# Naked Science Forum

## On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: pasala on 23/06/2019 17:49:31

Title: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 23/06/2019 17:49:31
HOW GRAVITY WORKS:
Closed volumes with mass:  All closed volumes such as elementary particles Proton(s), neutron(s) and electron(s) pushes their surroundings and produces convex curvature of spacetime.   Their internal spacetime "pushes" the surrounding spacetime to make room. The density of spacetime around the closed volume increases, and the latter has difficulty to move. As a result, a "mass effect" appears, i.e. an effect having all the characteristics of mass. Since spacetime has properties of elasticity, as per Einstein it exerts a pressure on the surface of closed volumes. The mass component [M] can be extracted from the pressure [M/LT2] by simple mathematical operations. This leads to a 4D expression of the mass: m = f(x,y,z,t)

Open Volumes, massless: It is just a vacuum, but sometimes found in various forms such as the volume of orbitals or the space between atoms. These volumes exist but they are "porous" regarding spacetime. More exactly, they are subject to variations of spacetime but they do not curve spacetime themselves. Therefore, open volumes are massless since no curvature means no mass

If we replace the closed volume by two or more closed volumes, the pressure exerted by spacetime on these volumes tends to bring them closer to each other. The result is equivalent to an attraction. For example, a pressure on one side of a sheet of paper is equivalent to an attraction on the other side. In both cases, the sheet is curved.
Gravitation is not an attractive force between masses, but a pressure force exerted by spacetime on closed volumes that tends to bring them closer to each other.

How Gravity works:
It is true that all elementary particles pushes their surroundings and produces convex curvature.  If we replace two or more closed volumes, pressure against them increases and the same was experimentally proved.

First of all, we have to remember that this experiment was done in a Gravity field only.  Gravity is already influencing each and every particle and Gravity is of “matter blind”.  We are testing Gravity effect on closed volume in a Gravity field.

Suppose if a closed volume has to “curve the spacetime” means its internal energy must come out.  So each and every closed volume must be exited with energy to do so.  Isn’t it appears something extra-ordinary and unbelievable.
Here, we are looking at one side of the coin only.  There is potential energy stored on this Earth.  It is creating pressure/force on all closed volumes.  Excess energy, emitted by the closed volume comes out and pushes the outside energy, which appears as curvature.   “THIS IS THE CURVATURE”.

However it is true that energy is of object oriented.  Since all masses are its objects it start collecting/pooling against it and creates pressure which is known as “mass effect”.  It mainly depends on the availability of energy in the open area.

“Gravity is not an attractive force between masses but pressure force exerted by spacetime”.

Unless there is pooling/concentration of energy against mass gravity is impossible.  Water particles are raising due to radiation and these particles moves so high that it curves the space.  When these particles joins with other particles, due to gravity or geodesics, becomes heavier and creates pressure on the energy and “mass effect” comes out.

Gravity as Curved Spacetime
Einstein eventually identified the property of spacetime which is responsible for gravity as its curvature. Space and time in Einstein's universe are no longer flat (as implicitly assumed by Newton) but can pushed and pulled, stretched and warped by matter. Gravity feels strongest where spacetime is most curved, and it vanishes where spacetime is flat. This is the core of Einstein's theory of general relativity, which is often summed up in words as follows: "matter tells spacetime how to curve, and curved spacetime tells matter how to move". A standard way to illustrate this idea is to place a bowling ball (representing a massive object such as the sun) onto a stretched rubber sheet (representing spacetime). If a marble is placed onto the rubber sheet, it will roll toward the bowling ball, and may even be put into "orbit" around the bowling ball. This occurs, not because the smaller mass is "attracted" by a force emanating from the larger one, but because it is traveling along a surface which has been deformed by the presence of the larger mass. In the same way gravitation in Einstein's theory arises not as a force propagating through spacetime, but rather as a feature of spacetime itself. According to Einstein, your weight on earth is due to the fact that your body is traveling through warped spacetime!

As we have seen, matter does not simply pull on other matter across empty space, as Newton had imagined. Rather matter distorts space-time and it is this distorted space-time that in turn affects other matter. Objects (including planets, like the Earth, for instance) fly freely under their own inertia through warped space-time, following curved paths because this is the shortest possible path (or geodesic) in warped space-time.
This, in a nutshell, then, is the General Theory of Relativity, and its central premise is that the curvature of space-time is directly determined by the distribution of matter and energy contained within it. What complicates things, however, is that the distribution of matter and energy is in turn governed by the curvature of space, leading to a feedback loop and a lot of very complex mathematics. Thus, the presence of mass/energy determines the geometry of space, and the geometry of space determines the motion of mass/energy.

: "matter tells spacetime how to curve, and curved spacetime tells matter how to move". This is the central premise of Einstein’s general theory of relativity.  Actually curvature of spacetime by the closed volume is the base for this.  When a small particle curves the space what about huge masses such as Earth.   “According to Einstein, your weight on earth is due to the fact that your body is traveling through warped spacetime” .

Earth is not rotating against gravity but gravity itself hooked Earth.  Here Earth is moving means it is not Earth alone, things existing on the Earth, gravity field everything in one unit.  Spacetime is warped not due to spinning of Earth.  There is strong potential energy on this Earth and it is due to mass effect, warping things on the Earth. Here comparison to cylindrical carnival ride to Earth is not so correct.  Cylindrical carnival is moving in a gravity field.  As the carnival moves, at the edges gravity weakens and climate warps the edges.

As per Newton,  "it follows that a moving body has no determinate velocity and no definite line in which it moves".
In fact curvature is only against the mass and there are no curved paths. Imagine empty space - in our case, a two-dimensional plane - with no forces acting between the bodies floating around. If there are no forces, then classical mechanics and Einstein's mechanics of special relativity are in agreement: Under these circumstances, bodies move along the straightest possible lines.

In flat, empty space-time, small test panrticles follow straight lines.

Ok, let us imagine that there is 2d space or empty space. Suppose small test particles A and B have started their journey in empty space.  As there is no Gravity or curved space nothing can stop them.  Let us analyse in detail.  Suppose if we detonate an atom bomb, energy is freed.  Nothing can stop movement of energy.  There is no scope for chain reaction. Each atom detonated, electrons, protons, neutrons comes out freely and makes their way.  Here there is no scope for E=MC2.

Here, in 2d space or empty space, light is impossible.  If switch an torch light, it never gives you any light. Potential energy stored within cell comes out, but, since it is empty, light particles moves out freely.

2d Space or empty space exists in between two solar systems only.

Suppose if we enter our solar system, 4d space time, energy and dust particles are present everywhere.  Here matter curves space time.  Here energy is in free  state and effects of gravity are absent. Ok, if we detonate an atom bomb, since there is curvature of space, it explodes, however in a slow motion and that too, as there is no pressure or force, chain reaction slows down, area coverage is limited and of course, sudden eddies into the space time is limited and it covers short radius only.  Here particle A and B cannot move freely as other particles obstruct them.

If we switch on a torch cell, it gives light but within short radius.  Light behaves differently as there is no gravity.  Light is not bent by gravity and therefore we have to arrange them near to us.

Einstein’s 4d spacetime:
This is present near to the huge masses such as Earth. A given configuration of matter distorts space-time geometry (not only because of mass, but also with its energy, inner tensions or pressure) and this distorted geometry makes matter move in certain ways. This movement, in turn, changes the matter configuration, and space-time geometry changes correspondingly. Now that space-time geometry is a bit different, it also acts on matter in a different way, matter moves, geometry changes, and so on in an endless dance.

Raise of particles:
This is the key point in creating Gravity in a 4d space time.  Our predecessors are having a wrong notion that spin of Earth is paving way for this.  We have to keep in mind that Earth is not rotating against gravity, but gravity itself hooked Earth.

Each and every closed volume is undergoing the influence of Gravity, so naturally it comes down to Earth only.  But how particle A and B are raising.  If we observe nature carefully, it is water particles.  Due to radiation water particles are raising and are moving against Gravity.  It is paving way for storage of potential energy on this Earth. If the energy start pooling or concentrating at a particular place, water evaporates and start moving into the space.  If the pressure or force increases water particles and other dust particles moves to new height and it appears that space time is curved.  Meanwhile it is paving way for further accumulation of potential energy. Particles raising from Earth at different places joins with each other and becomes heavier and accelerates downwards.  In this way it warps space time of Earth, which is known as Gravity.

E = mc2 Enigma
E = mc2 is a part of Special Relativity. However, despite the fact that the calculus is quite simple, Modern Physics does not propose a rational explanation of this strange phenomenon.
The Spacetime Model demonstrates that the principle of converting mass to energy is very simple. This principle is shown by the following example.
•   Part A
An empty sphere is immerged in a container filled with water. The surface of water is quiet.
•   Part B
If the sphere disappears suddenly by a thought experiment, the depression will make eddies which have energy (E = hν). Converting a mass to energy follows the same principle. A closed volume disappears, and is transformed into an open volume. This produces "eddies" in spacetime, which are gamma rays. These gamma rays may be converted into particles such as electrons-positrons pairs, and so on.

There is Gravity and it is influencing each and every closed volume. Raising of particles have helped in creating potential energy stored on Earth.  Due to pressure/force exerted by this potential energy, each and every closed volume is curving the space time.

If we say that closed volumes are curving space time by its internal energy, it is rather irrelevant.  If we detonate an atom, energy already present in the space time, potential energy, which created  “inward thrust” and it tries to occupy the gap.  Now energy freed from the atom, creates “outward thrust”.  This action increases radiation within short distance and paves way for chain reaction. Total process is completed within short time.  Initially an “inward thrust” is created and later “outward thrust”   creates eddies in the space time.

Total energy released by an atom bomb mainly depends on:
01  Internal energy
02  Gravity in a particular  place.
Suppose if we detonate the same atom bomb on Moon:
01  Internal energy is same.
02  Gravity is just 1/6th only

Since gravity is weak, curvature of space time by the closed volume is also weak. “eddies” into space time slows down and it spreads up to limited area only.

Suppose if the same atomic bomb is detonated in space, outside Earth’s climate: Here there is sufficient energy but it is not present with any force i.e., free state and thus even though there is inward as well outward thrust explosion is limited.

How Solar system is working:
Big bang is the base for any solar system.  When two huge masses faced each other devastating fire started.  It resulted in release of huge energy into open area.    It is not only Sun but other planets also burnt for lot of period and pumped huge energy.  At present Sun is only maintaining this energy base.  It is true that energy is of ‘object oriented’.

This energy base is present in the form of rings, like onion rings.  We can compare this to rainbow.  Since our Solar system is moving to unknown place, energy is moving along these rings.

Ok, suppose an asteroid from 2d space or empty entered our solar system.   Energy curves the space time around the asteroid.  It all depends on the acceleration or speed with which the asteroid is travelling.  Suppose if the mass of the asteroid consists of light atoms than it yields to the energy and start moving along with other planets.

In case, if the asteroid crosses 1st one and enters next one, the 2nd one possess more energy than the 1st one.  So naturally curvature around the asteroid increases and creates more pressure.  If it yields than naturally it remains within that circle.

Moon is also one such asteroid only.  When it entered after crossing mostly 6 lanes, curvature increased and it simply yielded.  Moon is having its own Gravity field, so it started spinning against its axis.  Any asteroid that enters, initially yields to energy pressure and lose weight and will be thrown to inertial position.

When Moon entered gravity field of Earth, both tug on each other, in fact both are in inertial position.  Energy within the lane is moving, it created pressure/force on the curvature and both started rotating against each other and also moved along the lane.  In case for any reason if the moon crosses this lane, it becomes independent planet, unless other planet influences it.

In this universe each solar system is independent unit.

Rotation and revolution of planet:
Suppose we have sent a rocket into space.  There is potential energy stored in the space.  It start concentrating against rocket and curves the spacetime around the rocket and  throws it into inertial position.  Now rocket is in free state.   There is curvature of spacetime but there is no Gravity.  This curvature now start interacting with Gravity from Earth and Sun.  Strong energy waves coming from Sun pushes it and it start rotating against Earth Gravity waves.
In the case of planets it is different and there is Gravity.  Gravity waves will be moving out to far reaching places.  Energy rays coming from Sun interacts with these Gravity waves of planet, bents and enters planets atmosphere.  Meanwhile a movementum is gained and it starts rotating against its axis.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 07/07/2019 18:25:13
Friends,

It is true that science developed a lot.  We know several things and we are able to carry out research in space and we are sending rockets to other planets.

I think there is every need to revise the present existing theories.  I don't think it is so good, going by ants perception,  trampoline  analogy.  Ok, they may be correct, let us discuss to have "What exactly is gravity".

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 08/07/2019 03:04:27
Total energy released by an atom bomb mainly depends on:
01  Internal energy
02  Gravity in a particular  place.
Suppose if we detonate the same atom bomb on Moon:
01  Internal energy is same.
02  Gravity is just 1/6th only

Since gravity is weak, curvature of space time by the closed volume is also weak. “eddies” into space time slows down and it spreads up to limited area only.

Suppose if the same atomic bomb is detonated in space, outside Earth’s climate: Here there is sufficient energy but it is not present with any force i.e., free state and thus even though there is inward as well outward thrust explosion is limited.

We've been over this in a previous thread. Gravity has nothing to do with how powerful a nuclear reaction is.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 13/07/2019 16:03:07
Mr Kryptid
Newton viewed space as absolute.  To prove this he has taken water in a bucket tied it with thread and spin it with maximum speed and water started raising against the walls of the bucket.  He thought that this is the way space is formed.

It is true that Newton has carried out this experiment in a strong Gravity field only and it is influencing his bucket, water therein.  When he spin it, due to acceleration water relaxed from Gravity and started raising against walls.
Can we take this experiment for the formation of space.  It is true that Earth is not spinning against Gravity but Gravity itself hooked Earth and making it to move.  Suppose if the Earth rotates against Gravity, water may raise but what about nature?.

It is true that any theory mainly depends on the Science progress as on that date.  This incident happened in 17th Century and therefore it was right as on that date since there were no space shuttles and no rockets were sent into the space.

Ok let us imagine that Earth is in inertial position.  As per Newton’s first law of motion, any object remains in inertial position unless a force or pressure is acted upon it.  Here Earth cannot move by itself, unless there is a force.  So, Gravity is the force which is making Earth to spin on its axis.

At the dawn of 20th century particle physics played key role.  Each elementary particle curves the space time.  Energy level of particle surprised scientists.  Einstein realized that when an elementary particles curves the space time what about huge mass such as Earth.

“Gravity is not an attractive force between masses but pressure force exerted by spacetime”.

Ok, if we move to 2d space time, which is empty and elementary particle never curves the space time.  Here there is no Gravity at all.  All particles move from one place to other place with maximum speed.  Particle A and B never meet each other unless they enter 4d space time.

Suppose if the elementary particle exhibits same energy level at all places there must be curvature even in 2d space time.  Irrelevant to space time 2d or 4d atom, must explode similar way.  In a 2d space time, there is no outside pressure of energy,  so elementary particle such as electrons behaves differently.

Any explosion mainly depends on the pressure or force exerted by space time.  Elementary particle released from the atom must meet its counterpart, which is possible in a gravity field only.  More particles in the open area means more explosion.  “Eddies” also mainly depends on the pressure/force exerted by space time.

If we explode one ton atomic bomb:

Its internal energy is far limited.  If the same is in 2d space, elementary particles comes out but they can not meet its counterpart as there is no gravity and moves out.

But in a 4d space time such as Earth, due to Gravity they can meet other counter part and it paves the way for chain reaction.  “Eddies” in the space time mainly depends on the pressure or force with which space time is present.
In a empty space time, there are no particles in the open area and thus no explosion at all.

Ok, how far it is correct to rely on “thought experiment”.

Friends, it is not criticizing Newton or Einstein.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 13/07/2019 21:57:56
Newton viewed space as absolute.

He was wrong.

Gravity is the force which is making Earth to spin on its axis.

No it isn't. The fact that the matter that the Earth formed from was moving, combined with conservation of momentum, is what makes the Earth spin.

Any explosion mainly depends on the pressure or force exerted by space time.

No it doesn't. You just made that up.

Elementary particle released from the atom must meet its counterpart, which is possible in a gravity field only.

What does that even mean?

In a empty space time, there are no particles in the open area and thus no explosion at all.

Atomic bombs obviously aren't empty. They are filled with fissile material.

Friends, it is not criticizing Newton or Einstein.

If you are claiming that explosions generate less energy further away from a gravitational field then you are criticizing Einstein because you are saying that E=mc2 is incorrect. No part of that equation depends upon the local strength of gravity.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 14/07/2019 01:14:21
@pasala You type a lot. Copious paragraphs of garbled nonsense. Doesn't it get tiring?

Being a science enthusiast is not about finding the one thing that all the scientists overlooked and being a hero. It is about listening, learning and knowing when you are wrong.

If you actually applied your energies to learning, then you might actually understand some of the unsolved mysteries of science, instead of just making them up.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: G on 14/07/2019 12:53:06
Total energy released by an atom bomb mainly depends on:
01  Internal energy
02  Gravity in a particular  place.
Suppose if we detonate the same atom bomb on Moon:
01  Internal energy is same.
02  Gravity is just 1/6th only

Since gravity is weak, curvature of space time by the closed volume is also weak. “eddies” into space time slows down and it spreads up to limited area only.

Suppose if the same atomic bomb is detonated in space, outside Earth’s climate: Here there is sufficient energy but it is not present with any force i.e., free state and thus even though there is inward as well outward thrust explosion is limited.

We've been over this in a previous thread. Gravity has nothing to do with how powerful a nuclear reaction is.

Of course not , gravity is the weaker nuclear force emitted ,  the proton and electrons bond forming a convergence of opposites by the strong nuclear force ,  as a result creating a third  weaker convergence force , gravity .
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/07/2019 12:59:36
@pasala You type a lot. Copious paragraphs of garbled nonsense. Doesn't it get tiring?

Being a science enthusiast is not about finding the one thing that all the scientists overlooked and being a hero. It is about listening, learning and knowing when you are wrong.

If you actually applied your energies to learning, then you might actually understand some of the unsolved mysteries of science, instead of just making them up.
It appears "Text books" are your vein, blood everything.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 14/07/2019 13:50:31
@pasala Think about it. You have nothing to lose. At the moment you are just opening yourself up to ridicule. You could be gaining knowledge and actually participating in a positive way. You may think the price is not worth paying. If that is the case you are wasting your time. You only get one life. Your choice.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/07/2019 14:12:19
“Gravitation is not an attractive force between masses, but a pressure force exerted by spacetime on closed volumes that tends to bring them closer to each other”.

“It is true that all elementary particles pushes their surroundings and produces convex curvature.  If we replace two or more closed volumes, pressure against them increases and the same was experimentally proved”.

When an atom is detonated, do this pressure force exerted by space time is absent.  It is true that nuclear force is strong and there is no doubt about that.

We are studying ‘Gravity’ and ‘nuclear force’ as two different subjects.

It is true that each and every closed volume curves the spacetime.

Basic thing is can we ignore this pressure force exerted by spacetime in nuclear explosion.

Here science is 'hero' and we are all players.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: G on 14/07/2019 14:28:09
“Gravitation is not an attractive force between masses, but a pressure force exerted by spacetime on closed volumes that tends to bring them closer to each other”.

“It is true that all elementary particles pushes their surroundings and produces convex curvature.  If we replace two or more closed volumes, pressure against them increases and the same was experimentally proved”.

When an atom is detonated, do this pressure force exerted by space time is absent.  It is true that nuclear force is strong and there is no doubt about that.

We are studying ‘Gravity’ and ‘nuclear force’ as two different subjects.

It is true that each and every closed volume curves the spacetime.

Basic thing is can we ignore this pressure force exerted by spacetime in nuclear explosion.

Here science is 'hero' and we are all players.

Yours
Psreddy

You are incorrect , gravity is an attractive force between masses that have a greater density than the Higgs field mass .

The causality of gravity between masses being the weaker nuclear force that expands from the denser particle over an infinite distance , the Higgs field being the aether of propagation that has 0 permeability or opposing force to the weaker nuclear force field propagation , the reason is that it is likewise . In comparison , mixing water with water .
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 14/07/2019 15:17:27
Of course not , gravity is the weaker nuclear force emitted ,  the proton and electrons bond forming a convergence of opposites by the strong nuclear force ,  as a result creating a third  weaker convergence force , gravity .

That's not how that works.

If we replace two or more closed volumes, pressure against them increases and the same was experimentally proved

By what experiment?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: G on 14/07/2019 15:46:48
Of course not , gravity is the weaker nuclear force emitted ,  the proton and electrons bond forming a convergence of opposites by the strong nuclear force ,  as a result creating a third  weaker convergence force , gravity .

That's not how it works

You are incorrect ,  that is exactly how it works . Perhaps you are mistaking the gravity effect of large dense masses on the Higgs field i.e space time curvature and Newton gravity ?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/07/2019 16:02:08
Of course not , gravity is the weaker nuclear force emitted ,  the proton and electrons bond forming a convergence of opposites by the strong nuclear force ,  as a result creating a third  weaker convergence force , gravity .

That's not how that works.

If we replace two or more closed volumes, pressure against them increases and the same was experimentally proved

By what experiment?

Please try to acquire the knowledge of recent developments.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/07/2019 16:02:52
Ok, we will meet next week end. Bye
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/07/2019 01:10:34
You are incorrect ,  that is exactly how it works .

Electrons don't even interact via the strong nuclear force. The bond between a proton and electron in an atom is mediated by the electromagnetic force. Also, mass is not correlated to either of the nuclear forces, so you can't say that gravity is somehow caused by the nuclear forces.

Please try to acquire the knowledge of recent developments.

You're going to need to be more specific than that. I can't read your mind.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: G on 15/07/2019 12:12:26
You are incorrect ,  that is exactly how it works .

Electrons don't even interact via the strong nuclear force. The bond between a proton and electron in an atom is mediated by the electromagnetic force. Also, mass is not correlated to either of the nuclear forces, so you can't say that gravity is somehow caused by the nuclear forces.

According to who ?

You mean it doesn't mention this in any of the text books?

The universe is not an electrical universe , it is an atomic energy universe with atomic matter /particles  and atomic fields .

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/07/2019 13:22:17
According to who ?

According to existing scientific evidence. Electrons are leptons, and as Britannica says, leptons "are not affected by the strong force" : https://www.britannica.com/science/lepton . Unlike protons and neutrons, they do not bind together because they do not have the strong nuclear force.

You mean it doesn't mention this in any of the text books?

Doesn't mention what? The stuff you made up? No, it doesn't.

The universe is not an electrical universe , it is an atomic energy universe with atomic matter /particles  and atomic fields .

It has all of those things. You're not denying the existing of electricity, are you?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: G on 15/07/2019 13:43:49
According to who ?

According to existing scientific evidence. Electrons are leptons, and as Britannica says, leptons "are not affected by the strong force" : https://www.britannica.com/science/lepton . Unlike protons and neutrons, they do not bind together because they do not have the strong nuclear force.

You mean it doesn't mention this in any of the text books?

Doesn't mention what? The stuff you made up? No, it doesn't.

The universe is not an electrical universe , it is an atomic energy universe with atomic matter /particles  and atomic fields .

It has all of those things. You're not denying the existing of electricity, are you?
Electricity is a product , it is not something that exists fundamentally .

The strong nuclear force between protons and electrons  is the opposites of polarity .

An electron is not attracted to another electron and a proton is not attracted to another proton , the are relative massless and have no strong nuclear force in consideration of the relativity of likewise polarity .

The strong nuclear force only applies when two opposite polarity particles are involved .

However , when two opposite polarity particles  combine to form a stable particle , the convergence of the two individual , opposite polarity particles , forms a new combined force of the two individual forces ,a third force namely gravity .

Although the combining of an electron and a proton cancel out charge signs , that does not automatically mean that the attractive force is cancelled , it simply means the summation of attractive force is weakened .
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/07/2019 13:46:04
Electricity is a product , it is not something that exists fundamentally .

The strong nuclear force between protons and electrons  is the opposites of polarity .

An electron is not attracted to another electron and a proton is not attracted to another proton , the are relative massless and have no strong nuclear force in consideration of the relativity of likewise polarity .

The strong nuclear force only applies when two opposite polarity particles are involved .

However , when two opposite polarity particles  combine to form a stable particle , the convergence of the two individual , opposite polarity particles , forms a new combined force of the two individual forces ,a third force namely gravity .

Although the combining of an electron and a proton cancel out charge signs , that does not automatically mean that the attractive force is cancelled , it simply means the summation of attractive force is weakened .

I'm starting to suspect that you are Thebox...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: G on 15/07/2019 14:40:38
Electricity is a product , it is not something that exists fundamentally .

The strong nuclear force between protons and electrons  is the opposites of polarity .

An electron is not attracted to another electron and a proton is not attracted to another proton , the are relative massless and have no strong nuclear force in consideration of the relativity of likewise polarity .

The strong nuclear force only applies when two opposite polarity particles are involved .

However , when two opposite polarity particles  combine to form a stable particle , the convergence of the two individual , opposite polarity particles , forms a new combined force of the two individual forces ,a third force namely gravity .

Although the combining of an electron and a proton cancel out charge signs , that does not automatically mean that the attractive force is cancelled , it simply means the summation of attractive force is weakened .

I'm starting to suspect that you are Thebox...

No , I don't think the Universe is an enclosed system , what gave that impression ?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/07/2019 15:56:06
No , I don't think the Universe is an enclosed system , what gave that impression ?
Nothing gave the impression that you think the universe is a closed system (BTW, it is) .
But the stuff you post gives the impression you are either  TheBox or a similar troll
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: G on 15/07/2019 16:18:46
No , I don't think the Universe is an enclosed system , what gave that impression ?
Nothing gave the impression that you think the universe is a closed system (BTW, it is) .
But the stuff you post gives the impression you are either  TheBox or a similar troll
Hmmm , who are you exactly ?
I could accuse you of likewise as you have a fake profile that is not your real name also.

I don't know you , if you have no science to discuss , I'm not interested .
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/07/2019 16:24:48
if you have no science to discuss , I'm not interested .
You have made it clear that you are either unwilling or unable to discuss science.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: G on 15/07/2019 16:43:41
if you have no science to discuss , I'm not interested .
You have made it clear that you are either unwilling or unable to discuss science.
You've made two posts towards me in which neither have been science .
Do you understand anything about science ? Specifically the subject of gravity and gravitational force?

I very much doubt you do !

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/07/2019 17:39:06
You asked a question. "what gave that impression ?"

I answered it. "Nothing gave the impression ..."

That's science.
I also corrected your error about the universe being a closed system.
That's science too.
On the other hand, this
Electricity is a product , it is not something that exists fundamentally .

The strong nuclear force between protons and electrons  is the opposites of polarity .
Is unscientific nonsense.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 21/07/2019 07:25:59
Here most of the discussion is on:

E = mc2:

E = mc2 is a part of Special Relativity. However, despite the fact that the calculus is quite simple, Modern Physics does not propose a rational explanation of this strange phenomenon.The Spacetime Model demonstrates that the principle of converting mass to energy is very simple. This principle is shown by the following example.
•   Part A
An empty sphere is immerged in a container filled with water. The surface of water is quiet.
•   Part B
If the sphere disappears suddenly by a thought experiment, the depression will make eddies which have energy (E = hν). Converting a mass to energy follows the same principle. A closed volume disappears, and is transformed into an open volume. This produces "eddies" in spacetime, which are gamma rays.

Ok, let us discuss Gravity:

If it is 2d Space time:

1)  It is completely empty.
2) Particles move from one place to other with maximum speed.
3)  Particles never stay at any place.

Here if we explode an atom bomb:

Here space time is completely empty.  Energy coming out due to atomic explosion moves at.  There is no explosion, no eddies in the space time.

If it is 4d Space time:

1) Spacetime is not empty.
2)  Particles moving from one place to other meets the other particles, Gravity is the reason as per Newton.

So, 4d Space time is completely filled with particles. In my view, huge potential energy is stored on Earth.

Suppose if 1 ton atom bomb is exploded:

1)  In this fissile material is very small.
2)  Further energy stored within fissile material is very, very small.

When it is exploded small amount of energy stored within fissile material is freed.  We have to remember an important point that it is additional energy only.  It is true that energy is neither created nor destroyed it only can be modified one form to other.  This additional energy, freed from atoms tries to make room and pushes the existing energy.  This results in raising of radiation and creates eddies into space time.

*  Conversion of total mass to energy is wrong.
*  Thought experiment is incorrect.

Everything is happening before us.

These are all effects of Gravity only.

But ‘What exactly is 'Gravity’ is a big puzzle.  It is true that all elementary particles curves the space time.  It is practically proved.  Isn’t this experiment done in Gravity field.

As per Einstein, Space time is warping the things on the Earth.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 21/07/2019 17:52:19
However, despite the fact that the calculus is quite simple, Modern Physics does not propose a rational explanation of this strange phenomenon.

It is understood why E=mc2:
If the sphere disappears suddenly by a thought experiment, the depression will make eddies which have energy (E = hν). Converting a mass to energy follows the same principle. A closed volume disappears, and is transformed into an open volume. This produces "eddies" in spacetime, which are gamma rays.

According to what experiment?

1)  It is completely empty.
2) Particles move from one place to other with maximum speed.
3)  Particles never stay at any place.

If it's completely empty, then there aren't any particles in it that can move.

*  Conversion of total mass to energy is wrong.
*  Thought experiment is incorrect.

Nobody said that atomic bombs convert total mass to energy. Mass isn't converted to energy anyway. Both the total mass and the total energy of a system remains constant. What atomic bombs do is convert potential energy into kinetic energy.

These are all effects of Gravity only.

You keep saying that but you have yet to demonstrate it.

I'm also still waiting for you to tell me what experiment it was that supported your assertion here:

Quote
“It is true that all elementary particles pushes their surroundings and produces convex curvature.  If we replace two or more closed volumes, pressure against them increases and the same was experimentally proved”.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/07/2019 07:31:43
Mr. Kryptid

What is moving at the speed of light.  .  How potential energy is converted into so much of kinetic energy.  Why speed of light C2 is used and how it works.

What exactly is gaining Kinetic energy.  Whether it is the atoms or the energy released therefrom.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2019 09:36:01
E = mc2 is a part of Special Relativity. However, despite the fact that the calculus is quite simple, Modern Physics does not propose a rational explanation of this strange phenomenon.The Spacetime Model demonstrates that the principle of converting mass to energy is very simple. This principle is shown by the following example.
•   Part A
An empty sphere is immerged in a container filled with water. The surface of water is quiet.
•   Part B
If the sphere disappears suddenly by a thought experiment, the depression will make eddies which have energy (E = hν). Converting a mass to energy follows the same principle. A closed volume disappears, and is transformed into an open volume. This produces "eddies" in spacetime, which are gamma rays.

Ok, let us discuss Gravity:

No.
You can't just post gibberish and then say "OK, let's move to something else".
You need to explain the evidence behind your ideas.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 28/07/2019 17:59:37
Question: is the question mark key on your keyboard broken?

What is moving at the speed of light.
Quote
Why speed of light C2 is used and how it works.

Nothing is necessarily moving at the speed of light. It is that the derivation of the equation depends upon the fact that the mass of an object changes as it nears the speed of light: http://www.emc2-explained.info/Emc2/Derive.htm#.XT3Pm2hKjrc

Quote
How potential energy is converted into so much of kinetic energy.

That depends upon the specific scenario. The conversion of potential energy into kinetic energy depends upon the action of one of the four fundamental forces. In the case of an unstable nucleus splitting into two smaller nuclei, the electrical repulsion between the nuclei is what converts the potential energy into kinetic energy.

Quote
What exactly is gaining Kinetic energy.  Whether it is the atoms or the energy released therefrom.

The kinetic energy is gained by whatever the reaction products are. If it is a uranium nucleus undergoing fission, then the kinetic energy is gained by the resulting nuclei and neutrons produced.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/07/2019 18:31:53
E = mc2 is a part of Special Relativity. However, despite the fact that the calculus is quite simple, Modern Physics does not propose a rational explanation of this strange phenomenon.The Spacetime Model demonstrates that the principle of converting mass to energy is very simple. This principle is shown by the following example.
•   Part A
An empty sphere is immerged in a container filled with water. The surface of water is quiet.
•   Part B
If the sphere disappears suddenly by a thought experiment, the depression will make eddies which have energy (E = hν). Converting a mass to energy follows the same principle. A closed volume disappears, and is transformed into an open volume. This produces "eddies" in spacetime, which are gamma rays.

Ok, let us discuss Gravity:

No.
You can't just post gibberish and then say "OK, let's move to something else".
You need to explain the evidence behind your ideas.

I don't think it is correct to use that word.  It is collected from research papers submitted to a famous university on Space time.

E=MC2  formula states that the equivalent energy (E) can be calculated as the mass (m) multiplied by the speed of light (c = ~3×108 m/s) squared. Similarly, anything having energy exhibits a corresponding mass m given by its energy E divided by the speed of light squared c2
"Nuclear fission is the process of splitting apart nuclei (usually large nuclei). When large nuclei, such as uranium-235, fissions, energy is released.[2] So much energy is released that there is a measurable decrease in mass, from the mass-energy equivalence. This means that some of the mass is converted to energy. The amount of mass lost in the fission process is equal to about 3.20×10−11 J of energy".

Basic thing is how this potential energy is converted to kinetic energy.  What i am saying is that there is huge energy already present in the open area. Further i reiterated that it is the basic reason for Gravity.  At present it is opined that there is no such energy in the open area.

Ok, it doesn't matter.  I cannot prove it.  It is just an attempt to give an idea to scientists that there is something which is responsible for all this.  Spacetime cannot interact the things on the Earth directly.  If we say that it is warping the things on Earth, means there is something "Medium" by which it is doing.

Newton rightly accepted this:
In the words of Newton itself “Gravity must be caused by an agent acting constantly according to certain laws; but whether this agent be material or immaterial, I have left to the consideration of my readers”  Isaac Newton.

Gravitation is (locally) equivalent to acceleration. “This is the principle of equivalence”.

So relativity says, Gravity is equivalent to  acceleration.  When you are in inertial position, this medium is present and when you accelerates or speeds up, slowly it weakens.

Hereby, my humble request to scientists is that, it may be or may not be correct, keep this in mind while carrying out research.  Test small quantities of TNT in different Gravity fields, notice variations, if there is change, it is a step forward.

Well, see that most of the PE is converted to KE in the open area only.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/07/2019 18:42:14
Question: is the question mark key on your keyboard broken?

What is moving at the speed of light.
Quote
Why speed of light C2 is used and how it works.

Nothing is necessarily moving at the speed of light. It is that the derivation of the equation depends upon the fact that the mass of an object changes as it nears the speed of light: http://www.emc2-explained.info/Emc2/Derive.htm#.XT3Pm2hKjrc

Quote
How potential energy is converted into so much of kinetic energy.

That depends upon the specific scenario. The conversion of potential energy into kinetic energy depends upon the action of one of the four fundamental forces. In the case of an unstable nucleus splitting into two smaller nuclei, the electrical repulsion between the nuclei is what converts the potential energy into kinetic energy.

Quote
What exactly is gaining Kinetic energy.  Whether it is the atoms or the energy released therefrom.

The kinetic energy is gained by whatever the reaction products are. If it is a uranium nucleus undergoing fission, then the kinetic energy is gained by the resulting nuclei and neutrons produced.
Thank you.  But nothing new.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2019 18:59:37
I don't think it is correct to use that word.  It is collected from research papers submitted to a famous university on Space time.
Cite the paper that says this
A closed volume disappears, and is transformed into an open volume. This produces "eddies" in spacetime, which are gamma rays.

or accept that it is gibberish.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/07/2019 19:06:00
Why Gravity is weak force?
:
Some of the enthusiastic people telephoned me, why Gravity is weak force when compared to strong nuclear force.

That is right question.  It is true that Gravity is the weakest when compared to other forces such as strong nuclear force and electromagnetic force.

Let us see the process:
1)  Total nuclear fission takes place within short area and its area is limited.
2)  Electromagnetic charge arises only when you charge a particular cable.

Where as Gravity is different.  Well, according to Einstein's theory of general relativity, massive objects warp the spacetime around them, and the effect a warp has on objects is what we call gravity. So, locally, spacetime is curved around every object with mass.

This curvature is in wide area.  What my theory says "this curvature is nothing but potential energy".  Energy is having an important quality of moving from high to low.  This is the reason why it is equivalent to acceleration.

So, naturally pooling or concentration of energy at a particular place is impossible.

Actually there is no difference in between these three forces.  They are inter-related and inter-connected to each other.

If research is taken up, it is not so difficult and big break-through can be achieved very easily.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/07/2019 19:57:47
Actually there is no difference in between these three forces.
Yes there is.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 29/07/2019 02:10:31
2)  Electromagnetic charge arises only when you charge a particular cable.

No it doesn't. Net electric charge is a conserved quantity that cannot be created or destroyed. Electrons are always charged, no matter where they are or what they are doing.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 12/08/2019 16:10:29
This, in a nutshell, then, is the General Theory of Relativity, and its central premise is that the curvature of space-time is directly determined by the distribution of matter and energy contained within it. What complicates things, however, is that the distribution of matter and energy is in turn governed by the curvature of space, leading to a feedback loop and a lot of very complex mathematics. Thus, the presence of mass/energy determines the geometry of space, and the geometry of space determines the motion of mass/energy

Please remember that this is the base for General relativity.   Curvature of space time is directly determined by the distribution of matter and energy contained within it.  Suppose if it is empty no curvature at all.

When an atom bomb is detonated, energy, afresh is released into open area.  This is additional energy only.  It pushes the existing energy leading to eddies in the space time.

Please remember total energy is not coming from the atom bomb.

Ok, it is very difficult or impossible to prove it, but it is appearing before us.  If an atom bomb is detonated in empty space, 2d, where no matter and energy exists, small amount of energy released makes no wonders, moves out.

Suppose if it is on Moon where gravity is weak and thus curvature of space time, and  distribution of matter and energy.  Here additional energy released into the space is same, however energy present in the open area is weak and thus eddies.

Friends, don't search text books, this is purely mine, "New" theory/idea only.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 12/08/2019 19:21:23
Suppose if it is empty no curvature at all.

Then there wouldn't be any matter or energy present at all and therefore you can't have an atomic bomb there either. If the bomb was there, then the space wouldn't be empty.

It pushes the existing energy leading to eddies in the space time.

Evidence needed.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/08/2019 16:49:02
I think it is better to have clear idea on "what exactly is gravity" and how it is working on Earth and then to go for black holes which is not appearing  or existing before us.  When we are not in a position to stand or walk how can one expect to run.

There is curvature on Earth.  As per General relativity mass curves space time and curved space tells mass how to move.  It is practically proved that all elementary particles curves the space time around them.  We are all living in this curved paths and thus Gravity.

The key idea of Einstein's theory of general relativity is that gravity is not an ordinary force, but rather a property of space-time geometry.

It is also true that Gravity is not an attractive force between masses, but a pressure force exerted by space time on closed volumes that tends to bring them closer to each other.

There is curvature against mass and hence it is opined that mass curves the space.  But this practical experiment was done in a gravity field.

Another important point is that distribution of mass/energy decides curvature.  Suppose if there is no mass or energy in the open area, there is no curvature at all.

So we can draw a conclusion that it is not the mass alone that decides curvature of space time.

It is the distribution of mass and energy that decides curvature.

Suppose if there is no energy in the open area, particles can do nothing or curve.

So, finally it is the energy present in the space that decides curvature.

Ok, without pooling or concentration of potential energy at a place mass cannot curve the space time and thus Gravity.

Initially, before formation of our Solar system also energy started spreading in a wide area.

In the bowling ball and rubber sheet analogy also, what exactly is working as rubber sheet.  It is nothing but energy only.

One’s energy came into existence, Earth like a bowling ball entered it.    Initially there is no Gravity at all.  Energy curved the Earth.  This is like our satellites which are being sent into space.  Here there is curvature of space time but there is no Gravity.

Particles raising from Earth paved way for warping of space time.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 25/08/2019 18:43:18
Trampoline analogy:
“Consider a very large trampoline with nothing on the trampoline pad and trampoline pad remains flat and parallel to the ground. Now place a heavy bowling ball at the center of the trampoline pad. The center of the pad will sag downward. If we assume the analogy that the trampoline pad represents space-time, and the bowling ball a gravitating object, then the sagging of the trampoline represents the curvature of space time under the influence of gravity. We can now see that if we take a lighter ball, and place it at the edge of the trampoline pad, it will roll down toward the bowling ball. This attraction to the bowling ball is because the path toward the bowling ball through space is favorably curved”.

Well, here in this analogy there are several important things to be discussed.  Whatever Einstein assumed is 100% correct.  However he could not explain what exactly is working as trampoline.  I think it is the base for “what exactly is gravity”.  Suppose if it is a 2d space time, trampoline will not dip and thus curvature of space time against mass. Ok, if it is 4d space time, trampoline automatically dips and mass curves space time.

Simply saying that, if we place a huge mass in space, it curves the space time is insufficient or incorrect. It must tell us the exact medium by which it is happening.

In the words of Newton:
“Gravity must be caused by an agent acting constantly according to certain laws; but whether this agent be material or immaterial, I have left to the consideration of my readers”.

As per General relativity curvature of space time mainly depends on the distribution of mass/energy.  In a 2d space time there is no mass/energy and thus trampoline is flat.

So, once again I reiterate that it is the energy in the space that decides curvature.

At present it is opined that space is empty and total energy is coming from Sun.

In 1 second the Sun generates 3.8 x 1026 Joules of energy.  Ok, then what about the energy generated in 1 minute and in one hour and in one day.  Suppose let us assume that Sun produced “X” amount of energy in a 24 hour day.  On the very next second of the second day, it again pumps in  3.8 x 1026 Joules of energy.

It is true that “Energy is neither created nor destroyed” it can only be modified into one form to other.  Each second energy generated by Sun is just additional only.

The atmosphere of the Sun consists of 3 layers the photosphere, the chromosphere and the corona. Energy produced from Sun is transferred from the core through the successive layers.  One more important is that these layers extend up to the end of Solar system and energy transfers from one layer to the other and each subsequent layer is weakest when compared to previous one. .

Here an important point is that Space is not empty.   Each second energy generated by Sun is just additional only.  It only pushes existing energy in the space.  Sun energy is not creating layers, it only maintaining existing layers.

This energy in the space is working as trampoline cloth.  In case if there is no mass/energy, space turns out as 2d.

When a huge mass such as Earth is placed in the space, energy nearby moves and curves the space time and throws it into inertial position.  It is true that energy is of object oriented.

Similar thing is happening in the case of satellites also.  When a satellite is placed in the space, space time of the satellite is curved and throws it into inertial position.

Curvature of the space time only throws the mass to inertial position, but it cannot give Gravity.  Of course gravity is different.  It must be warped by the space time.

Newton's First Law states that an object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force.

No curved space time tells mass how to move and it will remain in inertial position unless a force is acted upon it.  No curved paths exists in the space.

Each layer of energy is a path.  Masses moves along these layers.  There is a flow of energy in these lanes.  It is creating pressure or force against curvature and thus rotation and revolution.   In this process it moves ups and downs but never crosses lane.

Here, as assumed by Newton there is a medium, “energy”  playing key role.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 10/09/2019 18:38:15
This is the Acid test for the theory proposed by me:
“The inner planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars) are relatively small rocky planets made up mostly of silicate minerals and iron and nickel metal. Most of the earth is made up of only three elements: iron, silicon, and oxygen. Most of the iron is in the core of the earth. Most of the oxygen is locked up in minerals with silicon. In fact, the mineral quartz is made up of only silicon and oxygen. The inner planets are relatively small and mostly solid, though earth has a thin atmosphere made up mostly of nitrogen and oxygen gases.
The outer planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune) have much different compositions. They all have solid cores of rock, metal, and maybe even ice, but these planets are totally enveloped in thick atmospheres of gas. Hydrogen and Helium (the two lightest elements) make up most of the gases in the atmospheres of these planets”.

At present we are of the opinion that atmosphere of Sun consists of 3 layers, but I had proposed 8 to 9 layers and energy is being transferred from one layer to other and each subsequent layer is weaker and thus curvature of space time.

In the Outer planets region, energy is weak and thus no rocky planets can exist.  Suppose if an asteroid consisting hard rock enters our solar system.  In the outer region, energy is weak, still it curves the space time of the asteroid.   However it cannot through it into inertial position and thus it continues its journey and enters next layer.  In all outer region where energy is weak, it crosses them and enters inner region.

Here in the inner region, energy is spread thickly and thus curvature against asteroid.  But it depends on the speed with which it was travelling, since gravity is equal to acceleration.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 10/09/2019 22:48:51
In the Outer planets region, energy is weak and thus no rocky planets can survive.

What? Do they explode out there or something?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 11/09/2019 02:11:26
In the Outer planets region, energy is weak and thus no rocky planets can survive.

What? Do they explode out there or something?
Oh, sorry it is an incorrect word used by me.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: comingdwindling on 13/09/2019 06:55:52
Gravity is a force of attraction that exists between any two masses, any two bodies, any two particles. Gravity is not just the attraction between objects and the Earth. It is an attraction that exists between all objects, everywhere in the universe. Sir Isaac Newton discovered that a force is required to change the speed or direction of movement of an object. He also realized that the force called "gravity" must make an apple fall from a tree, or humans and animals live on the surface of our spinning planet without being flung off. Furthermore, he deduced that gravity forces exist between all objects.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 13/09/2019 15:20:32
And ............?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 13/09/2019 17:13:19
Oh, sorry it is an incorrect word used by me.

I don't understand your reasoning. Why do you say that rocky planets cannot exist far out in the Solar System whereas gas giants can? What distance do you propose is the limit for the existence for rocky planets? What about gas giants? Icy bodies?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/09/2019 16:29:36
“Tμν is a mathematical object (a tensor to be precise) which describes material bodies. In that mathematical object, there are some parameters such as the density, the momentum, mass-energy... etc. So it is those parameters that determine 'how much space-time curvature' is around a body. And one of the parameters is of course energy. Therefore, energy do bend space-time”.

That is the core of Einstein.

If we replace the closed volume by two or more closed volumes, the pressure exerted by spacetime on these volumes tends to bring them closer to each other. The result is equivalent to an attraction. For example, a pressure on one side of a sheet of paper is equivalent to an attraction on the other side. In both cases, the sheet is curved.
Gravitation is not an attractive force between masses, but a pressure force exerted by spacetime on closed volumes that tends to bring them closer to each other.

So curvature of space time is caused by energy.  In the trampoline analogy also, energy in the space time is working as trampoline.  When we place a bowling ball, the space time of the bowling ball is curved.

Science is developed a lot. At present we are sending satellites into space.  The space time of the satellite is curved and there is sufficient energy to cause this action.  It is causing a mass effect.    This is what happening to our Earth also.

Suppose if there is no energy in the space time, it turns out as 2d or flat.  However it is true that Sun is pumping huge energy into space.  It is true that energy is neither created nor destroyed.  Now at present scientists have identified that there are 3 layers in the atmosphere of Sun.

But I propose that total energy of Sun in the space is spread in the form of layers only.  It is like a rainbow.  Each color of the rainbow is an energy source only.  As that of rainbow I propose 7 to 8 layers of sun energy in the space time.

As we move away from Sun, energy weakens.  Curvature of space time mainly depends on the distribution of mass/energy in the open area.

When an asteroid enters our solar system, it all depends on the matter contained therein.  First of all we have to remember that there is no gravity here. Energy in the space moves towards the asteroid and curves and try to throw it into inertial position.  Here in the outer planets region, energy present in the layers is weak and thus mass effect.

It is true that each and every closed volume curves the space time.  If the asteroid is gaseous form, mass effect is limited.  Though energy is weak, it is sufficient to cause and threw it into inertial position.

If the asteroid  is rocky type, since mass effect is limited it crosses outer region and enters inner region.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/09/2019 17:35:00
I couldn't make any sense out of that reply. Why can an icy body exist far out in the Solar System but not a rocky one? Can you rephrase that?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 22/09/2019 13:59:35
As we move away from Sun, energy weakens.  Curvature of space time mainly depends on the distribution of mass/energy in the open area.

When an asteroid enters our solar system, it all depends on the matter contained therein.  First of all we have to remember that there is no gravity here. Energy in the space moves towards the asteroid and curves and try to throw it into inertial position.  Here in the outer planets region, energy present in the layers is weak and thus mass effect.

It is true that each and every closed volume curves the space time.  If the asteroid is gaseous form, mass effect is limited.  Though energy is weak, it is sufficient to cause and threw it into inertial position.

