Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: Budge on 21/10/2003 17:07:50
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IDIOT!
yeah this board is about as scientific as the scum on the bottom of my shoe.
So wonder people on my endocrine boards take 10 years to get diagnosed and some die.
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Budge
I am very sympathetic to the terrible problems you have had with your health (and I'm not exhaggerating, as I'm sure you are not, it genuinely sounds as though you have had a torrid time and are very down).
However, when I see the way that you have behaved on this forum, I am not at all surprised that you have faced an uphill struggle reaching a diagnosis and being taken seriously by the medical profession.
If you treat those trying to care for you the same way that you have addressed me, and the other people kind enough to give up their time to visit this website and to become involved in the educational environment that we strive to create, then you can expect to be treated (or not treated in your case) with disdain and indifference.
This is a friendly forum. Please let's try to keep it that way. I am sympathetic to your problems, but lots of people have to cope with ill-health and being nasty to people is not going to make you better.
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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Well put, Chris. I received a personal e-mail from Victoria and responded the same way. Only mine wasn't as eloquent. Well, I wasn't mean and I didn't cuss her, but I felt that she attacked the forum. I'm very protective of my family. [:)]
Here's what was relayed:
Victoria Hill <peepinbudge@xxxxx.com> wrote:
"I am very sick and was seeking help and all I get from you is more fat bigotry.
By the way my endo does not think I overeat.
How can you say that utter bull**** to someone diagnosed with 2 diseases.
I have tried to diet --I LOST 160lbs when I got medicated and thyroid treated stopped, I have only regained about 20lbs in last month as my friggin hair has started to fall out.
So you know you can give me your smart ass attitude--and just slough me off just like all the other jerks who did as I was dying in the late 90s.
I saved my life and got thyroid and other problems treated.
Youre not the one losing vision and hearing. Fat is actually the least of my freaking problems.
My doctor wants an MRI for me and neurologist DEFINITELY wants it.
But youre just a jerk who resorts to fat jokes. Youre sick. I am praying to God that you are not a doctor with fat patients you can do harm too. You are amoral as far as I am concerned and one of the most evil people Ive met on line.
I want to live and while youre busy being an asshole, Ill continue my fight."
"Well, Victoria, I'm not actually evil. But, I'm not too concerned about defending myself here and now. I'm sorry to hear about all your ailments and hope you get well. Forgive the fat jokes, but know that I wasn't using the opportunity to crack a joke. The reason for my response, as it was, is because you came on and started ripping on others. If you have to lash out at someone, save it for a more juvenile forum. Think about seeing "WHOOOO CAARRES" at the bottom of your post. I doubt very seriously that you would have liked that and probably wouldn't have reacted with any sort of grace toward it. There are alot of very informed and compassionate people on that forum, and if you had been patient and played right, you would have gotten some very pertinent information. Maybe even some friends. However, since you didn't, you were ridiculed....again. I'm sure it's nothing new to you. I know how cruel people are. If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten. If it hasn't already been deleted, you should go back and read the string of entries there. Observe your posts and think how it would've come across if I or someone else acted as you did. Rethink your approach the next time you enter a forum of new people and get to know someone before you belittle them. Thank you and good luck.
Ronnie"
Now, I feel bad for the girl, and I feel bad about the cheap shot I took, but won't tolerate ill behavior. My apologies if I stepped out of line.
Ronnie
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Apparently I missed all the action here when I was at work. I was really curious about what was wrong with her. Did anyone have ideas, other that the ones she has already been diagnosed with? If her weight was that high, I don't see how anyone could eat enough calories to maintain that weight. There must be something endocrine going on there, but the other issues == the blindness and hearing loss. Didn't know what was going on with that and had hoped we'd get some discovery. Too bad. I guess after years and years of fat jokes, it can get on your last nerve and make you over sensitive. Sounds like she's scared and frustrated.
Bezoar
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I've heard that diabetes can cause blindness. Diabetes is pretty common for overweight people. I just think that when you have such maladies and your body is in such bad shape, it tends to react adversly. The hair loss and the hearing loss, as well as the vision loss are probably side affects of high blood pressure / diabetes. I find it hard to believe that her doctors are stumped and aren't telling her to do something drastic to lose some weight. I'm not insensitive to people who are overweight. Some of my family members are quite large. But, when you're morbidly obese, you should take some drastic measures to stay alive. It just seems to be such an epedimic here in the states to be overweight and I'm tired of the glandular / disease excuses. I hope she finds help and does overcome some of her ailments. Particularly her attitude.
