james_lind.jpg
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/412JYPV8X1L._AA240_.jpg
http://www.pathguy.com/lectures/nutr.htm
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MRI.
Yes
New, sophisticated technologies to diagnose a very old disease.
MR Imaging in a Child with Scurvy: a Case Report.
Choi SW, Park SW, Kwon YS, Oh IS, Lim MK, Kim WH, Suh CH.Department of Radiology, College of Medicine, Inha University, Incheon, Korea. swpark88@inha.ac.kr.
Scurvy is very rare disease in industrialized societies. Nevertheless, it still exists in higher risk groups including economically disadvantaged populations with poor nutrition, such as the elderly and chronic alcoholics. The incidence of scurvy in the pediatric population is very low. This study reports a case of scurvy in a 5-year-old girl with cerebral palsy and developmental delay based on MRI findings.
Korean J Radiol. 2007 Sep-Oct;8(5):443-7.
...more from: http://www.kjronline.org/abstract/view_articletext.asp?year=2007&page=443
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If you think the incidence of scurvy in the pediatric population is so "very low" take a look at the work of Dr. C.A.B. Clemetson, MD and Dr.Archie Kalokerinos, MD in relation to "accelerated infantile scurvy-endotoxemia" and it possible emergence as "classical" Shaken Baby Syndrome. http://truthquest2.com/johnlaverty/index.htm
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It appear to me that the shaken baby syndrome is recently given name for a few decades ago unknown and at the present misunderstood medical condition that mostly affect children of age from tree months to one years. It seems that incidence of “Baby Shaken Syndrome” have increased in recent decades.
First of all, there is never been reported witnessed injury and accusing the parents or caregiver for this kind of medical condition is highly questionable.
In case of “Baby Shaken Syndrome” the parents-care giver are accused of physically inflecting negative medical condition and in
In case of “Scurvy” the parents – care giver are accused of negligence.
In case that is caused by vaccination the blame is to vaccination.
In all tree case it shows that today the humans can’t afford to admit limitation of own knowledge and that is obstacle to any progress in understanding of cause and prevention of negative medical condition.
The Baby Shaken Syndrome can be very interesting topic and I suggest, start the new topic in New Theories tread.
In this topic present strong evidence that shows that;
1. On recorded history from the sea about scurvy incidence, there is no rational ground to accept theory about cause and prevention of the scurvy
2. There is no rational ground to accept theory about cause and prevention of the scurvy based on Lind’s trial.
3. There is no rational ground to accept theory that guinea pig is not able to synthesize the vitamin C.
I presented strong evidence that support my theory. On the other side on this topic no one present any evidence that contradict to my theory.
Luka Tunjic
Biomechanics and Health (http://biomechanicsandhealth.blogspot.com/)
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You don't seem to have read the same thread as I have.
The one I read showed that
1 There is a documented mechanism by which lack of vitamin C leads (through a failure to synthesise hydroxyproline) to a failure of the connective tissues in the body and so to scurvy.
2 That people are occasionally still found to have scurvy; these people can be treated and cured by administration of vitamin C.
It didn't say anything particularly favourable about Lind's work or the sea but that reflects the fact that by the time people were doing proper clinical trials scurvy was much less of a problem because proper food had largely solved the problem.
As far as I recall your theory said something about scurvy being due to the motion of the sea. Well the sea still has just as many waves as it ever had, but the incidence of scurvy is much reduced.
You never yet managed to explain how guinea pigs (not known for nautical tendencies) manage to get scurvy (and, they do as indicated by the website I cited even if you don't choose to believe it).
I fail to see any evidence for your ideas and I see ample evidence refuting it.
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1. On recorded history from the sea about scurvy incidence, there is no rational ground to accept theory about cause and prevention of the scurvy
2. There is no rational ground to accept theory about cause and prevention of the scurvy based on Lind’s trial.
3. There is no rational ground to accept theory that guinea pig is not able to synthesize the vitamin C.
I presented strong evidence that support my theory. On the other side on this topic no one present any evidence that contradict to my theory.
I want to try to understand your statement here before I can make any claim one way or another. Are you simply suggesting that based on records of voyages at sea pre-19th or 20th century and James Lind's 'trial' that there is no definitive causal factor for the development, treatment or prevention of scurvy? If so, then I agree.
