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  4. Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
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Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #300 on: 24/04/2021 13:35:02 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/04/2021 22:10:58
An interstellar or intergalactic civilization will have to deal with communication and transportation problems. Interactions among different stellar or galactic systems can't happen in real time. We will have limited bandwidth and big latency problems. The solutions must contain decentralisation or localization of resources, akin to edge computing I've mentioned in another thread. Local problems are better solved locally. Global problems are better solved globally. Universal problems are better solved universally.
There's some balance between centralization and decentralisation process. Centralization has the advantage due to economy of scale. It's more obvious for complex processes involving many different parts. Different processes can share the same facilities. Waste or side products from a process can be used as raw materials for another process.
On the other hand, decentralisation has its own advantages.  It has lower distribution costs. It's where the distance between resource productions and resource consumptions can be minimized.
« Last Edit: 24/04/2021 14:00:37 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #301 on: 26/04/2021 23:00:20 »
Most people agree that a goal can only be conceived by conscious beings.
Quote
Telos has been consistently used in the writings of Aristotle, in which the term, on several occasions, denotes 'goal'.[6] It is considered synonymous to teleute ('end'), particularly in Aristotle's discourse about the plot-structure in Poetics.[6] The philosopher went as far as to say that telos can encompass all forms of human activity.[7] One can say, for instance, that the telos of warfare is victory, or the telos of business is the creation of wealth. Within this conceptualization, there are telos that are subordinate to other telos, as all activities have their own, respective goals.

For Aristotle, these subordinate telos can become the means to achieve more fundamental telos.[7] Through this concept, for instance, the philosopher underscored the importance of politics and that all other fields are subservient to it. He explained that the telos of the blacksmith is the production of a sword, while that of the swordsman's, which uses the weapon as a tool, is to kill or incapacitate an enemy.[8] On the other hand, the telos of these occupations are merely part of the purpose of a ruler, who must oversee the direction and well-being of a state.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telos
Aristotle already acknowledged the difference between terminal goal and instrumental goal,  which he called telos and techne.
« Last Edit: 27/04/2021 02:04:09 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #302 on: 27/04/2021 11:40:24 »
Many people are confused between consciousness and intelligence. Yuval Noah Harari pointed this out in some of his talks. He correctly identified intelligence as ability to solve problems. But he falsely identified consciousness as ability to feel and having emotions.
Previously I've described consciousness as superset of intelligence. In other words, it takes more than intelligence to become conscious.
« Last Edit: 27/04/2021 11:50:57 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #303 on: 27/04/2021 12:50:40 »
From evolutionary biology we know that life formed from simpler processes. Artificial neural networks also started similarly. They consisted of input layer and output layer only, without hidden layer. It resembled reflex responses in living organisms.
More complex problems require more complex solutions. Such as adding one or more hidden layers between inputs and outputs. Feelings and emotional responses resemble these processes. Rational thoughts require more hidden layers. That's why they are called deep neural networks.
In complex organisms capable of  rational thoughts, emotion and reflex are usually still kept functional. They can provide shortcuts to provide solutions for many simple problems requiring less time and computational resources.
« Last Edit: 27/04/2021 21:32:47 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #304 on: 27/04/2021 13:06:08 »
Feelings and emotions also provide feedback mechanism for the neural networks. They become internal leading indicators so the system know whether it is going to the right direction.
Simple organisms with no internal feedback mechanism must rely on external feedbacks to evaluate their actions. Their survival from an event is their positive feedback, while their death is their negative feedback. It's extremely hard to learn when your own death is your only negative feedback. In artificial neural networks, the learning process is done by adjusting weight of neural connections through back propagation. No learning is possible when the whole network is destroyed.
« Last Edit: 27/04/2021 16:32:05 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #305 on: 28/04/2021 13:02:14 »
Mark Solms: A New Approach to the Hard Problem of Consciousness

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David Chalmers’s (1995) hard problem famously states: “It is widely agreed that experience arises from a physical basis, but we have no good explanation of why and how it so arises.” Thomas Nagel (1974) wrote something similar: “If we acknowledge that a physical theory of mind must account for the subjective character of experience, we must admit that no presently available conception gives us a clue about how this could be done.” This presentation will point the way towards the long-sought “good explanation” -- or at least it will provide “a clue”. Prof Solms will make three points:

(1) It is unfortunate that cognitive science took vision as its model example when looking for a ‘neural correlate of consciousness’ because cortical vision (like most cognitive processes) is not intrinsically conscious. There is not necessarily ‘something it is like’ to see.