If the asteroid  is rocky type, since mass effect is limited it crosses outer region and enters inner region.
Mr Kryptid
It all depends on the mass effect.  At the outer region, since energy is weak mass effect is limited.  However in the case of gaseous planets, each particle can curve the space time and thus they can exist.  In fact weak layers of Sun energy extends even beyond our Solar system.  Here energy is so weak and thus curvature of space time.  At these layers only dust and light particles exists.
Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 22/09/2019 15:06:01
However in the case of gaseous planets, each particle can curve the space time and thus they can exist.

And why do you say that the gas giant can do this whereas rocky planets cannot?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 22/09/2019 15:56:26
Mr Kryptid
As per Einstein Math:
"This, in a nutshell, then, is the General Theory of Relativity, and its central premise is that the curvature of space-time is directly determined by the distribution of matter and energy contained within it. What complicates things, however, is that the distribution of matter and energy is in turn governed by the curvature of space, leading to a feedback loop and a lot of very complex mathematics. Thus, the presence of mass/energy determines the geometry of space, and the geometry of space determines the motion of mass/energy".
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 22/09/2019 18:17:01
That didn't answer my question. Not even close.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 22/09/2019 18:55:26
“Einstein eventually identified the property of spacetime which is responsible for gravity as its curvature. Space and time in Einstein's universe are no longer flat (as implicitly assumed by Newton) but can pushed and pulled, stretched and warped by matter. Gravity feels strongest where spacetime is most curved, and it vanishes where spacetime is flat”.

Gravitation is not an attractive force between masses, but a pressure force exerted by spacetime on closed volumes that tends to bring them closer to each other.

Ok, there is another thinking or possibility that these elementary particles are building blocks and are responsible for Curvature of space time which is not at all correct.

It is true that Earth is a huge mass and space time around Earth is curved.  As per Einstein this is responsible for Gravity.

Well it is true and scientifically proved that all the closed volumes, such as elementary particles produces a convex curvature of space time.

Suppose let us assume that an elementary particle curved the space time.  Isn’t it true that this elementary particle is already existing in a deformed or curved space.

Basic question is:
01  Elementary particle exists in a deformed space time only.
02  It is also curving space time.
03  What exactly is the relationship in between these two curvatures.
04  Can we say that both are different.

This is the important point that bothers my mind.  Well, of course any curvature mainly depends on the distribution of mass/energy.  Since mass is equated with energy, let us assume as energy only.

Ok, it is true that there is strong curvature against Earth.  I feel that curvature of Earth is strongly influencing each and every particle.

Curving the space time by an elementary particle in a curved path to non-curved is different.  This is like, if we are in a big water body, at the surface we will differently when compared to a deep place.  As we move deep, pressure exerted by water increases.

In case if an elementary particle exist in a non-curved paths, do it, curve the space time similarly or differently.

If this is explored properly scientific revolutions will come out.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 22/09/2019 22:51:48
Are you going to actually answer my question?

And why do you say that the gas giant can do this whereas rocky planets cannot?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/09/2019 13:10:56
Gravitation is not an attractive force between masses, but a pressure force exerted by spacetime on closed volumes that tends to bring them closer to each other.

Ok, there is another thinking or possibility that these elementary particles are building blocks and are responsible for Curvature of space time which is not at all correct.
Well, it is true that curvature is different to Gravity.  I could not present the above idea in a better way.  I will try later.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/09/2019 18:38:08
Mr Kryptid

There is huge energy in our solar system and it is spread in the form of layers.    At present we have identified 3 layers only.  This is like rainbow where each color represent energy strength.

These energy layers extend even beyond our solar system.  It never extinguishes or disappears suddenly and weak layers extend beyond.  Here only dust particles exists.

As we move into our outer region, energy strength in the layers start increasing.  Naturally this results in curvature of space time.

Each particle curves the space time around them.  Here there is no gravity.  We have to keep it in mind that curvature of space time is different.  If the particles are spread in wide area, each particle curves the space.  Naturally direct exposure of particles to energy increases.

Though energy is weak particles are spread in wide area and due to curvature they are thrown into inertial position.

Mass is the matter an object contains.  As the mass size increases matter contained therein also increases.  Direct exposure of particles to energy decreases.  As the size of mass increases, more energy pressure is needed.  Energy curves the space time of outer layer of the mass only.

Here in the outer region, unless each and every particle gets into the grip of energy, it cannot be thrown into inertial position.

Let us imagine that an asteroid entered into our solar system.  At the outer layer itself, there is resistance.  Energy try to curve the space time of the asteroid.   However curvature of space time mainly depends on the matter of the asteroid and speed with which it is travelling.

In case if it is a gas giant, it is spread in a wide area and more particles are exposed to energy, resulting in curvature.  Though energy is weak particles gets into its grip.  In case if the asteroid is accelerating with lot of speed, it may cross outer region and can enter inner region.  As the curvature increases, radiation raises and gas giant start spreading to wide area..

Suppose if it is a 2d space time, it is empty.  There is no mass/energy distribution.  If there is no mass/energy distribution, it never curves the space time of the mass.  Mass gains weight and start moving.  Original weight of the any elementary particle can be assessed here only.

Here on Earth things are different.  Earth is a huge mass and it is already in inner region where energy is present with lot of pressure.  There is strong curvature against Earth.  In addition to this there is Gravity.

Ok, there is an apple, since there is strong distribution of mass/energy it curves the space time of the apple and throws it into inertial position.  Gravity is nothing but warping of curved space time.  It is being done differently and I don’t want to go deep.

First of all we have to remember one important point that curvature of space time is different to Gravity. Curvature only throw the mass into inertial position but it mainly depends on mass/energy distribution.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 28/09/2019 20:44:14
In case if it is a gas giant, it is spread in a wide area and more particles are exposed to energy, resulting in curvature.  Though energy is weak particles gets into its grip.

So what you're saying is that it depends on the density of the planet, is that right?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 29/09/2019 17:59:21
Gravity:
“Einstein eventually identified the property of spacetime which is responsible for gravity as its curvature. Space and time in Einstein's universe are no longer flat (as implicitly assumed by Newton) but can pushed and pulled, stretched and warped by matter. Gravity feels strongest where spacetime is most curved, and it vanishes where spacetime is flat. This is the core of Einstein's theory of general relativity, which is often summed up in words as follows: "matter tells spacetime how to curve, and curved spacetime tells matter how to move". In the same way gravitation in Einstein's theory arises not as a force propagating through spacetime, but rather as a feature of spacetime itself. According to Einstein, your weight on earth is due to the fact that your body is traveling through warped spacetime”

As assumed by Einstein there is strong curvature against Earth.  But Gravity is different, it must be warped by space time.

Well, of course there is strong curvature against Moon also.  But there is weak Gravity, because it is not warped by space time.  Why space time fails to warp things on Moon.  Moon is also rotating against its axis.  Things on the Moon are also travelling in warped space time only.

In case if we feel that curvature of space time against Moon is weak then it will not be in inertial position.  Naturally it will gain weight and momentum.  So there is strong curvature against Moon also.

Basic difference is that it is not being warped by space time.

“To extend this further, let’s imagine a cylindrical carnival ride where you and your fellow passengers are pinned to the outer surface. The cylinder is rotated faster and faster until the acceleration eases and the movement stays constant. But even once the speed is constant, you still feel the accelerated motion—you feel yourself being pinned to the outer edge of the ride. cylindrical ride, that accelerated motion can warp space and time. It is here that Einstein connected the dots to suggest that gravity is the warping of space and time”.

If we take cylindrical carnival ride, this experiment was done in a gravity field.  As the carnival accelerates, due to acceleration gravity comes down and you will be pinned to the outer edge.

Can we take this experiment for Earth.  If this is true, Moon is also rotating with lot of speed why space is not warping.   Here it is not comparing masses but warping of space time only.

If the acceleration is the only reason, then both are spinning against their axis with almost similar speed.

Science developed a lot, there is every need to rethink cylindrical carnival example.

Energy in the space time curves the masses equally, whether it is Earth, Moon, Mars or Jupiter or any other mass equally.  It puts them in inertial position.

As per Einstein, if cylindrical carnival example is true then both Earth and Moon must have similar gravity fields.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 29/09/2019 18:18:13
Yet another long post that didn't answer my question.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 02/10/2019 14:46:44
In case if it is a gas giant, it is spread in a wide area and more particles are exposed to energy, resulting in curvature.  Though energy is weak particles gets into its grip.

So what you're saying is that it depends on the density of the planet, is that right?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 02/10/2019 15:35:08
Collected from KipThorne’s lecture:
“Generalrelativity is Einstein’s law of gravity, his explanation of that fundamental force which holds us to the surface of the Earth. Gravity, Einstein asserted, is caused by a warping of space and time or, in a language we physicists prefer, by a warping of space time. The Earth’s matter produces the warpage, and that warpage in turn is manifest by gravity’s inward tug, toward the Earth’s center. The inward tug is not the only manifestation of space time warpage; the warpage is much richer than that. As we shall see, it curves space, it slows the flow of time, and it drags space into tornado-like motions—at least that is what Einstein’s general relativity predicts”

It’s a great speech indeed.

However the basic question of “what exactly is warping” and how it is being done is still a big question.

Ok suppose that it is Earth’s matter then Moon is also having same matter only.  Why only Earth’s matter is warping and why not Moon.

In case, let us assume that if cylindrical carnival “that accelerated motion” warps the space time.  Both Earth and Moon are spinning against their axis with almost similar speed.

If matter warps the space time, whatever size it may, it must warp similarly.  Here it is not so correct to go “inverse square law”, which was almost ruled out by Einstein.

Science developed a lot, cylindrical carnival ride or matter are only limited arena, there is every need to expand our thinking to different other options.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 02/10/2019 16:31:01

Then what do you propose is the relationship between density and distance from the Sun? Eris is much further from the Sun than Neptune is (67.74 AU vs. 30.11 AU), yet it has a much higher density (2.52 g/cc vs.1.638 g/cc).

Ok suppose that it is Earth’s matter then Moon is also having same matter only.  Why only Earth’s matter is warping and why not Moon.

The Moon is warping space-time.

Both Earth and Moon are spinning against their axis with almost similar speed.

No they aren't. The Earth spins much faster than the Moon does.

In case, let us assume that if cylindrical carnival “that accelerated motion” warps the space time.

The spin of an object can warp space-time (this is called frame dragging), but a non-spinning object will warp space-time as well.

If matter warps the space time, whatever size it may, it must warp similarly.

What does that mean, exactly?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 02/10/2019 17:27:17
Quote from: pasala on Today at 14:46:44

Then what do you propose is the relationship between density and distance from the Sun? Eris is much further from the Sun than Neptune is (67.74 AU vs. 30.11 AU), yet it has a much higher density (2.52 g/cc vs.1.638 g/cc).
I thought that you are following me.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 02/10/2019 17:30:48
Ok suppose that it is Earth’s matter then Moon is also having same matter only.  Why only Earth’s matter is warping and why not Moon.

The Moon is warping space-time.

Quote from: pasala on Today at 15:35:08

Both Earth and Moon are spinning against their axis with almost similar speed.

No they aren't. The Earth spins much faster than the Moon does.

Quote from: pasala on Today at 15:35:08

In case, let us assume that if cylindrical carnival “that accelerated motion” warps the space time.

The spin of an object can warp space-time (this is called frame dragging), but a non-spinning object will warp space-time as well.

Quote from: pasala on Today at 15:35:08

If matter warps the space time, whatever size it may, it must warp similarly.

What does that mean, exactly?
I had used words probable or almost but not exact
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 12/10/2019 18:03:43
Quote from: pasala on 02/10/2019 15:35:08

In case, let us assume that if cylindrical carnival “that accelerated motion” warps the space time.

The spin of an object can warp space-time (this is called frame dragging), but a non-spinning object will warp space-time as well.
"In space, it is possible to create "artificial gravity" by spinning your spacecraft or space station. When the station spins, centrifugal force acts to pull the inhabitants to the outside. This process could be used to simulate gravity. It wouldn't be exactly the same, though, because large Coriolis forces would also be present, and things would fall in curves instead of straight lines".

Well, it is surprise, how a space station, by spinning on its axis creates Gravity.

I think for this theory, cylindrical carnival ride example of Einstein is base:
“To extend this further, let’s imagine a cylindrical carnival ride where you and your fellow passengers are pinned to the outer surface. The cylinder is rotated faster and faster until the acceleration eases and the movement stays constant. But even once the speed is constant, you still feel the accelerated motion—you feel yourself being pinned to the outer edge of the ride. cylindrical ride, that accelerated motion can warp space and time. It is here that Einstein connected the dots to suggest that gravity is the warping of space and time”.

First of all we have to remember that things on Earth are different, there is  strong Gravity.

When a cylindrical carnival is rotated, the passengers are pinned to the edges.  Here we are forgetting one important point that:

“Gravity is equal to acceleration”.

For the person at the center, there is no acceleration at all.  Whereas the person at the edges travels full circumference.  As the carnival picks up, Gravity weakens.  The person, say ‘X’, is now gravity free.  Now he carries only original Mass weight and due to air and other forces, he will be moved to the edges and warped at the edges.

The  relevance to the carnival ride example is Earth.  It is true that Earth is spinning against its axis with lot of speed.  So, Einstein might have thought that similarly things at the edges of the carnival are being warped.  But he forgot his own theory that “Gravity is equal to acceleration”.

If this is true:

“In 1632, even before Newton published his now-famous work, Galileo Galilei wrote about the relative motion of objects familiar in his time: ships. If you are in a closed room on a ship sailing at a constant speed and the ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as they would on land. There’s no physical experiment you could conduct to tell whether you’re moving or stationary (assuming you’re not peeking out of a porthole). This is the core idea behind relativity, and is the same reason why we don’t feel our planet’s movement around the sun, or our solar system’s movement through the galaxy.

Is there any physical experiment you could do within the confines of your spaceship to tell whether you really were accelerating through space (assuming there were no windows to look out from), or if, instead, you were inside a spaceship stationary on the surface of Earth? Einstein said no—just as Galileo imagined the in distinguishability between a person inside a smooth-sailing ship (confined without windows) and a person on land, Einstein realised that the effects of acceleration and gravity were indistinguishable too”.

“This is called the equivalence principle”,

If the spinning alone is responsible for warping than Galileo’s idea must be wrong and if you are in a closed room of a ship, one must be free from Gravity.  But there is Gravity.  The person inside a closed room, if the ride is smooth will not be in a position to distinguish in between in a closed room and on Earth.

Einstein extended this to Spaceship.  If you are in a spaceship and if it is accelerating through space, you will not be in a position distinguish, on Earth to cabin of spaceship.

Basic idea is that, in distinguishability, closed room of a ship, cabin of space ship to Earth.  Things continued to be same.

What this indistinguishability tells us, Gravity can be packed.  In a closed room of a ship Gravity is packed.  Inside the spaceship also Gravity is packed.

The difference is that travelling from Gravity to Non-gravity area.  When the spaceship started accelerating through space, inside the spaceship gravity is packed.  When the spaceship reaches, non-gravity area, slowly gravity disappears.

Thing that is present on Earth is not there in space.  Even if you pack it, it is moving out.

So, warped space time is present on the Earth.

This is of course not created due to spinning of Earth,. It is already created and present in the space surrounding Earth, which can be packed or moved.

Suppose if it is on Moon, weak gravity and thus your spaceship can only pack weak gravity.

The space station or space craft is already in inertial position.  There is strong curvature against the space station.  But it is not being warped.

If we rotate the space station or space craft, curvature weakens, mass gains weight.  Since gravity is equal to acceleration.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 10/11/2019 18:02:56
“This, in a nutshell, then, is the General Theory of Relativity, and its central premise is that the curvature of space-time is directly determined by the distribution of matter and energy contained within it. What complicates things, however, is that the distribution of matter and energy is in turn governed by the curvature of space, leading to a feedback loop and a lot of very complex mathematics. Thus, the presence of mass/energy determines the geometry of space, and the geometry of space determines the motion of mass/energy”.

Well, here I need not reiterate that curvature of space time is directly determined by the distribution of matter and energy.   So, curvature of space time is directly determined by the mass/energy.  Since,  mass is equated with energy, I would like to take energy only.  It is true that there is strong curvature against Earth.

Naturally, in other words there is strong energy base on this Earth which I termed it as Potential Energy which is aiding curvature of space time.

Gravitation is not an attractive force between masses, but a pressure force exerted by spacetime on closed volumes that tends to bring them closer to each other.

Well, it is proved that all closed volumes such as elementary particles Proton(s), neutron(s) and electron(s) pushes their surroundings and produces convex curvature of spacetime.  In fact, this curvature once again depends on availability of energy in the space.  In a 2d space time no elementary particle can curve the space time around them.

When a uranium-235 atom absorbs a neutron and fissions into two new atoms, it releases three new neutrons and some binding energy.  All the elementary particles that ever is released due to nuclear fission start curving space time around them.  This is of course an instant process.

Sun is also producing most of its energy through nuclear fusion only.  Suppose in a particular time, ‘T1’ total energy produced/present in the solar system is ‘X’.  On the very next minute of ‘T1’ energy produced by Sun is just additional only.  It only maintaining existing energy base in the solar system.  Each time no energy base is created.  “Energy is neither created nor destroyed, it only transforms from one form to other”.  This additional energy, pushes existing energy and start moving out.

Suppose, let us presume that if Sun suddenly stops producing additional energy or disappears, what happens.  Additional energy only creates pressure/force against existing energy and energy is having an important quality of moving from high to low.  When there is no pressure/force light weakens instantly and it never takes 8 minutes.  This is like electricity, whatever the distance may, if we switch off, light goes instantly.

However energy spread in the solar system never disappears instantly.  Flow of energy from high to low continues and it takes lot of period.  Meanwhile mass continues to curve the space time.  As the additional energy is stopped, flow/movement of energy is stopped and thus rotation and revolution.  Slowly planets gets into inertial position.  In the outer region, energy weakens further and thus curvature and mass gains weight and start moving out.

There is energy base on this Earth which is aiding curvature.  When an atom is split, elementary particles freed there from, curves space time around them.  As chain reaction continues, more particles and energy is released into space. All the elementary particles curves the space time and thus radiation increases.

Energy produced or released due to nuclear fission on Earth is just additional only.  Similarly as is done in Sun’s atmosphere, this additional energy on Earth due to nuclear fusion, creates pressure on existing  energy.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/12/2019 16:46:08
If this is true, then:
"According to Einstein, your weight on earth is due to the fact that your body is traveling through warped spacetime”

Galileo Galilei wrote about the relative motion of objects familiar in his time:

"If you are in a closed room on a ship sailing at a constant speed and the ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as they would on land. There’s no physical experiment you could conduct to tell whether you’re moving or stationary (assuming you’re not peeking out of a porthole). This is the core idea behind relativity, and is the same reason why we don’t feel our planet’s movement around the sun, or our solar system’s movement through the galaxy"
.
If our weight on Earth is due to the fact that our body is travelling through space time, then Galileo's "closed room" theory must be wrong.  In a closed room, you are not being exposed to space time directly.    But it is not happening so.

Here effects of acceleration and Gravity is different.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 08/12/2019 17:43:37
In a closed room, you are not being exposed to space time directly.

Surely you're not arguing that there is no space-time in a closed room...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Halc on 08/12/2019 19:08:17
"According to Einstein, your weight on earth is due to the fact that your body is traveling through warped spacetime”
Einstein did not say that. Nothing travels through spacetime (which is more something Minkowski said). An object has a worldline through spacetime, and weight is an artifact of a worldline that does not follow a geodesic, resulting in a locally curved (accelerated) line.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: puppypower on 11/12/2019 11:33:27
If gravity is a force, that what sort of energy is released when gravitational potential decreases? The EM force, the weak and strong nuclear forces all give off photons when potential lowers. so what is the type of photon given off by lowering gravitational potential energy?

We can see a transfer of energy when gravity acts and lowers potential, such as kinetic energy and angular momentum. So what is the nature of these photons? If there are no photons, it is really a force? The angular momentum of a spiral galaxy could be explained a being driven by the exothermic output of its gravity lowering via star and black hole formation.

What we also observe is space-time contracts, as the gravitational potential lowers. As mass gets denser and denser,lowering the gravitational potential, space-time contracts, up to the limit of the black hole.

Does this means black holes are at lowest gravitational potential, or is the energy given off by gravity, increasing the potential of space-time around a black hole? The former implies an equivalent of space-time and gravity, while the latter implies opposite aspects of the same potential, like a gravitational version of plus and minus. This would then suggest dark energy is an exothermic output from gravity.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 11/12/2019 14:59:27
If gravity is a force, that what sort of energy is released when gravitational potential decreases?

It depends on the specifics. In some cases, that energy is released in the form of gravitational waves (like in merging black holes). In other cases, it would just be a transformation of gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy (such as when you drop a stone).

The EM force, the weak and strong nuclear forces all give off photons when potential lowers.

The photon is uniquely associated with the electromagnetic force. If an excited atomic nucleus releases a photon when it goes back into a relaxed state, that is because the constituent nucleons contain electric charges. The strong force is always associated with electric charge because all quarks are charged.

so what is the type of photon given off by lowering gravitational potential energy?

Photons don't come in different types (except for certain properties such as wavelength, but that's true of all particles anyway).

If there are no photons, it is really a force?

Yes. The presence or absence of photons has nothing to do with whether there is a force present or not.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/12/2019 08:07:03
"According to Einstein, your weight on earth is due to the fact that your body is traveling through warped spacetime”
Einstein did not say that. Nothing travels through spacetime (which is more something Minkowski said). An object has a worldline through spacetime, and weight is an artifact of a worldline that does not follow a geodesic, resulting in a locally curved (accelerated) line.
"Matter tells space how to curve, and curved space tells matter how to move".
Ok, let us think "what exactly is the medium" that is being curved by the mass and that tells mass to move.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 26/01/2020 13:22:44
WHAT EXACTLY IS GRAVITY:
Gravity, even today, a big puzzle.  Newton’s Inverse square law is very clear, for that it is being used in all important practical applications. He claimed that any two masses in the Universe, no matter where they were located or how far apart they were, would instantaneously attract one another via a mutual force known as gravity. The more massive each mass was, the greater the force, and farther away they were (squared), the lesser the force.

The concept of action-at-a-distance, intellectuals did not accept it, how objects located half-a-Universe away suddenly and instantly exert a force on one another?.  How could they interact from so far away without anything intervening to mediate it?.

At that time science was not so developed and the identification of existence of Gravity itself is far reaching.  Some of the doubts hanged in the mind of Newton also.

In the words of Newton:
“Gravity must be caused by an agent acting constantly according to certain laws; but whether this agent be material or immaterial, I have left to the consideration of my readers”.

Gravity is most accurately described by the general theory of relativity which describes gravity not as a force, but as a consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass.

As per Einstein Space is no longer flat as assumed by Newton, it can be pulled, pushed and warped by matter.  As per Einstein space is working like fabric.  Ok, but what exactly this fabric consists of and how this fabric came into existence.  As per Descartes Space is filled with matter.  Suppose if it is matter, space time cannot be pulled or pushed and mass cannot curve it.

As per Einstein, curvature mainly depends on some of the parameters:
“Tμν is a mathematical object (a tensor to be precise) which describes material bodies. In that mathematical object, there are some parameters such as the density, the momentum, mass-energy... etc. So it is those parameters that determine 'how much space-time curvature' is around a body. And one of the parameters is of course energy. Therefore, energy do bend space-time”.

The Einstein Field Equation:
Gμν = 8πTμν
On the left side of the equation is a tensor describing the geometry of spacetime — the gravitational field. On the right is the tensor describing the matter and energy density — the source of the gravitational field. The equation shows that spacetime geometry equals mass-energy density when adjusted with the proper units and numerical constants

So, space is filled with mass/energy.  Since mass is equated with energy, space is completely filled with energy.

If you want to calculate what the space time curvature at any point in space, General Relativity allows you to do it, but you need to know a few things. You need to know the locations, magnitudes, and distributions of all the masses in the Universe, just as Newton demanded. But you also need information about:
•   how those masses are moving and how they have moved over time,
•   how all other (non-mass) forms of energy are distributed,
•   how the object you’re observing/measuring from is moving in a changing gravitational field,
•   and how the spatial curvature is changing over time.
Only with those additional pieces of information can you compute how space is curved for you at a particular location in space and time.

Ok, let us see trampoline analogy.
“Consider a very large trampoline with nothing on the trampoline pad and trampoline pad remains flat and parallel to the ground. Now place a heavy bowling ball at the center of the trampoline pad. The center of the pad will sag downward. If we assume the analogy that the trampoline pad represents space-time, and the bowling ball a gravitating object, then the sagging of the trampoline represents the curvature of space time under the influence of gravity”.

Here we are all concentrating on bowling ball, and the sagging of trampoline pad. Ok, it is one of the best examples that tells how matter curves space time.  But we are forgetting, what exactly this trampoline is and the thing by which it is made up of.  I am sure that space time fabric is not from nothing.  Suppose if it so, then matter cannot curve the space.  There is something, which is acting as space fabric.   It is of course, matter blind.
In parameters set by Einstein, to measure how much curvature around a body, he is very much clear, it is the density, momentum of mass/energy that precisely decides curvature.
Suppose if we place a satellite in the space.  There is huge potential energy and it moves towards the satellite and curves the space time around it.  This curvature once again depends on density of mass/energy within that area.

What is the source for this space fabric
Let us see our solar system, Sun is important source of energy and it is pumping huge energy.  This energy is spread up to our solar system only.  In between two solar systems, there is no any source of energy and thus it is empty.

In our solar system space is completely filled with huge potential energy. A photon released from Sun never travels directly.  Space is not empty.  A photon freed, pushes existing photons, a chain action.  It follows first in, first out method.  There is a flow/transfer of energy and it continues.  In case, for any reason, if the Sun stops pumping energy, the photon released fails to push the chain and thus it weakens instantly.

General relativity:
Einstein’s imagination gave birth to general relativity’s core idea as he gazed out his office window while he was supposed to be evaluating patents. “All of a sudden I was struck by a thought,” Einstein later said. “If a person falls freely, he will certainly not feel his own weight.”

This is great idea.  When the person is at the top of the building, there is Gravity.  When he comes down to the Earth there is Gravity.  In the middle, while falling freely, there is no Gravity at all.  There is something in the space which is causing Gravity, fails, while falling freely.

It is true that there is strong curvature against Earth.  This curvature once again depends on the distribution of mass/energy within that area.  So, in other words there is strong potential energy.

As long as the person is in inertial position there is strong gravity.  Potential energy, gripped him by curving the space time around him.   When he accelerates downwards, slowly curvature weakens. In other words gravity weakens.

01 It is true that Earth is spinning with lot of speed, still curvature is intact.
02 When Gravity is equated to acceleration, why it is not working in case of Earth.
03 For that almost all the planets are having Gravity and they are accelerating/spinning against their own axis.  Why Gravity is not equal to acceleration here.
04 If we place a satellite in the space, it curves the space around it.
05 It will not rotate against its axis, instead it will start rotating against gravity of Earth.
If the satellite start rotating against its axis, it will turn out as a full pledge planet.  But it must  have certain amount of shield/protection, otherwise, due to acceleration curvature weakens and it will start moving out.  Almost all the planets are having similar protection, otherwise curvature will be eroded.

EQUIVALENCE PRINCIPLE:
“In 1632, even before Newton published his now-famous work, Galileo Galilei wrote about the relative motion of objects familiar in his time: ships. If you are in a closed room on a ship sailing at a constant speed and the ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as they would on land. There’s no physical experiment you could conduct to tell whether you’re moving or stationary (assuming you’re not peeking out of a porthole). is there any physical experiment you could do within the confines of your spaceship to tell whether you really were accelerating through space (assuming there were no windows to look out from), or if, instead, you were inside a spaceship stationary on the surface of Earth? Einstein said no—just as Galileo imagined the in distinguishability between a person inside a smooth-sailing ship (confined without windows) and a person on land, Einstein realised that the effects of acceleration and gravity were indistinguishable too”.

It is great observation, indeed, by Galileo.
01  If you are in a closed room, sailing in a ship, one cannot tell, you are moving or stationary on land.
02  If the space ship is accelerating through space, for the space ship, Gravity is equal to acceleration.
03 For the people within cabin, they may not be in a position to tell, whether they are accelerating through space or in inertial position on ground..
04  If Gravity is due to curvature alone, one’s the cabin is closed, Gravity must come down dramatically.  But it is not happening so.
05  So, Curvature/Gravity can be packed and moved.  There is Gravity within this atmosphere.
06   So, hereby we can conclude that Curvature which is nothing but Energy, is already present with lot of pressure, can be packed or moved.
08 If we create vacuum, space cabin, curvature is not lost.  By creating vacuum, we are removing air and particles there in.  But we cannot remove energy.  So energy still curves the space time.
09 Suppose, if the space ship is in space, if we close the cabin of the space ship, as there is no Gravity, it packs the same.

This is the reason, there is in distinguishability between a person inside a smooth sailing ship and one in inertial position on Earth.  The cabin of space ship is locked in a gravity field and the cabin is filled with potential energy, nothing but gravity.  For the space ship gravity is equal to acceleration.

But for the people inside the cabin, gravity is not equal to acceleration, but it is equal to windows

HOW GRAVITY WORKS:
When the apple fell on the ground, Newton thought Earth is pulling things towards it.  As per Newton every mass in the universe attract every other mass and named this attraction as “Gravity”.

By the dawn of 20th century, science developed a lot.  For Einstein, patent office thought, “free fall”, a game changer.   If a person dives from highest place, temporarily he will transform away from Gravity.  This is one of the important effects of gravity.  Einstein equated acceleration to Gravity.

As per General theory of relativity, gravity is not a force, but as a consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass/energy.  To decide, curvature at a place, there are some parameters such as the density, the momentum, mass-energy... etc.   So, it is those parameters that determine 'how much space-time curvature' is around a body.  And one of the parameters is of course energy. Therefore, energy do bend space-time.

So, as per General relativity energy at a place decides curvature. Finally, it is the energy working as medium or agent.
So, here there is strong potential energy stored on this Earth.   We are sending rockets to space.  Space time around them is also curved, but there is no Gravity.

Suppose if we say that there is huge potential energy stored on this Earth, there must be a source.  Sun is the important source, however there are limitations and it comes in day time only.  It is true that energy moves from high to low and thus unless there is protection, total energy moves away during night time.  But there is protection, which is not allowing energy entering our atmosphere to escape that much easily.

Due to curvature, radiation is raising and water particles are raising against gravity.  Water particles are divided further and further and becomes so light that they move against gravity.  If the curvature increases, water particles are pushed to farther height.  These particles joins other particles, becomes heavier and start accelerating towards earth, creating pressure on energy.

Gravity on any planet mainly depends on potential energy stored therein.  It is true that all the masses curves the space time around them.  However Gravity mainly depends on the strength of frame and potential energy stored there in.

As long as the apple is in the tree, potential energy developed a strong curvature.  It is true that Gravity is matter blind.  There is strong curvature against Earth.  Both apple and Earth have their own curvatures.  Unless there is pressure/force both will remain in their places.  Space is exerting pressure/force against both of them.  However curvature of Earth and apple tug on each other and exerts opposite force.  Earth is a huge mass when compared to apple, there is flow of energy towards Earth, a part of which bents towards curvature of apple, creates pressure and pushes it towards Earth.

EFFECTS OF GRAVITY:
Extra-ordinary brain of Einstein wonderfully predicted some of the important effects of Gravity such as light bending, time dilation etc.

The Einstein Field Equation:
Gμν = 8πTμν
On the left side of the equation is a tensor describing the geometry of space time — the gravitational field. On the right is the tensor describing the matter and energy density — the source of the gravitational field.
By this, we can conclude that there is huge potential energy stored on this Earth.  This potential energy had its influence on things done by us, research etc.

For that it is true that there is huge potential energy in our solar system also. But it is not created within short time.  Whatever energy being pumped by Sun, at present is just additional only.  Additional energy simply charges the existing energy and thus light.

Even the curved space time is nothing but potential energy only.  There is huge potential energy on this Earth.  Sun energy entering our Earth’s space, is simply additional only and it charges existing energy and thus light.  On Moon, curved space time or Gravity is weak and in other words potential energy.  Additional energy is of the same, but potential energy is weak.

Since energy density is high on Earth additional energy creates wonders.  In case, let us assume that there is no potential energy on Earth, if an atom bomb is exploded, additional energy generated thereby, moves out unabated, no lighting, waves.  Though additional energy, through atomic explosion is small, potential energy in the space time plays key role.

Even in the case of electric bulb, torch light, we are of the opinion that total energy is coming from the source.  But it is untrue.  Even before, switching on electric bulb, there is strong curvature against the space time of the bulb.  Small amount of energy, additional, released there from pushes the existing energy, in other words, charges it and thus light.  It is untrue to say that total energy is coming from source.

1) SOURCES OF ADDITIONAL ENERGY ON EARTH:
A) SUN:
Sun is one of the important sources of additional energy to Earth.  Sun energy is simply, not complete, and it is only additional only.  There is strong curvature against Earth’s space time, in other words energy density.  Sun energy entering our Earth’s space time, pushes existing energy, in other words charges it, resulting in light.

B) ATOMIC EXPLOSION:
Whatever appearing is deceptive.    Energy released due to atomic explosion is additional energy only.   As long as the atomic bomb is in original position, keeping so much energy how it is stable.   Total energy is coming out only after explosion.  If the space is empty, additional energy cannot do wonders.  Space time of the each and every atom is curved, in other words strong energy density.  When an atom is split and energy is released, it only pushes existing Potential energy.  Here speed of light, C2 has no role.  Yield of energy mainly depends on:
1)  Density of energy in the space time.
2)  Additional energy released there from.

B)  LIGHT:
If we switch on a torchlight, do total energy coming from the torch light.   What about the huge potential energy present in the space.   Energy coming or released from torch light is very, very small.  It pushes and charges existing energy, which is known as light.  Suppose if the space time is empty, additional energy moves out, no chance of charging and thus light.

Even in the case of electric bulb also, it is one of the important sources of additional energy.  Total energy is not coming from the bulb.  Here, the basic difference is, we are drawing electrons from the space time at one place and releasing them at another place, though balance is nil, it is also additional energy only.
C)   FIRE:
Fire is no more mysterious one.  It is also one of the important sources of additional energy.

WORKING OF SOLAR SYSTEM:
At present we are of the opinion that Gravity is keeping planets in order.  We have already discussed that space fabric is nothing but potential energy stored in the Solar System.

How this potential energy is created and stored in the solar system.  Without this energy, space fabric is immaterial.  It is true that “Energy is neither created nor destroyed” it can only be modified into one form to other.  Each second energy generated by Sun is just additional only.  In fact Sun has no capacity to create this space fabric.
The atmosphere of the Sun consists of 3 layers the photosphere, the chromosphere and the corona. Energy produced from Sun is transferred from the core through the successive layers.  I propose that these layers extend up to the end of Solar system and energy transfers from one layer to the other and each subsequent layer is weakest when compared to previous one.

Planets exist within these layers and no planet crosses or moves to other layer.

Suppose if we place a satellite in the space.  Energy curves the space time around it and throws it into inertial position.  Energy within these layers are moving and it pushes it.   There is a flow of energy towards Earth and it drags the satellite towards Earth.  However energy flowing in the layer pushes it and it start going round the Earth continuously.

Yours
Psreddy
.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: puppypower on 28/01/2020 13:58:49
Friends,

It is true that science developed a lot.  We know several things and we are able to carry out research in space and we are sending rockets to other planets.

I think there is every need to revise the present existing theories.  I don't think it is so good, going by ants perception,  trampoline  analogy.  Ok, they may be correct, let us discuss to have "What exactly is gravity".

Yours
Psreddy

Gravity appears to be governed by two sets of principles, at the same time; Einstein and Newtonian. In terms of Einstein and General Relativity, as mass accumulates, space-time curves and contracts. Time slows and distances contract in space-time. The black hole, for example, has distance contracted to a point and time has essentially stopped.

In terms of Newtonian, gravity induces weight and pressure. As the weight and pressures increase distances between materials get smaller, in parallel to GR. However, the time variable in the Newtonian aspect speeds up instead of slows. This is evident in matter vibrations and transitional states and the frequency of energy output. In the sun, for example, the core pressure causes nuclear fusion and transitions, with the release of high frequency energy.  This result is the time element in the Newtonian and Einstein each go in opposite directions.

There are two distinct time aspects with respect to gravity.  This makes sense since gravity is a force, while acceleration due to the gravitational force, has the units of d/t/t or one part distance and two parts time.

In terms of an application, a black hole will have space-time contracted to near a point-instant. This is the Einstein leg. The Newtonian leg is connected to the compressed matter and energy transitions close to zero time or extreme frequency  In other words, the black hole should be internally generating exotic particle states similar to early universe. This is unexplored by science, since they do not seem to understand that gravity displays two opposite time vectors.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Origin on 28/01/2020 22:05:46
However, the time variable in the Newtonian aspect speeds up instead of slows. This is evident in matter vibrations and transitional states and the frequency of energy output. In the sun, for example, the core pressure causes nuclear fusion and transitions, with the release of high frequency energy.  This result is the time element in the Newtonian and Einstein each go in opposite directions.
Are seriously proposing that a hot and dense object will experience time more rapidly than a cool less dense object?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 02/02/2020 17:38:26
Ok, let us keep aside time dilation and distance contraction, since these are all effects of Gravity.

As per Newton Gravity creates or causes weight and pressure and you have given best example of Sun.  Here core is responsible in creating pressure/force and thus nuclear fusion, release of huge energy.

As per Einstein as mass accumulates, it curves the space time around it.

A Black hole exhibits strong Gravity field whether this is due to compression of matter and energy or due to the curvature of space.  In all these cases, it is possible due to gravity field only.   There is strong Gravity field in the Sun’s core and also space time of the black hole

If a sheet of paper is bent, on one side it appears that it is due to pressure and on the other side appears as attraction.
.
So, here, we are all discussing Gravity’s impact, a force or a curvature.  How this curvature is created.  Without curvature, there is no gravity at all.  And in turn, without gravity there is no pressure or force.  So, these are all inter related to one another.  Matter curves the space time around it. And this curvature is the base for creation of gravity. Gravity in turn creates pressure/force on matter.

What Exactly is curvature:
During the time of Einstein, science developed a lot and thus predictions of Einstein are far superior.  Particle physics started playing key role.  Matter disturbing or curving the space around them drawn the attention of scientists.

“Gravity is most accurately described by the general theory of relativity which describes gravity not as a force, but as a consequence of the curvature of space time caused by the uneven distribution of mass”.

Now we are sending satellites into space, they are curving the space time around them, but there is no Gravity.

I think time has come to rethink what exactly this curvature is.
Gμν = 8πTμν
On the left side of the equation is a tensor describing the geometry of spacetime — the gravitational field. On the right is the tensor describing the matter and energy density — the source of the gravitational field. The equation shows that spacetime geometry equals mass-energy density when adjusted with the proper units and numerical constants.

This is the same energy density, causing or curving space time around Earth.  To decide, curvature at a place, there are some parameters such as the density, the momentum, mass-energy... etc.   So, it is those parameters that determine 'how much space-time curvature' is around a body.  And one of the parameters is of course energy.

There is strong energy density in and around black holes.  Since gravity is matter blind, in turn it creates pressure/force against matter.

Basic thing is, we are forgetting, how this energy density is created.  In a 2d space time no matter can curve the space time and thus it is flat.  So, even before, mass enters, there must be strong energy base.  When a huge mass is placed in space, since energy is of object oriented, it moves and  curves the space time around mass.

But we cannot take this as Gravity, since energy concentration in space is low.  Unless it is boosted, it simply fails to create pressure/force on objects.  It is true that Earth, apple, every object curves the space time around them.  Since Earth is a huge object, there is continuous flow of Energy.  A part of this, in and around apple bend towards apple and creates pressure and thus it comes down to Earth.

If the curvature alone is responsible for Gravity, our satellites must create Gravity and spin against their axis.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 05/02/2020 14:39:47
Friends,

It is true that science developed a lot.  We know several things and we are able to carry out research in space and we are sending rockets to other planets.

I think there is every need to revise the present existing theories.  I don't think it is so good, going by ants perception,  trampoline  analogy.  Ok, they may be correct, let us discuss to have "What exactly is gravity".

Yours
Psreddy

Gravity appears to be governed by two sets of principles, at the same time; Einstein and Newtonian. In terms of Einstein and General Relativity, as mass accumulates, space-time curves and contracts. Time slows and distances contract in space-time. The black hole, for example, has distance contracted to a point and time has essentially stopped.

In terms of Newtonian, gravity induces weight and pressure. As the weight and pressures increase distances between materials get smaller, in parallel to GR. However, the time variable in the Newtonian aspect speeds up instead of slows. This is evident in matter vibrations and transitional states and the frequency of energy output. In the sun, for example, the core pressure causes nuclear fusion and transitions, with the release of high frequency energy.  This result is the time element in the Newtonian and Einstein each go in opposite directions.

There are two distinct time aspects with respect to gravity.  This makes sense since gravity is a force, while acceleration due to the gravitational force, has the units of d/t/t or one part distance and two parts time.

In terms of an application, a black hole will have space-time contracted to near a point-instant. This is the Einstein leg. The Newtonian leg is connected to the compressed matter and energy transitions close to zero time or extreme frequency  In other words, the black hole should be internally generating exotic particle states similar to early universe. This is unexplored by science, since they do not seem to understand that gravity displays two opposite time vectors.

Actually, i had attempted to reconcile both the theories, but failed.

It is surprise to see, why these theories ends at black holes. We are all living in a strong gravity field, but no theory in exact terms defines or tells you, this is what exactly is gravity.  We knew, Einstein theories are far advanced and are proved to a great extent, still for all practical applications we are using Newton theories.

A curved space time is within our reach, living there, each and every second in its influence, but a black hole, an imaginary one.    But, event horizon or whether light escapes is a big topic, for that expansion or contraction of universe also goes long way.  It is not criticising.  Our technology is far limited and it is impossible for our rockets to reach black hole.  We don't know, how black holes came into existence,   or they generating exotic materials.

EINSTEIN GEOMETRY:
Gμν = 8πTμν
On the left side of the equation is a tensor describing the geometry of spacetime — the gravitational field. On the right is the tensor describing the matter and energy density — the source of the gravitational field. The equation shows that spacetime geometry equals mass-energy density when adjusted with the proper units and numerical constants.

It tells us that Gravitational field is nothing but matter and energy density.  However we don't accept that there is huge potential energy stored on our Earth.  In other words, when we say that there is no stored energy on this Earth, Einstein curvature is also wrong.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 21/02/2020 10:58:21
Gravity appears to be governed by two sets of principles, at the same time; Einstein and Newtonian. In terms of Einstein and General Relativity, as mass accumulates, space-time curves and contracts. Time slows and distances contract in space-time. The black hole, for example, has distance contracted to a point and time has essentially stopped.

In terms of Newtonian, gravity induces weight and pressure. As the weight and pressures increase distances between materials get smaller, in parallel to GR. However, the time variable in the Newtonian aspect speeds up instead of slows. This is evident in matter vibrations and transitional states and the frequency of energy output. In the sun, for example, the core pressure causes nuclear fusion and transitions, with the release of high frequency energy.  This result is the time element in the Newtonian and Einstein each go in opposite directions.

Please see that no theory, Newton or Einstein tells you, this is "what exactly is gravity".

Newton's inverse square law, applies, only when there is Gravity.  Earth and Moon attracts each other, only when there is Gravity.  How Gravity came into existence or method by which it is created, is ill defined or not at all touched.

Einstein's curvature of space time comes into existence or start applying only when there is Gravity.   Einstein's general theory of relativity explains gravity as a distortion of spacetime caused by the presence of matter or energy. A massive object generates a gravitational field by warping the geometry of the surrounding spacetime.

It never tells you how a massive object generates gravitational field.  Suppose,  there is strong gravitational field on Earth, it must tells us, how this gravitational field was created and how Earth warps the spacetime.  Leaving aside other things, it must tell, how this invisible force came into existence.

But, either of them never gives you or defines, in exact terms, what exactly is gravity.

These theories only describes the effects of Gravity.

Please try to understand the difference.

Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jerrygg38 on 22/02/2020 13:50:13
Kryptid said:
If you are claiming that explosions generate less energy further away from a gravitational field then you are criticizing Einstein because you are saying that E=mc2 is incorrect. No part of that equation depends upon the local strength of gravity.
GG: The atom bomb on the moon is interesting. It seems to me that the lower gravitational field and the lack of an atmosphere will produce less harm locally to the moon. More of the energy will radiate outward into space.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jerrygg38 on 22/02/2020 14:07:03
Parsala said
It never tells you how a massive object generates gravitational field.  Suppose,  there is strong gravitational field on Earth, it must tells us, how this gravitational field was created and how Earth warps the spacetime.  Leaving aside other things, it must tell, how this invisible force came into existence.
GG: That is the problem when we deal with four dimensional space time. Once we add another dimension we have a flow of energy between dimensions and a reaction from the fifth dimension. The fifth dimension causes our space time to curve. Einstein does good in showing the effects of gravity on his four dimensions. But he fails to understand that another dimension is necessary to explain gravity for what it is.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 22/02/2020 15:00:48
GG: The atom bomb on the moon is interesting. It seems to me that the lower gravitational field and the lack of an atmosphere will produce less harm locally to the moon. More of the energy will radiate outward into space.

That doesn't mean that the explosion contains less energy (which appears to be what Pasala is arguing).
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jerrygg38 on 23/02/2020 12:54:33
Kryptoid: That doesn't mean that the explosion contains less energy (which appears to be what Pasala is arguing).
GG: What you say is obvious. I was just wondering about the effect of the energy. If the bomb was below the surface when it exploded it should do more damage. If above the surface it will do less damage.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 23/02/2020 14:30:06
As per Einstein Space is no longer flat as assumed by Newton, it can be pulled, pushed and warped by matter.  Gravity is most accurately described by the general theory of relativity, which describes gravity not as a force, but as a consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass.

“Matter tells spacetime how to curve and curved space time tells matter how to move”.  This is the core of Einstein General theory of relativity. Gravity is highest where space time is most curved and vanishes where space is flat.

In Einstein General theory of relativity, curvature of space time plays key role.  If we place mass anywhere in the universe, it will curve the space time around it.

Einstein Field Equation:

Gμν        =  Geometry of spacetime, Gravitational field
8πTμν    =   The source of curvature/gravity field, matter and energy density.

So,
Gμν        =  8πTμν

Curvature of space time at a place is determined by the matter and energy density at that place.  Einstein has set certain parameters, the density, the momentum, mass/energy, which determine curvature at a place.

Ok, let us take our Earth.  It is a huge mass and it curved the space time around it.  In other words there is strong curvature/gravity against space time of Earth.

So, we can equate this curvature/gravity with density of Energy.  Suppose, if there is no energy density at a particular place, space time turns out flat.

But at present we are of the opinion that Sun energy is the only source to Earth and there is no potential energy

If there is no energy density in our solar system, how mass is curving the space time.

It is true and known fact that there is strong Gravity against Earth and it is appearing before us and we are practically experiencing it.

In case, if our thinking is correct, no energy density, Gravity must be created or space time is curved by mass during day time, when Sun energy reaches us and must vanish or turn into flat during night time.

This is not happening so, there is Gravity during night time also.

Is our thinking wrong or Einstein wrong?.

Important point on Curvature of Spacetime:

1.  As per Einstein if we place mass anywhere in the universe, it will curve the space time.  Ok, here in his equations, he equated Gravity field with energy density.  So, without potential energy at a place, no mass will curve the space time, in other words Gravity.

2.  No mass will curve the space time in empty or flat space time.

3.  Finally, all masses will curve space time, within specific area of solar system, where potential energy is pooled up.

4.  This is the reason, if an asteroid, making its journey, never stops, until it enters solar system. Energy density curves the space time and slows down its movement.  In case, if the asteroid is accelerating with lot of speed, slows down, crosses the solar system and makes its journey, till it reaches another solar system.

Gravity, equation with acceleration:

Einstein’s imagination gave birth to general relativity’s core idea as he gazed out his office window while he was supposed to be evaluating patents. “All of a sudden I was struck by a thought,” Einstein later said. “If a person falls freely, he will certainly not feel his own weight.”

01  Gravity on Earth is equated to 9.81 (m/s^2)
02  Earth is rotating 460 meters per second.

It is true that it is several times higher, however, how Gravity or curvature against Earth is intact.

Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 23/02/2020 16:21:59
GG: The atom bomb on the moon is interesting. It seems to me that the lower gravitational field and the lack of an atmosphere will produce less harm locally to the moon. More of the energy will radiate outward into space.