But how many people knew what Beriberi was in 1792? or Rickets? or Pellagra? Just because we didn't know what it was then, doesn't mean that we're not right now. As boredchemist stated, we have plausible mechanisms for the development of scurvy in conditions of vitamin C deficiency. How many people have developed scurvy when plasma ascorbic acid levels were adequate?
As for your issue #3:
(my paraphrase of results)
Ascorbate-deficient diets cause guinea pigs to get scurvy (Martensson et al. 1993, PNAS)
Ascorbate-free diets induced the development of scurvy in Guinea pigs (Margitti et al. 2005 J Nutr).
Guinea pigs not fed vitamin C develop collagen abnormalities (Mahmoodian and Pererofsky, 1999 J Nutr).
Vitamin C reduces damage to Guinea Pigs previously depleted of that vitamin (Barja et al. 1994 Free Radicals Biology and Medicine)
and Guinea pigs (in captivity) lack a functional L-Gulonolactone oxidase gene and are incapable of synthesizing vitamin C: Burns et al Science, 1956; Hassan and Lehninger J. Biol. Chem. 1956; Chatterjee et al Biochemistry, 1960; Odumosu and Wilson, Nature 1973; Jenness et al. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology 1980
I could go on, but I don't feel like it.
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Guinea pig and quack theory
Guinea pig and quack-theory
The facts about experiment on which is based theory that guinea pigs can’t synthesise vitamin C.
In 1902, Axel Holst, a Norwegian professor of bacteriology and hygiene who had been concerned at the appearance of what had been diagnosed as beriberi in the crews of Norwegian sailing ships, seized an opportunity to visit Grijns in Batavia and to see his work on chicken polyneuritis. On his return to Oslo, he attempted to obtain a closer model of "ship-beriberi" by using a mammal as his experimental species, and chose guinea pigs. He fed them grains, either whole or milled, and found that they all died within 30 d. When the carcasses were opened he saw "pronounced hemorrhages" and looseness of the molar teeth. Theodor Frölich, a pediatrician with experience of infantile scurvy, confirmed that the condition appeared to be scurvy with no evidence of any kind of polyneuritis. The two men then found that the condition was not produced by semistarvation, and that it was prevented by giving two traditional antiscorbutics, lemon juice and fresh cabbage
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/4/975
Before any discusion is usefull to remind of some facts about guinea pigs.
Grass is the guinea pig's natural diet.
Guinea pigs tend to be fickle eaters when it comes to fresh fruits and vegetables, having learned early in life what is and is not appropriate to consume, and their habits are difficult to change after maturity.[
They do not respond well to sudden changes in diet; they may stop eating and starve rather than accepting new food types
A constant supply of hay or other food is generally recommended, as guinea pigs feed continuously and may develop habits such as chewing on their own hair if food is not present
Guinea pigs are prey animals whose survival instinct is to mask pain and signs of illness, and many times health problems may not be apparent until a condition is severe or in its advanced stages.
Treatment of disease is made more difficult by the extreme sensitivity guinea pigs have to most antibiotics, including penicillin, which kill off the intestinal flora and quickly bring on episodes of diarrhea and death
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pigs
Taking in account that grass is guinea pigs natural diet and that grains, either whole or milled isn’t, shows that feeding the guinea pigs with grains either whole or milled is actually exposing them to starvations to the some extent and in the same time to the some extent of slow poisoning (semi starvation combined with slow poisoning),
They didn’t prevent death of guinea pigs by giving them lemon juice by continuing to feed them with grain, either whole or milled.
They didn’t prevent death or reverse condition induced by feeding guinea pigs with the grain by continuing the feeding with grain and cabbage because the guinea pig will ignore the grains, either whole or milled and will eat only cabbage because cabbage is guinea pigs natural diet and grain, whole or milled is not..
They prevented (condition) guinea pigs from death by giving them, lemon juice and fresh cabbage.
Taking in account that guinea pigs “do not respond well to sudden changes in diet; they may stop eating and starve rather than accepting new food types” it is questions how Axel Holst convinced guinea pig to eat grain at all. It is like convince lions to eat broccoli and lemons.
Lion natural diet is meat and if you fed them with broccoli and lemon the lions surly will develop scurvy if he doesn’t die before.
This experiment on which is founded theory that gunea pigs can’t syntetise vitamin C can be simply described as; with metod of slow poisioning and semi starvation by guinea pig is induced condition that is treated by discontinuing the starvation and slow poisioning and repleaced with natural diet (cabbage) and aded a drop of snake oil (lemon juice).