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What happened to the actual post though?
Am I dead? Am I alive? I'm both!
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stupid-boy.com%2Fsmilies%2Fkao%2Fotn%2Fcat.gif&hash=e4b91a72c020cc1c5d28487fff5428f1)
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It was archived in a place appropriate to its content...under RB (for recycle bin).
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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She and I e-mailed last night and she was a little apologetic. I apologized to her and told her to come back when she wanted. She was a bit rigid. She said someone else had pissed her off, but I thought I was the only one that was ****ty to her. Hope she finds help.
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Still though Ronnie, when you see obesity of that magnitude, I think there really is an endocrine problem going on. The hair loss shouldn't be coming from diabetes or high blood pressure. And the deafness? Something really bad is going on with her, and I don't think anyone has properly diagnosed her, and it sounds like she's tried diets with minimal success. Some of the medications which prevent absorbtion of fats might help. You know, there really is discrimination against obese people. Two of my best friend are obese and I've watched them struggle with their weight over the years. Dieted and gained back over and over again. I also have to watch my weight all the time. One of the girls took Redux for weight loss, and whereas it seemed like a miracle pill for her, she now is dying of pulmonary hypertension from the Redux. It's a sad struggle and everyone thinks it's lack of willpower. I believe there is carbohydrate addiction, however, why are we so hard on the carb addicts, yet we indulge the alcoholics, drug addicts, even gambling addicts as having an illness. It's all addiction, no matter how you look at it. So why don't they get the respect of having an "illness" like the rest of the addicts?
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I'm sorry but I don't buy that Bezoar.
I've watched what some fat people eat and it would feed me for a week. They honestly lack self control and the education of what constitutes a healthy diet and a healthy lifestyle.
I had one woman who sat in a surgery with me and told me all she ate were steamed vegetables. But if I ate a ton of steamed brocccoli tomorrow I could reasonably expect my weight to increase (by a ton !).
The laws of physics and thermodynamics are not different for fat people. Energy in = energy out + energy stored. In a person with a steady weight the equation is in equilibrium. The determinants of 'energy out' are heat, growth and exercise. It is a fallacy to say "it's my metabolism doc" because fat people have, by definition, a higher metabolic rat than a leaner individual because by virtue of their increased size they have to have a greater muscle mass to move it all around. This constitutes more lean tissue and hence a higher metabolic rate. The number of people in whom a genuine endocrine cause underlies their size is, unlike them, minute.
Losing weight is hard because fat contains 8 times as much energy per unit weight as a carbohydrate source.
Most people fail on a diet because they are too ambitious and their expectations are too high. They invariably half starve themselves, metabolise all their glycogen over the first few days, lose all of the water bound by the glycogen thus giving them a huge over-estimate of the rate of weight loss and the idea that this diet mullarkey is a pieces of p1ss. Then the week after, when they genuinely begin to burn fat and the weight loss slows to 1-2 pounds a week rather than the 8 they lost in the first week, not surprisingly they get arsed off and binge on high calorie foods sending their weight yo-yoing back to a higher level than it was to start off with.
The best way to diet is to aim for a gentle weight loss brought about by a modest reduction in calories and an increased level of exercise. Exercise needn't be a slog down the gym. Taking the stairs instead of the lift burns a huge number of calories for instance. Exercise is essential because it preserves lean tissue and hence maintains a high metabolic rate which promotes weight loss.
Crucially, avoiding high fat foods - like chocolate - are essential. Those 'little treats' are invariably calorie righ and capable of undoing all the good you've done all day.
Self control and a long term goal are the key.
Geogrpahy also plays a role - A recent study by nutritionists in Pen. addressing the so-called French Paradox which says "why are the French so svelte despite their apparently appalling fat-rich diet of croissants, pastries and moules mariniere ?" compared the sizes of portions dished up in French restaurants and supermarkets with portions in equivalent outlets across America. The results were staggering. Portion sizes were at least 50-80% larger, on average (across the board) in the US compared with France. So the study concluded that although the French diet is fat-loaded the overall caloric intake, an the overall fat-load is still lower than your average American diet and hence the rising prevalence of obesity. People are just eating too much. Researchers ahve found that if you put less food on a smaller plate most people don't notice and most claim to feel equivalently full afterwards.