That doesn't mean that the explosion contains less energy (which appears to be what Pasala is arguing).
No, potential energy stored within atom bomb never changes, whether it is on Earth or Moon or in space in between.  Total output mainly depends on energy density in the space time of the bomb.  As the density increases curvature increases, small amount of energy freed, pushes and charges the outside energy, resulting raise of radiation.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 23/02/2020 17:42:27
No, potential energy stored within atom bomb never changes, whether it is on Earth or Moon or in space in between.  Total output mainly depends on energy density in the space time of the bomb.  As the density increases curvature increases, small amount of energy freed, pushes and charges the outside energy, resulting raise of radiation.

I certainly seem to recall you arguing that an atomic bomb's power would be less on the Moon than on Earth...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 01/03/2020 17:10:07
Mr Kryptid

Let me tell in detail since Gravity is having roots in all of them:

In a nuclear explosion there is  rapid release of energy from a high-speed nuclear reaction. The "yield" of a nuclear weapon is a measure of the amount of explosive energy it can produce. Thus, a 1 kiloton nuclear weapon is one which produces the same amount of energy in an explosion as does 1 kiloton (1,000 tons) of TNT. Similarly, a 1 megaton weapon would have the energy equivalent of 1 million tons of TNT.

According to the Union of Concerned Scientists, a nuclear bomb needs about 33 pounds (15 kilograms) of enriched uranium to be operational.

When chain reaction starts, total energy is multiplying.  At present we are of the opinion that total energy is coming from the atom bomb only.  If it is true, where and how huge energy is stored in a fissile material.  If the total energy is from the fissile material, how it is stable in normal condition.   Whenever I go by these theories, these things bothers my mind.

Ok, before going deep, let me tell you one simple incident that happened in my high school studies.  One day teacher performed a simple experiment.  He lighted a candle, closed it by a  glass and when the candle put off, he started explaining how things need oxygen to burn.  Immediately, I questioned, why don’t you think that the glass is “obstructing” something.  Nobody listened to me.

For Einstein, space is no longer flat as assumed by Newton, but it can be pulled, pushed and warped by matter.  It is rather immaterial if we say that matter curves the space time.  There is a medium by which matter is pulling, pushing space time.  For that Einstein is very clear in his math’s, he equated space time curvature or Gravity to Energy density.

But, at present we are of the opinion that there is no potential energy or energy density on Earth.  Ok, then how the matter is curving the space time.  In case, if Sun energy is alone responsible then space is curved during day time and flat during night time.   But it is not happening so. There is strong Gravity at all times.

The Yield from a nuclear weapon mainly depends on:
01  The quantity of fissile material used or the quantity of potential energy released.
02  The potential energy or energy density in the space time.
03  Rapid release of energy or the speed with which the energy is freed.  Since, if the process slows down, space time absorbs the shock and neutralizes it.

Ok, if an atom bomb is detonated total energy packed there in is freed.  In normal conditions, it cannot do wonders.   Now, space time start playing important role.  There is strong Gravity or curvature on our Earth.  Since total energy is released within short time, it pushes the existing energy and try to make room.  In other words it is an additional energy into the space time.  It charges the existing energy, resulting raise of radiation.  It is true that Gravity is matter blind.  So, energy density against the space time of Earth is high.  Most of the charge is passed on to the Earth.

If the same bomb is detonated on Moon.  Here Gravity or curvature or energy density is weak.  Though same amount of energy freed, energy density in the space time is weak.  Weak charge is passed on to the surface.  Since Gravity or curvature of space time is 1/6th, naturally yield also.

Ok, if the same bomb is detonated in space, outside Earth’s atmosphere.  Here energy is not influenced by any matter.  Energy is of at free state.  It curves the space time of the bomb. But there is no gravity, in other words strong density of energy.  Energy released by atom bomb, pushes or charges energy in the space time.  Since density of energy in the space time  is weak, effect is weak.  It moves in all directions equally.

Ok, let us cross our solar system, here there is no source of energy and thus there is no potential energy.  This is perfect vacuum.  It is impossible to detonate an atom bomb.  When a uranium-235 absorbs a neutron and splits, whatever energy freed moves out unabated.  There is no chain reaction and radiation.

If a nuclear weapon is exploded in a vacuum-i. e., in space-the complexion of weapon effects changes drastically.  First, in the absence of an atmosphere, blast disappears completely. Second, thermal radiation, as usually defined, also disappears.

In a vacuum, energy density is weak.  When an atom bomb  is detonated, energy freed, fails to charge the outside energy.  There is no radiation and thus chain reaction.  The glass used is not allowing free movement of outside energy.

Suppose, you have not created vacuum, but covered it by glass as is done in the case of fire.  In                               “in distinguishability”, it is clear, within cabin there is no change of gravity and it is not equal to acceleration.  But for the space ship Gravity is equal to acceleration.  Here it is clear that Gravity can be packed.  So, there is strong potential energy packed within the chamber.  But glass is not allowing free movement of energy.  So, energy density, space time of the bomb helps in raise of radiation.  However it is weak.  Chain reaction slows down.

I strongly believe that in the case of Fire, explosions, light, whatever we see with our naked eye is deceiving.  Total energy is not coming from them.  There are no energy boosters, inverters, transformers.  Truly, it is not mechanical.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 01/03/2020 18:10:29
At present we are of the opinion that total energy is coming from the atom bomb only.

That's not an opinion. It's the scientifically observed reality.

If it is true, where and how huge energy is stored in a fissile material.  If the total energy is from the fissile material, how it is stable in normal condition.

The answer has been given to you in past threads. There is no mystery there.

Ok, before going deep, let me tell you one simple incident that happened in my high school studies.  One day teacher performed a simple experiment.  He lighted a candle, closed it by a  glass and when the candle put off, he started explaining how things need oxygen to burn.  Immediately, I questioned, why don’t you think that the glass is “obstructing” something.  Nobody listened to me.

The glass is indeed obstructing something: the flow of new oxygen to the fire.

But, at present we are of the opinion that there is no potential energy or energy density on Earth.

Citation needed.

If the same bomb is detonated on Moon.  Here Gravity or curvature or energy density is weak.  Though same amount of energy freed, energy density in the space time is weak.  Weak charge is passed on to the surface.  Since Gravity or curvature of space time is 1/6th, naturally yield also.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jerrygg38 on 02/03/2020 11:03:29
Parsala said:
PMr Kryptid
As per Einstein Math:
"This, in a nutshell, then, is the General Theory of Relativity, and its central premise is that the curvature of space-time is directly determined by the distribution of matter and energy contained within it. What complicates things, however, is that the distribution of matter and energy is in turn governed by the curvature of space, leading to a feedback loop and a lot of very complex mathematics. Thus, the presence of mass/energy determines the geometry of space, and the geometry of space determines the motion of mass/energy"
GG: Einstein's work is an excellent mathematical solution for space and time. As you point out it does not tell us why. based upon the effects of gravity.Einstein looks at the universe and models a solution based on the effects of gravity. Why does it appear that space time bends? Does it really bend? I will post that today.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/03/2020 15:08:40
“Matter tells space how to curve, and curved space tells matter how to move”.

It is the basic principle behind Einstein's General Relativity, which linked, for the first time, the phenomenon of gravity with that of spacetime and relativity.

Place a mass down anywhere in the Universe, and the space around it will curve in response.

No doubt Einstein’s imagination is  extra-ordinary.

Now, science developed a lot and we are sending satellites into deep space.  Let us imagine that we have placed a satellite “X” in the space.   Ok, now, compare in between Earth and satellite “X”.

01 Both Earth and Satellite “X” have curved space time around them.
02 Due to curvature both of them are in inertial position.
03 Earth is now started rotating against its axis, but satellite “X” is not.
04 If matter warps the spacetime, in the case of satellite “X”, if not Gravity, there must be symptoms, at least.
05 In the case of satellite, why curvature fails to move it.
06 One part of Einstein, “matter tells space time how to curve” is complete.  But the other part, “curved space time tells mass how to move”, is not accomplished.

Curvature grips mass and throws it into inertial position.  This is the key point.  This is not Gravity and it is only a part of Gravity.

Einstein explained in a lecture in 1922:
“I was sitting on a chair in my patent office in Bern. Suddenly a thought struck me: If a man falls freely, he would not feel his weight. I was taken aback. This simple thought experiment made a deep impression on me. This led me to the theory of gravity”.

This, thought experiment, is simple, yet extra-ordinary.  Let us say, a person ”Y” is standing at the top of the building.  If he dives, he will simply transform away from gravity.   As long as “Y” is at the top of the building and also on Earth there is strong Gravity.  By this Einstein equated:
“Gravity to acceleration”.

But, why, the above rule is not applicable to Earth.  It is true that Earth is rotating 460 meters per second, which is several times greater than Gravity.  Still why curvature is intact.

There is something which is protecting Earth, not only Earth but all other planets.  In the absence of this protection, curvature will be simply eroded.  It is paving way for Gravity, without which Gravity is incomplete.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jerrygg38 on 08/03/2020 15:57:13
Pasala said
But, why, the above rule is not applicable to Earth.  It is true that Earth is rotating 460 meters per second, which is several times greater than Gravity.  Still why curvature is intact.
GG: I do not understand what you are trying to prove by this statement. Gravity is 9.806 meters per second squared which is an acceleration and you are comparing it to a surface velocity. If you take the velocity squared and divide it b y the radius of the earth you would get a tiny number. Gravity is much stronger than the outward force that could tear the earth apart.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/03/2020 16:19:16
Pasala said
But, why, the above rule is not applicable to Earth.  It is true that Earth is rotating 460 meters per second, which is several times greater than Gravity.  Still why curvature is intact.
GG: I do not understand what you are trying to prove by this statement. Gravity is 9.806 meters per second squared which is an acceleration and you are comparing it to a surface velocity. If you take the velocity squared and divide it b y the radius of the earth you would get a tiny number. Gravity is much stronger than the outward force that could tear the earth apart.

GG
I am talking about "Gravity to acceleration".  If the space craft accelerates more than 9.806 meters per second, space time curvature around the space craft is lost.  It is now gravity free.  When Earth is spinning 460 meters per second, how curvature/gravity is intact.

Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 08/03/2020 16:41:38
But, why, the above rule is not applicable to Earth.

It is. Gravity is what holds the Earth together.

It is true that Earth is rotating 460 meters per second, which is several times greater than Gravity.

No, it is not several times greater than gravity. The centrifugal force at the equator is much smaller than the gravitational force. Look up the equation for centrifugal force and do the math yourself if you don't believe me.

You need to understand that velocity is not acceleration.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/03/2020 16:55:26

"The principle of equivalence says that gravity is not a force at all, but is in fact the same thing as acceleration.

Einstein’s ground-breaking realization (which he called “the happiest thought of my life”) was that gravity is in reality not a force at all, but is indistinguishable from, and in fact the same thing as, acceleration, an idea he called the “principle of equivalence”.

When the sky driver, escapes due to acceleration, think of Earth, how Gravity hooked Earth at that velocity.
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 08/03/2020 17:00:13
When the sky driver, escapes due to acceleration, think of Earth, how Gravity hooked Earth at that velocity.

Was that a question? If so, there needs to be a question mark at the end. Even if it is a question, I don't understand what you're asking. I can't make sense of that sentence.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/03/2020 17:05:48
But, why, the above rule is not applicable to Earth.

It is. Gravity is what holds the Earth together.
"When Gravity or curvature itself is in question" how it holds Earth.  Further it is not comparison to centrifugal force to gravity but "Gravity to acceleration".
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/03/2020 17:07:21
When the sky driver, escapes due to acceleration, think of Earth, how Gravity hooked Earth at that velocity.

Was that a question? If so, there needs to be a question mark at the end. Even if it is a question, I don't understand what you're asking. I can't make sense of that sentence.
Oh, Kryptid.
Ok I will try
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 08/03/2020 17:09:31
I had proposed 8 to 9 layers
On what basis?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/03/2020 17:39:09
I had proposed 8 to 9 layers
On what basis?
Sure, I will try in the later session.
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 08/03/2020 21:56:02
"When Gravity or curvature itself is in question" how it holds Earth.

It isn't in question. Gravity doesn't disappear. By the way, you missed another question mark.

Further it is not comparison to centrifugal force to gravity but "Gravity to acceleration".

Then why did you bring up the spinning of the Earth? Rotational acceleration causes centrifugal force.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/03/2020 11:59:20
One’s Einstein said:
“I was sitting on a chair in my patent office in Bern. Suddenly a thought struck me: If a man falls freely, he would not feel his weight. I was taken aback. This simple thought experiment made a deep impression on me. This led me to the theory of gravity”.

It is true that as long as the person is at the top of the building there is Gravity.  When he dives, due to acceleration, curvature or Gravity disappears.

Now, before going to spinning of Earth, let us take the example of cylindrical carnival ride.  The cylinder is rotated faster and faster until the acceleration eases and the movement stays constant. But, once the speed is constant, you still feel the accelerated motion, you feel yourself being pinned to the outer edge of the ride. Cylindrical ride that accelerated motion can warp space and time.

It is here that Einstein connected the dots to suggest that gravity is the warping of space and time.

Here, centrifugal force is just one side of the coin only.  It is true that, cylindrical carnival, passengers all curved the space time around them.  As the carnival picks up faster, since gravity is equated to acceleration, curvature or gravity against carnival and passengers weakens.

We are comparing carnival to Earth.  In fact there is strong curvature or Gravity against Earth also.  As the carnival pickup, it is true that curvature weakens.  What about Earth?.  This is one of the key point in “what exactly is gravity”.

When a person dives from high place, he will definitely transform away from Gravity.  What about the cylindrical carnival?.  As long as the carnival is at inertial position, strong Gravity hooked it.  As it accelerates, gravity weakens and acceleration eases.

When Earth is at inertial position gravity hooked it.  It is known fact that Earth is spinning at the rate of 460 meters per second.   Ok, how Gravity is intact at that velocity.

In the case of carnival, if Gravity is intact at that speed/acceleration then only it will be able to warp the space time.  But there is no scope for any gravity at all.  As the Gravity weakens, carnival acceleration eases. Passengers at the edges travel full circumference, escapes from gravity and are moved to edges due to air and other forces.

The effects of being in a gravitational field are indistinguishable from the effects of being in an accelerated frame of reference.

Indistinguishability tells us that Gravity can be packed in a closed frame.  Warped space time is already present in the space time, which can be packed or moved from place to place.  Closed frame of reference tells us that there is something working as frame protecting gravity on Earth.

If cylindrical carnival possess gravity in acceleration, if am sure mine idea or thinking is wrong.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 14/03/2020 14:06:41
When he dives, due to acceleration, curvature or Gravity disappears.

No it doesn't. The space that he's falling through is still curved. If the gravity disappeared, he would move with a constant velocity instead of accelerating.

he will definitely transform away from Gravity.

What is "transform away from gravity" supposed to mean?

As it accelerates, gravity weakens and acceleration eases.

Gravity does not get weaker. And normally, I would expect "acceleration eases" to mean that you are decelerating, not accelerating.

When Earth is at inertial position gravity hooked it.

What does being "at inertial position" mean? What does "gravity hooked it" mean?

Ok, how Gravity is intact at that velocity.

Because there's no reason that it shouldn't be intact (whatever it means for gravity to be "intact").
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/03/2020 14:47:34
When he dives, due to acceleration, curvature or Gravity disappears.

No it doesn't. The space that he's falling through is still curved. If the gravity disappeared, he would move with a constant velocity instead of accelerating.

Quote from: pasala on Today at 11:59:20

What is "transform away from gravity" supposed to mean?
Yes, of course space time is not empty.  But curvature against the person, who dives is weakens.  So, naturally, he will temporarily transform away from gravity.    When the carnival is at inertial position, there is strong curvature or gravity against it.  As it accelerates curvature or gravity against it weakens.

Suppose let us imagine that our Earth is in inertial position.  As usual, like any other mass, it curves the space time around it.  Ok, now Earth started spinning against its axis, how the curvature or gravity is still exists.

"Einstein equated Gravity to acceleration"
Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 14/03/2020 18:53:41
Yes, of course space time is not empty.  But curvature against the person, who dives is weakens.  So, naturally, he will temporarily transform away from gravity.    When the carnival is at inertial position, there is strong curvature or gravity against it.  As it accelerates curvature or gravity against it weakens.

You're not helping me understand you. Like I asked before, what does "transform away from gravity" and "at inertial position" mean? Until I understand that, I can't know what you're telling me.

Ok, now Earth started spinning against its axis, how the curvature or gravity is still exists.

Because rotation doesn't get rid of that curvature. It's as simple as that.

What is your native language, by the way?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/03/2020 12:47:52
DOES MASS CURVES THE SPACETIME, ANYWHERE:
Does mass curves the space time anywhere in the universe.  This is one of the important point in deciding what exactly is gravity.

Ok, as per Newton’s theory of gravity, if we place a massive sphere in space it will start exerting force on all other masses around it.

As per Einstein’s General theory of relativity, if we place a massive sphere anywhere in the universe it will distort space time around it.  In other words space time around the sphere is curved.    Matter tells space how to curve, and curved space tells matter how to move. For the first time, Einstein’s General relativity linked Gravity to space time. Mass warps the spacetime and the curvature of spacetime around mass explains gravity.

Suppose a planet “X” is placed in the space and it curved the space time around it.  In other words, it created its own gravity field.  When it is capable of creating its own gravity field, why planets don’t exists outside our solar system.

There are 8 to 9 planets in our solar system.  The Sun is at the center and these planets are orbiting the Sun.

Gμν = 8πTμν
On the left side of the equation is a tensor describing the geometry of spacetime — the gravitational field. On the right is the tensor describing the matter and energy density — the source of the gravitational field. The equation shows that spacetime geometry equals mass-energy density when adjusted with the proper units and numerical constants.
It is very much clear that Einstein equated Gravitational field with matter and energy density.

So, without source, matter and energy how a gravitational field is created.  Mass is just one part only, curvature or gravity again depends on mass/energy density within that area.  No energy density, no curvature or gravity.

It is surprise, why we are taking space as empty.

Planets are curving the space time within a solar system only and that is why they are existing in a solar system.
Energy density is working like a space fabric.  Outside our solar system, there is no energy density, no curvature, no planet can exist.

No planet can curve the space time, anywhere, unless there is energy density within that place.  There is huge/sufficient energy density, already present in our solar system, which is aiding curvature.

Science developed a lot, these things are appearing before us.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/03/2020 14:03:34
Is there any particular reason that you completely ignored my last post?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/03/2020 17:35:57
When the sky driver, escapes due to acceleration, think of Earth, how Gravity hooked Earth at that velocity.

Was that a question? If so, there needs to be a question mark at the end. Even if it is a question, I don't understand what you're asking. I can't make sense of that sentence.
Mr Kryptid
Are you an English .........?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/03/2020 18:27:54
When the sky driver, escapes due to acceleration, think of Earth, how Gravity hooked Earth at that velocity.

Was that a question? If so, there needs to be a question mark at the end. Even if it is a question, I don't understand what you're asking. I can't make sense of that sentence.
Mr Kryptid
Are you an English .........?
An English what?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/03/2020 21:52:57
Mr Kryptid
Are you an English .........?

No, I'm an American.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 29/03/2020 15:36:11
Einstein's Equivalence Principle:

Einstein’s equivalence is an extension to Galileo Galilei’s, relative motion of objects.  He wrote this in 1632, even before Newton published his now-famous work.

“If you are in a closed room on a ship sailing at a constant speed and the ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as they would on land. There’s no physical experiment you could conduct to tell whether you’re moving or stationary (assuming you’re not peeking out of a porthole).

This is an excellent idea/thinking of Galilei.  When the ship is at constant speed, things in a closed room, behave as if on land.  He compared closed room to Earth.

By the time of Einstein science developed a lot and he replaced ship to spaceship.

“Is there any physical experiment you could do within the confines of your spaceship to tell whether you really were accelerating through space (assuming there were no windows to look out from), or if, instead, you were inside a spaceship stationary on the surface of Earth? Einstein said no—just as Galileo imagined the indistinguishability between a person inside a smooth-sailing ship (confined without windows) and a person on land.This is called the equivalence principle”.

Einstein's theory of "Equivalence Principle" asserts the equivalence between inertial and gravitational forces of acceleration. It rests upon the fact that we cannot distinguish between the inertial forces, experienced, in a rocket ship accelerating through space, and the gravitational forces experienced on the surface of the Earth.

01  Equivalence principle tells indistinguishability, between a person inside a closed chamber of space ship to a person on land.
02  Indistinguishability is valid only when two things compared are equal
03  Does a closed chamber is equal to Earth?.  If so, Earth also must be a closed one.  But we are taking Earth as open.
04  So, equivalence principle is not “indistinguishable”, but “distinguishable”.
05  Ok, engine of the spaceship is on, it started accelerating through space.  Escape velocity is the speed at which the sum of an object's kinetic energy and its gravitational potential energy is equal to zero.  As the spaceship gains escape velocity, for the spaceship “Gravity is equal to acceleration”.
06  As per Einstein, if we place any mass, anywhere in the spacetime, it curves, which is known as Gravity.  Similarly, there is curvature against Earth also.  At that velocity, how this curvature is intact.
07  If Earth is an open, not having doors or windows, nothing can stop centrifugal force. Thiings may be different.

Finally, we can say that Earth is not an open but a closed one. This is exactly like that of a closed room in a ship or a closed chamber in spaceship. If it is open, then it is not “indistinguishable”, but distinguishable.

This is the same reason why we don’t feel our planet’s movement around the sun.

Space warps under accelerated motion:

“Theoretically, you could be in deep space, far away from all significant mass concentrations and their gravitational influence. The rocket engine of the observer’s spaceship is firing and produces an acceleration of 9.8 meters (32 feet) per square second. This accelerated observer feels as heavy as we would feel on earth, since the gravitational acceleration with which an object on earth falls to the ground has that exact same value”.

Does space time warps under acceleration motion?.
01  It is true that as long as the space ship is at rest or stationary on the ground, one of the space crew, Mr. X’s weight is 75 kgs.
02  As the engine is start and the rocket start accelerating at the rate of 9.81 meters per second, Mr. X’s weight continues to be 75 kgs only.
03  If space time warps under acceleration motion, one’s rocket achieves escape velocity there must be change in gravity.  No such thing hinted by Einstein.
03  Basic doubt of Einstein is that, the rocket is far away from all significant mass and its gravitational influence, in deep space where there is no Gravity, still as long as rocket engines work at exactly the right rate to accelerate 9.81 meters per second, how, things behave as if on land i.e., gravity.
04  In the cabin Mr. ‘X’s weight continues to be 75 kgs.  So, Einstein thought that space time is warping under acceleration motion.
05  In ‘indistinguishability’, Galileo raised two important points, sailing is smooth and  assuming you’re not peeking out of a porthole.
06  So, it is clear that Gravity can be packed in a closed room or space cabin.  And, this packed Gravity behaves similarly to that on Earth.
07 One’s you reaches the destination and Engine is shut, space time start interacting with the cabin.  Since pressure is high inside the cabin, it moves out and equates with outside.
08  Here, effect of centrifugal force is far limited or negligible since there is no change of Mr. X’s weight anywhere.

How Gravity works on Earth:

I think, the following is the wonderful presentation of Einstein and it is possible for the people like Einstein only.  No ordinary brain can get an idea or think.

“The room you are in could be a cabin aboard a rocket – In such a situation, if you let go of an object, the cabin floor would accelerate towards that object at 9.81 meters per square second – exactly the same acceleration of free fall here on earth. From your vantage point as an observer standing on the cabin floor, you cannot distinguish between the two situations: are those objects falling towards a massive body like the earth? Or is the cabin floor accelerating towards them”.

01 In macro level, this is 100% correct and valid.
02  Ok, there are two planets Earth and Moon.  If moon is in “free fall”, like an object let to go.  In such situation, if Earth raises towards Moon, it is possible to measure or to say, whether Moon is coming down or Earth raising.
03  In micro level, for an apple, Earth raising, impossible to measure or say anything.  For an object to cabin floor, it is ok.

“This famous principle begins with the recognition that a gravitational force, as we experience it on Earth's surface ("weight"), is actually caused by spacetime accelerating through us on its way to the center of the Earth. We feel the force only because we are unable to follow the natural flow of spacetime which tries to carry us with it. In "free fall" or orbit we are co-movers with the spatial flow, and feel no force at all, as we offer no resistance to its inertial urgings”.

01   In “free fall”, as per Einstein, we are co-movers with the spatial flow and feel no force.
02 Gravity or weight we feel on Earth’s surface is actually caused by space time accelerating through us to the centre of the Earth.  We feel the force, because we are unable to follow the natural flow of space time.
03  In “Indistinguishability”,  it is clear that Earth is not an open frame, but a closed frame.  There is no centrifugal force working against us as assumed by Einstein.  Its effect is far limited.
04  In equivalence principle, we have discussed in detail that Gravity can be packed or moved.  If it is due to flow of spacetime, since it is a continuous process, almost impossible to pack or move.

What exactly is Gravity:

From the theory, “Indistinguishability”  it is clear that Earth is a closed frame.  In case, if it is not correct, then the theory is distinguishable, invalid and incorrect.  As pointed out by Galileo, we will get the feeling, as if on land, only when doors, windows are closed and sail is smooth.  If Earth is having doors, windows, in other words an open frame, there is no comparison at all.

Earth is a closed frame, like that of a room in ship or cabin in spaceship. It paved the way for storage of additional energy.  Since Earth is a closed frame, energy entering space time of Earth cannot move out that much easily. This additional energy is warping the space time of Earth.  It is true that Gravity is matter blind.  Total energy density is stranded against the Earth and it tries to move towards the center of the Earth.

The cabin of the spaceship is closed in a Gravity field only.  This atmosphere consists of high energy density.  The crew inside the cabin gets the feeling, as if on land.  When the space ship reaches destination, engine stops, now high density energy in the cabin, interacts with space time of the space ship and adjusts with it.

It clearly tells us that Gravity can be packed and moved.

Suppose, Mr. X is standing in an open place and the space time around him is curved.  For the strong density of energy, moving towards the center of Earth, he is an obstruction.  Energy moving, nearby Mr. X, bends, interacts with the curvature, start flowing along with the curvature.  This is Gravity or weight, we feel on Earth.

If Mr. X dives from a high place, in free fall, as thought by Einstein, Energy flow equates.  Here, one more important point is that, Mr. X when he is stationary on the ground, there is strong curvature against him.  In free fall, as he accelerates, curvature against him weakens further and further.  As he approaches, 9.81 meters per second, curvature disappears permanently, in other words ‘free fall’.  This is the same  in case of Earth also.  Suppose, let us imagine that Earth is at rest or stationary, there is strong curvature.  When Earth started spinning, curvature weakens.  But Earth is having a strong frame, by which it is closed from all sides and it is giving protection..

Process of Earth spinning:

01  Initially, all the planets, like that of satellites in the space, curves their space time and are at rest or stationary.
02  Energy flowing in the lanes pushes them.
03  Meanwhile atmosphere is developed, frame never allows energy in the lane to interact with Earth directly.
04  Energy in the open area start flowing along with the lane and drags Earth.

If Mr. X start moving in upward direction, as energy density in the space time weakens, curvature against him also weakens.   It is true that energy is neither created nor destroyed, it can only be modified one form to other.  A part of the incoming energy towards Earth bounces back and moves to faraway places.  When these forces, incoming and outgoing equate, things at that place are at rest or stationary.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 11/04/2020 15:48:30
Why Earth tilt or obliquity by 23.5 degrees:

It is said that distribution of mass on Earth is strongly influencing the tilt or obliquity.  Large amounts of land mass and ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere make Earth top-heavy. There is an analogy for this obliquity, if you spin a ball with a piece of bubble gum stuck near the top, the extra weight would cause the ball to tilt when spun.

Distribution of mass and ice sheet in the Norther Hemisphere make Earth top heavy, is just an imagination only. In the case of ball, it is rotating against gravity field, where as in the case of Earth, rotation is due to gravity field only.

What makes earth to tilt:

Einstein eventually identified the property of spacetime which is responsible for gravity as its curvature. ... This is the core of Einstein's theory of general relativity, which is often summed up in words as follows: "matter tells spacetime how to curve, and curved spacetime tells matter how to move".

We have already discussed  that total energy in our solar system is present in the form of layers and there are 8 to 9 layers.  Basically, without this energy density, matter never curves the space time.  It is true that Sun is rotating against its axis, causing flow of energy in these layers.

Suppose, let us imagine that Sun and other planets are at rest or stationary.  Now energy from Sun moves in straight line.  In such case, there is no scope for rotation or revolution.

Rotation of Sun is causing movement of energy in the layers.  Space time of the Earth is curved.  Energy in the layer, faces gravity waves from Earth, bends and start flowing along with the gravity waves.  Since there is pressure/force, it exerts pressure on gravity waves of Earth and start flowing along with curvature.  Earth start rotating against its axis.

But rotation of Earth in perpendicular or tilt or obliquity depends on the curvature of space time.  If curvature is in perpendicular or 180 degrees, Earth also moves in the same direction.

Here, space time of the Earth, most curved, at the equator, moves up or down, Earth also shifts down or up.  There are several reasons for the curved space time, changing its path.  It all depends on the availability/distribution of energy density.  Generally land mass influences distribution of energy density at a particular place.  Matter  curves the space time around it.  But curved space time, leads or directs the movement of Earth or any planet..

In this way, curved space time tells matter how to move.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 12/04/2020 17:21:48
“As we have seen, matter does not simply pull on other matter across empty space, as Newton had imagined. Rather matter distorts space-time and it is this distorted space-time that in turn affects other matter. Objects (including planets, like the Earth, for instance) fly freely under their own inertia through warped space-time, following curved paths because this is the shortest possible path (or geodesic) in warped space-time”.

I had gone by this precise statement several times.  Number of doubts bothers my mind.

01  When matter does not simply pull on other matter across empty space, how it distort empty space time.
02  What this distorted space time consists of, “medium” and how it affects other matter.
03  If Sun distorted space time, how it distorted empty space time, and the extent up to which it extends.  There are number of stars in our universe, do they distort space time around them.
04  Einstein utilized Newton’s 1st law of motion and the word ‘inertia” in a best way.
05  Well, do this ‘inertia’ is created after distortion of space time by Sun or is it permanent nature of planets.
06  If Sun distorts space time, it must be 4d space time, but why it is horizontal.
07  Finally, how this path or geodesic is created in warped space-time.

Well, of course mine knowledge is limited but there are people with excellent idea on Einstein theories, may have their opinion in this regard.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 03/05/2020 19:37:06
Well, of course it is known fact the astronauts, along with space station experiences weightlessness.  The astronauts’ weightlessness is due to the fact that, along with their station, they are in free fall.

It is surprise to see, how free fall is causing weightlessness to the astronauts and space station.

Suppose, you are in an elevator, and the elevator is in a Gravitational field of a mass, for instance that of the earth.  If the elevator is in free fall. In that case you, everything else within the elevator and the elevator itself would all be accelerated at exactly the same rate so that, inside, no influence of gravity could be detected.

Along with the elevator, objects faithfully keep their relative positions or move at a constant speed, just as they would in a gravity-free region of space. You, as the elevator’s passenger, would feel weightless. Thus, inside an elevator, we cannot decide whether or not we are in a gravitational field or not.

Here Einstein equated to a passenger in an elevator falling freely to a person in free space who feels weightless due to free fall.

Let us imagine that Mr. X is in an elevator, moving at a constant rate, in other words Mr. X and the elevator is in free fall.  Ok, Mr. X is in weightless condition.

Weightless due to free fall of elevator, no doubt, 100% correct.

Basic point is, weightless  in a gravity free space.  Mr X is already in space, gravity free region.  Whether Mr. X is in free fall or not, he is in weightless condition.

Now, take that Mr. X and the space station are in deep space.  Let us imagine that they are in at rest or stationary.  At that point, they are not gaining any weight.

There is no relevance to free fall in an elevator to free fall in a deep space.

Free fall in Space:

“Not, in the kind of free fall that takes them directly towards the earth, but in free fall that takes them around the earth – in earth orbit”.

Let us analyse, why space station orbit Earth:

It is true that Sun itself is not at rest or stationary.  It is rotating against its axis.  Sun is the base for total Energy in our Solar system.  While moving it is dragging energy base in the solar system.  In other words there is a flow of energy.

When a huge mass is placed in space, it curves or distorts space time around it.  It is now in weightless condition.  Energy flowing in the space exerts pressure and it start moving along with it.

On Earth’s surface, curved space time or energy density is not coming from Earth.  Energy flowing in the space, lanes, faces tidal force moving out from Earth, bends and start flowing.  The energy flow creates pressure against tidal force and it drags the planet.

Huge masses gradient, difference in energy into open space.  When the rocket accelerates, tidal forces start aiding it.  As the Gravity decreases, tidal forces start gaining strength.

On the other side there is flow of energy towards the mass. Astronauts, space station every mass curves the space time around them.  Energy moving towards Earth, bends and while moving along curved space, drags it.   It  creates pressure against space station.  However tidal waves moving out, in turn creates opposite pressure.  Since both forces are balanced the space station is at rest or stationary.   The flow or movement of energy drags the space station, along with Earth and makes it  to go in Earths orbit.

Here, ‘inertia’ is not right of the planets.  All the planets, continues to be at rest or stationary unless a force is acted upon by them.  And thus no ‘inertial forces’ exists.  Curvature only throws the planets into inertia i.e., at rest or stationary, but it cannot give inertia i.e., rotation against its axis.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: puppypower on 04/05/2020 11:41:39
“As we have seen, matter does not simply pull on other matter across empty space, as Newton had imagined. Rather matter distorts space-time and it is this distorted space-time that in turn affects other matter. Objects (including planets, like the Earth, for instance) fly freely under their own inertia through warped space-time, following curved paths because this is the shortest possible path (or geodesic) in warped space-time”.

This may describe one aspect of gravity; bending of space-time, but it ignores the other side of the coin, which is the pressure exerted by gravity via mass. This secondary affect, if you look closer, is the opposite of the direction of space-time, in terms of time. Gravity, as an acceleration, has the units of d/t/t, or gravity is two parts time and one part distance, or space-time plus time, with the second time connected to the Newtonian pressure.

As an example, nuclear fusion occurs in the center of our sun. This where the gravitational pressures are the highest. These core fusion reactions release the most energetic quanta of energy, implicit of the fastest frequency quanta and material transitions.

In terms of space-time and gravity, distance and time both contract the most in the core. When it comes to pressure and matter, distance contracts, but time; frequency, get faster, based on the phases induced by the pressure. Time goes in two directions, while distance goes in one common direction, as implicit of d/t/t.

GR tells us something about gravity with respect to the curvature of space-time, but this is not the whole story. Gravity is not a one trick pony. There is also a Newtonian pressure affect that defines the phases of mass and matter; universal diversity of materials in space-time. This uses a second time variable, that moves in the opposite direction of the GR time aspect.

The black hole has space-time contracted to nearly a point and time essentially stops. The pressures in the black hole will be extremely high, since so much matter is compacted into such a small space. This will generate exotic phases of matter with extreme frequency, which is the opposite direction of time in space-time.

Energy emissions would red shift, if they could leave the black hole. This slows the frequency; slows time, even though time, via space-time, expands or speed up outsider the black hole. It appears gravity help matter-energy and space-time normalize, via time.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bobolink on 04/05/2020 18:23:21
This may describe one aspect of gravity; bending of space-time, but it ignores the other side of the coin, which is the pressure exerted by gravity via mass.
Gravity is the bending of spacetime, period.  Gravity certainly can give rise to pressure, but nobody ignores that.
Gravity, as an acceleration, has the units of d/t/t, or gravity is two parts time and one part distance, or space-time plus time, with the second time connected to the Newtonian pressure.
That is gibberish.  Acceleration is dv/dt.
In terms of space-time and gravity, distance and time both contract the most in the core. When it comes to pressure and matter, distance contracts, but time; frequency, get faster, based on the phases induced by the pressure.
This is a startling misunderstanding of some basic concepts.  If matter is heated then the atoms move faster the black body radiation frequency increases but time is unaffected!  Frequency is not time, does that really need to be pointed out?
GR tells us something about gravity with respect to the curvature of space-time, but this is not the whole story. Gravity is not a one trick pony. There is also a Newtonian pressure
Newtonian pressure or as the rest of us refer to it, pressure is a consequence of GR (gravity).

The black hole has space-time contracted to nearly a point and time essentially stops. The pressures in the black hole will be extremely high, since so much matter is compacted into such a small space. This will generate exotic phases of matter with extreme frequency, which is the opposite direction of time in space-time.
Do you have any evidence for this flight of fancy?
Energy emissions would red shift, if they could leave the black hole. This slows the frequency; slows time, even though time, via space-time, expands or speed up outsider the black hole. It appears gravity help matter-energy and space-time normalize, via time.
Just some word salad to wrap it all up...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 10/05/2020 15:19:40
“Let’s imagine a cylindrical carnival ride where you and your fellow passengers are pinned to the outer surface. The cylinder is rotated faster and faster until the acceleration eases and the movement stays constant. But even once the speed is constant, you still feel the accelerated motion—you feel yourself being pinned to the outer edge of the ride”.

This is another important point in deciding “what exactly is gravity”

01 Ok, let us take carnival is at rest or stationary.
02 Now, rotate it faster and faster until acceleration eases.
03 It is true that every mass, including carnival curves the space time around it.
04 When the acceleration eases and the movement is constant, what about curvature,  and the gravity.

Instead, for better idea take a globe, approximately 3 kgs weight.  Now rotate the globe with maximum speed.  One’s the acceleration eases, its weight, definitely may not be 3 kgs.  Initially globe also curved the space time around it.  As the acceleration gains, curvature weakens.  In other words gravity.

Now let us compare globe to Earth.  Let us take Earth at rest or stationary, like our satellites.  Naturally it curves the space time around it.  Earth started rotating against its axis.  It is true that it is rotating with lot of velocity, in such situation, how Gravity or curvature is intact.

“If you are in a closed room on a ship sailing at a constant speed and the ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as they would on land. There’s no physical experiment you could conduct to tell whether you’re moving or stationary (assuming you’re not peeking out of a porthole).
This is the core idea behind relativity, and is the same reason why we don’t feel our planet’s movement around the sun, or our solar system’s movement through the galaxy”.

So, in distinguishability is valid only when two things compared are equal.

Finally, all planets including Earth are not open but closed and are having doors and windows.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bogie_smiles on 15/05/2020 15:15:56
Would it be fair to say that gravity is the effect of an imbalance in the local density of gravitational wave energy, i.e., Objects move in the direction of the net highest source of gravitational wave energy?

15325,15362,15375,
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 17/05/2020 18:28:17
As per Newton’s inverse square law, gravity is attraction of two masses.  Both Sun and Earth attract each other, but gravitational force from the Sun deflects it and causes it to move in an elliptical orbit around the Sun.
01 Both the planets are situated in far away places.
02 But, Sun deflects the motion of Earth and causes it to move in an elliptical orbit.
03  Sun is not near to Earth, still it deflects very motion of Earth.
04 What is the medium that aids or helps Sun to control motion of Earth.     To deflect Earth from its direction is not a simple thing and that too Earth is not near to Sun.
05  This medium or gravity, to create pressure or force, or whatever we say attraction, to cause this action of deflection, it must be there from Sun to Earth.  It is not a remote one.

In Einstein's theory, the presence of the sun distorts or curves the fabric of space and time. The earth then merely moves inertially in this curved spacetime around the sun. Not only Earth, but other planets also follows this curved paths.
01 Ok, Sun curved or distorted space time around it and it extended up to the end of Solar system.
02 Other planets also curves the space time around them, but it is far limited when compared to Sun.
03 How Sun curves or distorts space time up to the end of the Solar system.
04  If Gravity is not from Sun and is coming from outside,  It is Neptune which has to control all other planets.
06  So, Sun itself is the main source of Gravity.  Sun interacts with other planets, through this medium Gravity.
08  Sun distorted or curved space time with the help of this medium or Gravity produced by it.
09  All other planets simply roll over or moves in this curved space or paths.
10  If Sun is also a normal planet like Earth, it can curve or distort space time up to limited area or space only.  But it extends up to the end of our solar system.  In fact it is appearing before us.

Newton’s inverse square law, never tells you, how two masses attract each other.  For that, Newton in a true spirit accepted it.  As per Einstein, if you place, any mass, anywhere in the universe, in response it curves the space time around it.    However, from his maths, it is not clear what this curvature is.  If mass curves the space time, what is being curved.

Ok, let us compare between Sun and Earth.  It is true that both curves the space time around them.  But, though, Earth curves the space time, it is moving within the curved paths created by Sun.  Space time curved by Sun is not ordinary and it extends up to the end of our Solar system.

But why planets are moving inertially in the curved space time.  Gravity only creates link between Sun and other planets.  It never tells planets to move.  It is the Sun which decides:

“I move, you move and if I don’t, you don’t”.

It is true that planets curves the space time around them.  But without Sun there is no Gravity or medium to aid or help other planets to curve the space time.  Space fabric, within our solar system is not empty.

When compared to other planets, Sun is different.  Sun is dilating lot of energy into the space, where as other planets are having only mass and are not dilating energy.  Energy produced by Sun is filling space fabric.

Provided that, space time is common, Sun is an ordinary mass, to what extent or place up to which it can curve. If it curves the space time like any other planet, how it is controlling other planets.  Why Sun is the only planet creating paths to other planets.   .

Yes Sun is not ordinary mass, like that of other planets.  It curved the space time up to the end of Solar system.  Though other planets curves the space, it is limited and they simply follows the paths.

In normal course, space fabric is empty.  But this space fabric is filled with Sun’s energy.  It is true that energy is neither created nor destroyed.  This energy, what we term it as Gravity is spread throughout our solar system.  Other planets are not producing any energy and simply depends on Sun’s energy to curve the space time around them.

Gravity waves are not coming from outside solar system, even if they are, its effect is far limited or nothing.  If it is everything, then, Neptune has to play key role and it has to curve entire solar system.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 25/05/2020 16:12:13
THINGS BEHIND EQUIVALENCE PRINCIPLE:
“This famous principle begins with the recognition that a gravitational force, as we experience it on Earth's surface ("weight"), is actually caused by space time accelerating through us on its way to the center of the Earth”.

What exactly is flowing or accelerating through us and giving weight.

“Your elevator could be moving up, down, horizontally, or in any direction at all; unless there was a change in its motion, there would be no physical effect on anything that occurred inside the elevator”.

01 If the elevator is stationary on the ground, the gravitation of the Earth still causes every object inside to accelerate downwards at 9.8 m/s2:
02 If an elevator accelerates upwards at 9.8 m/s2 will see everything within it be accelerated downward towards the floor at that same rate: 9.8 m/s2.
03    If  the same elevator decelerates, as long as the elevator was in free fall,  everything else within the elevator and the elevator itself would all be accelerated at exactly the same rate so that, inside, no influence of gravity could be detected.

Now, if you allowed a light beam from outside to enter one side of the elevator through a hole, and observed where it struck the wall on the other side. This would depend on both your velocity and acceleration relative to the outside light source. In particular:

1.   If there were no relative motion or relative acceleration between the elevator and the light source, the light beam would appear to travel straight across.
2.   If there were relative motion (velocity) but no relative acceleration, the light beam would move in a straight line, but would be displaced from going directly across.
3.   If there were relative acceleration, the light beam would follow a curved path, with the magnitude of curvature determined by the magnitude of the acceleration.

Here, from light beam experiment it is clear that gravity is changing/moving its direction when elevator accelerates.
01  It is the elevator that is accelerating forward, but not the contents there in.
02  Elevator is separate from the contents, including Gravity there in.
03  When the elevator is at rest or stationary.  Gravity, inside the elevator is also at rest or stationary.
04   If the elevator accelerates, gravity which is at rest or stationary, collects or concentrates at the floor.

It is true that there is Gravity within the elevator and it is proved by the laser beam experiment.  When the Elevator is on the ground, at rest, gravity packed within the elevator, surprisingly, gives you the same results as that of one on Earth.

So, there is no difference between gravity in a small region in an elevator to that of one on Earth.

It is the elevator which is accelerating but not gravity within the elevator.  Gravity within the elevator is at rest or stationary.  When the elevator accelerates, gravity at rest or stationary, floor area moves up and the gravity is collected at the floor, resulting in curved path by the laser beam.

If the same elevator decelerates, gravity at rest, concentrates at the upper area.

Do Space warps under accelerated motion:

“Theoretically, you could be in deep space, far away from all significant mass concentrations and their gravitational influence. The rocket engine of the observer’s spaceship is firing and produces an acceleration of 9.8 meters (32 feet) per square second. This accelerated observer feels as heavy as we would feel on earth, since the gravitational acceleration with which an object on earth falls to the ground has that exact same value”.

This is another wrong assumption of Einstein.  It is true and proved by Einstein himself through laser beam experiment that there is gravity in the elevator and it behaves to that of one on the Earth.

When the elevator is on the ground, at rest, closed and if you drop the ball it fall down to the floor.  So, it is clear, irresistibly, 100% correct that Gravity can be packed within a small region.

The cabin of the space ship is closed in a strong gravity field only.  After closing the space ship’s cabin, Mr X’s weight is 75 kgs.  As the space ship accelerates into space, there is no change in the weight of Mr.X.    As long as the space ship is accelerating, outside space time fails to inter act with the cabin.  As it reaches destination, slowly inter acts with the outside space time and equates i.e., no gravity.

What exactly is Gravity:
“Matter tells space how to curve, and curved space tells matter how to move. That's the basic principle behind Einstein's General Relativity, which linked, for the first time, the phenomenon of gravity with that of spacetime and relativity”.

It is true that mass curves the space time.  Do all masses curves the space time equally.  No, it is not correct.  Let us compare in between Sun and Earth.  Both curves the space time. But space time curved by Sun is different and it extends up to the end of the solar system and Earth simply rolls in the curved paths created by Sun.   Basic difference is Sun is producing lot of energy and Earth is not.

Sun is the important of source of energy to our solar system.  This energy density is the space fabric in our solar system.  So, without energy from Sun, space fabric is empty.  All other planets curves the space time around them, but it depends on the size of the mass, density of energy in the space fabric.

Gravity on a planet:
We have already discussed, Galileo’s idea, If you are in a closed room on a ship sailing at a constant speed and the ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as they would on land.  Whether it is room of a ship or a cabin of space ship, it must be closed one.  When we compare, closed room of a ship or closed cabin of space ship to that of Earth, both must be true or otherwise they are distinguishable but not in distinguishable.

So, Earth or any planet having gravity is not open but closed.  If it is closed, it paves way for accumulation of high density of energy.  Gravity, whether it is in the solar system or on the surface of a planet mainly depends on the energy density.
Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: syhprum on 25/05/2020 16:45:05
If the elevator is accelerating at 9.8m/s/s then the force we would be exerting on the floor would be twice our normal weight
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 25/05/2020 17:23:56
If the elevator is accelerating at 9.8m/s/s then the force we would be exerting on the floor would be twice our normal weight
Yeah, you are 100% correct.  If you are in a car, accelerating forward or applies brake, it is the problem.  Ones the ride is smooth, no such effects.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 11/06/2020 16:07:47
Suppose, let us imagine that you are in a closed elevator, which is at rest or stationary on the ground and if you let the ball to fall on the ground, it behaves or fall to the ground, similarly as if on Earth.  So, it is clear that gravity can be packed within a small region and it behaves, similar to that of one on the Earth.

Further, if the elevator accelerates upwards, it is the elevator, alone, moving forward, and in turn literally it lifts the contents therein.  This is the reason, if you allow a light beam to pass through a hole:

01  if the elevator is at rest or stationary on the ground, the light beam passes through the other hole.

02 If there were relative acceleration, the light beam would follow a curved path, with the magnitude of curvature determined by the magnitude of the acceleration.

03 If there were relative motion or velocity, the light beam would move in a straight line, but would be displaced from going directly across.

So, it is clear that gravity influences the movement of light.  When the elevator accelerates forward, gravity moves in opposite direction and it bends the light.

As per Einstein, gravitational force, as we experience it on Earth's surface, weight, is actually caused by space time accelerating through us on its way to the center of the Earth.

In other words, there is strong gravity on Earth.

If it is spatial flow:
01 Don’t it influences, Sun light entering our Earth's surface.
02 Don’t it influences, your electric light
03  Don’t it influences, torch light etc.,

Believe it or not, it is influencing, your every day actions.  If we could understand gravity in a better, we can do wonders.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 11/06/2020 20:29:54
03 If there were relative motion or velocity, the light beam would move in a straight line, but would be displaced from going directly across.

No it wouldn't. It would behave identically to 01 (being at rest).
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Janus on 11/06/2020 21:03:39
03 If there were relative motion or velocity, the light beam would move in a straight line, but would be displaced from going directly across.

No it wouldn't. It would behave identically to 01 (being at rest).
To be fair, it depends on whether or not the light source and elevator are in relative motion with respect to each other.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 11/06/2020 23:41:40
To be fair, it depends on whether or not the light source and elevator are in relative motion with respect to each other.