Healing and remedial property of the lemon juice and citrus in general the humans discovered long time age only in this case the lemons juice is used as snake oil.
Luka Tunjic
http://www.biomechanicsandhealth.com/
I rely didn’t expect that is necessary to say anything more about guinea pigs. It is obvious from evidence that theory that guinea pigs can’t synthesise vitamin C is unintentionally or intentionally fabricated.
It is obvious that guinea pig used for this experiment died without any symptom of scurvy. It didn’t get prickle bones or bleeding gums, or broken bones, or anything also that in these more sane times was necessary to diagnose scurvy.
The evidence shows that the guinea pig after thirty days of starvation/seamy starvation died without any symptoms of scurvy.
The guinea pig isn’t diagnosed with scurvy when it was alive because there wasn’t any symptom of scurvy.
Guinea pig was dead when she or he was diagnosed with scurvy. How long guinea pig was dead before she/he was diagnosed with scurvy we can’t see from to me available evidence.
The theory, which says guinea pigs can't Synthesise vitamin C is not based on guinea pig but on a guinea pig corpse.
Luka Tunjic
http://www.biomechanicsandhealth.com/
Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
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Pronounced heamorage and loose molars are signs of scurvy.
"Theodor Frölich, a pediatrician with experience of infantile scurvy, confirmed that the condition appeared to be scurvy "
"the condition was not produced by semistarvation"
"it was prevented by giving two traditional antiscorbutics"
You are right about there being no need to say anything more about guinnea pigs getting scury. They get scurvy- as shown by their symptoims and by expert testimony.
These symptoms are relieved by antiscorbutics.
That's pretty much proof that it's scurvy. The fact that guinnea pigs still get the disease today if not properly fed but can be treated by giving a more aproplrate diet proves that it's still true that, like us, guinnea pigs can't produce vitamin C.
Now if the "unnatural diet had anything to do with the matter then feeding the things with grain (which, it sems to have escaped your notice, is a grass) shouldn't be a problem- it's part of their normal diet.
On the other hand, cabbage leaves and lemon juice certainly are not (both cabbage and lemon are Mediteranean in origin whereas the guinnea pig is from South America)
So your idea that a foriegn diet was responsile for the death of these animakls is not just wrong, its the exact opposite of what the evidence says.
They fed them grass (what you say is their normal diet) and they got ill. That fed them cabbage (clearly not their normal diet) and they got better.
At best, you have shown that the precise course of the disease in guinnea pigs is different from that in humans- so what?
As for things like this "How long guinea pig was dead before she/he was diagnosed with scurvy we can’t see from to me available evidence. "
Well just for a start, we do know something of the answer. It was sufficiently recently dead that you could diagnose bleeding and loose teeth.
I grant that we don't know if that's an hour or a day or what but, like the poor creatures name, it doesn't matter.
Many diseases are easiest to diagnose post mortem. It's perfectly normal practice. I can only think you are raising the matter to distract attention from the paucity of the rest of your argument.
So, in summary, you say "will eat only cabbage because cabbage is guinea pigs natural diet " in spite of cabbage being from the wrong continent.
You say "Lion natural diet is meat and if you fed them with broccoli and lemon the lions surly will develop scurvy if he doesn’t die before." repeatedly inspite of having no evidence.
You say "The evidence shows that the guinea pig after thirty days of starvation/seamy starvation died without any symptoms of scurvy." even though the expert who examined it said it did have scurvy.
And you fail to notice that grains are, in fact, grass.
You overlook the fact that people occasionally still get scurvy and it is cured by vitamin C.
You overlook the fact that the mechanism of this problem (ie the failure to convert proline to hydroxyproline)is well known.
You have yet to answer my comments on your idea that scurvy is somehow related to the waves of the sea. Here's what you said;
"Scurvy disappeared on the end of nineteen and beginning of twenty of century, in same time when big, stabile on the water, steam powered ships replaced smaller wind powered ships.
Did scurvy disappeared because of adequate amount of vitamin C in sailors diet or because of introducing steam powered ships that was much bigger in size and because of bigger size they are more stabile on the water."
Scurvy still exists so it hasnt disapeared, not in the 19th C, nor the 20th nor, sadly, in the 21st.
Scurvy troubled other populations apart from sailors- notably prisoners (who had a restricted diet with little fruit or fresh green veg) and guinea pigs.
Neither of these groups does a lot of sailing.
The sea still has just as many waves as it always had, yet the incidence of scurvy has reduced a lot.