In the UK we are close on your heels. If we don't do something about this soon we'll all be diabetic.
One thing that really gets my goat is if I take baggage that is slightly over the weight limit on an aeroplane. The buggers charge me for the excess.
Now I'm slim. I don't see the fat person next to me in the queue getting a bill for his beer belly so why am I penalised ? I think your own body weight should be taken into account when calculating excess baggage.
Rant over.
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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That is a good rant Chris. As for the diet and weight loss, I'm certainly no expert, but I've discovered that mixing protein, carbohydrates and fats in the right balance can make the reduction in calories much more effective and tolerable. If I eat a meal of carbohydrates and little protein and fat (like a salad or pasta), I'm up for a couple of hours and then starving as my blood sugar crashes. Then it's back to the fridge. However if I eat 3 or 4 ounces of meat along with a cup of vegetables and a little fruit, I'm quite satisfied for three to four hours, and even then I'm not just ravenous. It's pretty simple, but I lost 45 pounds (20 kg) and have kept it off for a year. And the best part is that I feel great eating that way - all sorts of little things went away. Including my bald spot and most of my grey hair.
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No words of wisdom here.
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Preach on, brother! I completely agree. It's a rare case that something internal would cause such weight gains in a person. The body doesn't want to be overweight. Our bodies tell us things and we act accordingly. Now I do agree with Nancy about addiction. I'm an alcaholic and am in recovery. I had a problem and I faced it. I did not go from doctor to doctor, forum to forum telling them that I couldn't understand why I pissed away years of my life because I only drank on special occasions. No, I drank alot and screwed up 23 years of my life. I admitted it and moved on to take action against it. Are you to blame? No. Is it glandular? Hell no. Is it an obsession of the mind? Yes. However, it is an addiction none the less. Alcaholism as merely an "ism" as are many crutches. The excessive consumption of food is an "ism". Anything in excess is a bad thing. We live in a nation of gluttony where the bar and the buffet are king. In my opinion, excessive consumption is a residue of deeper ****. I'm tired of the whining that goes on about how everybodies problems stem from something outside of themselves. There are cases where situations are out of one's control. However, if you're fat, you're not a victim. If you're an addict of any kind, you're not a victim. People get in line to martyr themselves and tell you how they're victimized by society. You have to take control of your life. The only fish that go with the flow are dead fish. It's not about fat... It's about being accountable and not getting all twisted off when someone points out the obvious. The thread that started this was an overly emotional attempt to be lied to. Lip service to justify another trip to the kitchen. What about gastric(sp) bypass? Or, God forbid, get on a treadmill.
Sorry, the whole "It's glandular" thing just has me frazzled.
Some are sicker than others... including myself.
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Geez, you guys are awfully tough. I pass this on to you for what it's worth. During one of my pregnancies when I was craving ice cream, my obese exhusband and I pigged out on ice crean the entire weekend. At the end of the weekend, and we ate the same amount, I gained two pounds and he gained five.
I do think some people's bodies are more efficient than others in storing excess calories as weight. Then too, a person with one obese parent has 50/50 odds of having an obese child. I really think genetics has something to do with this as well as hormones. When I was nursing my children, unlike most mothers, I didn't lose weight and found it impossible to take it off, despite reasonable eating and the extra calories burned up by lactating. But when the nursing subsided and I began menstruating again, the weight came off quickly. This is a field that needs more research, but I think we need to give the carbohydrate addicts at least as much compassion as we give the other addicts, and offer them the help too. It is very common to see an adult child of an alcoholic who is a teetotaler, but is obese cause he/she just got the carb addiction in a different form. The only way you'd know for sure what the intake is would be to hospitalize her and get a true account of her intake. And some doctor along the way should have done that.
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It's very easy to mislabel a condition as 'genetic' because a child is fat and has 2 fat parents. But what is likely to be the major contributing factor is that the child is fat because it eats the same way as its parents - to excess and on the wrong stuff - and takes no exercise. This is termed a 'phenocopy' where an individual has the same body habitus as the relatives, but for environmental, rather than genetic reasons.
I grant you that most fat people are victims of their genes - we have evolved to survive under conditions of uncertain energy intake and our bodies are just not capable of handling the energy density nor regularity with which we feed ourselves. But that comes down to education and behaviour. Eating a healthy diet involving food in moderation, not eating an excess of high calorie highly refined junk (like chocolate, chips (that's English for "fr-eyes") and crips, washed down with lashings of sugar-loaded pop and a few beers to boot) and taking regular exercise (rather than the lift) make all the difference.