That's true. I assumed that the light source was on the elevator and passing through a hole in the wall opposite of it.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 13/06/2020 16:24:06

Well, Galileo’s idea, “relative motion of objects” written by him in ships is perfectly valid.  “If you are in a closed room on a ship and the ship is sailing at constant speed and the ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as if on land”.
Taking this idea further, Einstein carried out number of experiments.

His Equivalence principle assert that:
“Imagine that you are in a closed elevator and if you pick up an object and let it drop, it falls to the floor, exactly, like an object that fall to the ground on Earth”.

Ok, suppose that:
“imagine that you are in a closed cabin of space ship, accelerating forward at 9.81 metres per second in deep space, as long as the engine work, if you let go of an object, the cabin floor would accelerate towards the object at 9.81 metres per second”.

Well, this is perfectly valid statement.

However there are several important questions:
01  Gravity inside the elevator and the space ship, in a small region is perfectly valid and behaves similar to that of one on Earth.
02  Isn’t it gives an idea that gravity can be packed in a small region.
03  Basic idea of Einstein is that, the elevator is on Earth’s surface, in other words, under the influence of  “Gravity or attraction of Earth”.
04  Whereas the space ship is in deep space, off the gravity field, far away from Earth’s gravity, still there is gravity in the space cabin, as long as the “engine works”, why?.
05 Einstein could not come out of Newton’s inverse square law.
06  It is true that cabin of the space ship is closed or packed in a gravity field only.  So, there is gravity within the atmosphere of the Earth, which can be packed or moved.
07  Einstein’s equivalence principle is valid, if a cabin of the space ship is closed in a non-gravity field i.e., deep space and if the acceleration generates gravity in the space cabin.
08  Gravity in the space ship cabin is not due to the working of engine, but the gravity packed in cabin fails to inter act with the outside space time as long as the space ship is under acceleration.

Einstein’s idea is perfectly valid, If the cabin of the space ship is packed in a non-gravity field and acceleration generates or creates gravity,

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/06/2020 16:04:19
03 If there were relative motion or velocity, the light beam would move in a straight line, but would be displaced from going directly across.

No it wouldn't. It would behave identically to 01 (being at rest).
To be fair, it depends on whether or not the light source and elevator are in relative motion with respect to each other.
When the elevator accelerates forward:
01  It is the elevator alone that is moving forward.
02  Gravity inside the elevator is at rest or stationary.
03  Elevator while moving forward, lifts the gravity.
04  Gravity start collecting at the bottom.

This is the reason, if we accelerate forward in a car or train, we will be pushed back.  This is an important point left by our predecessors.

It is true that if the elevator attains velocity, light beam would move in a straight line, but would be displaced.  Why and how it is displaced and what makes it to be displace from straight position.
01  When the elevator moves forward, gravity is collected at the bottom.
02  Gravity is strong at the bottom and weak at the top.
03  There is no change or movement with regard to light source.

It is true that Gravity bends the light.  Here, there are two important points.
01  Light source and the output is constant.
02  Gravity start collecting at the bottom of the elevator.

It is surprise to see, whether gravity bends the light or the light follows gravity.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 14/06/2020 17:26:02
03  Elevator while moving forward, lifts the gravity.
04  Gravity start collecting at the bottom.

That doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 21/06/2020 15:23:21
03  Elevator while moving forward, lifts the gravity.
04  Gravity start collecting at the bottom.

That doesn't make sense.
Ok, let us revisit what Galileo wrote about the relative motion of objects.  He wrote this in 1632 even before Newton published his famous work.
“If you are in a closed room on a ship sailing at a constant speed and the ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as they would on land”.

To be correct:
01  One must be in a closed room
02  Ship must move in a constant speed
03  Objects behave as if on land.

By that time, Galileo is not aware about Gravity.  It is a little bit surprise to Galileo, why objects in a closed room, if the speed is constant, behaves as if on land.

This is the core idea behind relativity.  But Einstein left an important point, comparison of closed room to Earth.
If Earth is not a closed one, why, we don’t we feel our movement in Solar system and also in galaxy.

Einstein simply extended this to an elevator:
“Imagine you are in an elevator or, more precisely, in what looks like an elevator cabin from the inside, and that you are isolated from the outside world. If you pick up an object and let it drop, it falls down to the floor, in exactly the way you would expect given your experiences here on Earth”.

By the time of Einstein science developed a lot.  He knew that there is gravity on Earth and it is giving weight.  In a small region such as elevator also there is gravity and objects are behaving as if on land.  Here, Einstein left an important point.  It is true that Gravity in a big area, Earth or in a small region, elevator is one and the same.  Gravity in a small region such as elevator is neither created nor developed artificially but only separated or packed.

He compared closed elevator to Earth, as such both must be true.

If Earth is not a closed one, such as room of a ship or closed elevator, equivalence principle is incomparable, inconclusive and incorrect.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 21/06/2020 17:45:45
That didn't explain it. Elevators don't lift gravity nor does gravity "collect at the bottom".
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 21/06/2020 18:53:17
That didn't explain it. Elevators don't lift gravity nor does gravity "collect at the bottom".

Yeah, it only gives weight.

We don't know, what exactly this medium is.  Even Einstein never said about it.  If it is a spatial flow, in a closed space ship cabin, how it is packed or moved.  If it is due to acceleration, close the cabin in a non gravity area and test it.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 27/06/2020 14:32:45
That didn't explain it. Elevators don't lift gravity nor does gravity "collect at the bottom".
Mr kryptid

Ok, let us analyse, elevator example of Einstein itself.

If the elevator is at rest or stationary on the ground and if we pass light beam from one hole to the other hole, it simply passes through it.

If the elevator accelerates forward, light beam, accelerates downwards, equivalent to the acceleration of elevator.

If the elevator attains velocity, light beam would be displaced in a straight manner.

This is not done by me, but Einstein himself.  Ok, if the elevator accelerates forward, light beam would accelerates downwards.  The source of light beam is constant and moves upwards along with the elevator.  So, there is no change in source of light beam and it is constant.  But, why should, or what makes light beam to accelerate downward.  What is moving downward and making light beam to move downward.

As per Einstein, gravity bends the light.  This is absolutely Einstein statement only.

As long as the elevator is at constant, gravity inside the elevator is also at constant and hence light passes through the other hole.

When the elevator accelerates forward, it is the Gravity moving downwards.  Gravity while moving downwards, bends the light.

Suppose, if the elevator attains velocity, downward shift of Gravity attains constancy and hence light beam would be displaced in a straight manner.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 27/06/2020 17:12:09
This is not done by me, but Einstein himself.

Nowhere did Einstein say that gravity can be lifted. He only stated that acceleration in an elevator cannot be distinguished from a static elevator in a uniform gravitational field.

When the elevator accelerates forward, it is the Gravity moving downwards.  Gravity while moving downwards, bends the light.

No it isn't. The acceleration of an elevator does not create a literal gravitational field. It's just that it has the same effect as gravity.

But, why should, or what makes light beam to accelerate downward

It doesn't. It's the elevator that is accelerating, not the light beam. No force is acting on the light beam.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/06/2020 17:54:57
Gravity, spatial flow?:

It is true that Einstein carried out number of experiments.  But he left some of the important points which decides “what exactly is gravity”.

Ok, suppose that if you are in a closed elevator and if you pick up an object and let it drop, it falls to the floor, in exactly the way you would expect given your experiences here on Earth.

Now, if the elevator is accelerated upward and Mr X is in the elevator:
01  You are lifting the elevator alone and not Mr. X.  In turn elevator lifts Mr. X, who is at rest or stationary.
02  In the closed elevator also there is gravity and it behaves similarly to that of one on Earth.
03  Gravity along with other things in the elevator is at rest or stationary.
04  For this, there is best example of Einstein.   If you are in an elevator accelerating forward, if you leave the ball to fall, for the third person, cannot decide or say whether ball is coming down to the floor or floor is raising to the ball.
05  So, it is clear and undoubtedly correct that Gravity is pushing the ball and at the same time floor is also raising.
06  When the elevator is on Earth’s surface gravity is spread uniformly.
07  The elevator while moving upwards lifts the gravity.  The medium or agent which we term as Gravity start collecting at the bottom.
08  In other words there is high Gravity at the bottom and weak Gravity at the top.
09  As the Gravity concentration increases, pressure or weight increases and it pushes you down.
10  This is also clear from light beam experiment.  Light beam is not bend by itself, unless something bends it.  It is gravity only.  The same was proved by Einstein himself.

Features of Gravity:
01  Gravity can be packed in a small region such as elevator.
02  When the elevator is lifted, Gravity concentration at the bottom increases and it gives additional weight or pushes you down.  It is clear from light beam experiment.  Gravity while moving down, bends the light.
04  When the concentration increases at the bottom, it causes or gives additional weight.
05  So, it is clear that Gravity or weight is caused by this medium.  If the concentration of this medium increases at a place, gravity increases and if the concentration decreases, Gravity also decreases.
06  Ones the elevator attains velocity, gravity neutralizes, in other words spreads.  So Gravity is having important quality of moving from high to low.

Do Gravity a Spatial flow?:
As per Einstein: “This famous principle begins with the recognition that a gravitational force, as we experience it on Earth's surface ("weight"), is actually caused by spacetime accelerating through us on its way to the center of the Earth. We feel the force only because we are unable to follow the natural flow of spacetime which tries to carry us with it. In "free fall" or orbit we are co-movers with the spatial flow, and feel no force at all, as we offer no resistance to its inertial urgings”.

01 If it is a spatial flow, it must be high at the starting and must diminish at the end, but it is not so.  It is high on Earth’s surface and decreases as we move up.
02 If it is a spatial flow, in a closed elevator where in a part of the Gravity is packed, should not behave as that of main one on Earth’s surface.  But no such difference.
03 If it is a spatial flow, it is impossible or difficult to pack or move in a cabin of space ship.

“Free fall” is a game changer in Einstein’s General relativity.  Ok, suppose if you are on top of a building.  If you dives in, you will experience “free fall”, there is no gravity at all.  As per Einstein, this invisible force, Gravity, is nothing but acceleration of space time towards the centre of the Earth.

As per Einstein, space time is accelerating through us on its way to the centre of the Earth.  In the case of “Free fall”, we are co-movers and therefore feel no Gravity at all.
01  Yes, it is possible that we are co-movers and therefore there is no Gravity.
02  There is also other possibility that, Gravity or this invisible force is giving you weight only when you are at rest.
03 When you accelerates downwards, it fails to concentrate against you and give weight.  “Gravity is equated with acceleration”.

Free fall in elevator:
Suppose if you are in a closed elevator, accelerating downwards, you feel no weight at all, free fall.  Here, things are different.  As the elevator accelerates downwards, Gravity is collected at the top.  At the bottom there is weak gravity and you will experience “free fall”.

We have questioned Newton’s inverse square law, how a mass half a universe away attract other mass.  Similarly, Einstein’s spatial flow is not correct.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 05/07/2020 17:59:29
Well, it is true that we all feel weight on Earth and we assume this as Gravity.  But what makes or causes or giving weight is important.  To find out truth Einstein carried out number of experiments.  It is true that there is gravity in the small region such as closed elevator and it behaves similarly to that of one on Earth.    If Mr. X is on the surface of the Earth or in closed elevator, there is no change in his weight of 75 kgs.  So, it is clear that, Gravity or the force giving you weight, need not be big one, even small one, sufficiently packed in a small area can give you the same results.

Unless there was a change in the motion of elevator, there would be no physical effect on anything that occurred inside the elevator.

Ok, let us analyse the light beam experiment, once again:
If you allowed a light beam from outside to enter one side of the elevator through a hole, and observed where it struck the wall on the other side.  If there were no relative motion of light source or the elevator, light beam will pass through the other hole.

Let us assume that the closed elevator is divided into four blocks, A,B,C,D.
If the elevator accelerates forward, relative to light source, the light beam accelerates downwards.  Let us assume that, light source is in block D, when the elevator started accelerating, light beam start moving down and crosses block D.  If the elevator accelerates further, light beam crosses even block C and enters block B.

01 In normal conditions, light travels in straight line.  When the elevator accelerates forward, light bends in opposite direction.
02  There is something moving downwards and in turn it is bending light.
03  It is also relative to acceleration or velocity.
It is nothing but Gravity only.  Here acceleration of elevator means, frame alone and in turn literally it lifts the things there in.
01  If the elevator accelerates forward, in turn it creates pressure on contents in block A.
02  As the elevator accelerates further, block A start giving pressure on block B..
03  As the density increases, weight or gravity increases.

Basic question is, what makes light beam to bend:
01  We take gravity for weight, so additional weight at the bottom tells us that there is additional gravity at the bottom, block A.
02  If the elevator accelerates forward, light beam accelerates downward.  What makes or causes the light beam to bend.
03  It is true that the elevator and the source of light is relative to each other.
03  As the elevator accelerates further, the medium i.e., causing gravity start joining at the bottom.  So, there is weak gravity at the top.
04  If light travels in straight line it must cross the other hole.  It is true that light source is relative to the elevator.
05  It is affected by the movement of Gravity.  It is true that Gravity concentration at the bottom is high when compared to the top.
06  It is the elevator that is moving up but not the Gravity and it is constant.  While moving upwards it is lifting the medium and its concentration or density increases.
07  What makes the light beam instead of flowing in a low gravity, to shift to high gravity.
08  Here, gravity or the medium is not coming down and bending the light beam.
09  It is the light beam that is changing its movement according to gravity.

Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength which can be detected by the human eye. Light exists in tiny energy packets called photons. Each wave has a wavelength or frequency.

When elevator is at rest or stationary on the ground, light is propogated in wavelength.  It is moving out through the other hole.  Now if the elevator accelerates, what makes light wavelength to change its direction.

The medium, causing gravity and light are appears to be indispensable.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: puppypower on 05/07/2020 20:47:35
Gravity is a way for matter to return to the ground state, with the ground state being the speed of light reference at the lowest energy.

If we started with the lowest energy photons, matter and anti-matter pairs will not appear until we reach the highest energy levels. Matter and mass only appear at the celling of energy. The inertial reference created by matter is also at the celling.

On the other hand, below a certain level of photon energy; say below gamma, matter and anti-matter pairs will no longer appear at any reversible equilibrium. At the lowest energy of the floor only photons exist.These move at the speed light. The speed of light is at lower potential than inertial references.

The ground state or the state of lowest mass/energy particles; floor,  are the longest wavelength photons. Infinite wavelength photons are the closest to the ground state at the speed of light.

Gravity expresses a universal movement of mass and matter toward the ground state. As mass accumulates, via gravity, the local space-time reference contracts. In the limit of the black hole, reference approach the reference of the speed of light; space-time contracts to a point-instant.

When the universe created matter, a potential was created with the ground state. The universe is lowering potential and heading back toward the ground state, in a unified way. Gravity is one way; ground state reference push. The pressure and temperature due to gravitational work also causes mass burn via fusion; mass back to energy or celling to floor. The universal red shift is energy moving in the direction of longer and longer wavelength. This is toward the direction of the infinite wavelength of the ground state. All roads head to the same place which is the direction of lowering potential with the ground state.

Current models try to make gravity an independent affect not related to the other forces in a common way, or to the universal red shift. That is vey old school and needs an update.

The second law that states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. This suggests that the ground state is place of lowest energy but the highest entropy. This can be explained with Special Relativity. At the speed of light time, distance and mass become mathematically discontinuous. Space-Time and mass breaks down at the speed of light. Space-time dissociates into separated time and separated space. At the ground state one, can move in space without the constraint of time and move in time without the constraint of space. This allows a state of infinite complexity and infinite entropy. All the energy is absorbed into entropy; ground state.

To create the universe from the ground state at the speed of light; zero available energy, all we need to do is lower, locally, from infinite entropy. This will be very exothermic. This is done by placing limits within a zone of dissociated space and time; merging time and space into space-time. Let there by light! Someday we might tap into this.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/07/2020 21:09:40
If we started with the lowest energy photons, matter and anti-matter pairs will not appear until we reach the highest energy levels. Matter and mass only appear at the celling of energy.
From the point of view of nuclear physics, what you are calling the  ceiling is pretty nearly the floor.
There are plenty of nuclear transitions with energies much greater than the MeV or so needed as the minimum for pair production.

And, it follows from that that your assertion

Gravity is a way for matter to return to the ground state, with the ground state being the speed of light reference at the lowest energy.

makes no sense.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 12/07/2020 17:44:57
It is a big question, why don’t light beam continue its journey and what makes it to be deflected from its original path?

It is true that there is gravity in the elevator.  Let us assume that the elevator is divided into four parts and there is gravity uniformly in all parts.

If you allow a light beam from one hole of the elevator and if the elevator is at rest on the ground it passes through the other hole.  The light beam is passing or moving in the block A where there is gravity.  In other words, light beam is making its journey in a gravity field.
01  There is uniform gravity in the elevator.
02  Light beam is moving from one end to the other end.
03  Gravity is facilitating or allowing light beam to pass through it.
04  Gravity is not obstructing, but allowing free movement of light through it.

If the elevator accelerates forward:
01  We are lifting the frame only and in turn it lifts the contents there in.
02  Gravity is not moving downwards.
03  When the elevator’s lower area, block D moves to block A,  Gravity continues to be rest or stationary.  As the elevator moves from one block to other, Gravity medium start merging and its density at the bottom increases.
04  Light source continues to be relative to elevator and thus there is no change or movement.
05  As the elevator accelerates, block A merges with block B and if acceleration continues, A and B merges with C.
06  Light beam propagated in Block A start moving down along with Gravity.
07  Light is coming out with certain amount of force or pressure from light source.  Light particles are not moving straight.
08  Gravity is not bending light, but light is following path of Gravity.
09  The medium giving us weight,  and  light are interlinked to each other.
10  It appears that light particles always shift from low gravity to high gravity area.
11  The medium giving you weight, appears to be one form of energy only.  Light particles easily spreads in this medium.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 12/07/2020 17:50:27
It is a big question, why don’t light beam continue its journey and what makes it to be deflected from its original path?

It isn't being deflected. Your acceleration just makes it look that way.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 12/07/2020 18:00:50
It is a big question, why don’t light beam continue its journey and what makes it to be deflected from its original path?

It isn't being deflected. Your acceleration just makes it look that way.
You believe that apple is not coming down but Earth only raising upward.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 12/07/2020 18:03:07
You believe that apple is not coming down but Earth only raising upward.

No. You were talking about an elevator, not the Earth.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 16/07/2020 17:00:35
Mr kryptid,
At present, as per our knowledge, Gravity is nothing but, what gives us weight.  In the closed elevator also there is gravity and we are able to say this, if Mr X’s weight continues to be 75 kgs  on the earth’s surface and also in the elevator.

If the elevator accelerates forward, we are lifting frame of the elevator only, in turn frame drags the things there in.

Ok, suppose that you are in a car, if the car accelerates forward, remember that it is the frame that is moving forward and in turn it drags the things there in.

From the equivalence principle it is clear that gravity can be packed and moved in a small area such as space cabin.  As long as the space ship continues its journey, space time of the cabin fails to interact with the outside space time and thus Gravity or weight continues.  Ones it reaches the destination, cabin of the space ship start interacting with outside space time and simply equates.

In the case of Car or space ship, when it accelerates forward, frame drags the things.  It is true that there is Gravity inside the car and cabin of the spaceship.  When they accelerates forward, the invisible force giving you gravity, start collecting or pooling at the bottom and it gives you equalent additional weight in the opposite direction.

If the elevator is at rest on the ground and if we pass light beam from a hole one end to the other end, it simply passes through the other hole.  Ok, if the elevator accelerates forward, there are changes in the elevator, definitely you must accept it.  When the elevator accelerates forward, light beam bends, fails to move out of the other hole.  It is proved one and is not the feeling of any body.

Basic point is, additional weight at the bottom tells you that there is additional gravity.  So, in other words, frame of the elevator, while moving up, lifting the gravity.

Do Gravity bends light:
In fact, there is weak gravity at the top of the elevator, where light beam is moving.  When gravity is weak, how it is bending light.  Further density of the Gravity is high at the bottom.  Bending of light is possible only when light passes through low gravity to high gravity.  But, here the thing is otherwise.  Light is not propagating in the low gravity area, but bending or moving itself from low gravity to high gravity.

It is true and proved that gravity bends light.  But, basic question is what makes or why should light move from low gravity to high gravity.

If the elevator accelerates forward light beam accelerates downward and it is not mine idea, but proved one.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: alancalverd on 16/07/2020 18:12:18
Mr X’s weight continues to be 75 kgs  on the earth’s surface and also in the elevator.
No. His mass remains at 75 kg all the time, but weight is the force he exerts on the floor, which varies as the lift accelerates and decelerates.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 19/07/2020 18:14:56
SPACE TIME:
As per Newton’s universe, space is flat, empty, absolute space.  He treated space as absolute entity and time always passes at the same rate.

Hermann Minkowski developed space and time in a single formulation. This provided a stage for particles to move through the Universe  and interact with one another, but it didn't include gravity.

Einstein’s  metric tensor defines how spacetime itself is curved.  Curvature again depends on the presence of matter, energy and stresses present within it.  Curvature of space time tells how matter and energy is moving through it. As per Newton's first law an object in motion will continue in motion in straight line. But in curved spacetime  an object in motion follows a geodesic, curved line, a shortest distance.

It is true that Einstein’s space time includes gravity.  But it all depends on the presence of matter and energy.  Major difference is, can we take universe as one unit.  What about solar systems.  Why the planets exists / stays within a solar system.

As per Einstein, gravity is nothing but curvature of space time.  Curvature of space time again depends on the presence of matter and energy.  Do matter and energy present everywhere in the universe equally.  If it is so, there is no need for solar system.

Basic difference in between Minkowski’s space time and Einstein’s space time is that how particles travel.  In a curved space time objects travel in geodesics.

In our solar system, matter and energy is present.  What about space in between two solar systems.  Matter curves the space time only when there is energy.  For our Solar system, Sun is an important source of energy.  For the space in between two solar systems, what about source of energy.  In other words it is empty or vacuum.  Do time dilates here also.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Alex Dullius Siqueira on 25/07/2020 00:35:53
well, right or wrong, since we do not completely understand gravity, the only thing that is left to say:
The structure of his text was pretty easy to visualize...
Since we are all emotive beings despise the effort, if we accept that we don't know to state we are right about the "not knowing", even that could, and most certainly is wrong... Still, easy to mind picture that scenario that he described.

On the shadow of that, could it be: Gravity is the weaker and also the strongest force divided or multiplied by the mass effect?
If so, on those in between SS, 2d space time, gravity would be the weakest force (in that time) as much as near the horizon of the mass effect gravity would also be the strongest force (in that time)...
If gravity were more like a tunnel then a straight line, could be the "thickness" affect it's potential?
As on when in comparison with a straight house garden hose with a coiled fire truck hose?
I mean the borrowing/releasing of energy at each intersection of the now "gravity submitted to mass effect" in contrast with the straight 2d one?
Would also be possible that even gravity being the would be strongest force, a measurement of it in micro scale even on that strong environment, would say, weakest force?
I'm not sure what I'm seeing here, I believe that the divergence has something to do with time as a multiplier and divisor, and gravity being absolute the same for both micro, macro, 2d or curved environments(spaces)...
Sry my bad English, i'm more into mind experiments,I read more curious then enthusiast ,,,
Also pondering on the possibility for gravity and time being two sides of the same coin, the mathematical and real sides of the same thing, being observed physically expressed as "is" (flat space time) and "is being" (during mass effect)
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 25/07/2020 15:52:53
well, right or wrong, since we do not completely understand gravity, the only thing that is left to say:
The structure of his text was pretty easy to visualize...
Since we are all emotive beings despise the effort, if we accept that we don't know to state we are right about the "not knowing", even that could, and most certainly is wrong... Still, easy to mind picture that scenario that he described.

Mr Alex,
As rightly accepted by Newton, there is a medium, giving or causing weight on Earth, known as Gravity.  It is true that Einstein carried out number of experiments to find out "What exactly this medium is".  But, in my opinion, whenever I go by his theory or thought experiments, i feel that it is incomplete and an unfinished agenda.

I am just trying to find out the truth, exploring the different possibilities.  I am moving with confidence, but i am not sure, whether i could present it in better way or convince others  "what exactly is gravity".

Thank you
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Alex Dullius Siqueira on 26/07/2020 00:14:02
well, right or wrong, since we do not completely understand gravity, the only thing that is left to say:
The structure of his text was pretty easy to visualize...
Since we are all emotive beings despise the effort, if we accept that we don't know to state we are right about the "not knowing", even that could, and most certainly is wrong... Still, easy to mind picture that scenario that he described.

Mr Alex,
As rightly accepted by Newton, there is a medium, giving or causing weight on Earth, known as Gravity.  It is true that Einstein carried out number of experiments to find out "What exactly this medium is".  But, in my opinion, whenever I go by his theory or thought experiments, i feel that it is incomplete and an unfinished agenda.

I am just trying to find out the truth, exploring the different possibilities.  I am moving with confidence, but i am not sure, whether i could present it in better way or convince others  "what exactly is gravity".

Thank you
Psreddy

Almost sure that the missing piece is to start to consider outside in the known universe, extrapolating some theories.
I'm starting reading on the possible explanation for the Golden Ratio, feels that the mathematics behind of it's why could crack that 2d space, curved space relation with gravity...
I've always assumed that gravity is not real as a force but as potential, and time represented as XYZ(3D space) the only real expression, gravity possible being a direct result of the "water flowing inside the coiled fire hose", gravity being the "loose ends" where time, borrowing mass for the end line of it's race(it's straight line) "reached infinity", thus it starts to fade inside of itself, tunneling it's potentiality energy into motion...
Sort of gravity represented as a firehouse coiled around earth by law due mass effect, on a rudimentary but easy to visualize approach, gravity being the shock wave produce (at each intersection the water hits the inner wall of the filing hose)...
Somehow it, again, "just feels" open to some relation with the flat configuration of the photon...
As if space has a minimal possible angle (pre-determinate on micro scale), or (determinate by local macro scale), and or (determinate by the nature of what shapes the universe itself (the edges)...
I feel that the golden ratio could match this "would be spiral flat motion"(photonic)(has poles, charges and horizon) that when submitted to "observation" by other near masses, forces one to be in correlation with one another, forcing the "is flat curved straight line reaching infinity(it's own center)" into "receiving a second reference", adding a third dimension(Z) to the flat XY, turning the act simple try to reach infinity, into propagating motion, and in the process creating a spiral tunneling effect...

Need to gather more information on the golden ratio, but there is picture of energy trying to be released from the iteration of particles alone, and it's trying to be released both as thermal radiation and light... So I must wonder that photons are the "catalyst" for gravity, more precisely... Mass being the "real" cause, and the releasing energy out of the system, into "gravity", the same one caused due mass alone, but observed wrongly from the wrong side...

As if light was the water filing the coiled hose using it to release energy from the tank, and gravity being but a convenient "sub consequent effect", happening every time  the tunneling energy hit's the mathematical borders of the theoretical tunneling effect...
Word salada, yeah I know, again, gravity would "only look like for the example" as the hose being submersed into water, and being filled with water too, suppose that the hose has 45° intersections, each time the water hits that curvature, gravity would be the "shockwave" propagated trough the pool...
On space example, I accept that the water is energy, the exterior is medium(grid), and there's only particles, mass and it doubles this two as for it's own reference, the duality causing the medium(forcing it) to waste energy over those references(A and B)...
Since there are countless references, all energy of the medium "is", and "is, will being" diminished and added to those references, if the "dot" achieves the meaning to break that "would be geometrical limitation of the curvature", it is forced to abandon macro scale, pushing all possible "energy volume available" to the exterior, creating it's own inner reference...
A an A point, that will still interact with B and be submitted to it, but that now as it's own inner reference, so it no longers can emit energy out, only thermal... As if the coiled hose has fuse itself and it's collapsing towards infinity (it's own center), not forever or to another universe, could be the case that is simple a flux of space energy,and the releasing "is right there" as ,medium, black holes being but what we know that they are, but with one distinction, they are the "engine" that is creating the medium (space) from energy...
A photonic sea of diffused energy waiting for reference to reshape near mass effect, and to also to be reabsorbed by the medium again....

Sify, need first to try understand the why of golden ratio to see better, I suppose that golden ratio will re-link with particles and math... For now I guess that golden ratio is the inevitable mathematical expression of a tunneling effect local and also everywhere...
As if black holes and inner cores ("are" would be doing without protective matter) destroy matter's own reference, and release it as medium (space), the tunneling effect being the whole galaxy on micro scale, still a macro replica of the same tunneling happening on micro scale with particles, with the only difference that particles spiral flat and black holes on 3D using themselves as reference... More simple, particles are loose ends and need to borrow energy and references to do so, their configuration is always incomplete, never reaching infinity, so the tunneling effect is more like a flow. Black holes for their turns, "cheated" offering a mass without any empty volume as inner reference, "anything" near them "assume to have reached infinity", obviously it's almost the same behavior of a planet for things can orbit them, still I'm not aiming matter, but space itself... As for space, blackholes are infinity and so it's rushed towards it, also planets are infinity, but apparently planets "push it back" in a different manner, concealing the same effect inside their mass, but away from the medium, delayed enough away from it, conveniently adverting the violent side of BH... Also seems more than convenient, planets would not be able to reform if the inner core was to BH for a few instants, meaning that they would not be able to reform themselves, is to say that new planets would be impossible to form... Sometimes "feels" designed to be like this...
Again once we are a byproduct of the whole, is kind of inevitable to not feel that way...

I wan't to know what lies beyond the theoretical borders, + 1 light year...
My guess? Universe is a big galaxy, but if so, why there is a breaking limit for ratio?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 26/07/2020 15:54:19
Do Acceleration and gravity indistinguishable
“Imagine waking up in a spaceship, accelerating through space. Just as you’re pushed back in the seat of an accelerating car, the accelerating spaceship pushes you to the side opposite the one it’s accelerating towards. At a certain rate of acceleration, a set of scales could tell you that you weigh exactly the same as you do when you’re at home on Earth”.

Einstein realised that the effects of acceleration and gravity were indistinguishable too. This is called the equivalence principle .

This is an wonderful imagination of Einstein.  However he did not notice some of the important points.
01  It is true that cabin of the space ship is closed here on Earth only.
02  It is also true that there is Gravity in the cabin and the weight of the one of the crew Mr. “X” is 75 kgs only. There is no change in his weight, on Earth and also inside the cabin.
03  This clearly shows that, the medium or the agent causing gravity is not related to Earth or space.
04  If it is due to Earth, immediately on closing the cabin, there must be difference.  No such noticeable difference.
05  If it is a spatial flow, in such case also there must be difference, on closing the cabin of the space ship.  No such difference.

If you are in a car or cabin of the space ship accelerating forward, you will be pushed back:
01  Einstein did not pay attention to this important point.
02  If the Car or space ship accelerates forward what pushes you back.
03  It is true that the medium or gravity, giving you weight is there in the car or cabin of the space ship.
04  Einstein forget or did not notice that, it is the frame of the car or frame of the cabin that is being pushed.  In turn, frame drags the contents i.e., human beings, contents therein including the medium causing gravity.  Initially it is the frame that moves forward and then, literally it lifts or drags the contents.
05   When the space ship accelerates forward, you will be pushed back, why and what pushes you back.  Einstein pointed out this important point, but left it.  When the space ship accelerates forward, initially, the medium or agent causing gravity is at rest or stationary.  It is the frame that lifts it and in turn,  medium start collecting at the bottom and gives you additional weight.

It clearly throws light on some of the important qualities of this medium:
01  It is true that there is gravity inside the cabin of the space ship when closed.
02  When the space ship accelerates forward, cabin drags the contents, resulting in additional concentration of gravity at the bottom.
03  This is evident when you are pushed back.
04  So, concentration or density of this medium decides gravity at a place.  When the cabin is locked,  gravity spread uniformly. As the space ship accelerates forward, medium density at the bottom increases resulting in additional gravity.
05  But, one’s the space ship attains velocity, this medium again adjusts uniformly.
06  When the space ship accelerates forward, gravity collects at the bottom shows that this medium itself carry weight.  This is the reason, density of this medium is high on earth’s surface.
07  If the density of this medium at a place increases it results in most curved or increase of gravity.

Do Acceleration creates / generates Gravity:
This is another wrong assumption of Einstein.
01  It is true that cabin of the space ship is packed in a strong gravity field only.
02  It is also proved that there is Gravity in the closed cabin.
03  When space ship accelerates forward, no additional or new gravity is  generated in the cabin.

Basic doubt of Einstein is that:
01  The space ship is far away from gravitational mass, still there is Gravity.
02  Einstein thought that acceleration is warping the space time.
03  That is untrue.  There is no proof that acceleration warping or generating gravity. If that is true, there must be change in the gravity field inside the cabin of the space ship.  No such thing hinted or found.
04  If the cabin of the space ship is locked in a non-gravity field and if acceleration generates or creates gravity, then we can say that  Einstein is 100% correct.

The cabin of the space ship is closed in a gravity field and there is gravity in the cabin.  As the space ship accelerates forward, cabin of the space ship fails to interact with the space time and thus Gravity is intact.  One’s the acceleration stops or engine stops, space time of the cabin interacts with the outside space time and this medium simply neutralizes.

It is clear, when the space ship accelerates forward, gravity collecting at the bottom shows that the density of the medium is high and it also carry weight.
01  It is true that there is gravity inside the cabin of the space ship and Mr “X’s” weight continues to be 75 Kgs only.
02  So, Gravity is not due to the attraction of mass or flow of space time.  Without relevance to anything, it is present on Earth.
03  The density or presence of this medium itself is gravity.
04  Generally, this medium itself is heavier, low concentration or density, no gravity, from medium concentration onwards gravity develops.
05  It is moving towards Earth, not due to attraction but, since it is heavier.
06  As said by Einstein it is also matter blind.
07  Since this medium carry weight, continuously it exerts pressure on the existing medium or gravity present against Earth’s surface, it appears that it is a spatial flow.

This is a game changer to Einstein relativity and Einstein himself also proclaimed it as “happiest thought” of his life.
It is 100% correct and there is no doubt about that one.  However, let us analyze the same in our context.
01  The medium, giving you weight is already present in the space time of the Earth.
02  Since it is heavier, it continuously exerts pressure against the medium that is already present on Earth’s surface.
03  When a person dives in from higher altitude, he moves along with the medium and thus experience no weight.
04  It is not a spatial flow.  But its source is outside only.
05  It appears that Earth is having doors and windows and they are not allowing free movement of this medium.
06  When the space ship accelerates, gravity concentration at the bottom increases and pushes you back.  But as the space ship attains velocity, this medium or gravity neutralizes.

So, Finally climate is paving way for additional concentration of this medium or gravity.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Alex Dullius Siqueira on 26/07/2020 23:17:33
you're suggesting that the medium reads dense matter(earth) as a "hole" on it's fabric, and thus constantly trying to fill it... Electromagnetic forces/atomic forces, fight back, or more likely, use this medium attempt to their own benefit, not being able to collapse, they start to spin, not from themselves as their properties are, but their motion a physical representation of this medium?
Something like that?

If so, gravity should be greater at the points where the extraction of energy is greater, planets, heavy particles, and blackholes?
Would this medium be "falling" (accelerating faster in time) to close such "gaps" within it's tissue?

Or perhaps, but a complex geometrical shape for empty volume in occurrence in between A-B? Could this medium be ever present as a energy grid but diluted due universal expansion(acceleration)? as if everything stops moving, the nature of the medium would be physically revealed, as everything would simple instantly be undone due absolute heat...  Could be the acceleration s "draining" this medium reducing temperatures, as masses or point's the medium sees as infinity for it to collapse(fill), heat up due lack of acceleration?

I'm wondering what theoretically happens to space on black holes?
, geometry or thermal? As if the neutron star is not a neutron star at all, but a pace where the universal acceleration can no longer reach. A center away from space physical interaction, due geometry space has become impossible to touch(reach) that center... But instead of spinning neutron star, space is sniping along with the matter it is digesting, but inside the center, nothing but a hole, direct access to this medium...  It would be something if the medium proved to b true, and owner of all energy, and particles but different scales in time producing different energy frequencies... So anything that we tough that has ever spin or had properties would be just borrowing...

Any idea of the nature of this medium? Electrical?

If universe as we see would be just as a cabin accelerating over this medium, and if true that universe originated from a single point accelerating expanding over this medium. Would make sense (maybe just convenience) that anything on the reverse would give access to the medium as it is... Unobservable and only possible delayed apart from acceleration, as much as for the traveling ship?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 01/08/2020 14:27:13
you're suggesting that the medium reads dense matter(earth) as a "hole" on it's fabric, and thus constantly trying to fill it... Electromagnetic forces/atomic forces, fight back, or more likely, use this medium attempt to their own benefit, not being able to collapse, they start to spin, not from themselves as their properties are, but their motion a physical representation of this medium?
Something like that?

Ok, we will discuss about medium at a later date.  Basically it is equivalence principle, which is base for general relativity and Gravity to be decided first.

"An elevator that accelerates upwards at 9.8 m/s2 will see everything within it be accelerated downward towards the floor at that same rate: 9.8 m/s2. When you're in a vehicle that rapidly accelerates (and you feel yourself pushed back into your seat) or decelerates (that thrusts you forward), you're experiencing similar effects to what someone inside the accelerating elevator will feel".

It is true that it is the elevator accelerating forward.  But what is accelerating downwards.  Simply saying that it is due to  Newton's second law, F=ma is incorrect.  When the elevator accelerates forward, something is accelerating downwards, pushing you in opposite direction.

01  It is true that there is Gravity inside the elevator and Mr.'X's weight is 75 kgs.
02  There is every need to understand that we are moving frame only.  For better understanding, take the example that you are in a car.  You are moving the frame of the car and in turn frame drags the contents there in including yourselves.
03  When the car is at rest or stationary, gravity or medium causing gravity is spread uniformly.
04  As the car accelerates forward, the medium, giving you weight continues to be at rest only.
05  As the car moves forward, things within the car faces additional medium, and thus boosting of gravity at the edges.
06  Additional gravity at the edges, pushes you backward.
07  One's the car attains  velocity, things comes to normal.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: puppypower on 01/08/2020 23:10:54
Gravity acts on mass, to lower the space that is occupied by the mass. This is true for both non relativistic, as well as  relativistic space. The apple falls to the earth to further compact the mass, reducing the total space requirement, While enough collection of mass compaction will case space to compact even further due to relativity.

This contraction of space, due to mass and gravity, heads local space in the direction of the speed of light reference. In the speed of light reference, space becomes a point. Gravity moves mass in the general direction of the speed of light reference.This is because the speed of light reference is the ground state of the universe; lowest potential.

Another observation with gravity is although non relativistic space; higher density, and relativistic space both compact; space-time contraction, the time aspect of space-time behaves differently when acted upon by gravity.

The relativistic time will slow, but the non relativistic expressions of time; matter based transitional  frequencies will speed up. The mass of the sun will cause the space within the core of the sun to slow time, via space-time. However the matter in the core although lowering space gets hotter and moves and vibrates faster. Gravity impacts space consistently one way,; compaction, but gravity  impacts time in two opposing ways. The units of acceleration due to gravity is d/t/t or is one part distance and two parts time.

This odd ball aspect of time, which differs from the direction of non relativistic space and relativistic space-time, is connected to entropy. The material heat and speeding up of vibrational time causes phase changes that increase complexity. This will resist the movement of gravity toward the ground state. A burning star is fluffier within space because of the speeding up aspect of non relativistic time and how time integrates with space. This aspect of gravity is often left out of the analysis, even though gravity creates the affect. The solar wind adds apace to the sun.

We live in a universe that is undergoing an accelerated expansion. This is one part distance and three parts time. d/t/t/t. I call this time-space. Time is not one thing but have three separate parts, two of which are provided by gravity.

0-D time is a point in time. 1-D time is a time line, such as velocity; SR. 2-D time is an acceleration such as due to gravity; GR, while 3-D time is an acceleration of an acceleration. In time-space, time becomes the 3-D coordinate system that measures three layers of action within radial space. Space-time is (x,y,z,t ), while time-space is( t1, t2, t3, r)  If we combine these space-time becomes  6-D or (x,y,z,t1,t2,t3).This tells us exact position in space as well as the total time potential in 3-D time. Modern physics does not do very much with t3, but t3 can add entropy and randomness leading to furthering complexity. If used in conjunction with t1 and t2 provided by gravity, complexity can mean improvements and not just random change.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2020 23:27:00
The material heat and speeding up of vibrational time causes phase changes that increase complexity.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 02/08/2020 07:30:01
Gravity acts on mass, to lower the space that is occupied by the mass. This is true for both non relativistic, as well as  relativistic space. The apple falls to the earth to further compact the mass, reducing the total space requirement, While enough collection of mass compaction will case space to compact even further due to relativity.

This contraction of space, due to mass and gravity, heads local space in the direction of the speed of light reference. In the speed of light reference, space becomes a point. Gravity moves mass in the general direction of the speed of light reference.This is because the speed of light reference is the ground state of the universe; lowest potential.

Another observation with gravity is although non relativistic space; higher density, and relativistic space both compact; space-time contraction, the time aspect of space-time behaves differently when acted upon by gravity.
Effects of Gravity, OK.
But, "what exactly is gravity".

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 02/08/2020 08:33:39
“An elevator that accelerates upwards at 9.8 m/s2 will see everything within it be accelerated downward towards the floor at that same rate: 9.8 m/s2”.

Ok, if it accelerates downward, relatively everything within it moves in opposite direction i.e., upward direction.

When the Elevator accelerates upward, gravity is moving down and if the elevator accelerates downward, gravity is moving upward.  Here Gravity or the medium is not moving up or down, but it is the frame that lifts it, leading to additional concentration of gravity in opposite direction.

The object or the medium, giving you weight is changing its direction when the elevator moves up or down.

To change direction, the object or the medium must carry weight by itself.  If it is lighter,  then,  there is no scope for its additional concentration or boosting at a place.  So, its very presence itself is the Gravity.  It need not exert force or pressure against you, very presence itself is the gravity.

You are experiencing weight, since you are living in this gravity field.  If you move away from this field, simply, there is no gravity at all.

This object or medium or gravity is heavier and therefore its concentration is high on the surface of the Earth and diminishes as we move up.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Alex Dullius Siqueira on 02/08/2020 15:18:16
01  It is true that there is Gravity inside the elevator and Mr.'X's weight is 75 kgs.
This "inside"/ "outside" restrictions is what do not match the picture here...
Shouldn't be such a thing.
Unless, on a short version, gravity on space is electromagnetic based.
And "our" gravity here, more atmospheric related.

What I mean if there is an inside and or outside something, and that truth is unrelated with gravity.
Gravity could be derivative from geometrical shapes, as if matter tied together "offers" a "minimal" margin, volume for "medium", only that on this case, medium would be the effect caused due density...
Trying to picture, that anything "dense" enough to be away from "medium" and or "not submitted to it by shape, would be "gravity less"
As a _-_- - - - - - - - - - - line would "inevitably be" submitted to "medium" either by existence or by possibility.
While a dot configuration, or perhaps each (-) individual dot, smallest most dense structures, would not...

Not sure yet, thought experimentation do not account for math...

1-One is inside a box submersed into water.
2-The box is empy and it's wall have the smallest possible distances in between each hole.
3-The box have thickness granted "in time" only due the fact that the box is accelerating"
4-The box doesn't consider to be accelerating on it's own, the medium(pool) is the thing fluxing around the box.
5-Accelerating only from A in comparison to B.
6-This acceleration not as a straight line, more like a flux, as the water is constantly "rushing" to close the hole that the box represents on it's 2d plane.
7-Medium(water) into trying to fall over the "elevator" collides with many "micro elevators"(particles)/Matter.
8-The collisions within the different angles and interacting with each others, permeate, mixing totterer, to the point the gravity "inside"(while there is none) is taking more "time" to rush out of the box, and what was other wise spread, a sphere fluxing from inside out without a single broken fold, become a more flat shape (disk).
9- The horizon starts to add a 4D dimension and starts to organised all the waves together on a 2d plane.
10- On the act of doing so, the medium is also blended and elongated (the geometry of it) and from box starts to become rounded...
11- I mean the new 4D horizon is forming on the present moment in time that the box is moving away from it, due "external sources", so I assume the horizon keeps constantly reforming at the rate the elevator is being lifted.
An "incomplete" sphere(disk for a 2d plane) while having it's center relocated in time (y) would behave more like a spiral (interference on the geometry/medium), elevator is squared and fixed, thus it's "apart" from what's truly going on there"
A drop of Rain would be more precise, but too flexible, plasma would be the best thing to observe, as for what i'm suggesting is likely not be seeing, by impossibility, as if the act of trying it would ruin it..

I guess the image is, the interaction in between different particles, and their configurations, force medium to "fill the gap" as it reads it as a 3d object now that it's shaped, and by the "time" the tick hit's the designated spot, it's unable to locate it, still the attempt remained, as a "loose end wave/dot" as a wave inside an pool, ever propagating "by chance" not by the existence of anything in witch into propagate to...

Has for now: "the configuration of matter" create loose ends within the medium, dot particles as while the frame they occur, and wave on the previous frame, also waves on the future frame, past and future being only relevant from the angle one is looking, wouldn't matter if the direction as outside in, and is inside out simultaneously, or very quick updated...
if nothing else, I believe would be: Medium takes a certain amount of "micro geometrical distances" into interacting with the elevator, as this happens, the "would be inner box" starts to behave like a 2d plane, and the box itself due drag "in time" starts to fluctuate (take a ride) on the bouncing wave itself is causing (against the moving water)...

Not sure... I feel like about 100% the only problem there is the "inside/outside" perception...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 02/08/2020 16:04:39
What I mean if there is an inside and or outside something, and that truth is unrelated with gravity.
Gravity could be derivative from geometrical shapes, as if matter tied together "offers" a "minimal" margin, volume for "medium", only that on this case, medium would be the effect caused due density...

It is true that equivalence principle is the base for "what exactly is gravity".  But without having sufficient or correct idea on 'what exactly is gravity', it is like constructing a beautiful house without base.

Mr Alex, tell me, can this geometry gives us a perfect idea on gravity.  Ok,  famous notation, "matter tells space time how to curve and curved space time tells matter how move".    How matter tells space time to curve.  What is being curved.  How this curved space time influences matter in turn.

It is true that it is a change from Newton's inverse square law.  We are discussing, black holes in depth.  Further it is a big topic, measuring event horizon, can light escapes, and what happens if you dives into a black hole.  We also discuss about expansion or contraction of universe in a big way.

But, in exact terms, we don't know, "what exactly is giving you weight" on this Earth.

When it is nor clear, we follow, Newton's inverse square law.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Alex Dullius Siqueira on 02/08/2020 16:40:37
"matter tells space time how to curve and curved space time tells matter how move"

Space is but empty volume, feels more geometrical and only exist in our minds, while observing A-B-Z.
Collide every matter together, no space no more, still...
I understand what you mean, and it's truth, are but ideas, I'm, based o your posts, starting to consider gravity as "potential", as much as if earth and Jupiter were one and the same, as the space in between them just empty volume, permeated by "wherever" from time to time...
If there's a necessity for another external factor to fill the gap, maybe by convenience, I'd blame our senses, left right, Y,X, from here to there or there to somewhere else, as distinct things...
Gravity is interference wouldn't also suffice... (on what?)
If one is the same, and there's no room for gravity, gravity would have always being space as it is, on a miss interpretation that it must be something, cause we may have named it... the speed of a shadow
and all that "gravity" does, is but other forces permeating to empty volume.

Can't answer. Still I got the point, and is right, i'm afraid the whole line would be wrong, for if everything is possible we would have already, unless we do...
Many users here and there, almost everyone has a "possible" way how gravity would be, non is correct... makes wonder
Gravity as a derivation of other forces, a "potential" into be, something that can't be everlasting a moment in time...
Only thing comes to mind in terms of "Sustaining an impossibility" would be geometrical and requiring time so to exist...
Something that could be, will become, but never is, should be potential, a reaction of something that is...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: puppypower on 02/08/2020 23:26:11
This is a startling misunderstanding of some basic concepts.  If matter is heated then the atoms move faster the black body radiation frequency increases but time is unaffected!  Frequency is not time, does that really need to be pointed out?

Frequency is 1/time. Atomic clocks, for example, depend on the precise frequency of specific atoms to set the pace of time. These transitional frequencies set a tempo for time in terms of transitional states. These " natural second hands", so to speak, speed up in the center of a star, even though space-time is slowing in time due to GR. There are two difference type of clocks, one for motion and the other for phase changes and entropy. Gravity does both. Space-Time alone tells us nothing of fusion, since you need the other clock for that. Gravity does both.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: puppypower on 03/08/2020 12:37:02

Gravity acts on mass, to lower the space that is occupied by the mass. This is true for both non relativistic, as well as  relativistic space. The apple falls to the earth to further compact the mass, reducing the total space requirement, While enough collection of mass compaction will case space to compact even further due to relativity.