You have not even shown the courtesy to comment on VitaminC's comments and the papers they cited showing, explicitly, that guinea pigs get scurvy.
Do you actually have any valid points to make, or are you just spouting the same nonsense repeatedly?
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Do you actually have any valid points to make, or are you just spouting the same nonsense repeatedly?
Why you flooding this topic with rude post without providing any reasonable argument. It is against forum rules to do so.
You should know that such posts lowering the credibility of Necked Science.
My intention isn’t to replying on unintelligent and rude posts but to exchange thought with people that are not afraid to think.
If you don’t like my topic still there is plenty other and you can start your own topic.
I hope you will not tray force me to reply to you again.
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I believe I have provided reasons for all the arguments I have put forward. I have also asked you for reasons for the arguments you have put forward. You have not provided them.
I believe that any damage I do to Naked Science is minor compared to the risk of leaving unevinced guesswork such as yours unanswered.
I'm quite prepared to think- that's why I noticed things like your assertion that cabbage being part of theguinea pig's natural diet is inconsistent with them having evolved on separate continents.
You will lose such credibility as you still have if you continue to fail to answer the questions I have asked. I can't force you to reply- but if you don't, people will assume it is because you cannot find answers.
So, here they are again.
If vitamin C isn't the cause of scurvy what is?
Do you really think it's anything to do with the movement of ships?
If so, how do you explain the fact that it happens to people who are not on ships, for example prisoners?
If you don't think it's anything to do with ships why did you post that bit in your original post?
Why does scurvy clear up when treated with vitamin C?
How do you explain the fact that the mechanism of action of vitamin C has been established on a biochemical basis as vitamin C being a cofactor in the conversion of proline to hydroxyproline?
On the subject of being rude, since you raised it, I will repeat my question about why you ignored the data provided by "VitaminC"'s post?
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Hammocks (hanging beds) and The Scurvy
In 1492 Hammocks were first introduced to Europe by Christopher Columbus when he brought many hammocks back to Spain from islands in the present day Bahamas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammock
Imidietly after Columbus brought the hamocks, they were adopted for use in sailing ships.
The first recorded outbreaks of scurvy happened in the year of 1497 (Vasco Da Gama’s first voyage).
There is no reported incidence of scurvy on Bartolomeu Dias voyage from 1486 - 1488.
It is for sure that the ships of Bartholomew Dias weren’t equipped with hammocks because it happened before hamocks were introduced in Europe.
It seems that Vasco da Gama’s ships where equipped with hammocks because Vasco da Gamma’s first voyage happened five years later after hamocks were introduced in Europe.
(I don’t have any evidence that Wasco de Gama’s ships where equipped with hammocks. I think that after hammocks were brought to Europe they where immediately adopted for use in sailing ships. Where or not Wasco De gama’s ships equped with hamokcs is the question that I couldn’t find the answer.)
Incidences of scurvy in Royal Navy are strongly asociated with hamocks.
Before Hamokcs were adopted for use on ships there is no recorded outbreack of the scurvy in the Royal Navy.
Around 1590, hammocks were adopted for use in sailing ships; the Royal Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammock
The first reported ourbreack of scurvy the English captain Sir Richard Hawkins is dating around that times.
The English sea captain Sir Richard Hawkins stated in 1622 that "In 20 years, since that I have used the sea, I dare take upon me to give accompt of 10,000 men consumed with scurvy" emphasizing the magnitude of the problem.
http://www.ltdk.helsinki.fi/users/hemila/history/
One more fact is that mainly, if not only, the sailors where afected with scurvy and the oficer wasn’t.
More background on the story shows that mainly the poor sailors got scurvy and the officers did not........ http://waltonfeed.com/self/health/vit-min/c.html
For majority of the people, the food is most obvious explanation for nearly almost every condition but in reality there is something more important then differences in food.
One of difference between sailors and officer is that officers were sleeping on beds and there were no beds for the sailors, just, hammocks.
It seems that hamocks played a crucial role in the outbreack of scurvy.
Apearence of bigger ships lead to the replacment of the hamocks with the beds and is asociates with disappearence of the scurvy.
I could’t find no one recorded outbreack of the scurvy were beds were avible for the sailors.
On the other hand there are two facts;
(1) Not every voyage is folowed by outbreack of scurvy.
(2) By outbreacks of the scurvy not every sailors was afected with scurvy.