Some of my (luckily suitably distant) relatives are borderline-bloaters but try telling them that by adding half a block of cheese to their jacket potato they've just quadrupled the calorie content ! They and most of the population will say to their doctor "I only eat a jacket potato for lunch..."
People grossly underestimate, and under report, what they eat.
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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I agree, which is why Budge needed to be hospitalized to get a clear picture of her eating habits. I also think there are those people who will always have to eat a calorie restricted diet to just maintain a normal weight, therefore to lose weight would be so restricted as to be almost impossible. This is very discouraging for those unfortunate ones, Don't know if I could do it. Chris, how many diabetics do you know that stay on their diet? I don't know many. It's a tough thing to tell someone that for the rest of their lives they will have to eat significantly less food that the rest of us just to have a normal weight.
Bezoar
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On the other end of the scale, if a female stops menstruating after a history of severe anorexia, is it a simple matter of re-balancing the height/weight ratio before menstruation will commence once more? [By simple matter, I mean biologically not psychologically]. Also, what is the long-term damage [if any] of years spent without menstruating due to being under weight?
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Women cease to menstruate once their total body fat falls below about 15% of total body weight. Many highly trained athletes are amenorrhoeic (don't have periods), as are many anorexics. The consequence is recuced bone mass, premature onset of osteoporosis and pathological fractures.
A study in the British Medical Journal (I think) from about 1994 or 1995 was entitled "Can mannequins menstruate". The researchers visited clothes stores and based on measurements of their mannequins calculated the percentage body fat that a woman the shape of a mannequin would carry. In direct contradiction to the slim, lithe, healthy adn fertile physique that mannequins seek to portray and inflict on women, the finding of the study was that, overwhelmingly, shop mannequins, if they were people, would be infertile !
That said, if mannequins were the same size as a large proportion of the western population these days the shops wouldn't sell many clothes because there would only be room for one mannequin in the window, and the mannequin would probably have a better chance of getting pregnant too !
Indeed a recent study of large men found that a higher proprotion of their sperm is 'fragmented' compared with slimmer men, making them less fertile. For women, being too large increases your chances of infertility, breast cancer, and endometrial cancer. These are probably oestrogen-driven phenomena because peripheral fat produces oestrogens in increased amounts as the level of stored fat goes up.
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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Now there goes Chris again, cracking on my obese country. You know, it's just cause y'all have such awful food and you're jealous. If I had to live on English food, I guess I wouldn't have any trouble controlling my weight either! So maybe that's the answer to the obesity epidemic. We'll send all our jumbo sizes to the UK. Seriously though, I had a friend who was obese and saw a holistic doctor who told her to pick one meal she really liked a lot, then eat only that meal every night for supper. Said if she ate the same meal every night she'd lose weight cause she'd get sick of it and not even be interested in eating after a while. But I have to agree, the size servings we get on a plate of food here is obscene. And the further south you get, the bigger the servings. It's part of the southern hospitality. We don't like to send anyone away from the table hungry.
Chris, I read that the osteoporosis brought about by bulemia is irreversible. Is that true?
Bezoar
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The osteoporosis issue would interest me enormously if anyone has any info. Is it possible to increase bone density in young women? I am told that there is some treatment for post menopausal women but not for pre-menopausal. Are there specific dangers to women who have low bone density in relation to having children? Sorry, I only ever seem to have questions.
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Bezoar - funny, but where did McD and BK come from originally ?
In relation to metabolic bone diseases, you are right, osteoporosis is for keeps. The bone literally loses its composition across the board. What remains is normal, there is just less of it. This is in contrast to osteomalacia where the bone just becomes demineralised (low in calcium) because of low vitamin D and calcium intake, or lack of exposure to the sun (hence lots of Asian Women who cover themselves up entirely and eat a diet rich in phytates (which bind calcium) end up with ostepmalacia.) Osteomalacia is reversible with adequate calcium supplementation. Osteoporosis isn't. Osteoporosis is usually manifest post-menopausally as oestrogen levels fall.