This contraction of space, due to mass and gravity, heads local space in the direction of the speed of light reference. In the speed of light reference, space becomes a point. Gravity moves mass in the general direction of the speed of light reference.This is because the speed of light reference is the ground state of the universe; lowest potential.

Another observation with gravity is although non relativistic space; higher density, and relativistic space both compact; space-time contraction, the time aspect of space-time behaves differently when acted upon by gravity.
Effects of Gravity, OK.
But, "what exactly is gravity".

In the lab, matter and antimatter pairs form only at highest energies. If we started with radio waves, then microwaves, then visible light, then UV, then x-rays, then gamma rays, matter and anti-matter pairs will not appear until gamma and beyond. Matter and mass appear at the upper limits of energy. Matter and mass exist at the energy ceiling of the universe, while all energy photons less than gamma, which is most of our universe, are the energy floor and walls.

Our universe is currently matter with very little anti-matter. Without anti-matter to help matter lower potential in a direct way; annihilation, matter has to lower potential, from the ceiling, in a piecemeal fashion. Gravity is one way to do this. If antimatter was still plentiful, as matter, gravity would not be needed to lower potential. Matter and antimatter would find each other using unified forces.

When mass clusters due to gravity, local spacetime contracts. As we add more and more mass contraction moves the local space-time reference toward the speed of light reference. At the speed of light, reference becomes a point-instant. The black hole is close to this. The speed of light reference is the floor, and  mass cannot go there since it contains too much potential.

Mass, via gravity, is trying to return to the speed of light reference; convert back to energy. However, mass cannot reach that reference, since anti-matter is not there. However, as gravity contracts space-time, the frequency aspect of time is getting faster and faster. The goal of this secondary time is to increase frequency to gamma and beyond, hoping to catalyze itself with new matter and antimatter. This usually falls short, but does burn some mass back to energy via fusion. There are cases where this does occur; boom!

If we look at matter and anti matter, they are equal and opposite. Positive and negative charge are also equal and opposite. To give one a feel for the impact of the loss of anti-matter, say instead of losing antimatter, we lost negative charge.. Now we have a mono-pole of just positive charge.

If we restrict space, so the positive charge cannot expand to lower potential, the charge repulsion, that was once neutralized by negative charge, is now unopposed. This will heat up the positive charge making it even more potent in terms of total potential. The mono-pole will now have both energies but in a new way. Energy is conserved. This does not increase positive charge, but it does create heat for entropy to act. Now we get inflation and the second law appears.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/08/2020 12:44:49
Do you realise that things like
At the speed of light, reference becomes a point-instant.
and

Without anti-matter to help matter lower potential in a direct way; annihilation, matter has to lower potential, from the ceiling, in a piecemeal fashion.

don't actually mean anything?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: puppypower on 04/08/2020 12:08:02
Einstein said that the laws of physics are the same in all references.  Space-time reference is a human construct to help orientate the mind for observation. The law of physics are not dependent on this construct. Reference is dependent on the observer; psychological.

In the case of acceleration due to gravity; d/t/t, acceleration has two distinct units of time, one for reference; d/t and one for the laws of physics;1/t.  The second unit of time; reciprocal of time,  is connected to frequency. Frequency tells us the state of matter independent of what any reference thinks it sees.

For example, if we have matter immersed in IR frequencies, the bonds of chemical matter will vibrate. If these IR photos appear to red shift or blue shift because of our  moving reference frame, the matter does not change its state and act as though there are now radio waves or microwaves. That is a reference illusion caused by the light changing because of reference. The law of physics for the matter remain the same based on the local 1/t, which in this case remains IR.

The whistle of the moving train is set at a given frequency. It may appear to dopplar shift differently if it move away or toward us. This is an audio reference illusion, since the laws of physics that define the whistle frequency output will remain the same. To define the universe as it is, we need this second aspect of time. Without it we will get into trouble due to  relative reference illusions that  we think are defining the states of matter. This can mess up energy and entropy balances. These do not change because of reference.

Gravity is a good example of this affect. The center of gravity will have time slowing in terms of reference. But the laws of physics are inducing fusion which requires a platform of much faster frequency. Which is real and which is an illusion? Both exist side by side; space-time and 1/time.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/08/2020 12:43:24
Frequency tells us the state of matter independent of what any reference thinks it sees.
Bollocks.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Alex Dullius Siqueira on 08/08/2020 15:10:29
any chances that what we "see" as light speed, or speed of light to be no "speed" at all?
What if by geometry, photon could be, avoiding time influence, and the traveling thing is the particle photon taking a ride on a geometrical wave of probability?

Could be that space is at C while light is just taking a ride along with it, that specific frame in time which it had originated?

Or there's anything that undoubtedly, states: Light speed is a speed because...?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/08/2020 16:16:14
any chances that what we "see" as light speed, or speed of light to be no "speed" at all?
What if by geometry, photon could be, avoiding time influence, and the traveling thing is the particle photon taking a ride on a geometrical wave of probability?

Could be that space is at C while light is just taking a ride along with it?

Or there's anything that undoubtedly, states: Light speed is a speed because...?
It is true that we are taking speed of light as constant.  We also know that Gravity slows down movement of light and bends light.  So, speed of light is different from gravity to non-gravity field.  But it is surprise to me:
01  It is true that there is gravity inside the closed elevator.
02  If the light beam is released from a hole on one side of the elevator certainly it moves out through the other hole.
03  If the elevator accelerates forward, it is the frame that is being lifted, in other words, in turn it lifts the gravity field inside the elevator.
04  Gravity at the bottom becomes dense or stronger.
05  While coming down, gravity drags light beam.  Light beam also accelerates downward.
06  When the light source is constant, what makes the light beam to change its position.
07  If the light is independent, nothing can stop it moving straight.
08  If there is a change or bend, while moving in a gravity field, certainly we can say that gravity bends light.
09  But light is changing its path according to gravity.
Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 09/08/2020 17:41:33
One can measure the gravitational force in the same way we have quantified other forces, using a spring arrangement, instead of pulling on the spring, we simply attach an object and let gravity do the pulling. The
elongation of the spring tells us the strength of the gravitational force pulling the object towards the ground.

This gravitational force is called the object’s weight.

Acceleration = Force / (inertial Mass).
For the acceleration to be the same for all objects, the force must depend on the object’s mass, more concretely: the gravitational force, e.g. the one exerted by Earth on each falling objects, needs to be proportional to each object’s mass. Written as a formula,

Gravitational force = Mass • g,

Where g is a factor that does not depends on any of the object’s intrinsic properties. If this formula holds, then, when we calculate the acceleration, the following happens:

Acceleration = Gravitational force / Mass = (Masse • g) / Masse = g

The quantity g is known as the gravitational acceleration, and its value is approximately the same on (and near) the surface of the Earth.

It is true that there is Gravity inside the closed elevator and the person inside the elevator experiences the same weight as he would on the surface of the Earth.

If the elevator accelerates forward, the person inside the elevator will be pushed back.  In other words, there is additional gravity.  Where this gravity came from.

If it is an attraction of Earth, there must be change in gravity from closed elevator to open elevator.  If it is a spatial flow, as usual, there must be change, closed elevator to open elevator.  Besides that, scope for change of gravity inside the elevator is also ruled out.

Then, what made or how the Gravity field inside the elevator is changed.

It helps us to analyse that:
01  Gravity field, giving you weight can be quantified.  There is Gravity inside the closed elevator.
02  When the elevator accelerates forward, the field is changing its position.
03  Additional Gravity is giving additional weight and it tells us that the medium or the quantified Gravity field itself has weight.
04  As the density of the gravity field changes, it itself exerts additional force or pressure on objects, resulting in Gravity.
05  If the medium is weak, there is no gravity and if the density increases, weight increases, in turn creates pressure on objects, which is known as Gravity.
06  In other words, density of this medium is weak on Moon and is strong on Earth.  By all means, its density is highest on Sun’s surface.

Further it is also proved that there is gravity, inside the spaceship cabin, which is far away from gravitational masses.  Actually it is a wrong assumption of Einstein that acceleration creates or generates gravity field inside the cabin.  It is true that there is strong Gravity field on Earth’s surface.  When the cabin of the spaceship is packed, knowingly or unknowingly, a part of this Gravity field is also packed and it continues till the spaceship comes to rest or stationary.

Undoubtedly, it is clear that Gravity is not due to masses or not a spatial flow.  It is a field created on the Earth.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 09/08/2020 23:07:54
Undoubtedly, it is clear that Gravity is not due to masses

Not clear at all, actually.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 11/08/2020 14:12:14
Undoubtedly, it is clear that Gravity is not due to masses

Not clear at all, actually.
At times, surprisingly, you will be asking, something basic, yet it carries meaning.

“Theoretically, you could be in deep space, far away from all significant mass concentrations and their gravitational influence. The rocket engine of the observer’s spaceship is firing and produces an acceleration of 9.8 meters (32 feet) per square second. This accelerated observer feels as heavy as we would feel on earth, since the gravitational acceleration with which an object on earth falls to the ground has that exact same value”.

This is Einstein's theory or idea only.  Imagine that space ship is in deep space, far away from all mass concentration.  Yet, as long as the engine fires, person inside the cabin of the space ship, feels as heavy as he on Earth's surface.  In other words there is gravity inside the cabin of the space ship, why?.

It is a direct question to Newton's inverse square law.  When the space ship is far away, deep space, why, there is no change in gravity.

That is true.  But, equally, if it is a spatial flow, how there is gravity inside the cabin of the space ship in deep space.  Einstein's Equivalence Principle  equated the effects of  gravitational field to the effects of being in an accelerated frame of reference.

That is not at all correct.  It is true that cabin of the space ship is closed in a gravitational field and undoubtedly there is Gravity.  As the space ship accelerates forward, no sign of decrease or increase of gravity inside the cabin.  As long as the engine of the space ship is on, it is accelerating forward.  Mean while interaction with the outside space time is impossible.  For that close the cabin of the space ship in a non-gravity field, and if the acceleration, due to thrust of the engine or whatever it may, creates or develops gravity and if the person inside the cabin of the spaceship, feels as heavy as he would on Earth, i am sure that i will accept it.

Basic doubt of the Einstein is that, space ship is far away from all masses, still there is gravity inside the cabin, how and what produced or warped it.

It is true that cabin of the space ship is closed in a gravity field.  Even after closing the cabin, there is strong gravity.  This tells us that, in a small area such as cabin, gravity can be quantified.  Besides that it gives same effects as it does on Earth's surface.

Gravity is not attraction of masses and the same time is not a spatial flow.  It is a field present on the surfaces of the masses, definitely, not all the masses.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 11/08/2020 18:10:48
Mr Kryptid,

Let me share, some of the incidents / things happened in the early school days i.e., 7th standard onwards.  I was not accepting  what the teacher says in the class.  Every day,  in the evening, i used to go for revision of the same lesson.  Besides that, I use to rewrite the same lesson, incorporating mine idea.  It is true that, at that age I should not have done or gone by that way.

Some of the important theories, attempted or rewritten by me in the early school days.

01  Atomic explosion:  For me, it is an important point.  Basic doubt is that, fissile material used in an atom bomb is very small.  Besides that, potential energy stored in the fissile material is very, very small.  How this small amount of energy, when released  is multiplying.  It is true that total energy is not coming from the atomic bomb.  If the total energy is packed within the atomic bomb, how it is stable.

If the explosion or chain reaction slows down, there is no impact of explosion.  Nature absorbs the energy released from the atom bomb and impact is neutralized.  So, to get the best results, it must be exploded within short time.  So, here time is the key player.

So, slow release of energy is not showing any impact and it all depends on the sudden and abrupt release of energy within short time  plays key role and total energy is not coming from the atomic bomb.

02  Light:  For me, is also an interest topic.  If we switch on a battery cell light spreads to wide area.  Here total potential energy is not used at a time, still it is being converted into lot of kinetic energy.  Potential energy is being released slowly in an orderly manner and the conversion into light energy continues.

If we switch on an electric bulb, same results.  Here also energy is released slowly and the conversion continues.

In both the cases, total light energy is not coming from the source.  Small amount of energy released is being converted into light energy only after coming out from the source.   We have only invented technique or method of converting into light energy.  But total energy is not coming from the source.

03  Magnetic Fields:  It is true that charged particles create magnetic fields.  A wire carrying current generates magnetic field around the wire.  It is due to displacement of electrons inside the wire.

To create magnetic field, electrons must be displaced regularly and also in lot of quantity.  If the same thing happens, flow of electricity must be stopped within short area.  But it is not happening so.

Fewer electrons released are charging and developing an electric field. Similarly, here also, magnetic field is not due to the current flowing in the wire, a few electrons flowing, charges the space and it is being known as magnetic field.

04  Fire:  Fire is a chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light.  You can cause fire by igniting combustible materials.  I still remember simple incident happened, between me and teacher on a simple experiment.  He lighted a candle and closed it by a glass and when fire put off, he started explaining how things need oxygen to burn.

Suddenly, I had raised a doubt, why don’t you think that the glass is turning out as an obstruction in between.  That day, it was a big topic.

05  Gravity:  It is another important and endless topic.

Kryptid, due to this type of thinking, I lost control over main subject, lost future and settled as a clerk in Bank.

It true that, life is short and a doubt remained in my mind, whether I could tell these things to the outside world or not.

Really, I would like to say thanks to “naked scientists forum” Management, for allowing me to share these ideas to the outside world.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 11/08/2020 23:09:09
It is a field present on the surfaces of the masses, definitely, not all the masses.

Can you give an example of a mass that has been confirmed to not have gravity?

What's frustrating is that you have consistently refused to learn. Your last post brings up things that you have brought up in the past multiple times and that have been adequately explained. Why you won't accept those explanations is beyond me. Having new ideas is one thing, but stubbornly hanging on to new ideas that contradict existing evidence is something else altogether...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/08/2020 16:09:29
Matter tells space how to curve, and curved space tells matter how to move. That's the basic principle behind Einstein's General Relativity, which linked, for the first time, the phenomenon of gravity with that of spacetime and relativity.

If mass curves or distorts the space time, it must be clear, what is being curved or distorted and the area or place up to which to curves or distorts.

Science developed a lot and we know that there are 9 planets in our solar system.  Well, it is true that all the planets curves the space time around them, i.e., Gravity.  Sun is at the centre and other planets are rotating against their axis and also going round the Sun.

If each planet curves or distort the space time around them, they must act independently and there is no need for them to go around the Sun.  But it is not happening so.  Sun curved or distorted space time up to the end of the solar system and these planets are only existing or curving the space time already curved or distorted by Sun.  What is the basic difference in between, space time curved by Sun and other planets.

So, we can take Sun as the independent planet and other planets as dependent.  Here important point is what makes Sun to be independent.  If this problem is resolved,  it gives clear idea on "what exactly is gravity".

Place a mass down anywhere in the Universe, and in turn it curves or distorts space time around them, which is known as gravity.  It must be clear that what is being curved or distorted.  We don’t know what space fabric consists of.

Need not worry, if there is no answer we go for Newton’s inverse square law, which opts or fits in every aspect.  It is true that, Newton’s theory is incorrect, yet we follow it, as Einstein’s theory is incomplete.

Mass curving the space time is different to Gravity.  Though each and every mass curves the space time, we cannot take it as gravity.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/08/2020 17:36:36
What is the basic difference in between, space time curved by Sun and other planets.

The Sun has far, far more mass than the planets. That's why the planets orbit it and not the other way around.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/08/2020 18:00:28
What is the basic difference in between, space time curved by Sun and other planets.

The Sun has far, far more mass than the planets. That's why the planets orbit it and not the other way around.
Is it mass alone, not the curved space time.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/08/2020 18:15:00
Free fall, Elevator and space station:

Let us Imagine that you are in a closed elevator and it is accelerating downwards.
01  It is true that you are in a gravity field.
02  You are  moving along with the elevator, in other words you are in a free fall.
03  Though you are in a strong gravity field, you are escaping gravity.
04  Here, all other objects moving along with you are also in free fall.

Now imagine that you are in an international space station:
01  The space station along with you is in free fall.
02  It is moving, in an weightless condition around the Earth.

Now we are comparing free fall in an elevator to free fall in a space station.  Is it correct?.
01  “Free fall” in an elevator is in a gravity field.
02  Here, “free fall” is escaping gravity.
03  Besides that, elevator is moving towards the centre of the Earth.
04  But the space station is already in a gravity free place.
05  When there is no gravity, what is there escaping.
06 Further the space station is moving around the Earth.

So, comparison is incorrect.  Basic question is?.
What makes the space station to move along with Earth is important.  There is no free fall here.  There is something, which is causing Earth to move is also causing space station to go round the Earth.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/08/2020 20:39:43
Is it mass alone, not the curved space time.

The curvature of space is directly proportional to the mass.

01  It is true that you are in a gravity field.

No. It's just that you can't distinguish acceleration in an elevator from being stationary on a planet's surface. They are not literally 100% the same thing. In order to feel "gravity" in an elevator in free space, you have to be accelerating. You don't have to move at all to feel gravity on the surface of a planet.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 16/08/2020 06:21:35
No. It's just that you can't distinguish acceleration in an elevator from being stationary on a planet's surface. They are not literally 100% the same thing. In order to feel "gravity" in an elevator in free space, you have to be accelerating. You don't have to move at all to feel gravity on the surface of a planet.
I think you are in out of mood.  I am talking about free fall in a gravity field and the free fall in space.  But you are talking about acceleration and gravity.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 16/08/2020 06:27:12
The curvature of space is directly proportional to the mass.
Here, basic point is "what exactly this curvature is".  It is true that mass and the space fabric is different.  Mass curves or distorts the space fabric.  What this space fabric consists of.  Basic difference in between 2d space time to 3d space time.  Without this information, talking, anything about mass curving or distorting space time is immaterial.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 16/08/2020 06:40:58
I think you are in out of mood.

What does that mean?

I am talking about free fall in a gravity field and the free fall in space.  But you are talking about acceleration and gravity.

You mention acceleration and gravity right here:

Let us Imagine that you are in a closed elevator and it is accelerating downwards.
01  It is true that you are in a gravity field.
02  You are  moving along with the elevator, in other words you are in a free fall.
03  Though you are in a strong gravity field, you are escaping gravity.
04  Here, all other objects moving along with you are also in free fall.

What this space fabric consists of.

One doesn't have to consider space-time as being made of anything other than space and time in order for relativity to work.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 16/08/2020 08:43:47
What this space fabric consists of.

One doesn't have to consider space-time as being made of anything other than space and time in order for relativity to work.

When we talk of anything, it must be specific or otherwise the theory is incomplete or insufficient.

"Matter tells space time how to curve and curved space time tells how to move".   Matter tells what to curve or how this curved space time interacts with matter and tells it to move.

In general relativity,  gravity is described in terms of the curvature of space time. For example, imagine a sheet of rubber with grid lines like graph paper, suspended horizontally so that it forms a flat surface.  With no weight on it, the grid has straight lines and right angles, corresponding to the "flat space" of Euclidean geometry.
.
If you place a ball on the surface, the rubber sheet stretches around it. The curvature of the grid increases as it gets closer to the ball. This corresponds to the curvature of space-time near a massive object.

If the bowling ball is placed at the centre of the rubber sheet, it will curve or distort the sheet.  If we roll a marble piece in this curved path, it will go round the bowling ball.

This description is ok for non-Euclidean geometry.

Well, it is true that curved space time is nothing but Gravity. We know that Gravity is keeping the planets in orbit around the sun and also is keeping the moon in orbit around Earth. The gravitational pull of the moon pulls the seas towards it, causing the ocean tides.  Einstein also proposed number of effects, time dilation, light bending i.e.,

Without complete description of what is working like space fabric, being curved by mass, theory will not go further, ends at the one stage or the other.  This is what happening and we are taking Newton’s inverse square law as base.

This is the reason, still “what exactly is gravity” a mysterious one.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Alex Dullius Siqueira on 16/08/2020 18:11:05
What this space fabric consists of.

One doesn't have to consider space-time as being made of anything other than space and time in order for relativity to work.

When we talk of anything, it must be specific or otherwise the theory is incomplete or insufficient.

"Matter tells space time how to curve and curved space time tells how to move".   Matter tells what to curve or how this curved space time interacts with matter and tells it to move.

In general relativity,  gravity is described in terms of the curvature of space time. For example, imagine a sheet of rubber with grid lines like graph paper, suspended horizontally so that it forms a flat surface.  With no weight on it, the grid has straight lines and right angles, corresponding to the "flat space" of Euclidean geometry.
.
If you place a ball on the surface, the rubber sheet stretches around it. The curvature of the grid increases as it gets closer to the ball. This corresponds to the curvature of space-time near a massive object.

If the bowling ball is placed at the centre of the rubber sheet, it will curve or distort the sheet.  If we roll a marble piece in this curved path, it will go round the bowling ball.

This description is ok for non-Euclidean geometry.

Well, it is true that curved space time is nothing but Gravity. We know that Gravity is keeping the planets in orbit around the sun and also is keeping the moon in orbit around Earth. The gravitational pull of the moon pulls the seas towards it, causing the ocean tides.  Einstein also proposed number of effects, time dilation, light bending i.e.,

Without complete description of what is working like space fabric, being curved by mass, theory will not go further, ends at the one stage or the other.  This is what happening and we are taking Newton’s inverse square law as base.

This is the reason, still “what exactly is gravity” a mysterious one.

Yours
Psreddy
What this space fabric consists of.

One doesn't have to consider space-time as being made of anything other than space and time in order for relativity to work.

When we talk of anything, it must be specific or otherwise the theory is incomplete or insufficient.

"Matter tells space time how to curve and curved space time tells how to move".   Matter tells what to curve or how this curved space time interacts with matter and tells it to move.

In general relativity,  gravity is described in terms of the curvature of space time. For example, imagine a sheet of rubber with grid lines like graph paper, suspended horizontally so that it forms a flat surface.  With no weight on it, the grid has straight lines and right angles, corresponding to the "flat space" of Euclidean geometry.
.
If you place a ball on the surface, the rubber sheet stretches around it. The curvature of the grid increases as it gets closer to the ball. This corresponds to the curvature of space-time near a massive object.

If the bowling ball is placed at the centre of the rubber sheet, it will curve or distort the sheet.  If we roll a marble piece in this curved path, it will go round the bowling ball.

This description is ok for non-Euclidean geometry.

Well, it is true that curved space time is nothing but Gravity. We know that Gravity is keeping the planets in orbit around the sun and also is keeping the moon in orbit around Earth. The gravitational pull of the moon pulls the seas towards it, causing the ocean tides.  Einstein also proposed number of effects, time dilation, light bending i.e.,

Without complete description of what is working like space fabric, being curved by mass, theory will not go further, ends at the one stage or the other.  This is what happening and we are taking Newton’s inverse square law as base.

This is the reason, still “what exactly is gravity” a mysterious one.

Yours
Psreddy

Well, from a cosmetic point of view the issue seems to be right there... "oriented misconception "
We are heavily relying on a term that may be clouding overall, "curve"...
We do accept that space (or any other variable) is bending "something", simultaneously to this we do accept that everything is on a straight line.

Seems that if we take away our "know estimated reference" as a fixed point such as the sun, planets, moons, it will lead to the conclusion, that:
Gravity is but a "unavoidable mathematical mistake", not real as a force, a mysterious nothing...

Then why things fall?
It would also be answered by the same answer that explain, not what gravity is, also not what gravity isn't.
It would be answered by explanation that excludes it's very existence from the board.

Surely related, with all that was previously mentioned, corrected to shift away from the necessity that implies Gravity to be, as a feeling entity.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 22/08/2020 15:08:52
Then why things fall?
It would also be answered by the same answer that explain, not what gravity is, also not what gravity isn't.
It would be answered by explanation that excludes it's very existence from the board.
It is true that apple is falling to the ground.  Yes, without saying or knowing the force that is pulling or pushing the apple to the ground, any idea or theory on Gravity is waste or incomplete.

Well, to find out this truth Einstein carried out number of experiments and his thought experiments or beyond imagination.  However, what i am saying, i am not finding fault with his experiments, simply exploring other possibilities.

Einstein's equivalence principle is incorrect.  His ideas are great, but he has taken wrong notions, which, further diverted leading to "what exactly is gravity" incomplete and incorrect.

Space time is an important topic, which, i am sure, decides what exactly is causing apple to fall to the ground.  Here, Einstein's idea is correct, but he left it incomplete, without giving or describing all the factors of spacetime.

It is here that i am struggling hard.  As per my knowledge goes, if we place any mass, anywhere in the universe it will curve the space time around it.  As long as the mass is not placed, it is a 2d space and when the mass is placed, it is converted to 3d space.  How it is possible?.

Even on Earth, the gravity, giving you weight is also doing wonders.  It is true that it is giving weight.  We know this, since Newton told us.  When it gives you, so much of weight, how can we say that it is not influencing other masses and our daily activities..

If this myth is unleashed, i am sure, several theories are to be re-written.

To unleash this, we have to re-set our mind set.  Let us take Newton or Einstein's theories as base and explore further to achieve this farthest mission.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Alex Dullius Siqueira on 22/08/2020 16:23:40
It is here that i am struggling hard.  As per my knowledge goes, if we place any mass, anywhere in the universe it will curve the space time around it.  As long as the mass is not placed, it is a 2d space and when the mass is placed, it is converted to 3d space.  How it is possible?.

Perhaps, mass messes with a grid geometry and the so called flat 2d space time bases are multiplied and splited into all possible directions as a constant probability, but it can also never set, so it may be adopting the matter configuration for it's own as for being the only possible one...
The picture would be now, the one of a "possibility into being a force" if it was able to remain static as it was during the 2d flat space instance...  Add a close point of reference to the 2d one, it will perceive it as infinity and infinity is impossible to be reached, even so "the grid" has "reached" the end of it, only thing an endless straight line would be able to do is to cease to be, at the same time it starts to "re chase" infinity... that on the view would be an orbit...

On this view is "obvious" that the flaw is on the "it falls" approach... I'm wondering that the apple as an ordinary photon was taking a rid with space , and is "moving" towards infinity with it, taking a ride on it's geometry, math, probability for this is not so relevant, still the apple is simple there, as much as it was "before it has (fallen)", and we could restart and say that even at the ground it is still falling, tough, there is room for a change of rules here, if something needs to bypass a bulk barrier to reach infinity... If the apple is to small and the earth to big it would "seems" to be stationary at it would be read as one, also accounting for other sources... If the apple was the size of the moon, it would also try to do the same, but there is the thing, moon also as a infinity of it's own... so should be the apple.

Just speculating, that mass is a "counter side" of space that only take's place when something, either due geometry or perhaps bulk matter configuration, is "big" enough to mess with the grid, this view is needing a "breaking limit" for curvature to be so, a mathematical one...
Point of the speculation would be, gravity is an illusion born "over space" when something offers it a point to be read as infinity, take it as a local end of the universe... a flipped would be universal expansion, same rules of the inside out big bang one, tough, due local reference, also replicated outside in...

I can't see the apple falling, I cannot see a single "curve" here only different sets of scales while the straight line is "trying" to reach infinity, never achieving, and returning to try again, at each rate the line is breaking and resetting itself, that would be at C...
As if space reads the particle as a potential candidate and while trying to reach it, it misses due geometrical rules it should have derivative of it's own limitations, and as it misses, it sort of "slashes" over itself, creating a loose end(photon) that moves on, as light, if alone...
while it's being updated to "return as a commodity", better to say, it's updating the trajectory to "try again". The "loose end" adds an atemporal extraction point (that would be photon/light) where it's converted to energy, if the electron or the heavy particle in question takes/traps it for itself, so it can "leak" it's own loop, as a sink filled with liquid that would transbord, but it's on the reverse, the sink would be volume and the hole the one poring liquid in, the hole can't change, so it may redistribute it's own tunneling effect, by adding multiples of itself till it can balance and sustain it's necessity, or the reason behind it... (I'm not into particles, but can see the way their work)
Goes without saying that the electron on this view, automatically, by it's very existence, "inevitably" stimulates space to try to reach infinity and misses, the slashing effect creates a flat configuration (2d) particle while riding as a wave, and a "temporal vortex" while still on with the electron...
Feels that photons are more like "layers" around the electron, spiraling around it, each with a specific frequency
I'll try to link a picture or diagram of what I have in mind, may be subjective, for I'm still curious about golden ratio..
Not good at math or geometry, only suggesting a scenario, for it may shade some light, some falling apples...

As for the point, I do know that nothing falls, just digesting, for it's the correct way to go once one cannot explain surely why, or why not..
The apple act into falling, but an illusion, derivative from the mass effect, not really useful if for causes, but perfect to explain the final result based on the consequence, make sense, works, it simple will not answer...

Try think of this. Heavy particle, space takes it as infinity, a point of reference, a local target to it's expansive effect, a goal it, always must, fail to accomplish. It "fails", is a commodity term here, but the act was present, the probability is still there, the straight line of the filed possibility of reached infinity, and different from the linear one (2d) that rules all volume and is related with the expansion from big bang, this one is the same potential only on the outside in, the reverse scenario, the reverse math coexisting within the opposite one...
Space expands on all direction, it may be a mathematical or geometrical cause or consequence to be so, if "gravity", is but an illusion effect due the suggested above, the same rules would be reversed, forcing the reference to behave also on all directions...

Space makes the 3d configuration as a replica of ti's own expansive answer...

I mean, if not clear:
"WHAT would be the mathematical/geometrical "possibilities" if universal expansion was to reach the impossible edge of the universe, would it be forced to bend itself by splitting and multiplying volume, so to "turn around"and reach infinity again?
and, what if when doing so, it was also accounting for "multiple infinity sources", would every rule be forced to (bend) themselves to accommodate the impossibility?

If not clear, on this experiment, all indicates that (for space) each particle is the edge of the universe, infinity, so it is expanded over it, it fails, the act of trying to do so is constant, it then originates the probability wave, and the overcharged particle a lesser one so to siphon out the excessive energy/impossible amount of + energy... if it "can't' it's own configuration shifts into another particle, if it can it releases it as light/a loose end /interference point "slashed" taking a ride along the wave... Would that be possible?

The closes infinity would have preference over the far, also the biggest infinity would also be preferred over the small. Think of a "conic dance" correlation in between multiple infinities, a smaller cone would always fit inside the biggest one.
The reason may as well be all known ones, not questioning that... Only suggesting that time also may be born from the correlation in between multiple "ending of the expansion" points, each local reference as a universe of itself interacting with others(galaxies) as it's closer to the source it sort of funnels volumes compacting them at the same passe they get more dense, but only as temporal adjustment, not as a different space...
Also seems to be an illusion, as if particles do almost the same thing as BH do with space.. Consider black hole as a big example, perhaps the loss of geometry, or the fact of being so small and so dense that "space" can no longer "physically reach" the singularity... As if universe was like multiple rain drops that were standing still until Black Holes started to "fall" apart from it all, dragging everything else behind their path..
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 22/08/2020 16:47:23
I mean, if not clear:
"WHAT would be the mathematical/geometrical "possibilities" if universal expansion was to reach the impossible edge of the universe, would it be forced to bend itself by splitting and multiplying volume, rules, wherever, so to "turn around"and reach infinity again?
Einstein has taken us to a different world.  It is true, it is a big topic, expansion or contraction of universe.  In my view, first we must be in a position to say, what exactly is gravity on Earth.  Further, we must have a perfect idea on functioning of our solar system.  But, here, un-certainity prevails and for all practical purposes we are taking Newtons inverse square law, which, we know, is incorrect.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 22/08/2020 17:05:24
Well, it is true that Light is composed of electromagnetic waves, or as a collection particles, according to the wave-particle duality nature of light.  This spreading of light is known as 'divergence'.  A narrower beam of light spreads out more than a wider beam.

It is known fact that Gravity bends light and it is proved one.  When it bends light, in a strong gravity field such as Earth, if light particles start moving out,  it also aids in divergence or propagation.  We have only invented method of conversion and Gravity is aiding in propagation.

Light travels faster in vacuum than any other medium. This is because there is no obstruction in vacuum for the propagation of light and thus, the refractive index of vacuum is the lowest.  Well, it is true that gravity is matter blind.  While creating vacuum, we have removed air and in turn all particles moves out along with air.  So, without particles, gravity will not stay and moves out freely.

So, finally,  without presence of particles, spread of gravity is weak.  In turn it affects propagation of light.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 23/08/2020 16:20:12
Does equivalence principle, equated properly:

Galileo Galilei’s wrote this in 1632 even before Newton has published his famous work.

“If you are in a closed room on a ship sailing at a constant speed and the ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as they would on land. There’s no physical experiment you could conduct to tell whether you’re moving or stationary (assuming you’re not peeking out of a porthole).

This is a simple insight into what is happening in his surroundings.
01  You must be in a closed room of a ship and no porthole.
02  The ship must move at constant speed and smoothly.

Basic idea of Galileo is that, if the room is closed and if the ride of the ship is smooth, inside room, you will get the feeling as if on land.  This is an excellent idea.

Einstein’s equivalence is an extension to Galileo Galilei’s, relative motion of objects.

“Is there any physical experiment you could do within the confines of your spaceship to tell whether you really were accelerating through space (assuming there were no windows to look out from), or if, instead, you were inside a spaceship stationary on the surface of Earth? Einstein said no—just as Galileo imagined the indistinguishability between a person inside a smooth-sailing ship (confined without windows) and a person on land, Einstein realised that the effects of acceleration and gravity were indistinguishable too. This is called the equivalence principle”.

01  The cabin of the space ship must be closed and there are no windows to look or opened.
02  Spaceship must move at constant speed and smoothly.

If the cabin of the spaceship is closed and  accelerates smoothly, in such condition, you will get the feeling as if on land.

This is the equivalence principle and it tells indistinguishability between a person inside the room of a  smooth sailing ship and  to a person in the cabin of the ship accelerating smoothly.  Further, in both the cases,  the person must be in a closed room and the sailing or acceleration must be smooth, in such condition, the person inside the ship or space ship gets the feeling as if on land.  This is equivalence principle.

But, here, Einstein simply added effects of acceleration to Gravity.  This is separate one, and how it tells indistinguishability.  For this, there is no equivalence at all.  Einstein’s idea is that, the space ship is far away from all huge masses, in deep space, still there is gravity inside the cabin of the space ship, why?.  It is only answer to this question, there is no indistinguishability or comparison to anything.

Galileo’s idea is excellent and extraordinary.   In a closed room, if the ship is sailing smoothly, ‘I am getting the feeling as if on land’.

Earth is also moving with constant velocity, but we are not getting this feeling, since it is a closed one.   This is the core idea behind relativity, and is the same reason why we don’t feel our planet’s movement around the sun, or our solar system’s movement through the galaxy.

Einstein’s idea, effects of acceleration to Gravity is different one.  It is true that the cabin of the space ship is locked in a gravity field.  One of the crew, whose weight is 75 kgs on Earth, continues to be the same even after closing the cabin of the space ship.  As the space ship accelerates into deep space, there is no change, increase or decrease in the weight of the person inside cabin.

Experiments conducted inside the spaceship during acceleration and deceleration would show that something’s changing.  It is nothing but gravity field only.  While accelerating or decelerating the space ship, you are only moving the frame and in turn gravity field is changing its position.  While changing its position, gravity is pushing you in opposite direction.  If the space ship accelerates forward, gravity start collecting at the bottom. It shows that the “Gravity field” itself is heavier.  Its very presence i.e., density on Earth or any mass, decides gravity on that planet.

Gravity is not what we are thinking.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 30/08/2020 18:26:45
Does equivalence principle, equated properly:

Well, it is true that Galileo Galilei’s equivalence is the base for relativity.  But here we are not analyzing what galileo said and mostly concentrating on what Einstein said.

Einstein says that there is also indistinguishability, as assumed by Galileo in the case of smooth sailing ship, in a closed cabin of space ship.  That is right.

But, what Galileo said, in a closed room, if the sailing is smooth, things are behaving as if on land.  This is the core idea.

Here basically indistinguishability is in between:

Closed room of smooth sailing ship  =  Earth.

But, Einstein left this indistinguishability.  His idea is that, there is also indistinguishability in closed room of a space ship to Earth.  Things in the closed room of a space ship, if the acceleration is smooth, behaves as if on land.

There is no doubt about, what Einstein said.

Basically, Galileo’s indistinguishability is different one.   Things in a closed room of a ship, if the sailing is smooth, behaves as if on land.  If there is a porthole, matter is different.

What Galileo’s idea tells us, Similar to that of smooth sailing ship, Earth is also rotating with lot of velocity.  Like a closed room of a ship, Earth is also closed one.  That is why, there is indistinguishability.

This is the reason why we don’t feel our planet’s rotation and also revolution around the sun, or our solar system’s movement through the galaxy.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 20/09/2020 17:51:12
Well, even today, gravity is mysterious one and we are not in a position to say this is “what exactly is gravity”.

Ok, suppose if you pick up an object and throw it with little momentum it will come down to Earth only.  As assumed by Newton if you threw it with too much momentum, it will speed away from the planet, start beginning its journey around the Earth, along with moon.  By the time of Newton science is not developed.  Newton realized that the same invisible force that gives you weight on earth is also affecting the movements of moon.  He has drawn these conclusions taking some of the facts, moon orbiting Earth.

“Albert Einstein proposed that massive objects warp and curve the universe, resulting in other objects moving on or orbiting along those curves—and that this is what we experience as gravity.

In Einstein’s view, gravity is far from a static, unchanging force—it is a fundamental part of the structure of the universe, which curves and twists and ripples as objects move and rotate and jostle about”.

By the time of Einstein science developed a lot and clear picture on functioning of our solar system came out.  All the planets are moving in circular orbit, exactly in their paths around the Sun.

So, Einstein predicted that Sun curved or distorted or created paths around it and in this paths all other planets are moving.

Further,  Einstein knew that there are sub-paths created by masses in a curved path, they are just moving.  For example, Earth is a huge mass and it distorted or curved space time around it and moon is just making its journey in this curved path.

It is true that Sun distorted or curved the space time around it.  We knew this, since planets are moving in this paths.

However, as per my knowledge goes, Einstein tensors are not clear on how mass distort or curve space time or area up to which it distort them.  It is also not clear, what is being curved.

But, Einstein’s thought experiments are wonderful and beyond imagination of an ordinary brain.

He equated “acceleration to Gravity as indistinguishable”.  Well, space cabin is locked here on the surface of the Earth where there is strong gravity field.  As the space ship accelerates, there is no sign of  increase or decrease of gravity. Only difference is, as long as the space ship accelerates, there is gravity inside the cabin of the space ship, why?,  Except this, there is no valid question or solution to this by Einstein.

But, by this, we can draw number of wonderful conclusions.  It is true that there is strong gravity on this Earth.  Cabin of the space ship is blocked here in this gravity field only.  So, it tells us:
01  A part of the gravity can be packed in a small area such as cabin.
02  Even if we take this as medium, quantity packed in a small area such as cabin is very small.
03  In spite of quantity being small, it gives same weight.
04  This is in distinguishability.
05  As the space ship accelerates and moves into deep space,  small quantity of medium or gravity, packed in a small area such as cabin, remains intact.

Further it is also proved that:
If the space ship accelerates or decelerates, something is moving or changing in the space cabin, pushing the objects in the opposite side.

Here also, it is the space ship that is accelerating forward and in turn, it lifts the cabin and in turn cabin lifts the contents therein.  It is interlinked to each other.

As the cabin moves forward, gravity which is at rest, remains then and there, but the medium density at the bottom increases, resulting in additional gravity at the bottom.

Einstein’s equation “acceleration to gravity” clearly tells us that gravity is not attraction of masses and at the same time is not spatial flow, but is a field present on the Earth.

Only thing, we have to explore how this field came into existence and “what exactly this field is”.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 27/09/2020 15:54:52
PRIMARY EVIDENCE OF GRAVITY:

Well, it is known fact that, when Newton was sitting beneath an apple tree, an apple hit his head.  Newton started thinking, why don’t apple remain then and there in the tree, what force is pulling it.

Soon, he realized that the same force that pulled apple to ground is also keeping the planets in their position. It is said that it is the base for inverse square law.

I think it is one of the primary evidence, that one can observe or see them directly on Earth.

Another important evidence that one can see or observe is “TIDES”.  Tides are naturally occurring rise and fall in the level of water in oceans, bays, gulfs and inlets. They are the direct result of the moon's gravitational pull on earth. The moon's gravity creates two bulges in earth's oceans.

It is true, tides are due to gravitational pull of Moon on Earth.  If we take Newton’s inverse square law, it is due to attraction of masses.  Here, there is no scope in change of mass, Earth and Moon and it is the distance that plays key role.  When they are nearest to each other, the moon is in the point of its orbit called the perigee, and its pull on Earth is the strongest.

The moon's gravity reaches all parts of Earth, but its pull only noticeably affects large bodies of water, resulting in tides.

When the moon is at its full or new moon phase, high tides are at their highest, while low tides are lower than usual. Called spring tides, these tides occur when the sun, moon and the Earth all line up.

Einstein’s Gravity:
“Matter tells space how to curve, and curved space tells matter how to move. That's the basic principle behind Einstein's General Relativity, which linked, for the first time, the phenomenon of gravity with that of spacetime and relativity”.

Ok, Earth is a huge mass, it curved or distorted space time.  Similarly Moon also curved or distorted space time.  Moon is only moving inertially in the curved space time distorted by Earth.

Einstein’s general relativity, never gives us an idea or tells us how mass curves the space time and what exactly is being curved.  So, Einstein’s theory is incomplete and he left gravity an unfinished agenda.

Well, it is known fact that Newton’s inverse square law is incorrect.  Yet we are following it because General relativity is incomplete.

In the words of Newton:
“Gravity must be caused by an agent acting constantly according to certain laws; but whether this agent be material or immaterial, I have left to the consideration of my readers”.

Yes, whatever Newton’s assumption is 100% correct.  Tides are being caused by an agent or medium, which is influencing curved space time.  Ok, let us analyse it in detail.

Leaving other things, let us take it as New moon or full moon day:

Event 1:

Let us imagine that  three planets, Sun, Earth and Moon  are at rest or stationary.  These planets are not rotating or going round the Sun.  Since these planets are in straight line energy moves straightly.  Energy from the Sun hits gravity of Moon and charges it.  Once again moon reflects it towards the Earth.  It is a continuous process.  In turn this energy, once again charges gravity of Earth.

Here it all depends on mass size, if the size is big enough, more energy is reflected back into space. Here, as assumed by us all the three planets are at rest or stationary.

As assumed by Einstein, for an observer it is an event 1.

At this event,  energy from Sun moves straight, in turn moon reflects it directly and it only charges gravity field of Earth and there is no scope for tides.

Let us move to event 2:

Now Sun started rotating against its axis and in turn it dragged the gravity field surrounding it.  If Sun started rotating means, it is not mass alone but also strong gravity field adjacent to its space time.   Particles start coming out with certain amount of force or pressure.  Electromagnetic waves start moving in 180 degree angle.  Energy start flowing in the space time.  They hit the curved space time of the planets in an angular manner and the curved space time gains momentum and in turn it drags the planet.

I think, this is what Einstein said, mass tells space time how to curves the curved  space time tells mass how to move.  This is wonderful quotation, indeed, but lack of explanation.

Galileo’s indistinguishability, clearly tells us that all the planets are not open but closed.  So they absorb most of these effects.

TIDAL WAVES:
In normal course there is no scope for any tidal waves.  Since our planet is a closed one, it neutralizes all the solar impacts.

However,  moon is rotating near to the Earth, it reflects back electromagnetic waves with certain amount of extra or additional force or pressure.   As Earth is closed one, most of the effect is absorbed and small effect is passed on to the space time of the Earth.  Naturally it creates pressure on the nature.

During New or full moon day, most of the energy is passed on to the Earth.  It will be having its impact on the gravity of the Earth and in turn on the nature.  Water at the centre absorbs the effect, however at the edges, density of the water is weak and it raises.

As assumed or thought by Newton, there is an agent working constantly and creating pressure or force on water and it is the “energy”.

Tidal waves are another evidence that one can observe or notice directly.

It is also proved that if the space ship accelerates or decelerates, something is changing.  This is nothing but gravity field only.

As the space ship accelerates, it lifts the cabin, and in turn cabin lifts the things there in.  The gravity field, at rest or stationary start concentrating at the bottom, resulting in additional potential energy or gravity, which gives additional weight to things at the bottom.

As thought or assumed by Newton, gravity is caused by an agent, energy, which is acting continuously on all the planets.

Tidal waves proves this, what else proof is need.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 02/10/2020 16:19:26
If we place any mass, anywhere in the universe, in response it will distort or curve the space time.  As per special relativity, space time is empty.  But, as per general relativity, if we place any mass, anywhere in the universe, in turn it will distort or curve the space time around it, which is known as Gravity.

That is right and proved.  For example, all the planets have curved the space time around them.  But, basic question is, how mass curves the empty space around it.  Well, it is known fact that, space is nothing but empty only.

Newton has taken space as flat or empty.  As per General relativity space is not empty, mass pulls or pushes the space.   General relativity never gives or tells you how mass pulls or pushes space time.  It is also not clear what is being pulled or pushed.

Well, of course, trampoline analogy clearly gives us an idea, how mass curves the space time.  That is right.  But we cannot compare empty space to fabric.  It is true, fabric is something, but space is nothing.  It is here, total controversy, how mass converts empty space into something.  Unless, there is something, mass cannot distort or curve the space time.  “What exactly is this”, something.

Whenever we go by trampoline analogy, our solar system comes back into our mind.  It is true that Sun distorted or curved space time around it.  All other planets are only following the paths created by Sun.  So, it is clear that other planets, though they have also curved space time around them, are simply following path created by Sun.

Here, other planets also curves the space time, but it is limited.  For example, our planet, Earth distorted or curved the space time.  Moon is simply following the curved path created by Earth.  In turn both the planets are moving in the path created by Sun.

As per General relativity, Gravitation isn't determined by mass and position directly, but by the curvature of space, which itself is determined by the full suite of matter and energy throughout the Universe.

When there is matter and energy in the universe, how space time is empty.

Einstein has taken distortion or curvature by mass itself as Gravity.  It is here that Einstein kept us in a little bit confusion, in fact, chaos.

It is true and the same is appearing before us, Sun curved the space time up to the end of the solar system.  Can we call this curvature as gravity.  If that is true, General relativity will be bit different one.

At present, as per our knowledge, gravity is near to the masses only.  There is every need to study gravity as different one.  Curved space time alone is not responsible for gravity.  There is Gravity near to the masses only.  There is every need to explore, “what exactly is this gravity” and how it came into existence.

Here, whatever Newton assumed is 100% correct.  He assumed that the same medium or agent giving you weight is also keeping the planets in their position.

It is not correct to say, Einstein’s General relativity is wrong.  Here, whatever Einstein said is 100% correct and valid.  However he could not complete General relativity and left it incomplete or unfinished agenda.

Now, Science developed a lot and we are having lot of information with us and there is every need to explore other possibilities.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 04/10/2020 18:04:33
As per Einstein’s General relativity the presence of Sun disturbs or curves the very fabric of space time.  Here, Earth merely moves inertially in this curves, and it moves in ellipse, since the curves ends as such.

01  Here, it is true that all the planets curves the space time around them.  There is no doubt about that one and whatever Einstein said is 100% correct.
02  In normal course Sun also curves the space time around it.
03  This is proved through gravitational lensing or bending of light by Gravity.
04  If the Sun curves or distort up to the end of our solar system, solar light while entering our solar system itself must be bend.
05  Ok, Sun curved or distorted space time up to the end of our solar system
06  Here, exact shape or type of these paths are not clear.
07  If solar light enters our solar system, it has to follow curved paths, while crossing each planet trajectory.
08  It is untrue, saying that curved space time of the planet, tells planet how to move.  No planet is having such capacity and is not independent.
09  It is true that Earth is moving inertially in the curved path created by Sun.
10  So, mass curving the space time is different to creating path.
11  Even Earth also distorted space time around it and created a curved path to Moon.  But it is limited.

I think, there is no explanation or discussion about these curved paths, how they came into existence or created.  We are simply combining these two things and studying them.

But they are not one and the same.  It is proved through light bending.  Star light while moving near to the Sun was only bent.

Once again, I would like to reiterate that space time curved by planets is different from creating paths.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 11/10/2020 18:00:50
The key idea of Einstein's theory of general relativity is that gravity is not an ordinary force, but rather a property of spacetime geometry.  Massive bodies such as Earth distort or curves the space time around them.

Inertial mass is a mass parameter giving the inertial resistance to acceleration of the body when responding to all types of force.

Gravitational mass is determined by the strength of the gravitational force experienced by the body when in the gravitational field g.  It helps us to have an idea on the strength of the curved space of the planet.

Well, Earth is a huge mass, naturally it also gives inertial resistance to acceleration.  But what makes or causes it to be in inertia.

Ok, as per Einstein, gravity is nothing but distortion or curvature of space time by the huge masses.  So, Earth also curved or distorted space time around it.  In other words, there is strong gravity around Earth.

So, Curved space time or Gravity is giving equal or opposite resistance to Earth’s acceleration.

In this way gravitational and inertial masses are equated.

Suppose if the curved space time or gravity weakens, for any reasons, Earth’s inertial resistance increases.  In case, if the curvature is strong, inertial resistance decreases or weakens further.

Ok, if the curvature or gravity continues to be weaken, further and further, inertial resistance strengthens and planet start moving out.

But Earth is in inertia or uniform motion.  The reason is that:
01  Earth’s gravity or curved space time only causes it to be at rest or stationary.  In other words, it takes away inertial resistance exerted by Earth.
02  It is true that Sun is also rotating with lot of speed.
03  Energy released by Sun is also moving with certain amount of pressure or force.
04  Naturally, it is causing movement of energy in the lanes.
05  Energy moving in the lanes is dragging against curved space time of the planet.

In other words, Newton s Second Law of Motion, also known as the Law of Force and Acceleration, a force upon an object causes it to accelerate according to the formula net force = mass x acceleration. So the acceleration of the object is directly proportional to the force and inversely proportional to the mass.

So, naturally, no force, no acceleration.  But this acceleration again depends on the strength of the curved spacetime and the inertial resistance of the mass.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 18/10/2020 15:06:18
“In Einstein's theory, the presence of the sun disturbs--that is, curves--the very fabric of space and time. The earth then merely moves inertially in this new disturbed spacetime. It follows an inertial trajectory, but that trajectory has been distorted so that it ends up as an ellipse in the space around the sun; or, more precisely, a helical trajectory winding around the sun's worldline in spacetime”.

Einstein has taken us from mass to curved space time. That is right.

It is true that telescope revolutionized the thinking of scientists.  Sun is at the centre, other planets, including Earth are going round the Sun.  No planet is independent.  It clearly tells us that all the planets are moving in specific line, inertially under the control of Sun.  This can be visualized very easily.

Einstein’s metric tensor, never tells us how the curved space time came into existence and what exactly this curvature is.  It is only a mathematical model.  As per Einstein Space time is not flat, it can be pulled, pushed.  What this fabric consists.  If it is nothing, how it can be pulled or pushed.  Suppose, in case it is a fabric, each planet will be having its own space time curved and hence it need not go round the Sun.

If Sun curved or distorted space time, it must be limited up to the end of our solar system.  So, naturally space fabric must also end up to that place.  If it is different, how?.

For that GR takes space time as empty or nothing.  If that is true, what is there improvement to Newton’s  Gravity.

Suppose, you sat in a chair, ten feet away from TV and when you pressed the switch of remote, TV is switched on.  These things, TV and remote are developed by us and hence we knew that light is carrying signals from the remote to the devise.  Here if we argue that signals are not appearing and hence no force is working, it is simply immaterial.

Einstein’s theory is in complete or un-finished agenda. There is every need to take it forward.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 26/10/2020 15:48:05
Well, time is:
“Time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in an apparently irreversible succession from the past, through the present, into the future”

Time in physics is operationally defined as "what a clock reads".

That is true, and it is highly useful for our day to day transactions and calculations.

Well, it is surprise to see how Einstein linked Space to time, as a fourth dimension:

01 Isaac Newton saw time as passing at the same rate for all observers.
02  As per Einstein, mass curves the space around them, which is also known as Gravity.  In other words, Gravity is nothing but curved space.
03  As per General relativity, strong gravity or curvature dilates time.
04  It also says that velocity causes time to dilate.
05  Well, of course that is true and both are acceptable and there is no doubt.
06  We have to note an important point that it is gravity or velocity that causes your wrist watch to slow down.
07  But your wrist watch has nothing to do on gravity or curved space time.  It is just an instrument developed by you to count day or night.
08  Time dilation in gravity field is simply an effect of gravity but not a part of space.

Your time, day or night starts with the rotation of the planet.  This rotation again depends on the curved space or gravity.

If you are on Venus, you have set your clock as such.  It doesn’t mean it is dilated.  If your wrist watch dilates due to velocity, it has no capacity to dilate curved space or gravity.  Gravity or curved space on Earth is almost standard at 9.80 m/s.  If your watch at a particular place, where gravity is strong, dilates, doesn't mean that space time is dilated, it is your watch only.  They are simply effects of gravity.

As of now, we have no exact idea, how our solar system came into existence.  We have no perfect idea about this curvature or gravity.  We have no such capacity to record these events or say.  Our scientific knowledge is insufficient to do that.

Minkowski space is a combination of three dimensional Euclidean space and time into a four-dimensional manifold where the space time interval between any two events is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded.

At times Minkowski space, reads as history lesson not a physics.  Einstein, taking time dilation and speed of light as base simply joined time as a fourth dimension to space.

What Newton thought, time passes at the same rate for all observers is 100% correct and valid.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 26/10/2020 23:12:48
What Newton thought, time passes at the same rate for all observers is 100% correct and valid.

That's not what the experimental results say.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 29/10/2020 12:54:10
What Newton thought, time passes at the same rate for all observers is 100% correct and valid.

That's not what the experimental results say.
Ok, Kryptid,
I think experimental results mean ...
01  Gravity dilates time
02  Velocity dilate time

Here, for our practical purpose, it is gravity which dilates time.  In a strong gravity field time dilates.  In other words gravity influences time.  Strong gravity causes your wrist watch to dilate.

I would like to put a straight question, can your wrist watch causes gravity to dilate.

Time is not what your wrist watch shows, it is day and nights due to the rotation of the Earth.  You have to simply adjust your watch accordingly.  This rotation and revolution again depends on curvature of space time.

In case, if not, please tell.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 29/10/2020 16:07:09
can your wrist watch causes gravity to dilate.

I can't make sense of this. What does it even mean for gravity to "dilate"?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 29/10/2020 16:19:24
can your wrist watch causes gravity to dilate.

I can't make sense of this. What does it even mean for gravity to "dilate"?
Effect on gravity
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 29/10/2020 16:20:54
A watch has a very small mass, so technically it does have an effect on gravity. It's just extremely small.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 29/10/2020 17:17:15
A watch has a very small mass, so technically it does have an effect on gravity. It's just extremely small.
Oh! Kryptid
It is not mass of the watch that matters.  You are getting back to Newton's.  It is true that strong gravity dilates time.  So it is a lab instrument to test gravity at a particular place.

Curved space time or gravity is responsible for basic time i.e., day and night.  Our focus must be on how this curved space time or gravity came into existence.

But Einstein, taking this feature, time dilation, added it as fourth dimension.

It is true, Curved space time or gravity is responsible for day and night.  Any change in your watch is only mechanical, and you have to set time according to day and night.

Minkowski space time is different one.  It is only simple idea to record events in space he added time as a fourth dimension. For an observer what events he can count or say.

Einstein, simply added this feature, taking time dilation as an example.  For an observer, i could not understand what events he can count on.  For us, right from the date of knowing gravity, there is no change in it.

When we have no such capacity to record events,  how far it is correct to include this as a fourth dimension.  Time dilation is only mechanical change not a gravitational change.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 29/10/2020 22:07:36
What Newton thought, time passes at the same rate for all observers is 100% correct and valid.
It is true that strong gravity dilates time.

The two above statements contradict each other.

Time dilation is only mechanical change not a gravitational change.

No one ever claimed that it was a gravitational change.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 30/10/2020 14:58:36
What Newton thought, time passes at the same rate for all observers is 100% correct and valid.
It is true that strong gravity dilates time.

The two above statements contradict each other.

Time dilation is only mechanical change not a gravitational change.

No one ever claimed that it was a gravitational change.
Mr Kryptid

For Newton, day begins with sunrise.  But for Einstein day begins with ticking of clock.

It is the rotation and revolution of the planet that decides time, but not your mechanical clocks which have to be set as such.
If your watch dilates due to gravity or velocity it is your watch problem.  We have to work on how to correct or overcome this problem.

If your watch dilates in strong gravity field what events you can count.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 30/10/2020 16:33:42
It is the rotation and revolution of the planet that decides time

I'm pretty sure that time would still pass just fine if Earth did not exist.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 31/10/2020 14:52:01
For Newton, day begins with sunrise.  But for Einstein day begins with ticking of clock.
For both Newton and Einstein the day begins with sunrise. They will both agree with the time of that sunrise as shown by a clock at a particular location. Newton understood clocks, Einstein understood clocks, they would not disagree on any local measurements of time.

It is the rotation and revolution of the planet that decides time, but not your mechanical clocks which have to be set as such.
It is easy to confuse time with the means we use to measure its passing. The rotation of the planet is one way to measure the passage of time, clocks are another, oscillations of an atom another. None of these are time itself, just a way of measuring it.

If your watch dilates due to gravity or velocity it is your watch problem.  We have to work on how to correct or overcome this problem.
Not so.
It isn’t just the watch, it is the intrinsic passage of time as measured from another location. This affects all ways of measuring time passing, including biological and chemical processes, atomic decay, etc.

If your watch dilates in strong gravity field what events you can count.
You can count any events you want, but if 2 people are in different gravitational potential they will disagree on the time between those events as measured on their own local clocks.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 01/11/2020 11:15:11
It is the rotation and revolution of the planet that decides time

I'm pretty sure that time would still pass just fine if Earth did not exist.
Kryptid, who can say or view it.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 01/11/2020 14:31:26
Mr colin2b
"Minkowski space is a combination of three dimensional Euclidean space and time into a four-dimensional manifold where the space time interval between any two events is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded"

It is of course different theory, past, present and future and i don't want to go much deep into that one.

As per General relativity, strong gravity dilates time.  It is an indication that there is strong gravity.  In other words watch is an instrument to check gravity at a place.

Curved space time or gravity is permanent, as per our knowledge.  For an observer, i could not understand what event he can count.  We are taking snapshots to build a beautiful 4d space time.  We take space as nothing.  From nothing we are building curved space or gravity.

When we talk about space time, it must tell what exactly is space and how it changes over period of time.  I don't think there is any such thing.

In fact as per General relativity, all masses curves the space time around them.  But, there is no exact definition or say about this curvature.

To be frank, space time is simply an extension to Minkowski theory.

We knew that in our solar system, Sun is at the centre and all other planets are rotating and also going round the Sun.  As assumed by Newton, there is a force keeping, giving you gravity or weight on Earth is also keeping the planets in their orbit.  Curved space time is not giving any independence to planet.  The same medium spread in the space is controlling the curved space of the planet and in turn planet.

As assumed by Newton there is a medium spread within this space and controlling the planet.  Same medium is also within curved space giving you weight.

There is every need to explore, what exactly is this medium and where from it is coming.

Space is not empty.  Light is not travelling through empty space.  The medium is being curved by planets.  There fore light is moving through curved space.

Basically, it is surprise to see, Einstein taking time dilation, added additional dimension to space.

It is your mechanical clocks, invented by you dilates.  If your clock is not working at certain places properly, go for correction or develop new one.

Einstein theories are incomplete and there is every need to improve them.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 01/11/2020 15:14:38
It is your mechanical clocks, invented by you dilates.  If your clock is not working at certain places properly, go for correction or develop new one.

It's not a mechanical problem.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 01/11/2020 15:42:22
It is your mechanical clocks, invented by you dilates.  If your clock is not working at certain places properly, go for correction or develop new one.

It's not a mechanical problem.
Then, please expedite or give reasons there of.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 01/11/2020 17:48:22
Then, please expedite or give reasons there of.

Time itself flows more slowly for objects in strong gravitational fields and for objects travelling quickly (relative to another object, of course). Relativity predicts that all processes slow down, not just clocks.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: evan_au on 01/11/2020 19:04:37
Quote from: pasala
In fact as per General relativity, all masses curves the space time around them.  But, there is no exact definition or say about this curvature.
Einstein gave a very precise definition of this curvature in General Relativity.
Over the past century, General Relativity has been subjected to a battery of tests of increasing sensitivity and precision. And it it has come through all these tests with full marks. So, as far as we can measure today, Einstein's General Relativity is a very exact definition of the curvature of spacetime.

Quote
We knew that in our solar system, Sun is at the centre and all other planets are rotating and also going round the Sun.  As assumed by Newton, there is a force keeping, giving you gravity or weight on Earth is also keeping the planets in their orbit.  Curved space time is not giving any independence to planet.
Curved space means that a planet takes a geodesic through spacetime, which shows itself as an elliptical path in 3-Dimensional space, as predicted by Newton. Each planet takes an independent elliptical path through space, and any inhabitants on those planets feel the gravitational pull of the planet.
- Einstein's General Relativity works exceptionally well in our Solar System.
- In fact, Einstein's Relativity explains one factor that Newton's gravity can not: Over several centuries, the orbital orientation of the planet Mercury changes by a tiny amount. Einstein explained this as time dilation of the planet Mercury when it is closest to the Sun. The same effect has been seen in the much stronger gravitational field of the Taylor-Hulse Pulsar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Perihelion_precession_of_Mercury

Quote
Einstein theories are incomplete and there is every need to improve them.
Einstein was well aware that his theory was incomplete - it breaks down near black holes. He spent may years trying to resolve this problem, without success.
- Later, Steven Hawking made some progress towards resolving this conflict Relativity and Quantum theory, but it still breaks down near black holes.
- Other Quantum Gravity theorists are continuing this work...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/11/2020 13:29:43
In fact as per General relativity, all masses curves the space time around them.  But, there is no exact definition or say about this curvature.

Einstein gave a very precise definition of this curvature in General Relativity.
Over the past century, General Relativity has been subjected to a battery of tests of increasing sensitivity and precision. And it it has come through all these tests with full marks. So, as far as we can measure today, Einstein's General Relativity is a very exact definition of the curvature of spacetime

Please have that definition of the curvature of spacetime.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/11/2020 13:38:09
Quote

We knew that in our solar system, Sun is at the centre and all other planets are rotating and also going round the Sun.  As assumed by Newton, there is a force keeping, giving you gravity or weight on Earth is also keeping the planets in their orbit.  Curved space time is not giving any independence to planet.

Curved space means that a planet takes a geodesic through spacetime, which shows itself as an elliptical path in 3-Dimensional space, as predicted by Newton. Each planet takes an independent elliptical path through space, and any inhabitants on those planets feel the gravitational pull of the planet.

Well, anybody with a telescope can visualise such effects.  But light coming from other solar systems is not taking several curves or moving along with these paths.  In fact we are taking space as empty or nothing.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/11/2020 14:21:41
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Einstein theories are incomplete and there is every need to improve them.

Einstein was well aware that his theory was incomplete - it breaks down near black holes. He spent may years trying to resolve this problem, without success.

Not at the black holes, but at "what exactly is curved space time" itself.

"Einstein theories are not ordinary", even i too accept the truth.

Suppose you have entered the lab for a practical test, unless things are predefined what test you can conduct.

If you have a telescope, very easily say that, since Moon is going round the Earth, Earth curved or distorted space time around it and moon is simply following the path.

But i must say or define what exactly this curvature is and the possibility of, how it came into existence.

Suppose if each planet curves the space time around them, why don't they they act independently and move accordingly.  They are moving in curved paths, but light moving in is not taking any curves.  So there are no curved paths.

Sun at the centre and the planets are  rotating themselves and also going round the Sun.  Light is travelling or moving without bends, indicates that there are no curved paths except near the planet.

So, here it must be clear, by what force visible or invisible, Sun is controlling the planets.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/11/2020 15:21:17
"In the context of special relativity, time cannot be separated from the three dimensions of space, because the observed rate at which time passes for an object depends on the object's velocity relative to the observer. General relativity also provides an explanation of how gravitational fields can slow the passage of time for an object as seen by an observer outside the field".

Time dilates:
01  Due to gravity
02  Due to velocity

Basically time is not your watches, it is the rotation and revolution of planets and the movement of stars, at the best what we can count or say.  These mechanical watches are only an instrument, to read or count that one.  If these watches dilates, time never stops.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 08/11/2020 16:41:29
Basically time is not your watches, it is the rotation and revolution of planets and the movement of stars, at the best what we can count or say.
No, time is not the rotation and revolution of planets. It used to be how we measured time, not time itself.
Nowadays our atomic clocks are far more accurate than the planetary movements - which vary.
Please try to to understand the difference between time and the ways we measure time.
Time dilation has nothing to do with the accuracy or functioning of the clocks or watches, it is a fundamental difference in the measurement of time at 2 different locations.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/11/2020 16:57:25
Basically time is not your watches, it is the rotation and revolution of planets and the movement of stars, at the best what we can count or say.
No, time is not the rotation and revolution of planets. It used to be how we measured time, not time itself.
Nowadays our atomic clocks are far more accurate than the planetary movements - which vary.
Please try to to understand the difference between time and the ways we measure time.
Time dilation has nothing to do with the accuracy or functioning of the clocks or watches, it is a fundamental difference in the measurement of time at 2 different locations.

Ok, if it dilates, your age will dilate, isn't it?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 08/11/2020 17:00:15
No, time is not the rotation and revolution of planets. It used to be how we measured time, not time itself.
Please remember, time and tide will not wait for your ticking of clock.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 08/11/2020 17:33:43
Ok, if it dilates, your age will dilate, isn't it?

Yes. Time dilation will cause two people to age at different rates if they are at different gravitational potentials or traveling at different velocities.

Please remember, time and tide will not wait for your ticking of clock.

What is that supposed to mean? The tides would be affected by time dilation every bit as much as a clock that is at the same location.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/11/2020 04:57:50
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We knew that in our solar system, Sun is at the centre and all other planets are rotating and also going round the Sun.  As assumed by Newton, there is a force keeping, giving you gravity or weight on Earth is also keeping the planets in their orbit.  Curved space time is not giving any independence to planet.

Curved space means that a planet takes a geodesic through spacetime, which shows itself as an elliptical path in 3-Dimensional space, as predicted by Newton. Each planet takes an independent elliptical path through space, and any inhabitants on those planets feel the gravitational pull of the planet.
- Einstein's General Relativity works exceptionally well in our Solar System.
Ok, evan_au,
> If you have a telescope, you can visualize these things very easily.
> I think there are no curved paths or predefined paths exists.
> In case, if it is so, light has to follow curved path while crossing each path
> Light bending helps us to understand that space time is curved near to the planets.
> Basic question is "what exactly is this curvature" and how masses curves the space time around them.
> Another important question is why should or what makes planets to follow geodesics and how sun is keeping them in perfect line.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/11/2020 07:56:15
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Einstein theories are incomplete and there is every need to improve them.

Einstein was well aware that his theory was incomplete - it breaks down near black holes. He spent may years trying to resolve this problem, without success.
- Later, Steven Hawking made some progress towards resolving this conflict Relativity and Quantum theory, but it still breaks down near black holes.
- Other Quantum Gravity theorists are continuing this work
It is surprise to see:
> How black holes solves these problems
> I had gone by numbers of lectures, including great scholars, starts with space time, which is a mathematical model, as there are no answers or explanation of space time, moves to black holes.
> Now a days black holes are a centre of attraction.
> It is true that even today "what exactly is gravity" is a big question.
> It is true that all masses curves the space time around them, but we don't know, "what exactly this curved space time consists of".
>  It is true that we are all discussing a lot on "space fabric".  But it is not clear what this space fabric is and how it came into existence.
>  It is true that telescope revolutionised our thinking.  Sun is at the centre and other planets are going round the Sun.  It clearly tells us that Sun is controlling other planets.
> Taking mathematical model of Einstein as base, we have to explore several things.
> Einstein theories breaks not at the black holes but at the space time itself.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: evan_au on 15/11/2020 09:40:56
Quote from: pasala
light coming from other solar systems is not taking several curves or moving along with these paths.
Light coming from distant galaxies is often bent by the presence of massive galaxies (or galaxy clusters) between the distant galaxy and us. This can produce rings, arcs ar multiple images.
See examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens

This is just a larger version of the bending of light by the Sun which was measured by Eddington in 1919. This confirmed the predictions of General Relativity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Deflection_of_light_by_the_Sun

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Sun is controlling other planets.
It is true that the Sun's gravitational field affects the motion of the Earth, drawing it into an ellipse (as observed by Kepler, and explained by Newton)
- or, equivalently, distortion of spacetime by the Sun's mass draws the Earth's path into an ellipse
- only General Relativity is more accurate at describing this ellipse than Newton's version

Earth's orbital speed around the Sun is about 30 kilometers per second.
- But that is not the major influence on the Earth's path.
- The far greater mass of our galaxy produces an orbital speed of 230km/second around the center of our galaxy

The conclusion is that all mass deflects the path of any other mass (Newton & Einstein agree on this!).

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Einstein theories breaks not at the black holes but at the space time itself
The Solar system exists in spacetime.
- Einstein's theories have proven amazingly accurate within the Solar System.
- Therefore, Einstein's theories do not break down in spacetime
- But Newton's theory does break down at the level of the Solar System (because it does not take spacetime into account).
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/11/2020 12:13:44
Quote from: pasala

light coming from other solar systems is not taking several curves or moving along with these paths.

Light coming from distant galaxies is often bent by the presence of massive galaxies (or galaxy clusters) between the distant galaxy and us. This can produce rings, arcs ar multiple images
I am talking about curved paths and you are talking about light bending at galaxies.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/11/2020 12:18:18
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Einstein theories breaks not at the black holes but at the space time itself

The Solar system exists in spacetime.
- Einstein's theories have proven amazingly accurate within the Solar System.
- Therefore, Einstein's theories do not break down in spacetime
- But Newton's theory does break down at the level of the Solar System (because it does not take spacetime into account).
Ok, if it is not, tell me, what this 3 dimensional space time consists of.  For that "what exactly this space fabric is" and how masses curves the space time around them.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/11/2020 12:42:16
“Absolute, true, and mathematical time, in and of itself and of its own nature, flows uniformly,”  wrote Isaac Newton in his masterwork, the Principia. Newton was arguing that, even if our clocks might be imperfect, real time flows at a steady rate, serving as a kind of master clock for the universe. Newton’s definition meshes with our commonsense impression of time — that it passes at the same rate for everyone.

Whatever assumed by Newton is 100% correct.

As per Einstein:
“In the context of special relativity, time cannot be separated from the three dimensions of space, because the observed rate at which time passes for an object depends on the object's velocity relative to the observer. General relativity also provides an explanation of how gravitational fields can slow the passage of time for an object as seen by an observer outside the field”.

Here also, whatever assumed by Einstein is 100% correct and it is also tested and proved.
01  In a strong gravity field time dilates.
02  Time also dilates due to acceleration.
No doubt about those things and they are valid.

Ok, let us discuss this issue with simple examples:
01  Mr X and Y both are classmates and are of equal age, have joined an airlines office on the same day, Mr X as pilot and Y as supervisor.  As per company rules, on attaining the age of superannuation i.e., 60 years, both were retired on 30th October, 2020.  Both were having atomic clocks.  On the day of retirement, Mr. X argued that, I had worked as a pilot and spend half of life in moving from one place to other and my watch dilated by two days and I am younger than Y and I have to retire in the month of November, 2020.

02  In another example, same people, X and Y both are classmates and are of equal age, have joined a tourist office, Mr X was given posting to a high gravity place and Mr Y was given low gravity place.  Both were having atomic clocks.  At the time of retirement, Mr X argued that, he was in a high gravity area and thus his clock dilated by two days and he is younger to Y by two days and he has to retire in the month of November, 2020.

This is another important example:
One person,  Mr.E has announced that he had developed a spaceship, which can go, at the speed of light.  Total world looked at him with awesome wonder.  Now he planned a 10 year tour, to go outside our solar system and to visit other solar systems and to say hai to aliens.

One of his fried, Mr. james, Engineer working in design section, equal age came to wish his friend.  He provided his friend with a nuclear watch that can count time with pin point accuracy.

After 10 years, when Mr. E returned back after his tour, several things happened.  As per company rules, Mr. james retired on attaining the age of 60 years.  Board also has taken extra-ordinary decision of limiting the age of CEO to 60 years and declared E’s retirement.
Before the Board, Mr E argued:
As my spaceship attained the speed of light, the nuclear watch provided by my friend completely stopped working, in other words time dilated.  On reaching back Earth, it once again started working and hence my age is just 50 years only.

Ok, if your watch is not dilated, your age also is not dilated, isn’t it?, one of the board member told him.  What is the link between, working of clock and your age.
Ok, sure, if my clock works properly, I will be able to calculate my age properly, as per earth days, replied Mr. E.  It also helps me to calculate distance travelled within time.
Ok, you are far away from our solar system, there are no day and nights.  But you are within our universe only, another board member told him.
If your clock works or not, master clock continues to work.  Nuclear watch provided by your friend is only mechanism to calculate age and distance travelled, board member replied.
But, we are having perfect record, how many days you have spent in space, board member replied.
Mr E was shocked, he looked at other board members and told them that nuclear watches are so perfect that we can note changes in the movement of Earth.
That is right, time is only an instrument to record events and nothing else. For each planet there is a master clock and you have to adjust your clocks as such.  For these master clocks there is universal time.  If time dilates due to acceleration or gravity, they are mechanical problems to be solved as such, another board member.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/11/2020 13:58:41
Quote from: pasala

light coming from other solar systems is not taking several curves or moving along with these paths.

Light coming from distant galaxies is often bent by the presence of massive galaxies (or galaxy clusters) between the distant galaxy and us. This can produce rings, arcs ar multiple images.
Mr evan_au
At right time, you have given best clue.  A galaxy is held together by gravity, in other words, curved space time.  So, space fabric is limited up to the end of each galaxy.  Light while entering a galaxy is bent by the curved space time or gravity. So space time within a galaxy is not empty..
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/11/2020 14:55:24
Newton’s definition meshes with our commonsense impression of time — that it passes at the same rate for everyone.

Whatever assumed by Newton is 100% correct.

Here also, whatever assumed by Einstein is 100% correct and it is also tested and proved.
01  In a strong gravity field time dilates.
02  Time also dilates due to acceleration.
No doubt about those things and they are valid.

You are contradicting yourself. Time can't pass at the same rate for everyone and also not pass at the same rate for everyone.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/11/2020 16:19:30
Newton’s definition meshes with our commonsense impression of time — that it passes at the same rate for everyone.

Whatever assumed by Newton is 100% correct.

Here also, whatever assumed by Einstein is 100% correct and it is also tested and proved.
01  In a strong gravity field time dilates.
02  Time also dilates due to acceleration.
No doubt about those things and they are valid.

You are contradicting yourself. Time can't pass at the same rate for everyone and also not pass at the same rate for everyone.
giving judgement without evidence, isn't it?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: alancalverd on 15/11/2020 16:39:06
Time can't pass at the same rate for everyone and also not pass at the same rate for everyone.
Isn't that the essence of relativistic time dilatation? All observers see their own clocks keeping perfect time, but each sees the moving clock or the clock in a different gravitational field as going faster or slower.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/11/2020 17:25:07
giving judgement without evidence, isn't it?

No. A thing cannot be true and false at the same time. That is basic logic.

Isn't that the essence of relativistic time dilatation?

Time passes differently for different observers in relativity. It passes exactly the same for different observers in the Newtonian view. In one view, time is relative. In the other, time is absolute. They both cannot be true simultaneously.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: evan_au on 15/11/2020 21:24:07
Quote from: Pasala
Newton’s definition meshes with our commonsense impression of time — that it passes at the same rate for everyone.
To date, pretty much all humans have lived:
- In the same gravitational field, on the surface of the Earth (from deep gold mines to the top of Everest)
- Travelling at the same velocity (30km/sec around the Sun, and 230 km/sec around the galaxy)
- With an innate sense of time that often seems to vary by +/-10% or more (from excitement to boredom) and sometimes stops altogether (asleep)
- So any differences in the rate of time will be totally imperceptible to human senses
- Einstein agrees with Newton in this

However, if you get some very accurate atomic clocks, and put them 20,000km above the Earth's surface, in an orbit which moves much faster than the surface of the earth, then the effects of time dilation become noticeable.
- Atomic clocks in the GPS satellites are intentionally calibrated to be "wrong" by 38 microseconds per day (on the surface of the Earth) so they will be "right" when they are in their intended orbit. If this correction were not done, your GPS receiver would be off by about 10km/day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#History

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I am talking about curved paths and you are talking about light bending at galaxies.
When light is bent around galaxies, it follows a curved path.

Same, same...

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tell me... how masses curves the space time around them.
I don't have to - because Einstein already did it.

Unfortunately, he had to use tensors, and I didn't study tensors at university, so I can't explain it to you.

But I can see its effects in things like Eddington's experiment and Einstein rings,
- and in the science fiction movie Interstellar , where physicist Kip Thorne had the computer graphics animators feed Einstein's equations into the computer graphics system to show how a background of stars would be distorted by the presence of a black hole.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Xeon on 15/11/2020 23:07:56
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Einstein theories breaks not at the black holes but at the space time itself

The Solar system exists in spacetime.
- Einstein's theories have proven amazingly accurate within the Solar System.
- Therefore, Einstein's theories do not break down in spacetime
- But Newton's theory does break down at the level of the Solar System (because it does not take spacetime into account).
Ok, if it is not, tell me, what this 3 dimensional space time consists of.  For that "what exactly this space fabric is" and how masses curves the space time around them.
Any thing everywhere
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Xeon on 15/11/2020 23:11:38
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Einstein theories breaks not at the black holes but at the space time itself

The Solar system exists in spacetime.
- Einstein's theories have proven amazingly accurate within the Solar System.
- Therefore, Einstein's theories do not break down in spacetime
- But Newton's theory does break down at the level of the Solar System (because it does not take spacetime into account).
Ok, if it is not, tell me, what this 3 dimensional space time

A measurement
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 22/11/2020 17:45:27

Well, it is surprise to see how objects gets inertia:

"Inertia is an inherent property of an object to resist any change in its state of rest or of uniform motion. All objects continue its state of rest or of uniform motion along a straight line unless it is acted upon by an external force. This tendency of objects to continue its state of rest or to keep moving with the same velocity is called inertia".

Well, it is surprise to see, what is this "inertia" i.e., continue to moving with the same velocity.  Einstein taking this feature, simply added to gravity.

All objects continue to be at rest or stationary only.  No object, by nature  gets the quality of 'inertia'.

It is true that Sun is not at rest or stationary, it is rotating against its axis.

It is not the mass of the Sun but something i.e., medium through which Sun is controlling all other planets.  It is commanding other planets, "I move, you move".

Suppose if Sun stops rotating what happens to other planets.  As assumed by Einstein probably it takes 8 minutes for the light to stop influencing curved space time of the Earth.  But, even if, pressure/force stops, Earth continue to move some more time before coming to at rest or stationary.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 22/11/2020 22:49:36
Suppose if Sun stops rotating what happens to other planets.

There would be practically no effect. The planets would keep right on orbiting like usual.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/11/2020 13:13:02
Suppose if Sun stops rotating what happens to other planets.

There would be practically no effect. The planets would keep right on orbiting like usual.

That is right, when i talk about inertia of other planets, what about Sun.  Sun also is not at rest or stationary, it is moving against its axis.  What makes Sun to rotate against its axis.  Here, Einstein's General relativity comes back into my mind.
"Mass tells space time how to curve and curved space time tells mass how to move".

That is right.  It is true that there is curved space time.  But basic thing is how this curved space time or gravity tells or influences or drags mass.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 29/11/2020 14:46:26
Well, there are wonderful and unbelievable things in this universe.  There is no answer, as of now, from science.  It is known fact that, Earth is spinning with almost exact speed and rotating against Sun at exact line and length.  As there is no answer, we have simply named it as “inertia”.

It is a big question, why don’t planets remain at rest or stationary.  When we talk about planets, it includes Sun also.  We are taking space as empty or devoid and nothing can cause or affect the rotation of Earth.  We are thinking from the other side of the coin.

As there is no obstruction, since space is empty, Earth is rotating and also going round the Sun. Earth orbits the Sun in a slightly flattened circle called an "ellipse."  In geometry, the ellipse is a curve that loops around two points called "foci."

Ok, suppose let us take space as empty or devoid, what makes earth to follow a elliptical trajectory.  This trajectory is also pre-defined.  In an empty space there are no trajectories.  If Earth is capable of taking its own decision, it need not go in a fixed line and length around the Sun.  Since total space is empty, at times it can go up to the end of solar system, perigee and apogee differently.

Well, if we observe, how our solar system is working, it clearly tells us that all paths are pre-defined and planets have to follow it.    For this, we are taking this space time as curved or distorted by Sun.  Isn’t it something in-different.

Ok, here, there are several things, I don’t want to go deep.

Now we are discussing about “inertia” of objects:
Motion is when an object moves from one place to another, while force is what causes an object to move or to stop moving. Examples of force include the kick that causes a ball to move across the field and the gravity that slows and eventually stops that ball from moving.

Types of Inertia
•   Inertia of rest - An object stays where it is placed, and it will stay there until you or something else moves it.
•   Inertia of motion - An object will continue at the same speed until a force acts on it.
•   Inertia of direction - An object will stay moving in the same direction unless a force acts on it.

Well, as per our scientific knowledge, we knew that Sun is rotating against its axis.  Why don’t the Sun be at “inertia of rest”.  It is in the second law of inertia, i.e., “inertia of motion”.  Basic question is what makes it to continue to rotate at the same speed.

For all this, there is answer from black holes:
Black holes are not near to us, but it is a strangest and fascinating object to be studied.  It is true that we are in a strong gravity field, but we are not aware of “what exactly is this gravity”.  Actually I had treated study of black holes as a waste of time and i could not understand why Einstein had touched this black holes.  But, it appears there is a reason.

Black holes formed by the collapse of individual stars are relatively small, but incredibly dense. One of these objects packs more than three times the mass of the sun into the diameter of a city. This leads to a crazy amount of gravitational force pulling on objects around the object. Stellar black holes then consume the dust and gas from their surrounding galaxies, which keeps them growing in size

Black hole is developed after collapse of massive star, in other words it is the final stages of a star.  We are all studying about event horizon, gravity, time dilation, light escaping, since these are all strangest things, we study them with lot of interest and curiosity.

These things are one side of the coin only.

Stars are born when large gas clouds collapse under gravity. They form hot cores that gather more and more gas and dust until a protostar is formed. If only a small amount of gas is around, then only a small star will form; if a large amount of gas is present, then a massive star will form.

Suppose, let us assume that, similar to that of human life, a star has 100 years or 100 events in fourth dimension:
01  When a large gas clouds collapses under gravity,  paves the way for formation of star.  It is the first stage or year or event.
02  It start gathering more gas clouds and dust particles from surrounding and start growing and paves the way for second event.
03  At the second stage or 50 years  the star  is at the massive stage and there is no scope for further expansion.
04  After the second stage, there is no scope for expansion and the atoms of light elements are squeezed under enough pressure for their nuclei to undergo fusion decreases.
05  As the hydrogen fuel start exhausting at a particular place, it appears as dark area or sun spots.
06  Upto 1% to 5%  of the mass of the star, dark area or sun spots are bearable.
07  As the size increases up to 10%, gravity tries to occupy this place.  Gravity tries to move according to the decrease of hydrogen fuel, it may be either clockwise or anti clockwise.
08  However up to 10% it is bearable and there is no any scope for any unexpected changes.
09  If the dark area increases more than 10%, gravity moves to that area and drags mass of the star and it start rotating slowly.
10  If the dark area increase more than 20%  rotation speed increases and start stabilizing.
11 If the dark area increases more than 40% of the area of star, gravity start moving towards the mass.
12  Here rotation will continue as long as the charge is towards the sides of the mass.
13  One’s the charge or gravity start moving towards the centre of the of the mass, “star turns out as a black hole”.

All the stars while growing, up to 50% of the age, are all will be at “inertia of rest”.  As the hydrogen plasma start exhausting, a gap is developed, dark area.  Strong gravity surrounding the star try to occupy this gap.

This, we can see in thought experiments also.  When the cabin of the space ship is blocked in a strong gravity field, there is gravity.  As long as the engine fires, there is no scope for internal space time to interact with the outside space time and there is  in-distinguishability.   One’s the space ship reaches destination, internal space time inter- acts with the outside space time and adjusts with the outside space time.

Finally the third point “inertia of direction”.  We assume that since space is empty, as there is no obstruction, all the planets moves in specific direction is incorrect.

Unless there is certain amount of force or pressure, to move in a specific line, and keeping them in a particular trajectory, all planets will go differently.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 13/12/2020 14:18:38
DO GRAVITY BENDS LIGHT?:
Well, of course it is known and proved that Gravity bends light.  But, in my view, gravity is not bending light and light only following path of Gravity.  Ok, let us discuss in detail.

In Newton's Universe, that stage was flat, empty, absolute space. Space itself was a fixed entity, sort of like a Cartesian grid: a 3D structure with an x, y and z axis.

In 1907, Einstein's former professor, Hermann Minkowski, made a brilliant breakthrough: he showed that you could conceive of space and time in a single formulation. In one fell swoop, he had developed the formalism of spacetime. This provided a stage for particles to move through the Universe (relative to one another) and interact with one another, but it didn't include gravity.

If there were no such thing as the gravitational force, Minkowski spacetime would do everything we needed. Spacetime would be simple, uncurved, and would simply provide a stage for matter to move through and interact. The only way you'd ever accelerate. Minkowski spacetime is flat and therefore light travels in a straight line.  As per Einstein, there is gravity near to all huge masses and it bends light.

How light travels:

01  If the elevator is at rest or stationary, there is gravity inside the elevator and the ‘X’s weight continues to be 75 kgs only, light moves from one hole to other.

Now, let us imagine that Sun is at rest or stationary.  There is no movement or change in gravity field.  Light entering gravity field of Sun, moves out.  Here there is no question of bending

02  We must remember that unless there is a change in the movement of elevator, up, down, there is no effect at all.  It is also proved that something is changing in the elevator. It is true that there is gravity inside the closed elevator and X’s weight is 75 kgs only.  When the elevator is lifted, we must remember that we are lifting the frame of the elevator only.  In turn elevator lifts the things therein, including gravity field.  When the elevator is lifted, gravity field moves downwards, pushing you downwards and it tells us that gravity field has got certain amount of weight and it exerts pressure/force.

It is true that there is strong gravity, surrounding space time of Sun.  It is a big question “what exactly is this curvature” and how it came into existence.  As per General relativity, “matter tells space time how to curve and curved space time tells matter how to move”.

So, unless there is a change in the gravity field of Sun, no impact can be noticed.

03  If the elevator accelerates forward:
Here though light source is relative to the elevator, the light beam bends downwards, equal to the acceleration of the elevator.  When the elevator is at rest or stationary, light beam moves out through the other end.  As the elevator accelerates forward, we are moving elevator only and in turn it lifts the gravity field and light beam travels along with the gravity field. If there is no relevance, in between light and gravity, light will move out through the other hole.
But, though the source is relative, the light particles moving through gravity remains or continues to moves according to the movement of gravity.

For so many reasons, if the Gravity surrounding the space time of the Sun start rotating, it drags the mass of the Sun.
Now, Gravity field surrounding the Sun is not at rest and it is moving. Light while entering gravity field, follows geodesics.  But, here gravity is not bending light.  Here, lensing is the difference in the movement of gravity field.
There is no bending of light, it is just due to the movement in the gravity.

04  If the elevator accelerates downwards:
Gravity field inside the elevator moves up.  The person inside the elevator is in free fall. If the light source is at the bottom, since gravity is moving up, it follows it and being bend accordingly.

Ok, Sun is rotating at anti-clockwise.  If the light enters from clockwise or in opposite direction.  In such cases also there is lensing.  Gravity field moves in opposite direction and the light particles are dragged in opposite direction and lensing is upward direction.

05  If the elevator accelerates at the speed of light.
It is very difficult to imagine. In such case there is no lensing at all, light particles and gravity got no difference at all.

Weird example for this is black holes.  Here there is no light bending at all.  Light beam entering event horizon, moves along with other particles. Now a days, it is a big topic, does light escapes, event horizon.

In my view, yes it can.  We will discuss it at a later date.

Conclusion:
Speed of light is constant.  As per Einstein, all masses curves the space time around them, in other words Gravity.  Except this curved space time, total space is treated as empty.  Tensors, defines this curved space time but there is no explanation on how this curved space time came into existence and what exactly it consists of.

It is true that space time near to the masses is curved or altered by masses.  Ok, what about space time in between two masses.  We are taking this as empty.

That the speed of light is a constant is one of the most important facts about space and time in special relativity. That fact gets expressed geometrically in space time geometry through the existence of light cones, or, as it is sometimes said, the "light cone structure" of space time. To see that structure, we imagine an event at which there is an explosion. Light will propagate out from it in an expanding spherical shell.  In a two dimensional space, it will look like an expanding circle.

So, light will propagate through explosion..  Ok, in case if the source i.e., Sun rotates, light particles are released with certain amount of force or pressure and hence moves up to the end of the solar system.

So, this is the base or foundation for formation of solar system.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: puppypower on 13/12/2020 15:40:55
Friends,

It is true that science developed a lot.  We know several things and we are able to carry out research in space and we are sending rockets to other planets.

I think there is every need to revise the present existing theories.  I don't think it is so good, going by ants perception,  trampoline  analogy.  Ok, they may be correct, let us discuss to have "What exactly is gravity".

Yours
Psreddy

If you look at gravity in action, what it does is attract and gather mass and cause the local space-time reference to move in the direction of the speed of light reference. The black hole, which is the pinnacle of gravity in action, contracts space-time to nearly the point reference, that the speed of light velocity would do in SR. Since this movement and direction of matter is spontaneous under gravity, this is the direction of lowering potential, implying the speed of light reference is the ground state that gravity seeks.

Gravity is also modeled as an acceleration, which has the units of d/t/t. Therefore, gravitational acceleration is two parts time and one part distance. It is space-time plus time. The first time vector is connected to space as space-time. While the second time vector is connected mass and matter. The gravitational force, via its induced pressure and work/heat, causes matter and energy transitions to speed up. For example, the fusion core of the sun has the fastest frequency transitions; for matter and energy, even though GR predicts that space-time slows in the center of gravity. The two time vectors go in different directions. Gravity adds time potential to space-time, that impacts matter differently from the reference affects.

What the second time vectors does, which is not addressed fully by GR, is add pressure and heat  to matter and mass, causing phase changes, and faster transitional states, that allow entropy to increase, even in confined spaces; second law.

For example, If we pressurize water vapor into liquid water the entropy lowers. As liquid water is pressurized by gravity, the entropy of the water starts to increase. This anomaly is connected to hydrogen bonding anomalies, that make water very unique in the universe. As we increase pressure and temperature even further, water continues to change phases into higher and higher entropy states. The core of the earth has conditions that may allow metallic water, which expresses entropy through its various electron and proton conductive properties.

The second law induction is also an artifact of the speed of light reference being the ground state. The speed of light reference contains implies zero free energy; ground state. This implies that the speed of light reference has infinite entropy. Gravity is moving matter to the lower free energy potential of the c-reference, as well as toward the higher entropy of the c-reference.

G=H-TS, Where G is the Gibbs free energy, H is enthalpy and T is temperature and S is entropy. The minus sign requires S to increase toward infinite to outweigh any internal energy affects H within matter. This makes G=0.

The expansion of the universe causes energy to red shift. What that does is lower the energy value of energy. Longer wavelength energy can do less work. This is also a reflection of moving photons toward the zero energy of the c-reference. Both gravity and expansion are paths toward the same place; lowest energy, highest entropy and c-reference.

Gravity is not an independent variable, but rather is an artifact of mass and matter having departed from the ground state at speed of light, during its creation. It must now return home, but it cannot do this directly, since matter cannot go the speed of light and return directly, without equal amounts of antimatter.  It cannot go backwards in time, since that ship has sailed.

The time potential : t2, is toward the future. It needs to find new ways home; new future instead of the old past. The analogy is tunneling through a mountain to the other side. Once you get there, there is an avalanche that seals the tunnel. One needs to get back to the other side, but now we need to do it another way, which is the long way, around the mountain. We lost anti-matter, so matter cannot tunnel back to c by combining with anti-matter. Gravity helps get mass and matter  around the energy barrier, back to the ground state.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/12/2020 16:00:48
The speed of light reference
You keep trying to hijack threads with this idea; but you refuse to explain what it means.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 20/12/2020 07:03:55
DO GRAVITY BENDS LIGHT:
This is in continuation to the previous one.  Really, do gravity bends light.  No, not at all.  Gravity is not bending light, it is only an indication, how or where gravity is moving.

→ Well, it is true that there is strong gravity inside the elevator.  There is no change or effect unless the elevator is moved or changes its position.  It is also proved that something is changing in the closed elevator.

→ When the elevator is accelerated, frame lifts the gravity field, resulting in additional concentration of gravity.

→ If weight, we are experiencing on Earth is due to Gravity, additional or extra weight is also due to additional gravity.

→ It all depends on the density of the field.

→ It clearly tells us that Gravity is nothing but density of this field.

BENDING OF LIGHT IS AN INDICATION:

→ When the elevator is at rest or stationary on the ground, there is gravity inside the elevator and Mr. X’s weight is 75 Kgs only.

→ Now, if you allowed a light beam from outside to enter one side of the elevator through a hole, If there were no relative motion or relative acceleration between the elevator and the light source, the light beam would travel straight and moves out through the other hole.

→ If the elevator is lifted, in turn, literally it lifts the gravity field, resulting in additional gravity at the bottom, which pushes or moves you to the sides.

→ Now light beam bends according to acceleration of the elevator.

→ If the elevator is at rest, gravity field is also at rest or stationary only.  In such case light particles moves straight.

→ If the elevator is accelerated, gravity field moves down.  However light source is relative to that of elevator.

→ Though the gravity field moves down, light source is constant.  When the elevator is at rest, light particles have moved in straight line.

→ When the source is relative to elevator, what makes the light particles to move at the old route, without deviating.

→ Though there is a chance to deviate, light particles are not leaving en-route.  It warrants lot of research in this arena.

So, gravity is not bending light.  Light beam that entered strong gravity field of Sun tries to flow straightly without deviating.  But the Gravity field is not constant, it is moving and thus it appears that it is bending light.  Light bending, net difference is change or movement of gravity field.

DO SPACE WARPS UNDER ACCELERATED MOTION:
That is another incorrect idea of Einstein.  Special effects, time dilation and length contraction are different and no relevance to this.

“Matter tells space time how to curve and curved space time tells matter how to move”.

Light bending clearly tells us that it is not matter, curved space time or gravity is also moving.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: evan_au on 20/12/2020 09:56:16
Quote from: Pasala
Suppose if Sun stops rotating what happens to other planets?
....how this curved space time or gravity tells or influences or drags mass.

It is true that there is an effect called "Frame Dragging", predicted by Einstein's relativity.
- It is an extremely subtle effect, and was only demonstrated in delicate satellite experiments in the past 10 years - and then only to a fairly rough approximation.
- If the Sun stopped spinning, the frame-dragging effect of the Sun would cease, and this would have a tiny effect on the orbit of Mercury, only observable over centuries.
- It would have almost no effect on the Earth

The Frame Dragging effect is thought to be a significant factor in the relativistic jets produced by supermassive black holes at the center of quasars.
- But the effect is negligible for an object like the Sun.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 20/12/2020 12:09:41
Quote from: Pasala

Suppose if Sun stops rotating what happens to other planets?
....how this curved space time or gravity tells or influences or drags mass.

It is true that there is an effect called "Frame Dragging", predicted by Einstein's relativity.
"Frame Dragging":
Einstein's theory of general relativity predicted that the space-time around Earth would be not only warped but also twisted by the planet's rotation.

Ok, suppose, if Earth rotates i.e., inertia, in such case there is possibility of Frame dragging.  But there is every need to decide what is this inertia and how planets have got this inertia.  When we don't know, how a planet is rotating, we simply name it as inertia.  In all, if inertia is the quality of planets, what makes them to rotate against themselves and also to go round the Sun in a perfect line.

Frame dragging is possible only when mass rotates and drags the surroundings.  But..
"matter tells space time how to curve and curved space time how to move".

In such case it is the curved space time that is dragging mass.

Light bending clearly tells this.  There is movement of curved space time or Gravity.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: talanum1 on 24/12/2020 14:12:55
Spacetime is not curved by gravitons. There is a base space that is flat and continuous and made of the interval: [0,1). Then gravitons come and make images of points that are displaced relative to these intervals. This way we can also account for Electromagnetism curving spacetime, as well as the other forces.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 25/12/2020 10:26:39
Spacetime is not curved by gravitons. There is a base space that is flat and continuous and made of the interval: [0,1). Then gravitons come and make images of points that are displaced relative to these intervals. This way we can also account for Electromagnetism curving spacetime, as well as the other forces.
Gravitons is only an imagination, that may exists or not.  It appears that you are having more computer knowledge.  When it is space or nothing what makes or how or where from gravitons  joins electromagnetism to curve space time.