It is to conclude that under sertain sircumstance sleeping on the hamoks for prolonged period of times while traweling on unstabile ship will sooner or later triger scurvy.
http://www.biomechanicsandhealth.com/biomechanicsandstroke.htm
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So, we wait over a year and you come back. You fail to answer the questions asked and you say this
"The first recorded outbreaks of scurvy happened in the year of 1497 (Vasco Da Gama’s first voyage). "
Well; it's simply not true.
The ancient Greeks knew about scurvy.
It was described by Hippocrates (c. 460 BC–c. 380 BC).
There's a timeline for scurvy here.
http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/658/Mayberry.html
Anyway as was pointed out at some length before.
People in jail used to get scurvy; they don't go sailing.
Guinea pigs get scurvy- but they don't go sailing.
Vitamin C cures scurvy whether people stay on ship or not.
The detailed mechanism by which a shortage of vitamin C leads to scurvy is well understood.
You point out that "One more fact is that mainly, if not only, the sailors where affected with scurvy and the officer wasn't."
And as has been said before, that's because the officers were better fed.
While we are at it lets have a laugh at your supposed suggestion.
You say it's due to sleeping in hamocks.
yet, as you say "(1) Not every voyage is folowed by outbreak of scurvy.
(2) By outbreaks of the scurvy not every sailors was affected with scurvy."
Well, since every voyage was accompanied by sailors in hammocks and all the men- not just some of them - slept in hammocks, your own data shows that your idea must be wrong.
Once again I ask do you have anything to contribute or are you just spouting nonsense?
(and BTW, your latest website is hilarious.)
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So, we wait over a year and you come back. You fail to answer the questions asked and you say this
"The first recorded outbreaks of scurvy happened in the year of 1497 (Vasco Da Gama’s first voyage). "
I did wonder why I hadn't spotted this threadbefore then noticed the dates... [???] I'm curious to know why the posters decided to take the graveyard shift and resurrect this thread?
For GBSB, Ascorbic acid is required biochemically for a squillion things... but in terms of scurvy its needed as a cofactor ( although not a prosthetic group I believe) with lysyl and prolyl hydroxylase. Both these enzymes are essential in collagen structure.
Vit C is the D-enantiomer of ascorbic acid.
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Actually I fibbed, it's the L-enantiomer...I can't tell my left from my right!!! [;D]
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My guess is the GBSB is trying to use this as a springboard for his weird ideas and website.
He has already been told many times that the biological role of ascorbic acid is well documented.
Reality doesn't seem to trouble him much.
Nor does the fact that propper science requires him to answer questions.
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My guess is the GBSB is trying to use this as a springboard for his weird ideas and website.
He has already been told many times that the biological role of ascorbic acid is well documented.
Reality doesn't seem to trouble him much.
Nor does the fact that propper science requires him to answer questions.
And yet its us(scientists) that are accused of being narrow-minded for not indulging and draconian when we question.
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I came recently on idea about the conection between the hamokcs-hangin bed and the scurvy weil researching the cause for autism and other neurological disorders. That is the reason why I posted after so long time I have started this topic. When I started this topic two years age I wasn’t aware of hamocks-hanging bed.
Didn’t find any walid argument against my hypotesis but pleanty rude words.
There is no point to future discusion.
You keep your belif ebaut Vitamin C. As wel as you can belive that vitamin C will prevent or even cure baldnes.
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Didn’t find any walid argument against my hypotesis but pleanty rude words.
There is no point to future discusion.
You keep your belif ebaut Vitamin C. As wel as you can belive that vitamin C will prevent or even cure baldnes.
There are plenty of valid arguments supported by years of research. As for rude words.... enantiomer isn't a rude word,although I often think it should be.There is no point is future discussion because you are coming out with complete tripe, although it is amusing to read.
I am doing ok on the baldness front thanks, but you could always try believing that hammock beds cure impotence, then rig one up for yourself and sleep on it. That will help your difficulties no end.
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Didn’t find any walid argument against my hypotesis but pleanty rude words.
Look properly.
The fact that guinnea pigs don't sleep in hammocks but do get scurvy proves that sleeping in hammocks doesn't cause scurvy and that your idea is wrong.
As for "There is no point to future discusion.
"
well, until you learn about evidence I guess you are right.
Incidentally, before you go, perhaps you would like to answer the questions I set a year or so ago.
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Guinea pig and quack-theory
The facts about experiment on which is based theory that guinea pigs can’t synthesise vitamin C.
