Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Titanscape on 03/03/2009 13:41:43
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How may of you guys are patriotic?
Looking at the idea of "pater", or "father". I sometimes feel my father and patriots fathers are dorkey. But having fathers in common, and way back, the same maybe five tribes of 450 fathers in each, and way before that a handful. Followed by years of developing language and culture, defending each other and national interests, church, intermarriages choosing among ourselves, keeping out invaders and accepting only some travelers... this all leads to a feeling of love and also some respect, kind of for flesh, blood, appearance and ways.
I am half Hungarian, and as I met my grand father, even on the day he died, after two or three visits and meeting Hungarian nurses, both ordinary and pretty, and seeing old magyars, and seeing the maps and tourist photos, I came to love Hungarianness, and particularly it focused on a few girls. I really loved a fencer girl, she attracted my liking. And I made pen friends, and became acquainted with some guys from Hungary, attended the Hungarian fellowship...
The numbers of girls in the slave trade, really hurt me at that time.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=1437.0
I posted about it here, and Nomi in Israel was considered favourable, for her work in courts for slaves rights.
Some things over time I could not endure, and wickedness in Hungary dampened me somewhat, but I still respect Hungarianness and want to recover passion.
St Paul was patriotic, they have the twelve patriarchs after Abraham. Some people confuse patriotism with racism and hate.
I was wondering if any of you guys are patriotic? Have a love of people with common fathers?
Done anything from it? Benefited? Found a spouse? Suffered? Recovered?
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I think it is generally a bad thing today. Patriotism is attractive because humans have an urge to be part of "the tribe". It is a primitive instinct that is deep rooted in the psyche and is indeed associated with racism: at least patriotism and racism share the same root instinct. Patriotism leads to viewing your own nation with rose tinted spectacles and treating others with less credit than they deserve. We have seen good examples on this site recently in several other posts. Patriotism is generally not a rational feeling and it can overwhelm reason. As a scientist I am not in favour and although I will sometimes feel pride or patriotism, I make a conscious effort to not be so. I have not contributed to my anscestors' successes nor been responsible for their failures or committed sins. In addition I have the right to disagree with the decisions of my government, and frequently do, but have to accept the consequences and collective responsibility that comes with being in a democracy.
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No, I'm not patriotic. I am an Earthling. Countries are arbitrary delineations mainly brought about by war or invasion. We should concentrate more on the similarites between people, not differences.
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Love of people, not hate, favour. Extendable from one lot to others in need such as Polish girls in the slave trade... And Russians even though, the Russians did terrible things in Hungary and East Germany.
Yes, Russia can make one angry.
Not nations, lineages, not land, people, they can be wiped out, and the land bears the same name, and the new people.
But in a city somewhere, everyone is your 4th to 10th cousin kind of thing, we have things in common. The same lineage, not nationality.
Difference, the exotic can be attractive too. It is up to you. Some marry out, some stay withing their Italian or Greek... heritage.
If I married, I move back into magyars. My mum is a mix of seven races.
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We are all mixed heritage otherwise we would be clones. The different mixes of people in the world is what makes life so interesting. We all have common grown though and that is always the place to start. My son recently met an Iranian family on holiday. He was very wary of them because of all the negative media he sees about the country. Then he discovered that the man was a 6th Dan in Tae kwondo. Fred is a red belt. They spent the next hour doing Tae Kwondo moves together and having a great time. Beaver is right. Look for the similarities and the world will be in peace.
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I am not patriotic. Patriotism, to me, puts the cart before the horse.
On one hand we have the 'country' and on the other, the people. The 'country' though is an abstract concept and has no existence beyond what people attribute to it, so the idea that people should put their country before themselves just seems daft. However, appealing to the people's sense of patriotism, to put their country before themselves, is a great way for a few people to manipulate and exploit the many.
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Having pride in your country is something that can bind people together, and that can be a good thing. You'd expect it to result in a greater sense of community, and all the benefits of altruisim that brings. However, there's not much of that around at the moment. I think its more of something to draw people together, rather than actual 'patriotism' to the country itself.
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I would rather draw all people together than deliberately make a point of selecting some and excluding others. I am glad to see so many think this way, at least so far. We should strive to share our common humanity as DB said, and not be narrow minded.
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I find the idea of differences meaning problems doesn't happen with me, as you know, I am a mix of races, at the late age of 34, I became patriotic. I didn't notice being against people who were different. Not at all!
For a lot of people, for family reasons and cultural similarity, they marry into their own stock, it works better for some. In Australia there are lot's of Greeks, Italians, Irish... and a lot of mixing.
I am not sure about the UK.