It is true that base itself is wrong, we are building castle out of thin air.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: talanum1 on 26/12/2020 18:53:47
We postulate that space emerges from a semi-continuous flat base-space. This base-space is constructed from [0,1) pieces as follows:

Using the Superimpose points operator: 𝐒 and the superimpose left out points operator: 𝐓 we construct images of the base space points and postulate that it is the relevant field that produces these images. For example, the graviton field produces images (usually called spacetime). We choose our origin at a left out point then:

gravity-spacetime =
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^0_(2n),2n+β^(^0)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^1)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^1)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^2_(2n),2n+β^(^2)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^3)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^3)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^4_(2n),2n+β^(^4)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^5)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^5)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^6_(2n),2n+β^(^6)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^7)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^7)_(2n+1))

where α^(^j)_(^i) and β^(^j)_i  are elements of (-∞,∞) and n can be the Planck length. Where 𝑺(n,n) contributes a point at x=n, y=n and T(m,m) contributes a left out point at x=m, y=m.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 26/12/2020 21:31:15
We postulate that space emerges from a semi-continuous flat base-space. This base-space is constructed from [0,1) pieces as follows:

Using the Superimpose points operator: 𝐒 and the superimpose left out points operator: 𝐓 we construct images of the base space points and postulate that it is the relevant field that produces these images. For example, the graviton field produces images (usually called spacetime). We choose our origin at a left out point then:

gravity-spacetime =
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^0_(2n),2n+β^(^0)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^1)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^1)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^2_(2n),2n+β^(^2)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^3)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^3)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^4_(2n),2n+β^(^4)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^5)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^5)_(2n+1))×
T_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+α^6_(2n),2n+β^(^6)_(2n))S_(n=-∞)^(^∞)(2n+1+α^(^7)_(2n+1),2n+1+β^(^7)_(2n+1))

where α^(^j)_(^i) and β^(^j)_i  are elements of (-∞,∞) and n can be the Planck length. Where 𝑺(n,n) contributes a point at x=n, y=n and T(m,m) contributes a left out point at x=m, y=m.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/01/2021 17:26:01
SPACE TIME:
What bothers my mind is, about space time.  What exactly is this space time and how masses curves this empty space.  As per Minkowski space time is nothing or empty.  As per Einstein space time near to the masses is curved.  Gravitational lensing clearly tells us that curved space time near to the masses is not empty.

Of course it is not bending but curved space is dragging the light.  In other words curved space is not stationary, it is rotating and causing the mass to move.

We are building beautiful space taking snap shots of different events and stacking up them to give us a three dimensional space time.  Suppose if we take snap shots of Earth at the end of each quarter in a year at different places around the Earth, taking them as events and if we arrange them, we will get the feeling of three dimensional space time.

In ordinary space, a position is specified by three numbers, known as dimensions. In the Cartesian coordinate system, these are called x, y, and z. A position in spacetime is called an event, and requires four numbers to be specified: the three-dimensional location in space, plus the position in time.

Trampoline analogy:
“Consider a very large trampoline with nothing on the trampoline pad and trampoline pad remains flat and parallel to the ground. Now place a heavy bowling ball at the center of the trampoline pad. The center of the pad will sag downward. If we assume the analogy that the trampoline pad represents space-time, and the bowling ball a gravitating object, then the sagging of the trampoline represents the curvature of space time under the influence of gravity. We can now see that if we take a lighter ball, and place it at the edge of the trampoline pad, it will roll down toward the bowling ball. This attraction to the bowling ball is because the path toward the bowling ball through space is favorably curved”.

But is this picture right? Mariusz Wroblewski is skeptical, asking:
“I’d like somebody to finally acknowledge and admit that showing balls on a bed sheet doesn’t cut it as a picture of reality”.

I freely acknowledge and admit it. As ubiquitous as pictures of bent sheets or coordinate systems are, they aren’t exactly reflective of the reality we inhabit.

If you’ve ever seen a picture of a bent, two-dimensional grid with masses on it representing space, you’ll know this type of illustration is extremely common. It appears to depict the fabric of space as being curved by the presence of mass, and therefore, any other particle traveling along this fabric will have its path bent towards this gravitational source. But what would such a picture actually imply? If space is like a fabric, how does mass curve it?
Gravity simply is, and it’s merely that the equations that describe General Relativity are geometric in nature. The idea that mass-and-energy curves space can be right,.

The presence of matter and energy curved the very fabric of this spacetime, and that curved spacetime, in turn, dictated how matter moved.

Ok, let us imagine that: there are two key players, matter and energy.  If the space is empty, how mass curved, or where from the energy is coming, source.  In case if the source is mass itself, it will be different story.

The big question that bothers my mind, how a 2d space, when mass is placed converted into 3d space.  3d space implies that there is something, what is that?.

Maths is not everything, it is only an instrument or aid to help, have a better visualization of what you have said.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 21/02/2021 17:00:00
HOW GRAVITY WORKS:
Trampoline analogy:
“Consider a very large trampoline with nothing on the trampoline pad and trampoline pad remains flat and parallel to the ground. Now place a heavy bowling ball at the center of the trampoline pad. The center of the pad will sag downward. If we assume the analogy that the trampoline pad represents space-time, and the bowling ball a gravitating object, then the sagging of the trampoline represents the curvature of space time under the influence of gravity. We can now see that if we take a lighter ball, and place it at the edge of the trampoline pad, it will roll down toward the bowling ball. This attraction to the bowling ball is because the path toward the bowling ball through space is favorably curved”.

If any body asks you, how gravity works, this is the best answer one could say or tell. As per Einstein if we place any mass anywhere in the universe it will curve the space time around it.

It is true that all the masses, here on earth curves the space time around them.
There are several questions that hangs in our mind.
→ How all masses curves the space time around them
→ How or is it the internal space time of the mass that alters the space time around them.  .
→ If there is no something in the outside, empty space, how masses curves or alters the outside space time.
→ From the thought experiments, it is proved that something is moving in the closed elevator.  When the elevator moves up something is moving in opposite direction, causing or giving you additional weight.
→ So, it is clear that there is something in our space time and mass alters it.
→ Same medium that is present here on Earth, giving you weight is also present in the outside space time.
→ This medium is working as fabric.
→ If mass curves the space time, it is an indication that space time is not empty.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 27/02/2021 17:12:24
Quote from: Pasala
Suppose if Sun stops rotating what happens to other planets?
....how this curved space time or gravity tells or influences or drags mass.

It is true that there is an effect called "Frame Dragging", predicted by Einstein's relativity.
- It is an extremely subtle effect, and was only demonstrated in delicate satellite experiments in the past 10 years - and then only to a fairly rough approximation.
- If the Sun stopped spinning, the frame-dragging effect of the Sun would cease, and this would have a tiny effect on the orbit of Mercury, only observable over centuries.
- It would have almost no effect on the Earth

The Frame Dragging effect is thought to be a significant factor in the relativistic jets produced by supermassive black holes at the center of quasars.
- But the effect is negligible for an object like the Sun.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging
"In general relativity , a mass’s rotation influences the motion of objects in its neighbourhood. Put simply, the rotating mass “drags along” spacetime in the vicinity".

Ok, for an observer within gravity field feels that there is no light bending at all and light is moving in straight line.  But for an observer staying on other planets there is light bending.

Similarly, everything including planets are moving.  Suppose there is a satellite in the space, it is moving, earth is moving everything is moving.  As per our knowledge goes, every object in our solar system is moving.

Ok, there are two objects in the space, one is moving and the other is not. In such case the moving object can influence the stationary object.  If both are moving in same line and length, what influence or how it drags the others frame.

Well, surprisingly it is the Sun, which is dragging every object in our solar system.  No planet is having the quality of "inertia", it's all due to Sun.

Sun is at the centre, rotating and dragging the frame of every other object.

Suppose, if Sun stops rotating, "frame dragging" becomes zero.  All other planets stops rotating and comes to stationary position.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 27/02/2021 17:38:37
All other planets stops rotating and comes to stationary position.

No, not at all. As a matter of fact, we know of a star that has planets rotating in the opposite direction of the star's spin.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/02/2021 14:27:47
All other planets stops rotating and comes to stationary position.

No, not at all. As a matter of fact, we know of a star that has planets rotating in the opposite direction of the star's spin.
It's an exceptional one, not normal.
Basic question is:
-  If star rotates other planets also rotates,
-  Do, any example, where planets rotate when star is at rest or stationary.

Newton's gravity it basic one.  Where as, Einstein theories are complete departure from this.  His theories, GR and thought experiments are extra-ordinary.  However his theories are incomplete and unfinished agenda.  They are to be taken up further.  Black holes are not near to us and any practical experiment is almost impossible to us.  Any discussion, simply an imagination only, about formation, event horizon, light escaping, death of a black hole.

It is true that we are in a strong gravity field and it is influencing everything, our activities, nature.

It is true that:
-  As imagined by Einstein:
a)  It is proved and known fact that when the elevator is lifted or moved, something within the cabin is moving.
b)  If the elevator is lifted, additional gravity or concentration of gravity at the bottom is increasing, resulting in additional
gravity at the bottom.
c)  If weight is the criteria to measure gravity, what else is the proof.
d)  It is also true that if the elevator is lifted, something within the elevator is moving and it is bending light.  If not gravity,
what is moving or influencing light.

Ok, leaving aside other things:

a)  It is true that cabin of the space ship is packed within gravity field only.
b)  Before packing cabin, Mr. X's weight is 75 Kgs only.  Even after packing also, Mr.X weight is 75 Kgs only and there is no change in his weight.
c)  To think or to say that Engine of the space ship influences or create gravity, there is no change in the gravity or weight of Mr.X.
d)  It gives us clear idea that Gravity is a "FIELD" present on the surface of the Earth.
e)  It can be packed and moved.
f)  Further, if the engine shuts, it is not vanishing or diminishing suddenly.
g)  So, it is having another important quality of moving from high to low.

Ok,  Kryptid:
What else proof is needed to say that gravity is a field present on the surface of the Earth.  If we say that it is not appearing or could not detect it, it is our incapacity.

Minsowski space time is like running, when we are not in a position to stand or walk, how can we run.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 01/03/2021 15:24:54
Do, any example, where planets rotate when star is at rest or stationary.

You are exceedingly unlikely to find a star that doesn't rotate at least a little bit.

I don't know how the rest of your post is supposed to address what I said. The rotation of the Sun is not what causes planets to orbit it. If you could somehow stop the Sun from rotating, the planets would keep on going as usual.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 07/03/2021 16:34:15
Mr Kryptid,
Well, it is surprise to see how a mass curves the space time around them and what exactly is this curvature.

Ok, let us  presume that each mass curves the space time around them as assumed by Einstein. If a planet curves space time anywhere in the universe, why planets are existing or found in solar systems only.    In outer space they are turning out as asteroids.  These asteroids can curve the space time within solar system only.    Unless a star such as Sun curves or distorts space time no planet can curve or distort, locally.  Space, curved or distorted by a star is not empty, there is something.

Newton's inverse square law is basic, simply tells that there is gravity and it gives weight on Earth and  it is keeping planets in their position.  But there is no explanation, how or in what way.  Newton also assumed that there is  something, medium.

By the time of Einstein science developed a lot.  Beyond that he had done excellent work.  Great idea, first occurred to Einstein, when he looked out a window at the patent office and saw some construction workers on a nearby building, realizing that if one were to fall through a great distance, one would not feel the force of gravity while one was falling.

Really, amazingly, it is a great idea.  Since planets are in inertia, he linked it to everything.

"FREE FALL" idea is good, but it may not be correct everywhere.  Ok, here on Earth, gravity, as per our knowledge or present thinking, flowing towards the centre of the Earth.

First of all we have to remember that gravity itself is giving you free fall.  Gravity itself is causing you to come down to the Earth.

1)  If there is no gravity, there is no free fall at all.
2) So, gravity is causing planets to move, not that planets themselves in free fall in gravity field.
3)  If there is no stress, energy, momentum in space, there is no free fall at all.
4)  All the planets will remain then and there.
5)  Free fall is not escaping gravity but caused by gravity itself.

As per General relativity, curvature is nothing but stress, energy, momentum.  But it is not clear the source of this energy, stress, and momentum.

As per General relativity Sun curved or distorted space time up to the end of our solar system and planets fly freely in this curved or distorted space time.   It is curved space time or gravity, causing planet to move. .

Here Newton's 2nd law comes into role  "which states that the net force acting on a body is equal to that body's (inertial) mass multiplied by its acceleration".

All the stars, newly born, initially curves the space time around them.  But they don't rotate against their axis. It is, as per Newton, a medium, and it is curved space, i.e., energy, stress, momentum variations that causes the star to rotate against its axis.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 07/03/2021 17:40:20
why planets are existing or found in solar systems only.

That's part of what defines a planet. It must be orbiting a star by the current IAU definition. If it's a "rogue planet" that is travelling freely through space, then it technically isn't a planet under the current IAU definition.

Unless a star such as Sun curves or distorts space time no planet can curve or distort, locally.

No. The Earth would still have gravity even if the Sun wasn't there.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 13/03/2021 15:31:54
why planets are existing or found in solar systems only.

That's part of what defines a planet. It must be orbiting a star by the current IAU definition. If it's a "rogue planet" that is travelling freely through space, then it technically isn't a planet under the current IAU definition.

Unless a star such as Sun curves or distorts space time no planet can curve or distort, locally.

No. The Earth would still have gravity even if the Sun wasn't there.
Mr Kryptid
IAF definition is only an information and it never tells us why or how a planet is good one and how it turns out into bad one.

General relativity tells us that any mass can curve the space time anywhere in the universe.  But it did not tell us how a planet curves the space time or what exactly this curved space time consists of.

If a planet curves the space time in a solar system, there must be something, which helps or aids in conversion of 2d to 3d space time.

Another big question is, why should these planets are in horizontal way.  Why not these planets in vertical.  This is the reason, we are taking trampoline analogy as best example.

I am sure, there is every need to discuss a lot on this subject.
Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/03/2021 14:23:37
Quote from: pasala on 07/03/2021 16:34:15

Unless a star such as Sun curves or distorts space time no planet can curve or distort, locally.

No. The Earth would still have gravity even if the Sun wasn't there.

If space time is not curved or distorted by Sun, where is the shortest path or geodesics for Earth.  In the absence of curved space time by the Sun, we don't know whether Earth curves the space time or not, for that we are not aware what exactly is this curved space time, it is a million dollar question.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/03/2021 16:14:08
Ok, let us re-visit Newton’s gravity, idea:

“After dinner, the weather being warm, we went into the garden and drank thea, under the shade of some apple trees…he told me, he was just in the same situation, as when formerly, the notion of gravitation came into his mind. It was occasion’d by the fall of an apple, as he sat in contemplative mood. Why should that apple always descend perpendicularly to the ground, thought he to himself…”

Basic question is:
01  Why don’t the apple remain then and there in the tree.
02  What made the apple to come down to the Earth.

These questions paved the way for Gravity.  That is right.

“Great idea first occurred to Einstein, when he looked out a window at the patent office and saw some construction workers on a nearby building, realizing that if one were to fall through a great distance, one would not feel the force of gravity while one was falling”.

01  It is true that the worker is in strong gravity field.
02  If he start falling to the ground, he will not feel  gravity.

Both are great ideas.  But …..
01  If both apple and worker are at height, there is gravity.
02  As per Newton and Einstein, gravity is causing apple and worker to come down to the Earth.
03  What Einstein says, if the worker start coming down to the Earth, he will not feel gravity.

But it is the gravity, causing the apple to come down to the Earth.  If there is no gravity the apple will remain at the apple tree only.

So, finally ….
“if there is no gravity, there is no free fall at all”.

“Whether planets follow geodesics or not, they are at inertia, due to gravity”.

If there is no gravity, all the planets, like apple, will remain then and there.

Let us take the discussion further.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 14/03/2021 16:49:25
If there is no gravity, all the planets, like apple, will remain then and there.

Without gravity, there wouldn't be any planets.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/03/2021 17:05:06
If there is no gravity, all the planets, like apple, will remain then and there.

Without gravity, there wouldn't be any planets.
Ok, Kryptid, you are 100% correct.
But subject is about free fall.
As per Newton, it is due to gravity that apple is coming down to the Earth.  If there is no gravity, the apple will not come down to the Earth and will remain at the tree only.

But as per Einstein, apple is coming to the ground and it is at free fall.In other words, during free fall, there is no gravity at all.

Here, we have to remember one important point that "if there is no gravity, there is no free fall".

Both are interlinked to each other.

All the planets including Sun are at free fall or inertia due to gravity only.  Here, Newtons 2nd law applies.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 16/03/2021 16:59:22
FREE FALL:
I think this is an important subject in deciding “what exactly is gravity”.

Ok, let us take astronauts on the international space station.  They are along with space station are in weightlessness condition. The space station is not in earth’s gravitational field.   At that particular altitude, the pull of the gravitational force is still 90 per cent as strong as on the earth’s surface. The astronauts’ weigtlessness is due to the fact that, along with their station, they are in free fall. Not in the kind of free fall that takes them directly towards the earth, but in free fall that takes them around the earth – in earth orbit.

On Earth’s surface where there is strong gravity, as per Newton the apple is coming down to the ground due to the force of gravity.

But as per Einstein, while coming down to the Earth, the apple is in free fall and it is a co-mover along with gravity.

01  Here this is an important point.
02  If there is no force or pressure, the apple will remain at that exact place.
03  It is here, gravity is exerting pressure on the apple and keeping it in free fall.
04  At any particular place, if the pressure/ force of gravity stops, apple also stays at that place.
05  Free fall doesn’t mean absence of gravity.
06  There is gravity and it is the gravity taking you down.
07  International space station and the astronauts are also experiencing 90 percent gravity.  But they are in free fall.
08  It signifies that gravity field is moving in the space.
09  Gravity field in the solar system is not at rest or stationary.  It is moving.
10  While moving, it is dragging the planets, everything.
11  Free fall is nothing but, on Earth's surface, gravity takes you down, on space it takes or moves you according to its flow, whether it is geodesics or not.
12  Free fall is not absence of gravity, but moving according to gravity.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 16/03/2021 20:35:29
The space station is not in earth’s gravitational field.

Yes, it is. If it wasn't, it couldn't be in orbit.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 17/03/2021 14:11:23
Basic
Isn't everything in everything else's gravity field? Ie to infinity?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 21/03/2021 17:34:15
METHOD OF “FREE FALL” / HOW GRAVITY WORKS:

Weightlessness poses a similar problem. Imagine you’re floating freely inside the elevator. Around you, other objects are floating, as well, and you feel totally weightless. Does that mean you are far away from all gravitational influences, far away from all stars, planets and other massive bodies, somewhere in deep space?

Einstein rightly deducted the above idea.  In free fall, objects  do not experience being accelerated downward, rather weightlessness and no acceleration.

It is true that International Space Station (ISS) and the crew are not in the Earth’s gravitational field and at that altitude still there is 90 per cent gravity. The astronauts’ weigtlessness is due to the fact that, along with their station, they are in free fall. Not in the kind of free fall that takes them directly towards the earth, but in free fall that takes them around the earth – in earth’s orbit.

Suppose, the apple is in the tree and it is under the strong influence of gravity.  If the apple start coming to the ground, it is in free fall, there is no weight but there is acceleration.  Ok, let us take Earth, it is in free fall around Sun.  It is moving in the curved path created by Sun.

As per Einstein, free fall is nothing but weightlessness and no acceleration.  But there is acceleration and it is due to gravity only.  At the same Newton theory is not correct since the object is in weightlessness.

01  It is true that every object curves the space time around them and apple is no exception to this.  It also curves the space time around it.
02  It is in the strong Gravity field of Earth.
03  As per General relativity, gravity is a “spatial flow” and the apple is coming in its way.
04   Ok, apple also curved or distorted space time around it.  As per General relativity something is flowing towards the centre of the Earth and its exact details are not known.
05  I had termed this spatial flow as “Gravity field”.
06  Spatial flow while moving down creates pressure / force against apple also.
07  Unless there is change in the elevator, moves up, down there is no impact at all.  If the elevator moves up, something is moving down, nothing but gravity field and it pushes you down.
08  Spatial flow, while moving down, flows along with the curved space of the apple.  While moving down it creates pressure or drags the apple.
09  Here there is no direct impact.  It is the curved space which plays key role.  For example, let us take two objects, bowling ball and apple.  Though both curves the space time, it all depends on the mass of the object.  So, the more the mass of an object, the influence of gravity is higher.
10 This is the reason, if two objects, let us take bowling ball and apple, if dropped from a vacuum chamber, fall to the ground at the same rate.
11  While creating vacuum, we are removing air, along with the air, gravity field is also moving out.  In the absence of gravity field, both bowling ball and the apple, cannot curve or distort space time, even if, it is far limited.  Gravity or spatial flow while passing through them, moves out without creating pressure.
12  In the case of planets also, they curve the space time around them.  The gravity field present in the solar system is not at rest and it is moving.  While moving, it is creating pressure / force on the curved space of the planet, in fact it flows in geodesics, drags the planet.
13  I have been repeatedly saying that “inertia” is not correct and the planets are not moving freely as such.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Zer0 on 21/03/2021 18:46:48
@pasala
Hello Sir!
🙏

Why is it that You always Specify the Apple falling onto the Earth?
🤔

Why can it Not be the other way around...that the whole damm planet is rising up to catch the falling Apple?

P.S. - 🍏
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 21/03/2021 19:39:56
@pasala
Hello Sir!
🙏

Why is it that You always Specify the Apple falling onto the Earth?
🤔

Why can it Not be the other way around...that the whole damm planet is rising up to catch the falling Apple?

P.S. - 🍏

Technically, both accelerate towards each other.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: charles1948 on 21/03/2021 19:53:28
@pasala
Hello Sir!
🙏

Why is it that You always Specify the Apple falling onto the Earth?
🤔

Why can it Not be the other way around...that the whole damm planet is rising up to catch the falling Apple?

P.S. - 🍏

Technically, both accelerate towards each other.

So, could you say that whenever you walk through your front-door, into your house. the house and door are accelerating towards you?

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Halc on 21/03/2021 20:30:26
Why is it that You always Specify the Apple falling onto the Earth?

Why can it Not be the other way around...that the whole damm planet is rising up to catch the falling Apple?
Technically, both accelerate towards each other.
Under any theory, acceleration is absolute, as required by conservation of momentum.

Under Newtonian physics, both accelerate towards each other, but the apple accelerates much more than does Earth such that the momentum change of each of them is equal and opposite.

Under Einstein's physics, the ground exerts a force on the tree accelerating the tree away from the recently detached apple.  The apple doesn't accelerate at all, instead following a geodesic. An accelerometer on the apple would read zero g. The ground immediately under the tree (not the whole Earth) traces a curved path through spacetime due to the compressive net EM force being exerted on it from below. An accelerometer on the ground would measure that one g of proper acceleration.

So, could you say that whenever you walk through your front-door, into your house. the house and door are accelerating towards you?
In this instance, the house accelerating would result in a change of momentum that is not balanced by any equal and opposite change. It violates momentum conservation. No force can account for such acceleration.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Zer0 on 22/03/2021 10:08:41
Pasala probably broke the keyboard...coz soo much typin could break up the even the best quality keyboard...unless the Gentleman uses a Cell/Mobil phone...possible side effects are sore & fatty fingers...could be referred to as Elephant Syndrome.
🐘
@pasala U aware of Speech to Text Software?
🤭
Yeaaa! Thank me laterz!

P.S. - @Halc reading your posts make Me feel dizzy & tipsy...juzt lyk Beer!
🍺
(U shud prapz add a " intoxicating substance " Warning at the end of ur posts)
🥴
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 22/03/2021 16:09:40
Pasala probably broke the keyboard...coz soo much typin could break up the even the best quality keyboard...unless the Gentleman uses a Cell/Mobil phone...possible side effects are sore & fatty fingers...could be referred to as Elephant Syndrome.
🐘
@pasala U aware of Speech to Text Software?
🤭
Yeaaa! Thank me laterz!

P.S. - @Halc reading your posts make Me feel dizzy & tipsy...juzt lyk Beer!
🍺
(U shud prapz add a " intoxicating substance " Warning at the end of ur posts)
🥴
Mr Zero
I could not understand what you are.  I think it is better to stop this type of postings.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 22/03/2021 16:52:07
Quote from: Kryptid on Yesterday at 19:39:56
Quote from: Zer0 on Yesterday at 18:46:48
Why is it that You always Specify the Apple falling onto the Earth?

Why can it Not be the other way around...that the whole damm planet is rising up to catch the falling Apple?
Technically, both accelerate towards each other.
Under any theory, acceleration is absolute, as required by conservation of momentum.

Under Newtonian physics, both accelerate towards each other, but the apple accelerates much more than does Earth such that the momentum change of each of them is equal and opposite.

Under Einstein's physics, the ground exerts a force on the tree accelerating the tree away from the recently detached apple.  The apple doesn't accelerate at all, instead following a geodesic. An accelerometer on the apple would read zero g. The ground immediately under the tree (not the whole Earth) traces a curved path through spacetime due to the compressive net EM force being exerted on it from below. An accelerometer on the ground would measure that one g of proper acceleration.
That is right.  Let us imagine that you are in a elevator and it is accelerating forward.  If you let a ball to fall, for the third person, it is not clear whether the bottom of the elevator is raising towards the ball or the ball towards bottom.

01  Elevator is a small area to decide anything.
02  If the elevator is lifted, we have to remember an important point that we are lifting the frame of the elevator only.
03  In turn it lifts the contents there in.
04  It is also proved that unless there is a change, up or down, there is no change within the elevator.
05  When the elevator is moved up, gravity is moving down, pushing you down.
06  When you left or drop the ball, elevator is not at rest or stationary.  It is moving.
07  Definitely, by the time the ball reaches bottom, bottom of the elevator is already moving up.
08  Isn't it something wrong assumption?.
09  For an apple, Earth is a huge mass.
10  Free fall is correct  It is the Gravity, taking you down.  If there is no gravity, as assumed by Newton the ball will remain then and there in the tree itself.
11  From the elevator example it is clear that gravity is a field present on the Earth.
12  Huge masses such as Earth curves or distorts space time in which other small masses such as Moon rotates.
13  As per Einstein, apple did not fell on the head of Newton,  Earth moved Newton,  tree, everything to the apple.
14  For Einstein, free fall is weightlessness and no acceleration.  But there is acceleration.

We have to take Einstein theory further.  From the closed elevator it is clear that, there is weight.  If the space ship is far away from all masses, there is gravity inside as long as it accelerated at 9.81 m/s2.  But we are forgetting that the cabin of the space ship is locked in a strong gravity field.  As long as the space ship accelerate, this field is remaining and this small amount of field is giving same results as that of on Earth.  Ones it reaches destination, slowly this field disappears, in other words it is having an important quality of moving from high to low.
Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Zer0 on 23/03/2021 15:51:36
@pasala

Hello!
🙏

👍

Anywhichways, i am hardly able to comprehend what it is that you effortlessly keep goin on n on about.
😵

Just felt a " Speech to Text " software would help You out...considering your posts are such short & brief.
👍

P.S. - Anyways, All the Very Best in your pursuit... whatever that it is you're pursuing.
Not Yours,
0!
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/03/2021 16:34:57
HOW GRAVITY WORKS:
“Matter tells space how to curve, and curved space tells matter how to move”.

That's the basic principle behind Einstein's General Relativity, which linked, for the first time, the phenomenon of gravity with that of spacetime and relativity.

Place a mass down anywhere in the Universe, and the space around it will be curved in response.

No doubt, it is the outstanding and wonderful idea of Einstein.

Event 1:
01   Ok, suppose scientists have developed a new satellite to be launched into the space.
02   Let us take its weight as 10 kgs.  As usual it also curved or distorted space time around it.

Event 2:
01   Now scientists have launched the satellite into the space.
02   Here, once again it curves the space time around it.
03   But there is no weight, in other words it is in weightlessness condition.
04   We are talking about Gravity or weight, whether it is in inertia or not.

Same mass, satellite, gravity is giving weight on Earth and weightlessness in space.  Here on Earth, curved space time is telling satellite to move towards the Earth and in space, same curved space is telling satellite to go round the Earth.

Why this difference?.  It Is true that, at both the places the satellite curved the space time around it.

But there is something influencing this curved space of the satellite.  It appears that Einstein new this, but he could not.

Ok, let us take that, on a full moon day, moon is reflecting back light received from Sun.  It is not producing any energy,  simply reflecting back additional energy only.

01   It is true that Moon curves the space time around it.
02   Energy coming from the Sun is charging the gravity field of Moon.
03   Additional energy is moving into the space time of the Earth and charging the curved space.
04    Suppose, all the planets are at rest, energy moves in straight line.
05   Now, suppose, for any reason, curved or distorted space of Sun started moving.
06   Definitely, it will be having its impact on Earth and Moon.
07   Now, energy moving in straight, start bending.
08   Well, it is true that space time of Moon is curved or distorted.
09   Now energy coming from Sun, in a sloped manner, enters the curved space of Moon.  It start moving along with curved space in geodesics.
10   In turn, this curved space tells mass how to move.
11   Since moon start rotating surplus energy coming from Moon moves in sloped manner.
12   In turn it charges the gravity field of Earth.
13   This charge is not straight but in a sloped manner.
14   Whether it is straight or sloped, water will not move unless there is a movement.

It clearly tells us that there is a medium, energy and it is causing or aiding mass to curve the space time and to rotate.

What else proof is needed.

Ok, scientists have developed a satellite, weighing 10 kgs.  As per General relativity every mass curves the space time and hence satellite is no exception.

01   Satellite also curves or distorts space time around it.
02   As assumed by general relativity, gravity is a “spatial flow”.
03   So, there is a medium or energy is flowing towards the centre of the Earth.
04   While flowing, as happened in the case of Moon, it start moving along the curved space of the satellite.
05    In turn it drags or forces, which is known as weight, towards the ground.

In the space:
01   Here also, no doubt satellite curves or distort the space time around it.
02   Energy flowing in the space, moves along with the curved space.
03   Satellite start moving along with spatial flow.
04   If the satellite resist, it is weight.  But it is not as it is on Earth, due to several reasons.

In a vacuum chamber:
01   All the masses weigh equally.
02   They also fall at the same rate.
03   Gravity or weight is directly proportional to curved space or distorted space.  This is the reason, Newtons inverse square law appears to be true at several places.
04   In a vacuum chamber all the masses fails to curve the space around them.
05   In the absence of curved space, influence of gravity is far limited or nothing and hence all the masses fall to the ground at the same rate.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 14/04/2021 12:44:35
Even now, gravity is a mysterious one.  On Earth it is giving weight, where as in space, it is giving weightlessness and free fall.

Basic difference is, why gravity is behaving differently on Earth and in space, though same medium or field.

As per Einstein’s thought experiment it is clear that there is gravity inside the closed elevator and it is giving same weight as that of on Earth.  If the elevator is moved up, Einstein did not notice one important point that we are lifting the frame only and in turn it drags the contents therein, gravity start pooling or concentrating at the bottom.

Ok, suppose if you accelerate in a car, we have to remember that engine is moving the frame and in turn frame drags the contents therein including gravity field.  When the car accelerates forward, gravity that is spread equally, start collecting at the end, pushing you backward.  Here, we can notice two important qualities of gravity, collecting at the end shows it’s heavier.  If the car attains velocity, it once again neutralizes, so another quality of moving from high to low.

Ok, let us revisit what Galileo Galilei wrote about the relative motion of objects, even before Newton had his work.

“If you are in a closed room on a ship sailing at a constant speed and the ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as they would on land. There’s no physical experiment you could conduct to tell whether you’re moving or stationary (assuming you’re not peeking out of a porthole). This is the core idea behind relativity, and is the same reason why we don’t feel our planet’s movement around the sun, or our solar system’s movement through the galaxy”.

Galileo’s equivalence principle is extra-ordinary:
01   If you are in a closed room of a ship, sailing at a constant speed and if ride is perfectly smooth, objects behave as if on land.
02   One can not differentiate, moving or stationary.
03   This is the reason, why we don’t feel our planet’s movement around the Sun or solar system’s movement through the galaxy.

Galileo’s equivalence is between:
“Closed room”  to “Earth”.

“If you are in a closed room and if sailing is smooth, objects behave as if on land”.

Galileo says, in a closed room, if the sailing is smooth, he could not differentiate, whether he is in the room of a ship or on Earth.

By this we can draw conclusion that Earth is a closed one, as that of a room, what else proof is needed.

Since Earth is a closed one it is paving way for pooling or concentration of Gravity field.  It is not an instant one.
01   Closed elevator clearly tells us that this field is heavier and it also moves from high to low.
02   Since it is heavier, it appears that it is moving towards Earth, we are getting the feeling that it is a spatial flow.
03   Suppose let us take that you are in a water pond, on the surface, you will get the feeling of weightlessness.  As you go deeper and deeper, one will get the feeling of weight.
04   Ok, suppose there is a water canal and water is flowing in one way.  If you start your journey along with water movement, it takes you down effortlessly.  If you try to move in opposite direction, you have to put total energy.
05   Let us imagine that you are in the middle of water pond, if you don’t put any effort water takes you down, it is free fall.
06   In case if you want to go to surface, definitely you have to use energy, to overcome water resistance, it is gravity.
07   If you go deep in the pond, water density increases, similarly gravity field density is also increasing on Earth’s surface.
08   We are taking this density as Gravity.
09   This density is higher on Earth’s surface when compared to gravity field in the outer surface.
10   As the density increases, its effect on the objects also increases.
11   Apple is coming down to the Earth, it is in free fall.  At the same time, Gravity is pushing the apple.  So, both the theories, Newton and Einstein are correct.
12   In the outer space, as that of water canal, there is a flow of medium or gravity.  Planets are not in free fall by themselves.  If you are in a water canal, without putting any effort water takes you down.
13   Similarly there is a flow of energy in the outer space.  As assumed by Einstein, if you place any mass in the space it will curve the space around it.
14   Curvature or distortion of space is only feature of mass.  It only gives weightlessness.
15   It is only due to flow of energy in the lanes, planets are in free fall or moving or going round the Sun.
16   Rotation  of planets clearly indicates, how and where the medium or gravity is flowing or moving.

Einstein’s equivalence is between:
“Closed room of a ship” to “Closed room of a space ship”.
01   Einstein’s idea is that, there is also gravity in the “room of a space ship”, which is far away from mass.
02   His idea is that, thrust of the engine of space ship has created or developed gravity field inside the room of the space ship. Gravity due to thrust of the engine and the gravity field on Earth are one and  the same.

But, Einstein forgot one important point. The cabin of the space ship, as that of elevator, is locked here on Earth, in the strong gravity field.  For that there is no proof,   thrust of engine increasing or decreasing gravity.  Since the cabin is closed here on Earth, a part of the gravity is also locked.  It is surprise to see, gravity field even in small area such as cabin, giving same weight.

Here, Einstein’s equivalence is proper and valid though idea is wrong.

Whereas the Galileo’s equivalence is different, it is in between closed room of a ship to Earth.  So, indirectly he wants to convey the message that Earth is a closed one.

Saying that Earth is not closed but open is easy.   Here, we have to remember one important point that it is paving way for gravity field on Earth.  If Earth’s doors and windows are strong, strong gravity, if weak, weak gravity.

Gravity on Earth is behaving like water in a pond.  There is strong gravity field on this Earth.  As assumed by Einstein, if a person dives from top of the building, he is a co-mover along with gravity.  It is true that he is in free fall.  But without gravity or in the absence of gravity field on Earth, as assumed by Newton, he will remain at the top itself.  If you dives into water pond, one need not put any effort, it takes you down.

Well, water in the pond or medium is appearing to us, but the gravity field is not appearing or invisible to our naked eye.  But its effects clearly tells us that it is a field present on the Earth.

Since space of the Earth is closed, this field is behaving like water in the pond.  In case if it is not closed, things will be different, the medium flowing in the space will touch earth and we will feel its effects directly.  There is no scope for rotation except it will go round the Sun, revolution.

Galileo’s equivalence clearly tells us that Earth is having doors and windows and it is paving way for Gravity field.  Since this field is stable it is behaving like water in the pond.

Now science developed a lot and we have to explore different possibilities how Earth got this doors and windows or closed from all sides.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 26/04/2021 18:15:44
CURVED SPACE TIME:
Matter tells space how to curve, and curved space tells matter how to move. That's the basic principle behind Einstein's General Relativity, which linked, for the first time, the phenomenon of gravity with that of spacetime and relativity. Place a mass down anywhere in the Universe, and the space around it will curve in response.

In general relativity, spacetime is not 'flat' but is curved by the presence of massive bodies.

Ok, let us study it with simple analogy, considering space-time as a rubber sheet that can be deformed:

01   The presence of a massive body curves space-time, as if a bowling ball were placed on the rubber sheet to create a cuplike depression.
02   If a marble is placed near the depression it will roll down the slope toward the bowling ball as if pulled by a force. It will go around the bowling ball, in a path distorted or created by bowling ball.

That is right:
01   It is true that Earth is a huge mass and it curved or distorted space time.
02   Well, of course, it is not clear, place or area up to which it curved the space time.
03   For that it is a mathematical model, never tells us what exactly this curved space time is.
04   Suppose, If Earth curved or distorted space time up to Moon, light is not bending, in the space in between.  So, definitely, there is no curvature at all.
05   For that, we are taking curved space time for Gravity.  Gravity is present near to the masses only.
06   Space in between Earth and Moon is 2d only.

It is true that:
01   Light bending clearly tells us that, Sun curved the space time near to it only.
02   Whereas it created paths or distorted space time up to the end of solar system.
03   In fact Earth also curved space time near to it only.
04   But it distorted or created path up to wide area.

Unless we separate these two things:
01   Space time curved by a Mass and
02   Curved paths created by a Mass

No progress can be achieved.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 26/04/2021 20:19:32
Gravity is present near to the masses only.

Nope. Gravity has an infinite range.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Origin on 26/04/2021 22:23:05
Space in between Earth and Moon is 2d only.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: evan_au on 26/04/2021 22:37:18
Quote from: Pasala
Ok, let us study it with simple analogy, considering space-time as a rubber sheet that can be deformed: ....
06   Space in between Earth and Moon is 2d only.
It's good that you realize that a rubber sheet is a simple analogy for gravity.
- But don't use that simple analogy to make entirely wrong deductions about real gravity.

In our spacetime (3D space + time), gravity follows an inverse-square law, which implies that gravity has an infinite range.
- I imagine that in a hypothetical 2D space, the strength of gravity would have an inverse relation with distance (?). This also implies an infinite range (unless you imagine this 2D space to be a finite rubber sheet...).
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/04/2021 15:51:27
Quote from: Pasala
Ok, let us study it with simple analogy, considering space-time as a rubber sheet that can be deformed: ....
06   Space in between Earth and Moon is 2d only.
- But don't use that simple analogy to make entirely wrong deductions about real gravity.

In our spacetime (3D space + time), gravity follows an inverse-square law, which implies that gravity has an infinite range.
- I imagine that in a hypothetical 2D space, the strength of gravity would have an inverse relation with distance (?). This also implies an infinite range (unless you imagine this 2D space to be a finite rubber sheet...).

Thank you,

Well, of course,  not that gravity having infinite range but it is inverse square law.  I think there is no limit or boundary to inverse square law.

Basic question is how a mass, half universe away attract another mass.

Please look at the side heading "curved space time" and the discussion is about, two things, curved space time and curved paths.  Basically I could not get much or any information about curved paths.  It appears that both are inter-linked.

Sir,  I knew or every body knows that it is analogy only.

For that, from Einstein's maths it is not clear, how this curved space time came into existence and what exactly it consists of.  But, mostly it moves around stress, energy and momentum.  I could not found, how this stress, energy, momentum contribute to this curved space time.

In my view, gravity has finite range only, which i will discuss it latter.

Science developed a lot.  We have to read all the theories loudly, at the same time there is every need to analyse them.  At present we are of the opinion that all the planets are in "inertia", following exact path.  Here also inverse square law has got exact answer.  If that is true, there is no need to go to Einstein theories.  Please see that even Einstein theories are incomplete.

In my opinion, gravity field on earth is like water in the pond with exact boundaries and is exerting pressure on all objects.  Similarly, there is a gravity field in the space, without boundary but it is flowing in exact path like water in canal and it is causing "inertia".

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 28/04/2021 16:50:46
In my opinion, gravity field on earth is like water in the pond with exact boundaries

Then your opinion goes against the existing evidence.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 28/04/2021 17:09:27
In my opinion, gravity field on earth is like water in the pond with exact boundaries

Then your opinion goes against the existing evidence.

I think Pasala is confusing the gravitational field with a potato field.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 29/04/2021 12:04:38
In my opinion, gravity field on earth is like water in the pond with exact boundaries

Then your opinion goes against the existing evidence.
It's ok.  Whatever i had said is an extension to Galileo's equivalence principle.  "If you are in a closed room of a ship, sailing smoothly, one cannot distinguish whether he is in a closed room of a ship or on Earth".

Mr. Kryptid, please tells me what does it mean.  It is direct comparison in between:
01  Closed room of a ship, sailing smoothly to
02  Earth.
It clearly tells us that, Earth is like a closed room of a ship.  Since Earth is a closed one, it paved the way for formation of Gravity field on Earth and this field is working like water in a pond.  Here, Einstein's equivalence is different one.

Ok, please tells me, how it differs with existing evidence.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Origin on 29/04/2021 13:26:04
In my opinion, gravity field on earth is like water in the pond with exact boundaries and is exerting pressure on all objects.
Where are these boundries?  Is the boundary a sharp line or does the gravity fade out over some distance?  What do you mean gravity exerts pressure?
Similarly, there is a gravity field in the space, without boundary
The gravity in space is different than gravity on a planet?  Where does "space gravity" come from?  Why is "space gravity" unbounded but "mass gravity" is bounded?
it is flowing in exact path like water in canal and it is causing "inertia".
How does gravity flow?  How can "space gravity" flow in an exact path and also be unbounded?  Does the "earth gravity" cause inertia just like "space gravity".  Inertia is a property of a mass to resist a change in velocity, how does gravity cause inertia?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 29/04/2021 16:21:31
In my opinion, gravity field on earth is like water in the pond with exact boundaries and is exerting pressure on all objects.
Where are these boundries?  Is the boundary a sharp line or does the gravity fade out over some distance?  What do you mean gravity exerts pressure?
Similarly, there is a gravity field in the space, without boundary
The gravity in space is different than gravity on a planet?  Where does "space gravity" come from?  Why is "space gravity" unbounded but "mass gravity" is bounded?
it is flowing in exact path like water in canal and it is causing "inertia".
How does gravity flow?  How can "space gravity" flow in an exact path and also be unbounded?  Does the "earth gravity" cause inertia just like "space gravity".  Inertia is a property of a mass to resist a change in velocity, how does gravity cause inertia?
Ok, origin, have you read my reply dated 14/04/2021.  If not please go through it.  When it is "inertia", it is not only resistance but also uniform motion.

What I am saying is that, Einstein's equivalence principle is  incorrect.  The cabin of the  space ship is locked here on Earth, where there is strong Gravity.  Even after locking the cabin, Mr. X's weight continues to be 75 kgs only.  If it is a spatial flow, how the small field within a cabin is giving same weight.  As the Space ship accelerates forward, Gravity in the outside field goes on decreasing, but there is no change in the weight of Mr.X.  For that there is no proof, thrust of the engine increasing or decreasing or influencing gravity field.  When the space ship is in acceleration or attains velocity, there is no change in gravity field in the cabin.

Ones the space ship reaches destination, space time of the cabin start interacting with the outside space time and adjusts according to outside space.  It clearly tells us that Gravity can be packed within small area such as cabin and moved.

Ok, origin, if you are in a car, accelerating forward, gravity pushes you backward.  Here, we have to remember one important point that, your car engine is pulling your car frame only and this frame in turn, moves you and the gravity field within your car.  As the frame pushes gravity field, it start concentrating at the end, pushing you backward.  As the car attains velocity it once again neutralizes.

What else proof is needed.  These things shows that gravity is a field present on the Earth.

In the case of equivalence principle also, Einstein's idea is that, why there is gravity in the cabin of the space ship which is in deep space far away from mass.  Most of the concentration of Einstein is on equating, cabin of the space ship to Earth.  But he did not talk about Galileo's equivalence.  What Einstein says, there is also equivalence in the cabin of the  space ship.

Galileo's equivalence is different.  What Galileo says, in a closed room, if the sailing is smooth, it is giving the feeling of on Earth.  It is in between, closed room to Earth.  This is the reason, every body, including top scientists new that we are not feeling our journey in our solar system and also in the universe.

Galileo's equivalence clearly tells us that our earth is like a closed room.  In my view, since Earth is a closed one it is paving way for gravity field.  I had compared this gravity field with water in a pond.  If you are on the surface of water, it is weightlessness.  As you move down, it is free fall.  At the bottom, as the density increases, it is weight.  It is simple comparison only.

I had put forth mine idea, that may be correct or not to be decided through testing.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 29/04/2021 17:04:42
Ok, please tells me, how it differs with existing evidence.

It's at odds with the inverse square law, which suggests that gravity does not have a limit to the distance over which it can act.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Origin on 29/04/2021 17:49:41
Ok, origin, if you are in a car, accelerating forward, gravity pushes you backward.  Here, we have to remember one important point that, your car engine is pulling your car frame only and this frame in turn, moves you and the gravity field within your car.  As the frame pushes gravity field, it start concentrating at the end, pushing you backward.  As the car attains velocity it once again neutralizes.
Silly me, I thought it had something to do with F = ma.  Does that mean for a rocket accelerating far from a gravity source an occupant in the rocket would not be pushed back in the seat?  Does that also mean that on the moon you would get a different force pushing you back in the seat for the exact same acceleration on earth?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 29/04/2021 19:07:25
In my opinion, gravity field on earth is like water in the pond with exact boundaries and is exerting pressure on all objects.
Where are these boundries?  Is the boundary a sharp line or does the gravity fade out over some distance?  What do you mean gravity exerts pressure?
Similarly, there is a gravity field in the space, without boundary
The gravity in space is different than gravity on a planet?  Where does "space gravity" come from?  Why is "space gravity" unbounded but "mass gravity" is bounded?
it is flowing in exact path like water in canal and it is causing "inertia".
How does gravity flow?  How can "space gravity" flow in an exact path and also be unbounded?  Does the "earth gravity" cause inertia just like "space gravity".  Inertia is a property of a mass to resist a change in velocity, how does gravity cause inertia?

As an object is thrown upwards it loses kinetic energy and gains potential energy. This can be viewed as an increase in inertia. When the objects starts falling we then have an increase in kinetic energy and a decrease in potential energy. This can be viewed as a decrease in inertia. This also shows why gravitational and inertial mass are equivalent.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 29/04/2021 19:12:27
BTW As clocks tick faster the further away they are from a gravitational source, this increase in inertia, as an object moves away from the source, ties in with a decrease in time dilation. Since the velocity is slowing down, this makes sense.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 29/04/2021 19:18:46
Also, if an object has exactly the escape be velocity of the gravitating object it will eventually stop when it is an infinite distance away. Since it will never be an infinite distance away it will never stop. Just keep slowing down. Zeno's paradox anyone?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 29/04/2021 19:20:06
Chew on that Pasala.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 01/05/2021 17:43:20
Ok, origin, if you are in a car, accelerating forward, gravity pushes you backward.  Here, we have to remember one important point that, your car engine is pulling your car frame only and this frame in turn, moves you and the gravity field within your car.  As the frame pushes gravity field, it start concentrating at the end, pushing you backward.  As the car attains velocity it once again neutralizes.
Silly me, I thought it had something to do with F = ma.  Does that mean for a rocket accelerating far from a gravity source an occupant in the rocket would not be pushed back in the seat?  Does that also mean that on the moon you would get a different force pushing you back in the seat for the exact same acceleration on earth?
Here, Einstein has a different thinking, "you woke up in a space ship, far away, in deep space, you can not differentiate whether on land or in  deep space".

It is true that Newtons inverse square law is incorrect and Einstein succeeded in diverting our attention to Space time.  But Einstein himself could not come out of Inverse square law.  In the words of Einstein, "you are far away from gravitational mass" clearly tells how his mind is set.

His idea is, the space ship is far away, in deep space, still there is gravity, how?.

He looked at thrust of the engine as may be responsible.  It is completely wrong and there is no proof thrust of the engine increasing or decreasing gravity or affecting gravity field.

Ok, let us imagine that you are on Earth and your weight is 60 kgs.  One of your friend is on Moon and his weight is 10 kgs, original weight on earth is 60 kgs, but due to weak gravity.  Suppose both of you decided to meet another mutual friend, who is working as crew member in ISS.

