Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => That CAN'T be true! => Topic started by: Fossil on 17/05/2004 02:11:47
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I have read that the memory span of a gold fish is three seconds. How do the test for that?
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I mean how do THEY test for that. duh.
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Sorry...what was your question again ?.....[:D]
Yes, I've also heard the same thing though.
It would also be intresting to find out not just how they have been tested for that but WHY do they only have a three second memory span[?]
In fact does memory retention differ far and wide across the animal kingdom ?
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I guess my question is how do they test a gold fish for their memory. Memory is different than imprinting. How can it be quantified in a fish? They must have to know something first and then tested to see how long they remember it? When I read it I though what a great piece of trivia, but pondered further I just wondered how do they know?
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I don't know how they would test for that, but I've had numerous golfish and they all remembered what the can of fish food meant, and I only fed them once a day.
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Maybe they are looking at the amount of neurons in a fish brain, and making a wild guess.
wOw the world spins?
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I'm not sure that's true. I have fish now, although admittedly not goldfish, but they know to come to the top of the tank and eat when I tap the glass.
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you can make reasonable estimates at learning/emeory/etc in animals they aren't 100% precise. I'm not sure how they would test memory in goldfish exactly, but think of the age old stereo typical mouse in a maze test.
That's no moon.... its a GRAPEFRUIT!!!!
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I asked fish-behaviour expert Jens Krause, from Leeds University, this very question... about fish rapidly forgetting things... during an interview 2 years ago.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/html/shows/2002.06.09.htm
chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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Do they remember what the food means when they see the can or when the food hits the top of the water. When it is in the water then I think it becomes instinct as opposed to memory.
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quote:
Originally posted by Broca
Do they remember what the food means when they see the can or when the food hits the top of the water. When it is in the water then I think it becomes instinct as opposed to memory.
I just popped into my local aquarium and asked some gold fish....no answer I'm afraid...perhaps by the time I finished asking them they had forgotten the question [:D].... but seriously, I would have thought to eat is just another rudimentary basic insinct that all living creatures have to have to enable survival, so when they see the food, some instinct tells them, plus, perhaps they can smell it too ?....It would be fascinating to know if they do recognise the can of food though.....almost makes you wonder if they can be trained....for what though...I wouldn't know...but then my intelligence span is about three seconds long as well[:D]
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quote:
Originally posted by Broca
Do they remember what the food means when they see the can or when the food hits the top of the water. When it is in the water then I think it becomes instinct as opposed to memory.
It was the can that they recognized. My son's cat recognized the pop of the fish food can opening and would do a flying leap onto the table and dig his paw into the can and help himself. Catfish I guess.
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My cat had the same reaction....could hear the sound of the can opener opening his can a mile away (sorry 1.6km)!!...well..I never really measured it but you get the idea.....
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This is anecdotal, I know...but I do believe golds can develop some medium-term memory based on my experience with our pond.
When they "hear" the screen door slam, they immediate swim to the side where they usually are fed and present their open mouths. The reason I say "medium-term" memory is that they seem to loose the connection between the door slam and food over the winter.
When it's time to start feeding again in April, they rarely present themselves. By May, it's getting better. By June, it's automatic.
This cycle has repeated itself for 5 years.
For what it's worth....
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Pavlovian in nature? Welcome zgeist!
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My goldfish came to the left side of the surface at five o clock every day, because he knew he would be fed. Surely goldfish can't have memories of five seconds.
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Isn't there a difference between "memory" and "conditioning"? It seems that memory would be more like "I've been here before and know how to get to there" while conditioning would be more like "the can is here, my hunger reflex is triggered". Or something like that.
----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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Thats actually really interesting, like we can create an artificial instinct for the fish.
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These fish see the red bag and come to the top. I can just put the bag by the tank, or knock on the glass and they know to come to the top.
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Goldfish have a lot longer memory than 5 seconds. My goldfish will come to the front of the aquarium when they see me near by, they won't do this for anyone else, they'll also do this when I get back from a week away. Also someone said about fish not coming to the side with mouths open in the winter and related this to memory. The cold weather causes goldfish to lower their metabolism and go into an almost hybernation period. Food is scare in the winter, so goldfish become very inactive to conserve energy, so I wouldn't relate that to memory.
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Fish also seem to remember your behaviour when you go to feed them, as in they see the container and move towards the surface to feed...
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as soon as my 3 goldfish see me sit infront of the fish tank and reach for the food container they all come to the surface and start flipping out, i doubt that has to do with instinct at all unless their brains are so under developed we can turn certain things into a sort of semi-instinct instead of memory, maybe the way that goldfish were bred by the chinese somehow makes there instincts change instead of remembering things?
"Do or do not, there is no try" ~Yoda
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If I got home late, after five o clock, the goldfish would still be swimming near the top when I came to look at them, but when I got home normally at 4.30 they would just be swimming around normally.
Can't you do maze tests with goldfish like you do for mice?
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"You've got the memory of a goldfish" - Sorry, it's no longer the insult it used to be !
Indeed, recent work on fish learning and behaviour has refuted the long standing myth that goldfish are intellectually destitute. Far from being like Dory in "Finding Nemo" (who was condemned to a life of rediscovering the delights of the surroundings every few seconds) fish actually have extremely good memories.
In a recent series of experiments, Edinburgh University fish researcher Culum Brown (Animal Cognition 4 pp109) showed that Australian freshwater rainbowfish could rapidly be trained to locate an escape-hole in a fishing net as it was advanced towards them. The fish were then not tested again until 11 months later - at which point they could still remember how to perform the task as effectively as they had in the past - despite not having seen the apparatus in the meantime.
This is clear evidence that fish have a well developed capacity for learning and recall of information up to a considerable time later.
The 'three second memory' myth should therefore be laid firmly to rest !
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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my fish remember a heron or something from 2 days ago - they are sooo spooked out.
They are normally mad over-eaters!!
my kingdom for a fish...
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I read a story to a salmon fillet in my fridge last night (it was quite chilly)...when I read it again just now, it showed no sign of remembering it !
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my fish remember...normally very tame and would surface for food day or night, now completely spooked out by something - a heron I suspect (was relieved of about 20 fish 2 years ago (before the net!)
I suspect they only remember what they need for survival(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Funclefibs.users.btopenworld.com%2FFibsPics%2Fphotos%2Fphoto_10.html&hash=7d28469445ffd3cf292ab6fb04dfc5e0)[:D]
my kingdom for a fish...
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*listens to chris' interview of Krause* Holy crap, robotic goldfish! It's a Red Dwarf episode come to life! Seriously... who here remembers 'Future Echoes'?
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RED DWARF !!..fantastic...got them on DVD..Future echoes ...excellent !! (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.aol.com%2FCyberBob79%2Freddwarf%2Fgraphics%2Frd_viii.gif&hash=584f830e4516cc9f03a8a9f6cbb5a0f2)
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Ah, but can you remember the name of those robot goldfish? Without looking it up? No cheating now!
Highlight after this to find out answer: Lennon & Macartney
I think that people are justifying to themselves about keeping goldfish in a small boring tank when they say that they (goldfish) only have a very short memory.
Sara
Is all we see or seem, just a dream within a dream?
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I gotta agree with Chris, and I can not quite believe that this knowledge actually makes it out of my head, but when I was at Berlin Free University, I had to do a practical called "wavelength discrimination in goldfish" (don't ask). And yes, they do have quite a good memory, and they even distinguish colours, and we found out because we couldn't do the testing (with a specifically built apparatus for the goldfish, for an operant conditioning type experiment - somebody should really look at the distribution of research funds) because the memory of the goldfish is too good, and they remembered what they had to do from the previous semester. So there! :)
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The real question should be, who actually takes the time to test a fish's memory span -- this is one of the silliest topics I've ever heard.
Tabatha
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Lennon and McCartney.
"My toof, my toof, I fink I broke my toof!"
My comets recognise me and always come to play when I go near the tank. I have a deliberately sporadic feeding pattern but that does not seem to bother them. I thought fish were stupid until I inherrited these two. They are actually smarter than the cat...but that's not hard.
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Do you ever pretend to feed them, just to see what they do ?
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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I'd never tease anyone or anything with food. Didn't you ever see the rolo add?
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No, what happens ?
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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Rolo choc caramel sweets. A young boy teases en elephant at a zoo with his pack of rolos. Many years later he returns and the elephant gets his revenge.
Vague, I know. Sorry about that.
As for the fish, I suppose that would be one way to test the memory span[;)]
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http://www.allowe.com/Humor/video.htm
Check this site out you might find your elephant story on it. :-)
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Why thank you, Broca, that is exactly the advert I was referring to.
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I used to go fishing and they seemed to learn very quickly not to take my bait.
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I'm currently doing a uni assignment on fish memories, and all of the information I have found suggests that they do have very good memories and are capable of learning. A scientist called Ava Chase even taught her carp to distinguish between classical music and the blues!![:0]
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1179348.htm Thats a link to an article which mentions Ava Chase and Culum Browns research, and also talks about fish recognising their owners. I'm convinced. The problem that I have is for my assignment I have to give evidence for both sodes of the argument and, unbelievable as it may seem, I cannot find a single scientist or piece of scientific writing that mentions fish having a short memory. The 3-second thing is a myth... but where did it come from?!?! All I can find is loads of evidence pointing in the other direction.
[?]Does anyone know of any books or internet sites or articles that argue that fish have a 3 second memory? [?]
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Maybe you're just an idiot (Tabatha), ever consider that? All topics have a purpose, a curiousity, without someone's interest, you'd never have anything you surround yourself with daily. Technology is amazing, but it is all a creation of the human mind- learn to appreciate. That goldfish may have nothing to do with anything you ever do in life, but then again, someone could strike a discovery that saves your life one day. Besides, if you're not interested, why are you responding?
quote:
Originally posted by TabathaJo
The real question should be, who actually takes the time to test a fish's memory span -- this is one of the silliest topics I've ever heard.
Tabatha
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blooobbble bloooble glug blooble, anyone seen my tank? blooble blooooble glug