In 1902, Axel Holst, a Norwegian professor of bacteriology and hygiene who had been concerned at the appearance of what had been diagnosed as beriberi in the crews of Norwegian sailing ships, seized an opportunity to visit Grijns in Batavia and to see his work on chicken polyneuritis. On his return to Oslo, he attempted to obtain a closer model of "ship-beriberi" by using a mammal as his experimental species, and chose guinea pigs. He fed them grains, either whole or milled, and found that they all died within 30 d. When the carcasses were opened he saw "pronounced hemorrhages" and looseness of the molar teeth. Theodor Frölich, a pediatrician with experience of infantile scurvy, confirmed that the condition appeared to be scurvy with no evidence of any kind of polyneuritis. The two men then found that the condition was not produced by semistarvation, and that it was prevented by giving two traditional antiscorbutics, lemon juice and fresh cabbage
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/4/975
Before any discusion is usefull to remind of some facts about guinea pigs.
Grass is the guinea pig's natural diet.
Guinea pigs tend to be fickle eaters when it comes to fresh fruits and vegetables, having learned early in life what is and is not appropriate to consume, and their habits are difficult to change after maturity.[
They do not respond well to sudden changes in diet; they may stop eating and starve rather than accepting new food types
A constant supply of hay or other food is generally recommended, as guinea pigs feed continuously and may develop habits such as chewing on their own hair if food is not present
Guinea pigs are prey animals whose survival instinct is to mask pain and signs of illness, and many times health problems may not be apparent until a condition is severe or in its advanced stages.
Treatment of disease is made more difficult by the extreme sensitivity guinea pigs have to most antibiotics, including penicillin, which kill off the intestinal flora and quickly bring on episodes of diarrhea and death
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pigs
Taking in account that grass is guinea pigs natural diet and that grains, either whole or milled isn’t, shows that feeding the guinea pigs with grains either whole or milled is actually exposing them to starvations to the some extent and in the same time to the some extent of slow poisoning (semi starvation combined with slow poisoning),
They didn’t prevent death of guinea pigs by giving them lemon juice by continuing to feed them with grain, either whole or milled.
They didn’t prevent death or reverse condition induced by feeding guinea pigs with the grain by continuing the feeding with grain and cabbage because the guinea pig will ignore the grains, either whole or milled and will eat only cabbage because cabbage is guinea pigs natural diet and grain, whole or milled is not..
They prevented (condition) guinea pigs from death by giving them, lemon juice and fresh cabbage.
Taking in account that guinea pigs “do not respond well to sudden changes in diet; they may stop eating and starve rather than accepting new food types” it is questions how Axel Holst convinced guinea pig to eat grain at all. It is like convince lions to eat broccoli and lemons.
Lion natural diet is meat and if you fed them with broccoli and lemon the lions surly will develop scurvy if he doesn’t die before.
This experiment on which is founded theory that gunea pigs can’t syntetise vitamin C can be simply described as; with metod of slow poisioning and semi starvation by guinea pig is induced condition that is treated by discontinuing the starvation and slow poisioning and repleaced with natural diet (cabbage) and aded a drop of snake oil (lemon juice).
Healing and remedial property of the lemon juice and citrus in general the humans discovered long time age only in this case the lemons juice is used as snake oil.
Luka Tunjic
http://www.biomechanicsandhealth.com/
All over the world, students are learning in the schools and universities that the guinea pigs can’t synthesise vitamin C. Well… here are a few facts about that experiment, on whose theory this is based on, are that guinea pigs can’t synthesise vitamin C. http://www.biomechanicsandhealth.com/scurvyandfraud.htm#600345756
Axel Holst and Theodor Frölich claimed that they prevented guinea pigs from death by giving them, lemon juice and fresh cabbage.
The fact is that the Guinea pig can’t drink lemon juice because the lemon juice is too strongly sour for their tiny little bodies.
It seems too obvious that the ad hoc theory; “guinea pigs can’t synthesise vitamin C” is the product of a fraudulent experiment.
http://www.biomechanicsandhealth.com/scurvyandfraud.htm#600345756
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Oh look!
"The fact is that the Guinea pig can’t drink lemon juice because the lemon juice is too strongly sour for their tiny little bodies."
An assertion put forward without any evidence.
Here is the original claim.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_guinea_pigs_drink_lemon_juice
No evidence is offered.
In any event we know which genes it is that the guinea pig lacks that prevent it making vitamin C.
I had hoped this thread full of nonsense had died.
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It should have done. I'll be locking it now.