You can offset the effects of osteoporosis by behavioural or medical means, depending upon the severity. Taking regular load-bearing exercise helps to preserve bone mass, and taking calcium supplements will slow the bone loss. Smoking is an incredibly powerful trigger for developing osteoporosis and should be avoided at all costs. Alcohol can also thin bones, as can steroids (glucocorticoids). Anyone with a family history, a history of early menopause or ovarian failure should be aware that they are at increased risk and may warrant a bone density scan.
There are drugs that can arrest the progression of osteoporosis including hormones, calcium and vitamin D supplements, and bisphosphonates - powerful agents that block the process of bone resorption.
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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Chris,
I've been diagnosed as slightly osteopenic and my doctor told me that I cannot rebuild the lost bone mass. However, I believe that there is a remedy for everything; we just have to find it. I'm taking supplements that I think will return bone mass to normal. We'll see after the next scan.
Budge,
I am offended by your comments. The people in this forum volunteer their time and energy to help others and you showed a decided lack of respect by presenting an essay to wade through, rather than taking the time to organize your information, and throwing a tantrum when you didn't get an immediate response. You are not paying anyone here, and have no right to make demands.
If fat jokes bother you, don't take them personally. I'm blonde, but still laugh at blonde jokes.
The lack of self control you have demonstrated in the forum leads me to believe that you lack self control in other areas of your life - like your eating habits. As a personal care aide I looked after a number of obese people, and while the fridge was full of celery and carrots, I found candy wrappers and donut boxes under the beds and dressers. I agree that you need to be monitored to get a clear picture of your dietary habits, which you may honestly not be aware of.
Your attitude is caustic, and that's going to affect you far more than it will affect anyone else. If you really want to improve your life, change your attitude first. "If you want to see a woman's thoughts of yesterday, look at her life today; if you want to see her future, look at her thoughts today." The quote isn't exact, and I can't remember who said it, but the message is there. You are in the driver's seat for your life, and you can idle years away or you can put it in gear. It all starts with using another part of your head before you use your mouth.
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A blonde tried to sell her old car. She was having a lot of problems selling it, because the car had 250,000 miles on it. One day, she told her problem to a brunette she worked with at a salon. The brunette told her, "There is a possibility to make the car easier to sell, but it's not legal." "That doesn't matter," replied the blonde, "if I only can sell the car." "Okay," said the brunette. "Here is the address of a friend of mine. He owns a car repair shop. Tell him I sent you and he will turn the counter in your car back to 50,000 miles. Then it should not be a problem to sell your car anymore."
The following weekend, the blonde made the trip to the mechanic. About one month after that, the brunette asked the blonde, "Did you sell your car?" "No," replied the blonde, "why should I? It only has 50,000 miles on it."
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This stream is gettin' too serious..
A man was sitting at a bar enjoying an after-work cocktail when an exceptionally gorgeous & sexy young woman entered. She was so striking that the man could not take his eyes away from her. The young woman noticed his overly-attentive stare and walked directly toward him.
Before he could offer his apologies for being so rude, the young woman said to him, "I'll do anything, absolutely anything, that you want me to do, no matter how kinky, for $100 on one condition...." Flabbergasted, the man asked what the condition was. The young woman replied, "You have to tell me what you want me to do in just three words."
The man considered her proposition for a moment, withdrew his wallet from his pocket and slowly counted out five $20 bills, which he pressed into the young woman's hand. He looked deeply into her eyes & slowly, meaningfully said, "Paint my house..."
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I thought that Fosamax (alendronate) actually rebuilt bone mass.
And of course BK and MickeyD's originated here. I didn't say it was healthy -- just that it tastes good.
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Bezoar, funny you should mention that. I recently spoke with a woman who said that Fosomax had rebuilt her bone mass. What's the scoop on that Chris?
Roberth, my car has 230,000 km on it; do you have that mechanic's address? Also do you know what I can use to get paint off my hands?
Anyone know how to tell a blonde man from a blonde woman?
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I'm glad your not my GP. I'm having problems at the moment and all my GP want's to put them down to is my weight, but what if my problem was causing my weight.
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Not sure which of us you were talking to retry, but welcome to the forum anyway.
I agree that you health could be influencing your weight - that's common. Depressed people don't eat properly and their weight can go up or down accordingly, they also don't tend to go out much or take much exercise which also promotes weight gain. The same can be argued for people in chronic pain. There are a few conditions endocrine conditions that cause chronic weight gain but they are a drop in the ocean compared with the most common cause - excessive intake and too little physical activity.
More often than not weight change is a symptom of behaviour rather than a disease.
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx