# Naked Science Forum

## On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: nilak on 04/04/2017 20:03:55

Title: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: nilak on 04/04/2017 20:03:55
We know clocks slow down their tick rate if their velocity increases relative to an observer, but what happens to particles? Also, muons seem to decay slower. It is considered that they don't have an internal structure that evolves with time but it doesn't mean they don't have an internal structure. For example they could cycle through random states until a decay state occurs, with the probability for a decay state being constant throughout their lifespan.
If we go down at the particle level SR doesn't quite make sense anymore. I've seen answers that say that for an object, like a clock or a lifeform all internal processes slow down, but for a particle what slows down. I don't think you can say something slows down from a SR perspective. If their internal causality slows down then the c constant has no meaning.

My concept can explain how internal causality is preserved as c, but internal processes of  matter can modify. If we look at OAM light beams, they have a helical structure that enables them to travel slower or faster but never exceeding c, just like matter does. They can also be at rest relative to observers, because if the wavefront is slower than c, then, in principle, you could reach that speed. In this case there is obviously no time dilation, but the wavestructure vary with speed.
Title: Re: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: jeffreyH on 04/04/2017 20:15:08
Time dilation is an effect and not a cause. As such it cannot affect anything.
Title: Re: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: nilak on 04/04/2017 20:56:26
Time dilation is an effect and not a cause. As such it cannot affect anything.
If a clock frequency decreases, if it begins to move relative to an observer, what you are saying is the cause is not time dilation but relative velocity. In that case we can define time not by what a clock measures (because it is affected by velocity) but as a constant rate that exists only in principle.
Anyway, physicist believe muons are affected by time dilation and that is why their lifetime gets longer if they travel faster.
Title: Re: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: jeffreyH on 04/04/2017 20:59:20
Muons are affected by a) velocity and b) the gravitational field. Both of these produce the effect of time dilation.
Title: Re: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: PhysBang on 04/04/2017 21:44:09
We know clocks slow down their tick rate if their velocity increases relative to an observer, but what happens to particles? Also, muons seem to decay slower.  It is considered that they don't have an internal structure that evolves with time but it doesn't mean they don't have an internal structure. For example they could cycle through random states until a decay state occurs, with the probability for a decay state being constant throughout their lifespan.
If we go down at the particle level SR doesn't quite make sense anymore. I've seen answers that say that for an object, like a clock or a lifeform all internal processes slow down, but for a particle what slows down. I don't think you can say something slows down from a SR perspective. If their internal causality slows down then the c constant has no meaning.
SR doesn't say that the internal processes slow down, it says that calculating the time is dependant on our choice of spatial coordinates. So if we are to consider the time that passed between when a muon was at one point in space and when it was in another, we then have to consider what the time is between those two points. For a reference frame co-moving with the muon, the time is very short. For a reference frame co-moving with the Earth (using the standard cosmic ray example), the time is somewhat longer.

The speed of light is only involved here because we know that it is the same in all reference frames and thus it serves as a means to objectively translate from one to another.
Title: Re: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: nilak on 04/04/2017 21:46:51
Muons are affected by a) velocity and b) the gravitational field. Both of these produce the effect of time dilation.
That is what my concept says. Matter is affected by velocity and by moving between two points of different gravitational potential. The difference is I say clocks rates are affected but not time (because I have defined time flow as constant, even if we can't measure it) and SR says time flow changes, because time is defined as what clocks measure. Even though it sounds like the same thing, it is not.
Title: Re: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: GoC on 05/04/2017 12:03:12
Time from clocks measure the reaction availability of c. In the Muons frame the reaction available time is reduced
Title: Re: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: jeffreyH on 05/04/2017 12:48:45
An absolute time requires an absolute frame of reference. Relativity is not compatible with such a notion. Since relativity has been verified experimentally in numerous was then you would be better off adjusting your views.
Title: Re: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: GoC on 05/04/2017 15:25:25
An absolute time requires an absolute frame of reference. Relativity is not compatible with such a notion. Since relativity has been verified experimentally in numerous was then you would be better off adjusting your views.

Time = Motion = Energy c

JefferyH

You must be young not understanding the subtle differences in wording that probably Alan or Colin2B would. Let's look at reaction times in a form you might understand better. Say we have Na and Cl in water. Let's say we can pour them together at c. Impossible I know but just for demonstration purposes. The electron orbit (what ever you consider that to be) would stop using all of the speed as kinetic with no orbit no reaction. Total c as speed (a fixed time frame mass is never able to reach). So the closer to c the more kinetic and less fundamental orbit motion.

Quote
An absolute time requires an absolute frame of reference. Relativity is not compatible with such a notion.

Yours is a straw man argument. If you let others think for you without understanding the boundaries progress will stop.
Title: Re: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: nilak on 05/04/2017 21:21:25
An absolute time requires an absolute frame of reference. Relativity is not compatible with such a notion. Since relativity has been verified experimentally in numerous was then you would be better off adjusting your views.
Ok, perhaps my concept is wrong, but I still don't understand what happens to matter. Velocity affects clocks and by definition time, it affects particles like muons, but what happens to them? You simply take it as is?

If we look at the clock, its frequency is reduced from the observer's perspective. If the physical processes inside the clock are slowed down, the same thing happens. But if we look at a particle, there must be something that changes as well. The deBroglie wavelength reduces for example (from the observer perspective).
Title: Re: How does time dilation affect matter?
Post by: Alex Dullius Siqueira on 06/04/2017 01:22:38
Time dilation is an effect and not a cause. As such it cannot affect anything.

But if the objective is to "affect matter", time dilatation being cause or effect is sort of irrelevant as a mater.
A cause can affect a third parties as much as an effect, as long the cause or the effect are not occurring in function of matter.
As it is I not sure what's the correct answer except to consider "interaction" in between distinct time dilatation to create a unbalanced constant.
So my best guess, time dilatation of object A can only affect time dilatation on object B, but at the same time, on the local frame, A nor B objects can effectively affect their own time dilatation for they are the cause of their own effects.