Paul the Apostle, was a great missionary to the gentiles, Greeks... yet he loved his patriots, and said he would even go to Hell if it would save them. It was love love. No hate.
This is in strong contrast to the Nazis, whose patriotism degraded, into a loveless camaraderie and hate for non Germans. They thought they were superior. I would say it was no longer worthy of being called patriotism.
I defend love, any fine love is a constructive thing, "love does no harm". Paul the Apostle.
I could find the smartest girl in the world, in India or China, and admire her and want to talk to her, but would rather marry and average sweet Hungarian lady.
I mean there is value in finding differences to explore, and similarities.
I watched a documentary in which a scientist showed high school student that they had important factors of DNA in common with each other, not because of common origin, surprising one Ukrainian guy, that he had DNA in common with an African student, I think it was.
In an Indian lady, I would probably ask about her spirituality, concept of benevolence and business ventures. But mixing with Indian people all the time, Indian food, hearing a lot of Hindi... would not be ideal for me. My mum is from India, I am used to it somewhat, Indian food, Indian parties... I get on with them. But probably I'd best be happy in Aussie circles and I like Hungarians. They become somewhat integrated. A bit of both.
I grew up mixed, not attached to one or the other, and have developed tastes in so, I like Italian food, Indian, Chinese, Aussie, Lebanese...
In church we do not discriminate, but at parties, we pick who we like. For me that meant intellectuals, I like them. My old friends are Greek, Chinese, Anglo-Indian, Lithuanian, Aussie, three are same culture marriage, my old Aussie friend is in a second marriage to a Japanese lady. First marriage was a same culture marriages. He is a professor in Japan and so it works for him, he is really integrated.
My Lithuanian friend is marrying an Aussie nurse, he is a Dr.
From primary school, two old friends both Lebanese Doctors, married out, one to a Spanish lady.
I could do that. It matters about what works and what appeals to me. Patriotism is nice, but kindness matters more. But I'd like to have both.
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We should strive to share our common humanity as DB said, and not be narrow minded.
I particularly liked the sharing of our common humanity that took place in Pakistan yesterday very comforting.When someone is standing in front of you with an AK47 under his arm I don't think he is there to share his common humanity.
Cheers
justaskin
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I am a humanist and internationalist (part of being in the Red Cross) - I feel attached to Australia (my home country), Japan (my resident country) and Scotland (my heritage). But my heart is in many places, such as in Tanzania where I sponsor a child (and have done so for 10 years), in Malaysia, where I love the mix of history and so on...
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Damo - I too have connections to Tanzania. When I lived in Uganda I spent a lot of time in Tanzania. The people there are wonderful. Well done to you for sponsoring a child.
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Thank you, DB. My sponsored child lives very close to the Ugandan and Rwandan borders. One day, I am planning going over there one day.
I have been a volunteer since I was a young teen in one capacity or another (Red Cross, Salvation Army, volunteer firefighter, UNHCR, WorldVision etc) - and developed my Internationalist and humanist views.
I would willingly give my all to help anyone of any religion, culture etc - as far as I am concrned, we are all human
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I had an estate near the Uganda/Rwanda/Tanzania border in a town called Mbarara.
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Does Mbarara translate. It sounds fun.
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It means "That damned white woman is being very silly again"
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I had an estate near the Uganda/Rwanda/Tanzania border in a town called Mbarara.
That is quite close to Kishanda where my sponsored child lives.
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Are you sure you don't mean Kahenda?
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nope - Kishanda, Kishanda Area Development Progam (http://wvt.or.tz/KishandaADP.htm) to be precise
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OK. Just that I don't know it.
EDIT: Ah, I've heard of Buganguzi, and Kabirizi
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Does Mbarara translate. It sounds fun.
Don't call me silly it does translate
"The name 'Mbarara' has its roots in the English Colonialist's mipronunciation of the word 'Mburara'a certain type of grass; a favourite for the cows."
Sheepy might like some special grass too.
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If you say so. [::)]
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Back to semantics, "Patriot":
...L. patria, one's native country, < pater, father.] A person who loves his country, and zealously supports and defends it and it's interests.
Webster's Dictionary.
I think it is an error to describe it as deliberately choosing only to favour people with things in common. It can be a natural love.
It can come from honouring your parents and grandparents.
And sometimes you cannot simply choose to love other people's children with the same love you have for your own. Even if you try.
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I love my country.
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Me too. [:)]
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I want to. Lets just say I still prefer it to others.
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Patriotism is interesting as in the USA they are patriots, yet are literally the most mixed melting pot of races on Earth.
So some suggest Christian love and good will by looking for the similarities or philanthropy by this, or by suppressing one kind of love for another, rather than having both or developing love from family outwards?