(2) Affective feeling, by contrast, is conscious by definition. You cannot feel something without feeling it. Moreover, affective feeling, generated in the upper brainstem, is the foundational form of consciousness: prerequisite for all the higher cognitive forms.

(3) The functional mechanism of feeling explains why and how it cannot go on ‘in the dark’, free of any inner feel. Affect enables the organism to monitor deviations from its expected self-states in uncertain situations and thereby frees homeostasis from the limitations of automatism. As Nagel says, “An organism has conscious mental states if and only if there is something that it is like to be that organism—something it is like for the organism.” Affect literally constitutes the sentient subject.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #306 on: 28/04/2021 13:03:38 »
The Source of Consciousness - with Mark Solms
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Mark Solms discusses his new theory of consciousness that returns emotions to the centre of mental life.

Understanding why we feel a subjective sense of self and how it arises in the brain seems like an impossible task. Mark explores the subjective experiences of hundreds of neurological patients, many of whom he treated. Their uncanny conversations help to expose the brain’s obscure reaches.

Mark Solms has spent his entire career investigating the mysteries of consciousness. Best known for identifying the brain mechanisms of dreaming and for bringing psychoanalytic insights into modern neuroscience, he is director of neuropsychology in the Neuroscience Institute of the University of Cape Town, honorary lecturer in neurosurgery at the Royal London Hospital School of Medicine, and an honorary fellow of the American College of Psychiatrists.

This talk was livestreamed by the Ri on 28 January 2021.

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #307 on: 28/04/2021 13:34:06 »
Those videos above provide important information necessary to solve problem of consciousness, aside from different conclusions between me and Mark Solms. At least we agree that consciousness requires internal feedback mechanism, which gives us preferences and dislikes. Here is where we start to diverge.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/04/2021 13:02:14
Quote
(2) Affective feeling, by contrast, is conscious by definition.
IMO, feeling alone is not adequate to describe consciousness. Intoxicated persons with various degrees/magnitudes have different levels of functionalities in their input functions, memory, cognitive, verbal, and motoric functions. Hallucination and dizziness are factors reducing overall consciousness. The same person has different level of consciousness while in REM phase, deep sleep, or coma.
« Last Edit: 29/04/2021 03:11:00 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #308 on: 28/04/2021 23:01:11 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/04/2021 13:02:14
Quote
(1) It is unfortunate that cognitive science took vision as its model example when looking for a ‘neural correlate of consciousness’ because cortical vision (like most cognitive processes) is not intrinsically conscious. There is not necessarily ‘something it is like’ to see.
Among human senses, vision provides highest resolution inputs. It can reach objects from long distances as well as shorter ones. The way we imagine our environments are usually done in visual representation. It's hard to do that through other type of senses such as taste or auditory.

« Last Edit: 29/04/2021 03:17:17 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #309 on: 29/04/2021 10:05:49 »
The Future Of Reasoning
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #310 on: 30/04/2021 07:19:13 »
Fei-Fei Li & Yuval Noah Harari in Conversation - The Coming AI Upheaval
Quote
Watch Yuval Noah Harari speak with Fei-Fei Li, renowned computer scientist and Co-Director of Stanford University's Human-Centered AI Institute -- in a conversation moderated by Nicholas Thompson, WIRED's Editor-in-Chief. The discussion explores big themes and ideas, including ethics in technology, hacking humans, free will, and how to avoid potential dystopian scenarios.
The event was hosted at Stanford in April 2019, and was jointly sponsored by the university's Humanities Center, McCoy Family Center for Ethics in Society, and the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence (HAI).

Quote
11:45 Unlike philosophers who are extremely patient people, they can discuss something for thousands of years without reaching any agreement and they are fine with that, the engineers won't wait. And even if the engineers are willing to wait, the investors behind them won't wait.
« Last Edit: 30/04/2021 07:27:41 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #311 on: 01/05/2021 15:56:18 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/04/2021 23:01:11
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/04/2021 13:02:14
Quote
(1) It is unfortunate that cognitive science took vision as its model example when looking for a ‘neural correlate of consciousness’ because cortical vision (like most cognitive processes) is not intrinsically conscious. There is not necessarily ‘something it is like’ to see.
Among human senses, vision provides highest resolution inputs. It can reach objects from long distances as well as shorter ones. The way we imagine our environments are usually done in visual representation. It's hard to do that through other type of senses such as taste or auditory.


Vision alone only covers input part of a conscious system. It still requires other parts like self awareness, preference or feedback mechanism, and output or actuating system to change its environment. However, it's possible to build a conscious system where its input from environment is exclusively visual.
« Last Edit: 01/05/2021 16:21:11 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #312 on: 01/05/2021 16:38:29 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/04/2021 13:02:14
David Chalmers’s (1995) hard problem famously states: “It is widely agreed that experience arises from a physical basis, but we have no good explanation of why and how it so arises.” Thomas Nagel (1974) wrote something similar: “If we acknowledge that a physical theory of mind must account for the subjective character of experience, we must admit that no presently available conception gives us a clue about how this could be done.”
There are several ways for a problem to be harder to solve.
- add more parameters, hence increasing the precision.
- add uncertainty by removing some important information.
- add false assumptions or information which are subtle and hard to identify.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #313 on: 01/05/2021 16:45:52 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/04/2021 13:03:38
Understanding why we feel a subjective sense of self and how it arises in the brain seems like an impossible task. Mark explores the subjective experiences of hundreds of neurological patients, many of whom he treated. Their uncanny conversations help to expose the brain’s obscure reaches.

Mark Solms has spent his entire career investigating the mysteries of consciousness. Best known for identifying the brain mechanisms of dreaming and for bringing psychoanalytic insights into modern neuroscience, he is director of neuropsychology in the Neuroscience Institute of the University of Cape Town, honorary lecturer in neurosurgery at the Royal London Hospital School of Medicine, and an honorary fellow of the American College of Psychiatrists.
His career seems to make him heavily biased towards human consciousness, and obstruct his insights into alternative forms of consciousness. It appears to me that he has taken Chalmers'and Nagel's conclusions uncritically, in contrast to other alternative explanations.
« Last Edit: 01/05/2021 16:49:38 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #314 on: 01/05/2021 17:26:45 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/05/2021 15:56:18
Vision alone only covers input part of a conscious system. It still requires other parts like self awareness, preference or feedback mechanism, and output or actuating system to change its environment. However, it's possible to build a conscious system where its input from environment is exclusively visual.
It looks like those subsystems of conscious entities contribute to overall consciousness, while their effectiveness can be independent from each others. In this case, overall consciousness can be represented as the result of matrix multiplication of the subsystem's effectiveness to achieve their respective goals.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #315 on: 01/05/2021 22:20:12 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/05/2021 15:56:18
Vision alone only covers input part of a conscious system. It still requires other parts like self awareness, preference or feedback mechanism, and output or actuating system to change its environment. However, it's possible to build a conscious system where its input from environment is exclusively visual.
It's no surprise that Tesla's full self driving cars will be based on vision. It would be rather surprising if they were based on other types of senses, such as sound, smell, touch, or taste.
« Last Edit: 02/05/2021 23:04:01 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #316 on: 01/05/2021 23:09:49 »
We have been accustomed with biological consciousness which are based on organic chemistry, with neurons that work on electrochemical signals. For artificial intelligence as the core of artificial consciousness, the process is based on electronic signals working in electronic semiconductors.
But there are possible alternatives, such as optical computers, electromechanical, mechanical, hydraulic, and pneumatic computers.
« Last Edit: 02/05/2021 01:50:27 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #317 on: 02/05/2021 06:36:40 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/05/2021 23:09:49
But there are possible alternatives, such as optical computers, electromechanical, mechanical, hydraulic, and pneumatic computers.
Most of those alternatives are evidently less effective and efficient, also much slower than current standard computers. But knowing about them may become valuable when they are the only options available for us.

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Scientists have found that a brainless, single-celled organism is capable of solving mazes and even learning. This remarkable organism is broadly known as slime mold, though there are many kinds.
https://appvoices.org/2019/10/11/slime-mold-intelligence/
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #318 on: 02/05/2021 11:18:12 »
Learning ability requires memory storage within the conscious system which can be changed by experience. So if we want to propose a formula to represent overall consciousness into a number, we will need to include memory capacity and other related parameters such as it's update rate and robustness. It might be similar to how we do benchmarks on computers.
« Last Edit: 02/05/2021 11:28:43 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #319 on: 02/05/2021 14:41:20 »
Memory space and processing speed are parts of intelligence, which is itself part of consciousness. According to orthogonality thesis, intelligence and terminal goal can be independent from each other. Hence we can assign a number to represent the alignment between them.
This number can be depicted as the angle directing a vector in complex plane.
« Last Edit: 02/05/2021 14:45:44 by hamdani yusuf »
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