When the space ship accelerates forward, your weight continues to be 60 kgs only.  Space ship while accelerating, drags the cabin in which you are staying and in turn cabin drags you and the contents therein, gravity field.  It results in accumulation of high density gravity field at the bottom, pushing you backward.

Your friend on Moon, boarded a space ship, as it accelerates, as usual it drags the cabin, and the cabin in turn, drags the contents including gravity.  Since weak gravity is packed, additional gravity is also weak, insufficient to give any effect, even if, when compared to Earth it is just 1/6th effect only.

As both of you reaches ISS, where density of gravity field is weak when compared to Earth and Moon, gravity field inside space ships,  your  and your friend, start adjusting with that of outside.

Now, yourself and your friends decided to come back Earth.  Here we have to remember one important  point that your cabin of the space ship is locked in weak gravity field, and thus weak gravity prevails in cabin and you are in weightlessness condition.  As the space ship accelerates forward, cabin as usual drags you and the gravity field.  However gravity field is so weak that additional gravity is insufficient to push you back.

Gravity inside the cabin of the space ship, which is in deep space, clearly tells us that gravity field can be packed and moved.  Further as the space ship reaches destination, it start adjusting with the outside gravity field.  So, it is having important quality of moving from high to low.

Gravity at a particular place mainly depends on the density of the Gravity field and it is no way related to mass.

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 01/05/2021 17:47:08
It is true that Newtons inverse square law is incorrect

Since when?

His idea is, the space ship is far away, in deep space, still there is gravity, how?.

It isn't literally gravity. It's just that the effects of acceleration on a ship are the same as the effects of gravity.

Gravity at a particular place mainly depends on the density of the Gravity field and it is no way related to mass.

That is very wrong. Look up the gravitational constant.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 01/05/2021 17:52:59
Chew on that Pasala.
jeffreyH,
I am sure, no body, including me, has any capacity to comment or say on Einstein's effects of gravity.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 01/05/2021 18:07:34
It is true that Newtons inverse square law is incorrect

Since when?

His idea is, the space ship is far away, in deep space, still there is gravity, how?.

It isn't literally gravity. It's just that the effects of acceleration on a ship are the same as the effects of gravity.

Gravity at a particular place mainly depends on the density of the Gravity field and it is no way related to mass.

That is very wrong. Look up the gravitational constant.
Oh!, kryptid;
Any theory, including Gravity, finally one theory must prevail either Newton or Einstein.  When Inverse square law is "universal law of gravitation", what is there need to go Einstein's space time.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 01/05/2021 18:34:02
Chew on that Pasala.
jeffreyH,
I am sure, no body, including me, has any capacity to comment or say on Einstein's effects of gravity.

There are no Einstein effects of gravity, only gravitational effects. You confuse the scientist with the theory. Schoolboy error. It is astonishing what lengths you will go to to embarrass yourself.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Origin on 01/05/2021 19:16:48
Gravity inside the cabin of the space ship, which is in deep space, clearly tells us that gravity field can be packed and moved.
You do have some interesting ideas.  I have to ask this question.  If you are in a car and the car accelerates you will be pushed back in your seat, but helium balloons in the car would float to the front of the car.  Why do you think that happens?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 02/05/2021 08:01:05
Chew on that Pasala.
jeffreyH,
I am sure, no body, including me, has any capacity to comment or say on Einstein's effects of gravity.

There are no Einstein effects of gravity, only gravitational effects. You confuse the scientist with the theory. Schoolboy error. It is astonishing what lengths you will go to to embarrass yourself.
Ok, for a simple mistake, you need not go lengths.  Seeing at 3 different replies, not replies but questionnaire for entrance examination, I had suspected that you did not come for a discussion.  Now, by this simple mistake your original came out.

Mr. jeffreyH,
I think you are trying to check my qualification.  See, I am not a researcher, postgraduate, for that not even science graduate.  There is no need for me to hide anything, I am a commerce graduate.  I am proud to announce that I am a science enthusiast.

At the early school days, I like reading science lessons like interesting stories and use to allot separate pages in the note books for my own conclusions.  In my view there are several theories incorrect and i am trying hard to prove them.

If you are interested, come join or otherwise it's ok.........

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Origin on 03/05/2021 13:09:22
See, I am not a researcher, postgraduate, for that not even science graduate.  There is no need for me to hide anything, I am a commerce graduate.  I am proud to announce that I am a science enthusiast.
You are not really a science enthusiast.  Someone who is interested in science would learn science.  You like to make up things based on a lack of knowledge.  If you were really a science enthusiast you would ask questions here to increase your knowledge of science instead of making incorrect conjectures.  I think you are a pseudoscience enthusiast.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 03/05/2021 15:40:02
***
See, I am not a researcher, postgraduate, for that not even science graduate.  There is no need for me to hide anything, I am a commerce graduate.  I am proud to announce that I am a science enthusiast.
You are not really a science enthusiast.  Someone who is interested in science would learn science.  You like to make up things based on a lack of knowledge.  If you were really a science enthusiast you would ask questions here to increase your knowledge of science instead of making incorrect conjectures.  I think you are a pseudoscience enthusiast.
I don't know whether it is by yourself or somebody else.

Ok, "Do good and avoid Evil".

If the owners of the "naked scientists forum" opines that mine ideas are improper then I am ready to quit.  For next 15 days I am not going to login, by that time any one of them including moderators can give their opinion.

Right, goodbye
Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Origin on 03/05/2021 17:03:28
I don't know whether it is by yourself or somebody else.
You quoted me, so it is me.
Ok, "Do good and avoid Evil".
I will try.
If the owners of the "naked scientists forum" opines that mine ideas are improper then I am ready to quit.
Your ideas are in conflict with the mainstream theories which yield results consistent with observation and experiments.  So your ideas are incorrect.  I don't know why you would quit though, why not ask questions and learn?
On the other hand if it makes you happy to make up stuff that's OK, there are many on this site who do just that, all I am saying is don't thinking making stuff up is science.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: MichaelMD on 04/05/2021 08:03:21
Gravity inside the cabin of the space ship, which is in deep space, clearly tells us that gravity field can be packed and moved.
You do have some interesting ideas.  I have to ask this question.  If you are in a car and the car accelerates you will be pushed back in your seat, but helium balloons in the car would float to the front of the car.  Why do you think that happens?

Does your question/thought problem refer to the theoretic difference between how Helium behaves generally/gravitationally versus locally/magnetically, after the car movement breaks the local pull of both the air inside the car and the helium?

(Of course, standard physics holds that the sole effect after the car starts moving is that the air inside the car pushes the passengers backwards.) -Your thought problem seems to head in a new direction?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Origin on 04/05/2021 13:29:15
Does your question/thought problem refer to the theoretic difference between how Helium behaves generally/gravitationally versus locally/magnetically, after the car movement breaks the local pull of both the air inside the car and the helium?
No.  I don't even know what you are talking about.
(Of course, standard physics holds that the sole effect after the car starts moving is that the air inside the car pushes the passengers backwards.)
Standard physics says no such thing.  Standard physics says an accelerating car seat pushes against the passengers.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: MichaelMD on 04/05/2021 16:14:20
Does your question/thought problem refer to the theoretic difference between how Helium behaves generally/gravitationally versus locally/magnetically, after the car movement breaks the local pull of both the air inside the car and the helium?
No.  I don't even know what you are talking about.
(Of course, standard physics holds that the sole effect after the car starts moving is that the air inside the car pushes the passengers backwards.)
Standard physics says no such thing.  Standard physics says an accelerating car seat pushes against the passengers.

What I was talking about was that you posted an observation of "something" interacting with an inertial system (car starting to move), associated with a differential effect on the behavior of two different gases (air and helium). -I was asking if you had a further point to make?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Origin on 06/05/2021 02:45:07
What I was talking about was that you posted an observation of "something" interacting with an inertial system (car starting to move), associated with a differential effect on the behavior of two different gases (air and helium). -I was asking if you had a further point to make?
The OP feels that gravity gets compressed or something when car accelerates so I wondered what he thought of the helium balloons in a car.  We know the balloons move forward when you accelerate a car because the acceleration causes the air pressure to increase in the back of the car.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 08/05/2021 23:57:36
Ok, "Do good and avoid Evil".

If the owners of the "naked scientists forum" opines that mine ideas are improper then I am ready to quit.  For next 15 days I am not going to login, by that time any one of them including moderators can give their opinion.

Right, goodbye
Yours
Psreddy
It depends what you mean by improper.
Most of your ideas on this thread are either wrong or misleading and the moderators have on occasions pointed this out to you, but we do not have the time to take up all the false statements you make.
We offer this New Theories section for anyone to offer their scientific or pseudoscientific ideas, so in that sense you are doing nothing improper. However, you say "Do good and avoid Evil"
Are you doing good? No, because your posts mislead others who might otherwise learn the truth.
Are you doing evil? Lead was removed from petrol because there was evidence that it reduced the IQ of children by 4 points. Posting incorrect information can also have detrimental effects on people by blocking their ability to understand the correct nature of science, which can then affect their performance and progress at school or work.

We do not have a problem with people presenting new concepts and ideas, but misrepresenting scientific ideas does no one any good.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Zer0 on 13/05/2021 22:36:24

Most Ideas are like Investments.

The more Time & Energy & Emotions invested...the more Reluctant one feels to back off or Quit.

But, when All you get are Negative returns, it's Wise to Stop!

P.S. - @pasala
🙏
Stay back with US... let's Grow up Together.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 13/05/2021 23:18:18
P.S. - @pasala
🙏
Stay back with US... let's Grow up Together.[/color]
All he has to do is listen and learn
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Zer0 on 15/05/2021 18:52:53

All he has to do is listen and learn
[/quote]

Easier Said, than Done.
Especially in this Case.
🙏

The User has been formulating their Own " Theory of Gravity " since 2015.

Going about Hypothesising this specific " Gravitational Supposition " since 2019.

Travelling steadily in a specific direction & gaining momentum since 692 days...
Nobody should ideally expect the individual to be capable of taking a sudden 180° " U " turn in just a matter of 15 days.
👎
(I am Aware the target has been set by the User himself)

Wish the Individual could have participated a little more in other sub- sections of the Forum.

Would have contributed to the community as well as learnt other relevant things which might have helped in modifying & formulation of their " Gravity Theory " in a harmonious manner in relation to Reality.
👍

P.S. - Really Appreciate your sheer level of Persistence in following what You feel is Right...But, Perhaps being a Realist helps out Alot on a Science Forum.

Tc! Pasala.
🍭

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 15/05/2021 18:55:10
Friends,
Well, I would like to tell everybody that I am not worrying about comments.  But worry is about future.

In my view, Newton’s inverse square law is not correct.  Einstein has taken up seriously and presented it in beautiful way.  I read General relativity several times.  Finally I came to know that GR on Gravity is incomplete.  Einstein says Curved space time as responsible for Gravity.  But he did not give us, what is curved space time is?,  how it is formed and creates gravity on a mass.  He has done wonderful thought experiments.  Einstein gave us instruments, maths for a lab test but did not talk about modus operandi, leaving us in confusion. Finally, he could not present us complete picture of “what exactly is gravity”, leaving the scientific world to depend on inverse square law.

I had read Einstein GR several times and noted important points.  Einstein theories are not ordinary, it is very, very difficult for an ordinary person to understand them.  Within short time, realised that Einstein has “wrong step” in his thought experiments itself.

Say:
“Is there any physical experiment you could do within the confines of your spaceship to tell whether you really were accelerating through space (assuming there were no windows to look out from), or if, instead, you were inside a spaceship stationary on the surface of Earth? Einstein said no—just as Galileo imagined the indistinguishability between a person inside a smooth-sailing ship (confined without windows) and a person on land, Einstein realised that the effects of acceleration and gravity were indistinguishable too. This is called the equivalence".

As per Galileo, equivalence is in between, closed room of a ship to Earth.  As per Einstein, it is in between closed cabin of a space ship to Earth.  It refers or gives us meaning that “there is also equivalence”.   But I could not found any discussion on Galileo’s equivalence anywhere.    Here it is not discussing about equivalence, but saying that there is also equivalence.  Unless we discuss about Galileo’s equivalence, there is no use in discussing another equivalence.

Einstein’s mind is set in such a way, mass as responsible for all gravity.  Spaceship is far away from all “gravitational mass”, clearly tells us how his thinking is going.

If the space ship is accelerating from a gravitational field, Einstein’s equivalence is correct.  Suppose if the space ship is in deep space, if it accelerates back to Earth there is no proof of “acceleration equating gravity”.

But, here we can deduct several important things on Gravity:
01   Cabin of the space ship is locked here in a strong gravitational field.
02   There is gravity as long as the space ship accelerates.
03    As the space ship reaches, gravity field inside the space ship is adjusting with that of outside space.
It clearly tells us:
01   Gravity can be packed in a small area and moved
02   Gravity is a field present on the Earth
03   This field adjusting with outside space, clearly tells its important quality of moving from high to low.
04  It is surprise to see, Gravity field in a small area such  as cabin or elevator is giving same results

One  of my friend, used the words proper and improper, and declared that mine ideas are improper.  Ok, you have every right to say, why mine ideas are improper.  I am sure that we are in the section of “NEW THEORIES”.  when ever there are comments that I am not following or mine ideas are not as per standard physics, it is surprise to me, used to check whether I am in the section New Theories or not.

For that, see all my replies, I use to present similarly, as is done now, as per standard physics with quotations and deducting mine ideas.

Here, moderators have every right to discuss anything.  Since we are in the section, new theories, they have to take up new ideas as well and have to discuss, whether they are correct or wrong.  Suppose, as presented by me, acceleration is not equal to gravity.   They have to take up this and compare it with standard physics and have to give their judgement why mine idea or theory is wrong.  If they feel that new theory or idea is correct, encourage them as well with your suggestions.

Saying, simply improper and is not as per standard physic and not useful to any one, is not correct.  We are in the section new theories and therefore, tell why new idea is incorrect.  If not, it is better to merge new theories with other one.

Friends, actually, I am not worried, about these comments, but worry is, in this scenario how can I present complete picture of “what exactly is gravity”.    It is not criticising Einstein theories but taking them further.

Gravity is a vast and difficult subject to be dealt with.  Unless there is co-operation, it is very difficult for me to move further.   Gravity is interlinked to several other theories.  So, unless we decide “what exactly is gravity”, further progress is impossible.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/05/2021 20:59:10
In my view, Newton’s inverse square law is not correct.

Based on what evidence?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/05/2021 21:53:14
In my view, Newton’s inverse square law is not correct.
An inverse square law is the only way you can get a stable orbit.
So it's pretty clear that any deviations from it must be tiny.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 16/05/2021 18:16:54
In my view, Newton’s inverse square law is not correct.
An inverse square law is the only way you can get a stable orbit.
So it's pretty clear that any deviations from it must be tiny.

As of now, inverse square law is the only way out for us.  Einstein's GR is incomplete, he could not say what is curved space time is, what it consists of, how it comes into existence, and how it is responsible for gravity.  For that  there is no perfect answer for "what exactly is gravity".

What I am saying is, as there is no choice we have to go for inverse square law.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 16/05/2021 19:22:33
In my view, Newton’s inverse square law is not correct.
An inverse square law is the only way you can get a stable orbit.
So it's pretty clear that any deviations from it must be tiny.

As of now, inverse square law is the only way out for us.  Einstein's GR is incomplete, he could not say what is curved space time is, what it consists of, how it comes into existence, and how it is responsible for gravity.  For that  there is no perfect answer for "what exactly is gravity".

What I am saying is, as there is no choice we have to go for inverse square law.

General relativity has passed every test that has been devised for it.  It incorporates the inverse square law. Are you clairvoyant? You seem to be in touch with the ghost of Einstein. Say hi from me and tell him he did a fantastic job.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 16/05/2021 23:13:41
In my view, Newton’s inverse square law is not correct.
As of now, inverse square law is the only way out for us.
What I am saying is, as there is no choice we have to go for inverse square law.
If it incorrect then we have a choice, we can go for what is correct.

Einstein's GR is incomplete, he could not say what is curved space time is, what it consists of, how it comes into existence, and how it is responsible for gravity.
Just because you don’t understand what curved space time is and how it is responsible for gravity doesn’t mean others don’t understand it.
Rather than reject what you don’t understand you should make an effort to understand it.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 17/05/2021 06:10:40
In my view, Newton’s inverse square law is not correct.
As of now, inverse square law is the only way out for us.
What I am saying is, as there is no choice we have to go for inverse square law.
If it incorrect then we have a choice, we can go for what is correct.

Einstein's GR is incomplete, he could not say what is curved space time is, what it consists of, how it comes into existence, and how it is responsible for gravity.
Just because you don’t understand what curved space time is and how it is responsible for gravity doesn’t mean others don’t understand it.
Rather than reject what you don’t understand you should make an effort to understand it.
Really, I accept that I don't know:
01  What exactly this curved space time consists of
02  In what way or how it is paving way for gravity

I am trying very hard to get the information, since it is the base to say, how gravity is keeping the planets in particular place and to maintain perfect line and length.

When you are saying that I don't, you must be having knowledge.  Please, it is my humble request as well, tell me what this curved space time consists, when it is responsible for gravity how it paves way for gravity.

You can make me to shut with perfect explanation as well.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 17/05/2021 06:12:53
In my view, Newton’s inverse square law is not correct.
An inverse square law is the only way you can get a stable orbit.
So it's pretty clear that any deviations from it must be tiny.

As of now, inverse square law is the only way out for us.  Einstein's GR is incomplete, he could not say what is curved space time is, what it consists of, how it comes into existence, and how it is responsible for gravity.  For that  there is no perfect answer for "what exactly is gravity".

What I am saying is, as there is no choice we have to go for inverse square law.

General relativity has passed every test that has been devised for it.  It incorporates the inverse square law. Are you clairvoyant? You seem to be in touch with the ghost of Einstein. Say hi from me and tell him he did a fantastic job.
It appears, you are doing very good job.  Keep it up.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 17/05/2021 06:40:12
I am trying very hard to get the information, since it is the base to say, how gravity is keeping the planets in particular place and to maintain perfect line and length.

Technically, it isn't. Orbits change over time.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 17/05/2021 17:24:13
Well, it is true that in any region distant from massive cosmic objects such as stars, space-time is uncurved.  Ok, If one were to probe spacetime in that region by sending out a ray of light or a test body, both the ray and the body would travel in perfectly straight lines.

However, all masses curves or distorts space time around them and light ray will follow geodesics

Ok, let us study it with simple thought experiment of Einstein.
01   Let us take an elevator, having holes in opposite direction.
02   If you send a ray of light through one hole it will move out through the other hole.

Here there are several important points:
01   The elevator is in the strong gravity field and there is gravity inside elevator also.
02    Mr. X’s weight, who is inside the elevator continues to be 75 Kgs only.
03   When the ray of light is sent through one hole it moves out through the other hole.
04   It tells us, in normal course, irrespective of gravity, light travels in straight line.
05   Ok, suppose let us imagine that all the planets are in at rest or stationary, even if space time is curved near to the masses, light never bends.  There is no gravitational lensing at all.
06   Further we can also deduct that, space time where light is travelling, may be curved or uncurved, doesn’t matter, it moves in straight line.
07   It clearly tells us that, space time which we are taking as empty, may not be empty as well.
08   At present we are taking, if we place any mass, anywhere, in response it will curve the space time around it.
09   For me it is a big doubt, unless there is something, how a mass curves or distort space time.
10   Mass only alters or curves existing gravity field and mass has no capacity to create any gravity field.
11   If mass has the capacity to curve or create gravity by itself without outside support, planets need not be in a solar system.

However things will change, If the elevator accelerates forward.
01   Though the source of light is relative to elevator, light start bending or accelerating in opposite direction.
02   Here, it is true that light ray is moving in straight line as long as the elevator is at rest or stationary on the ground.  We should not forget that this is happening in a strong gravity.
03   If the elevator accelerates forward, the light ray accelerates downwards. Here also we can draw several important conclusions.
a)   When the elevator accelerates forward, what makes light to bend.
b)   Here, at present we are taking it as Gravity bending light.
c)   If we take it for gravity, it gives us best clue that as the elevator accelerates forward,
gravity field is moving downwards.
d)   Gravity field while moving downwards, density increases and gives additional weight.
e)   What else proof is needed to prove that gravity is a field present on Earth
f)   What else proof is needed to prove that it is the density of the gravity increasing at the
bottom.
g)   What else proof is needed to prove that this field is having important quality of moving
from high to low, as it adjusts.
04   So, in normal course, if gravity is at rest or stationary, there is no bending of light at all.
05   As the elevator moves forward, gravity field is moving in opposite direction.  For this I had already given lengthy explanation, we are lifting frame only and in turn frame drags the contents including gravity.
06   So, light bending is an indication that gravity field is not at rest or stationary and is moving.

So, it is clear that light ray moves in straight line whether space time is curved or uncurved.  Ok, suppose if the Sun is at rest or stationary, curved space time  also will be at rest or stationary only.  Light coming from the other stars will not follow geodesics and will move out in straight line.

From the elevator example it is clear that unless there is a change, up, down, light is not taking any curves or bending.  Even in strong gravity field, if there is no change or movement light ray moves in straight line.

Well, it is true that Sun is not at rest or stationary.  Sun is moving against its axis.  If Sun is moving, curved space time cannot be at rest or stationary, it is also moving.  Light ray coming from far reaching stars, if Sun is at rest, will not follow any geodesics, moves out in straight line.  Since curved space is moving, light ray is bent.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Zer0 on 18/05/2021 19:23:04
@pasala

Hi Again!
🙋

I'm a Layman Science Enthusiast...
The Layest man ever, if that's even a word.
(I guess Not)

Okay.
Let's try n have a healthy discussion...here we go!
👍

Seems like You have a Deeper Understanding of Gravity, or maybe you are trying Real hard to figure out what it is...or perhaps neither.
🤔

Anyways, my question is short & simple...
How would You describe Your Gravity Hypothesis to a small kid?
(Dare i say Supposition)
😉

I Simply Completely Fail to Understand what exactly is it that you are trying so soo hard to explain in here...
I just Wish to put in a lil extra effort on my part to try & understand it.
👍

Could you, or rather would you help me with it?
😊

P.S. - Even thou Change is the Only Constant in the Universe, Some Things just never Change...Eveh!
🤭
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 19/05/2021 16:19:15
Mr ZerO,
As said by you, even myself at the end, felt that I must have dealt issues / theories one after one in detail.

Ok, let us discuss about Einstein thought experiment which is base for all our discussion.
01   Let us take an Elevator, having holes on opposite sides.
02    Now, if you send a light ray from one hole, it will move out through the other one.

If the elevator accelerates forward, things will be different:
01   Here, source of light is relative to the elevator.
02   Though source of light is relative, light accelerates downwards according to the acceleration of elevator.

Here there are several important things to be discussed.  As long as the elevator is at rest on the ground, light ray moves out through the other hole.  When the elevator accelerates, what makes the light to bend and to accelerate downwards.   Here, we should not forget that we are doing all these things in a strong gravity field.  As long as the elevator is at rest on the ground, even in strong gravity field, light ray is moving straight.

In fact, for this bending of light we are taking Gravity as reason.  So, to bend the light ray, inside the elevator, there must be change in the gravity field.  Ok in case if there is no change in gravity field what is bending light?.

This is another important point, I had already discussed at length.  When we lift the elevator, literally, we are lifting the frame only.  In turn, frame drags the contents there in including gravity field.  In turn gravity field density at the bottom start increasing, pushing you backward.

This is the reason, if we accelerate the car forward, engine drags the frame and in turn frame drags the contents, including gravity field and in turn density of gravity field at the end increases giving you additional weight, pushing you backward.

01   Ok, in case of elevator, when it accelerates forward, what is bending light downwards.
02   Please remember that this is Einstein’s thought experiment only.  At present we are of the
opinion that gravity is bending light.
03   If it is Gravity, we are already in strong gravity.
04   Unless there is change in the Gravity field there is no scope for bending of light.
05   Finally, one must accept that it is the Gravity field moving downwards and bending light.
06    One must accept that Gravity is a field present on the Earth.
07   When the elevator accelerates, density of gravity field increasing at the bottom shows that,
its density itself is the gravity.
08   It also shows one of the important quality of moving from high to low.
09   From the space ship example, it is surprise to see, even in small area such as cabin gravity
field can be packed and moved, Einstein equivalence clearly tells us that this gravity in
small area is giving same results.

Unless there is a change in the position of elevator, up, down, left or right no effect can be noticed.  It is also scientifically proved that when the elevator accelerates forward something is changing.

Please remember that this is Einstein’s thought experiment only.  When we accept that Gravity is bending light, inside the elevator, one  must also accept that Gravity is moving downward.

Next we will discuss about gravitational lensing of light.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: CrazyScientist on 19/05/2021 21:41:15
Here there are several important things to be discussed.  As long as the elevator is at rest on the ground, light ray moves out through the other hole.  When the elevator accelerates, what makes the light to bend and to accelerate downwards.   Here, we should not forget that we are doing all these things in a strong gravity field.  As long as the elevator is at rest on the ground, even in strong gravity field, light ray is moving straight.

The elevator analogy makes more sense, if you exclude any external gravitational field - let's focus only on the acceleration of elevator.

Quote
In fact, for this bending of light we are taking Gravity as reason.  So, to bend the light ray, inside the elevator, there must be change in the gravity field.  Ok in case if there is no change in gravity field what is bending light?.

Let's modify slightly the scenario and place the source of light and a sesnor in a stationary frame (e.g. on the 1st floor), while removing the side walls in that elevator - so that the light will pass through the elevator, which accelerates upwards and reach the stationary sensor on the opposite side:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QM255HDd/elevator.jpg)

In the stationary frame of source/sensor light is moving in a stright line from the source towards the sensor and it's the elevator which accelerates upwards. But in the frame of elevator it's the light source and the sensor which accelerate downwards.

Now if the light is being emitted by the source, while it is placed in the middle of elevator, in the frame of that elevator light will reach the sensor, when it is placed much lower, than in the moment of light emission - and because the relative velocity of both frames is constantly growing due to the accelerating elevator, path of light will be curved downwards in the frame of elvator, while being stright in the frame of source/sensor:

(https://i.postimg.cc/63CH4kDF/elevator1.jpg)

Quote
Ok, in case of elevator, when it accelerates forward, what is bending light downwards.

It's bending in the frame of accelerating elevator due to growing relative velocity of the source/sensor frame
Title: aRe: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: CrazyScientist on 19/05/2021 22:23:28
I know, that it doesn't have too much with the gravity, but since we're talking about a scenario with the elevator, I wonder what would happen if we would modify it and place the sensor inside the moving elevator, while keeping the source of light in stationary frame. Let's say, that light is being emitted by the stationary source in the moment, when it is at the same level, as the sensor placed inside the elevator moving upwards - will the light reach that sensor or not? If it won't reach it, then the motion of elevator will become absolute/definitive, what will violate the relative nature of relative motion. If it will reach the sensor, then path of light will become curved upwards in the frame of stationary source. Which option is the valid one?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 20/05/2021 16:38:07
I know, that it doesn't have too much with the gravity, but since we're talking about a scenario with the elevator, I wonder what would happen if we would modify it and place the sensor inside the moving elevator, while keeping the source of light in stationary frame. Let's say, that light is being emitted by the stationary source in the moment, when it is at the same level, as the sensor placed inside the elevator moving upwards - will the light reach that sensor or not? If it won't reach it, then the motion of elevator will become absolute/definitive, what will violate the relative nature of relative motion. If it will reach the sensor, then path of light will become curved upwards in the frame of stationary source. Which option is the valid one?
Actually, I had taken Einstein's thought experiment and it is not mine.  Ok, when the elevator accelerates forward, basic question is what makes the light ray to accelerate downwards.  Einstein indirectly conveyed that gravity is bending light.  In my view, since it is giving additional weight or pushing you back, it is gravity only.   By this we can draw a conclusion that Gravity is a field present on Earth.

Ok, you are talking different thing.  You are saying that, light source is relative to elevator and you also proposes to place a sensor inside the elevator and also says that the sensor is moving up.  As the elevator accelerates forward, by doing so, you want to measure the relativity.  It is a different idea.

Actually, I don't want to go deep into your point, since main subject, what exactly is gravity will be diverted.

Really I am working very hard, going by Einstein thought experiments only, to prove or say what exactly is gravity.  If any body having idea on this may share their ideas.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 20/05/2021 16:44:00
Ok, when the elevator accelerates forward, basic question is what makes the light ray to accelerate downwards.

The fact that you are accelerating upwards is what makes the light ray look like it is accelerating downwards. It really is just that simple.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 20/05/2021 17:06:15
Ok, when the elevator accelerates forward, basic question is what makes the light ray to accelerate downwards.

The fact that you are accelerating upwards is what makes the light ray look like it is accelerating downwards. It really is just that simple.
Based on these thought experiments, Einstein deducted that Gravity bends light.  Whether it  is simple or big, as per Einstein there is bending of light.

What I am saying, if it is gravity, Einstein did not take up this one, to bend light it must move down, isn't it?.  When the elevator accelerates forward, frame of the elevator, literally, lifts the gravity field and gravity concentration at the bottom increases.

So, Finally we can draw a conclusion that Gravity is a field present on Earth.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 20/05/2021 18:59:37
When the elevator accelerates forward, frame of the elevator, literally, lifts the gravity field and gravity concentration at the bottom increases.

So, Finally we can draw a conclusion that Gravity is a field present on Earth.
No, the gravity field is not lifted nor does the gravity concentration increase, you can demonstrate that in a rocket where the field strength decreases with height.
What you are describing here does not show that a gravity field exists on earth.

Let's modify slightly the scenario and place the source of light and a sesnor in a stationary frame (e.g. on the 1st floor), while removing the side walls in that elevator - so that the light will pass through the elevator, which accelerates upwards and reach the stationary sensor on the opposite side:
The whole point of Galileo’s ship and Einstein’s elevator experiments is that they are closed systems without information from outside. It doesn’t matter whether the source or sensor are outside, you are using a different reference frame to the elevator.
The elevator needs to be either in a gravitational field and not moving or in no gravitational field and accelerating; in both cases the light beam will bend. Unfortunately, @pasala is mixing the 2 cases and causing himself confusion.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 20/05/2021 20:39:21
When the elevator accelerates forward, frame of the elevator, literally, lifts the gravity field and gravity concentration at the bottom increases.

There is no gravity in the elevator (at least not beyond the extraordinarily weak field produced by the elevator's mass). You are misunderstanding the equivalence principle.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Zer0 on 20/05/2021 21:58:43
@pasala

🙏

A few points i wish to clarify with you...

1) Gravity is a force field present on Earth.
Only on Earth?
Moon as well Right?
All Mass has a Gravity field?
(I'm saying Yes to all Above)
🌚

2) Acceleration can mimic or say give identical effects as a Gravity field.
Correct?
(Yes)
⚖️

3) We can Pack gravity inside a Rocket & take it elsewhere...
Hmm?
(Noo)
How could we fold & unfold Gravity?
🚀

4) An Elevator needs to be Accelerating at 9.8 m/s/s.
That is a Tremendous rate of change of Velocity, Right?
(Ofcourse)
🦽
(& I'm also Wondering at this point, just what was with Einstein & Elevators man! )
🤔

5) For the sake of a different flavour, let's Imagine an Apple falling of a tree.

5(a) Now...
Gravity of Earth would attract Apple towards itself.
(Yes)
🌏
Gravity of Apple would attract Earth towards itself.
(Yes)
🍏

5(b) How about Visualising this scenario in terms of Geodesics & SpaceTime.
🌈

Apple breaks/snaps away from the tree & stays Stationary.
(Yes)
⏸️

It follows Geodesic path of the fabric of Space which is Curved.
(Yes)
💃

Einstein said
" SpaceTime is Curved "...So...
Apple isn't just moving thru Curved Space but also thru Time.
Since the moment the Apple snapped off of the Tree...Time is Ticking...hence it is Stationary in position, still the Position itself is what's moving & evolving & bringing it closer to the surface of the Earth.
(Yes!)

The Concept/Supposition that a Gravitational Field could be Dense or Light seems rather weird.
🤔
Are there any observable regions in the Universe where We could visually see this happening?
(No)
😑
Perhaps not until You bring in Dark Matter into the conversation.
(Yes)
👻

P.S. - Dark Matter is Not Dark, rather Transparent.
& It Ain't Matter!
✌️
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 21/05/2021 16:30:59
When the elevator accelerates forward, frame of the elevator, literally, lifts the gravity field and gravity concentration at the bottom increases.

There is no gravity in the elevator (at least not beyond the extraordinarily weak field produced by the elevator's mass). You are misunderstanding the equivalence principle.
You are continuously saying that there is no gravity or simple inside the elevator.  Please remember it is not mine idea, but Einstein thought experiment only.  I think you are contradicting Einstein thought experiment.

As said by Einstein, if gravity is bending light, how and where it is coming.  In normal course  when the elevator is at rest on the ground there is strong gravity.  But it is not bending light.  It  is only after acceleration, please remember it is also as per Einstein, that gravity is bending light.

It is surprise to see, how Einstein deducted that Gravity is bending light.  There is Gravity, when the elevator is at rest on the ground and also when it accelerates, but how it bends light, only when the elevator accelerates. As per Einstein, Gravity is bending light, if it is so, what changes are taking place in gravity when the elevator accelerates.

When the elevator accelerates forward, I am proposing that there are changes in the gravity field within elevator and it is bending light and  it is  just filling gap of Einstein thought experiment.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 21/05/2021 16:49:41
You are continuously saying that there is no gravity or simple inside the elevator.  Please remember it is not mine idea, but Einstein thought experiment only.  I think you are contradicting Einstein thought experiment.

No, Einstein did not say that there is gravity inside of an accelerating elevator. What he said is that you can't tell whether the force you feel inside of the elevator is due to it accelerating upwards or from gravity (assuming you have no way to make observations outside of the elevator). He did not say that these two things are identical. Again, you are misunderstanding the equivalence principle.

but how it bends light, only when the elevator accelerates.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 21/05/2021 17:18:24
When the elevator accelerates forward, frame of the elevator, literally, lifts the gravity field and gravity concentration at the bottom increases.

So, Finally we can draw a conclusion that Gravity is a field present on Earth.
No, the gravity field is not lifted nor does the gravity concentration increase, you can demonstrate that in a rocket where the field strength decreases with height.
What you are describing here does not show that a gravity field exists on earth.

Let's modify slightly the scenario and place the source of light and a sesnor in a stationary frame (e.g. on the 1st floor), while removing the side walls in that elevator - so that the light will pass through the elevator, which accelerates upwards and reach the stationary sensor on the opposite side:
The whole point of Galileo’s ship and Einstein’s elevator experiments is that they are closed systems without information from outside. It doesn’t matter whether the source or sensor are outside, you are using a different reference frame to the elevator.
The elevator needs to be either in a gravitational field and not moving or in no gravitational field and accelerating; in both cases the light beam will bend. Unfortunately, @pasala is mixing the 2 cases and causing himself confusion.
Unfortunately, it is yourself confusing members.
You are saying, Light beam will bend:
"The elevator needs to be either in a gravitational field and not moving or in no gravitational field and accelerating; in both cases the light beam will bend".

You are proposing that in a gravitational field, if the elevator is at rest then only light beam will bend.  If that is true, what is there need for Einstein thought experiments.  Einstein thought experiments propose that if the elevator attains acceleration, equal to acceleration light beam will bend, in case, if it attains velocity, equal to  velocity light beam will bend in opposite direction.

Further you have also proposed that in no gravitational field, acceleration bends light.  I don't think there is any such proposal by Einstein.  I think you are equating acceleration to gravity.  Ok, if that is true, if a space ship accelerates from Moon or from a space station, do acceleration equates gravity.

Well, Galileo's equivalence is different and it is in between, closed room of a ship to Earth.  Please go through it.  No where, much focus is laid on this equivalence.  What Galileo says, in a closed room of a ship, if the sailing is smooth, he could not differentiate whether he is in a ship sailing or on Earth.  It clearly tells us that Earth is closed.

This is the core idea behind relativity, and is the same reason why we don’t feel our planet’s movement around the sun, or our solar system’s movement through the galaxy.

Yet we don't accept that Earth is a closed one.  If we say that doors and windows are not appearing, it is our incapacity and inefficiency to identify it.

Einstein equivalence is simply a comparison, saying that there is also equivalence.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 21/05/2021 17:20:47
You are continuously saying that there is no gravity or simple inside the elevator.  Please remember it is not mine idea, but Einstein thought experiment only.  I think you are contradicting Einstein thought experiment.

No, Einstein did not say that there is gravity inside of an accelerating elevator. What he said is that you can't tell whether the force you feel inside of the elevator is due to it accelerating upwards or from gravity (assuming you have no way to make observations outside of the elevator). He did not say that these two things are identical. Again, you are misunderstanding the equivalence principle.

but how it bends light, only when the elevator accelerates.

Ok, then how Einstein deducted that Gravity bends light.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 21/05/2021 20:37:20
Ok, then how Einstein deducted that Gravity bends light.

It follows from the equivalence principle that light's behavior in a gravitational field is indistinguishable from light's behavior from the point of view of an observer inside of an accelerating elevator. That does not mean that gravity and acceleration are literally the same thing, only that they have the same effects in certain scenarios.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: CrazyScientist on 21/05/2021 20:52:39
The whole point of Galileo’s ship and Einstein’s elevator experiments is that they are closed systems without information from outside. It doesn’t matter whether the source or sensor are outside, you are using a different reference frame to the elevator.
The elevator needs to be either in a gravitational field and not moving or in no gravitational field and accelerating; in both cases the light beam will bend. Unfortunately, @pasala is mixing the 2 cases and causing himself confusion.

Thanks! That's what I wanted to hear. I admit, that I might also cause some confusion with my sccenario, as it has more to do with SRT than GRT. What I had in mind is the idea that motion path of light will curve in the stationary frame of light source just due to placing the sensor inside a moving frame (elevator), while curving in the frame of moving elevator only due to placing the sensor in the same frame as the light source. It has more to do with my model of constant c in relative motion than with the subject discussed in this thread, so sorry for causing confusion...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 22/05/2021 05:06:52
Thanks! That's what I wanted to hear. I admit, that I might also cause some confusion with my sccenario, as it has more to do with SRT than GRT. What I had in mind is the idea that motion path of light will curve in the stationary frame of light source just due to placing the sensor inside a moving frame (elevator), while curving in the frame of moving elevator only due to placing the sensor in the same frame as the light source. It has more to do with my model of constant c in relative motion than with the subject discussed in this thread, so sorry for causing confusion...
I’d prefer not to confuse op further by going through this, but when I’ve finished you will see what an outside observer will see in both situations.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 22/05/2021 05:31:29
You are proposing that in a gravitational field, if the elevator is at rest then only light beam will bend.  If that is true, what is there need for Einstein thought experiments.

The need for the thought experiment is to show that acceleration and gravity are equivalent. This can be shown by comparing the case above with an elevator in no gravitational field, but accelerating. The light beam bends in both cases, they are equivalent.

Einstein thought experiments propose that if the elevator attains acceleration, equal to acceleration light beam will bend,
i think you missed out the words due to gravity so it should read

“if the elevator attains acceleration, equal to acceleration due to gravity light beam will bend”.
In that case, yes this is correct.

in case, if it attains velocity, equal to  velocity light beam will bend in opposite direction.
not so, don’t know where you got that from. Show your source. It has nothing to do with velocity, just acceleration.

Further you have also proposed that in no gravitational field, acceleration bends light.  I don't think there is any such proposal by Einstein.
Yes, that is the proposal from Einstein.

I think you are equating acceleration to gravity.
YES, YES, YES. but not equating as in they are the same thing, but that the effects of both are equivalent.

Ok, if that is true, if a space ship accelerates from Moon or from a space station, do acceleration equates gravity.
If you are in a spaceship travelling at constant velocity you will feel weightless. If your pilot then accelerates at 9.8m/s2 then you will feel a force pushing you against the back of your seat equivalent to the force of gravity. That force will be equivalent to your weight on earth. Yes, the acceleration is equivalent to gravity.

Forget light for a moment and consider a tennis ball.
Spaceman in no gravitational field (or freefall) feels weightless. If they push a tennis ball away from them it will go in a straight line to the opposite wall (as would light).
Now the spaceship starts to accelerate, the ‘bottom’ wall of the ship moves up and pushes against the feet of spaceman so he has to use leg muscles to stand; if he now pushes the tennis ball away it will fall towards his feet, exactly the same as if he were standing on earth in a gravitational field. Acceleration and gravity are equivalent.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: CrazyScientist on 22/05/2021 17:04:04
Acceleration and gravity are equivalent.
There are some differences: acceleration of a frame doesn't curve the space time in that frame - however it curves the worldline of an accelerating object. But it's kinda complicated subject...
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/197546/does-acceleration-warp-space
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 22/05/2021 17:48:55
Acceleration and gravity are equivalent.
There are some differences: acceleration of a frame doesn't curve the space time in that frame - however it curves the worldline of an accelerating object. But it's kinda complicated subject...
It’s not really complicated, but it is why the effects are equivalent rather than acceleration and gravity being equal.
Worth noting that Einstein was assuming a uniform gravitational field so tidal forces are not an issue. Point source fields are only locally uniform at a fair distance from eg centre of planet, so an elevator on surface of earth is ok.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Janus on 22/05/2021 18:35:19
I know, that it doesn't have too much with the gravity, but since we're talking about a scenario with the elevator, I wonder what would happen if we would modify it and place the sensor inside the moving elevator, while keeping the source of light in stationary frame. Let's say, that light is being emitted by the stationary source in the moment, when it is at the same level, as the sensor placed inside the elevator moving upwards - will the light reach that sensor or not? If it won't reach it, then the motion of elevator will become absolute/definitive, what will violate the relative nature of relative motion. If it will reach the sensor, then path of light will become curved upwards in the frame of stationary source. Which option is the valid one?
Let's, for the moment, exclude the acceleration of the Elevator, and just imagine the path of the light if the Elevator and external light source have a relative motion with respect to each other. Light entering the hole from the source will not hit the sensor opposite the hole.  However, you cannot conclude from this that there is absolute motion on the part of the Elevator.  This is due the the aberration of light, which is caused by the Relative motion between source and Elevator.  It happens exactly the same whether you consider the Elevator moving and the source stationary or the Elevator stationary and the Source moving.  Thus it can only tell you that they are moving relative to each other, and not which one is "really" moving.
If you add the acceleration of the Elevator back in, it's effect will be compounded on top of the aberration. The light beam's path will still curve( as measured from the Elevator), but the angle at which it initially enters the hole will depend of the relative velocity difference between the Source ( at the moment of emission) and the Elevator( at the moment of entering the hole.)
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: CrazyScientist on 22/05/2021 19:31:45
I know, that it doesn't have too much with the gravity, but since we're talking about a scenario with the elevator, I wonder what would happen if we would modify it and place the sensor inside the moving elevator, while keeping the source of light in stationary frame. Let's say, that light is being emitted by the stationary source in the moment, when it is at the same level, as the sensor placed inside the elevator moving upwards - will the light reach that sensor or not? If it won't reach it, then the motion of elevator will become absolute/definitive, what will violate the relative nature of relative motion. If it will reach the sensor, then path of light will become curved upwards in the frame of stationary source. Which option is the valid one?
Let's, for the moment, exclude the acceleration of the Elevator, and just imagine the path of the light if the Elevator and external light source have a relative motion with respect to each other. Light entering the hole from the source will not hit the sensor opposite the hole.  However, you cannot conclude from this that there is absolute motion on the part of the Elevator.  This is due the the aberration of light, which is caused by the Relative motion between source and Elevator.  It happens exactly the same whether you consider the Elevator moving and the source stationary or the Elevator stationary and the Source moving.  Thus it can only tell you that they are moving relative to each other, and not which one is "really" moving.
If you add the acceleration of the Elevator back in, it's effect will be compounded on top of the aberration. The light beam's path will still curve( as measured from the Elevator), but the angle at which it initially enters the hole will depend of the relative velocity difference between the Source ( at the moment of emission) and the Elevator( at the moment of entering the hole.)

Thanks! I like that you found the connection to aberration of light - that's exactly what I had in mind :) However in the scenario which I proposed, there are no holes in the side walls of the elevator. In the original form of my scenario there are no side walls at all - light is passing through the accelerating elevator and reaches a stationary sensor on the opposite side, what results in a curved path of light in the frame of that elevator:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QM255HDd/elevator.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/63CH4kDF/elevator1.jpg)

Now let's put back one side wall in the elevator (the one which is placed further from the source) and place the sensor in the middle of that wall. If we keep in mind the fact that the path of light emitted by a moving source is not influenced by the motion of it's source in the frame of a stationary observer, then light emitted in the moment when the source and the sensor are placed on the same level, will reach that sensor despite the relative motion of both frames - just like on the image below (showing the frame of elevator):

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5CHkRnS/elevator2.jpg)

However this would mean that path of light becomes curved upwards in the frame of stationary source.

I have also an issue with the animation from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberration_(astronomy)

According to it light behaves just like any other physical object (e.g a bullet) and the perpendicular motion of the light source is being added to the vector of light propagation - so motion of the light beam is a sum of 2 perpendicular vectors. However as I said earlier motion of the light source shouldn't affect the motion path of light in stationary frame.

It's an interesting subject, but I'm not sure if this is the right thread to discuss it. I think that my own thread would be a better place - sadly it was closed by Halc some time ago...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: charles1948 on 22/05/2021 20:31:48
All the above posts about "What is Gravity", make me wonder whether a similar question could be asked, such as:

What is the "Strong Nuclear Force".

This "force", as far as I understand it, makes protons in the nucleus of an atom gather together.  Despite the protons' mutual positive charges.  Which ought electrically to repel them from each other, and make them fly apart.

This "Strong " force seems to be accepted as a "Fundamental Force of Nature".  Without needing an explanation.

If this is so, can't the "Gravitational"  force , which makes atoms gather together, also be accepted as a "Fundamental Force of Nature".   Without needing an explanation?

Why can't we  treat "Gravity" like the "Strong Force" -  ie, as just the way things are in the Universe?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: CrazyScientist on 22/05/2021 21:56:26
All the above posts about "What is Gravity", make me wonder whether a similar question could be asked, such as:

What is the "Strong Nuclear Force".

This "force", as far as I understand it, makes protons in the nucleus of an atom gather together.  Despite the protons' mutual positive charges.  Which ought electrically to repel them from each other, and make them fly apart.

This "Strong " force seems to be accepted as a "Fundamental Force of Nature".  Without needing an explanation.

If this is so, can't the "Gravitational"  force , which makes atoms gather together, also be accepted as a "Fundamental Force of Nature".   Without needing an explanation?

Why can't we  treat "Gravity" like the "Strong Force" -  ie, as just the way things are in the Universe?
I think that the main purpose of science is to understand the mechanics of reality in which we exist. It's not that strong force doesn't need to be explained - it's just the science, which is unable to explain it at this time, so there's no other choice than to accept it's existance without understanding it's nature.

BTW atoms in molecules stick together due to electrostatic force rather than graviational one...
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Janus on 23/05/2021 00:21:11

I have also an issue with the animation from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberration_(astronomy)

According to it light behaves just like any other physical object (e.g a bullet) and the perpendicular motion of the light source is being added to the vector of light propagation - so motion of the light beam is a sum of 2 perpendicular vectors. However as I said earlier motion of the light source shouldn't affect the motion path of light in stationary frame.

I
I'm going to add a couple of animations of my own to try and clarify what is going on here:
First from the source frame:
[ Invalid Attachment ]
The pulse is emitted downward and the observer moves to the right to intercept it. The red line shows the pulse's relationship to the source during its trip.
Now from the observer frame:
[ Invalid Attachment ]
Note that in order for things to be physically consistent with the source frame, the pulse must at all times stay on the red line which extends downward from the source just like it did in the Source frame. In other words, the pulse must always be directly below the source.
This, means, the relative to the observer, it follows the Green line.  It isn't about the source "adding" any velocity to the pulse, it is about keeping the two frames physically consistent.*

*One caveat to this: in these animations I did not try to account for the fact that the light pulse must travel at c as measured from either frame.  In reality, the pulse takes longer to make the trip as measured in the observer frame, which means the source travels a greater distance relative to the observer during the trip, and would have to be a bit further away from the observer when the Pulse leaves, than what the Source frame would measure.  This, in turn has an effect on the exact angle of the Green line measured by the Source frame.

.

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: CrazyScientist on 23/05/2021 00:54:18

I have also an issue with the animation from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberration_(astronomy)

According to it light behaves just like any other physical object (e.g a bullet) and the perpendicular motion of the light source is being added to the vector of light propagation - so motion of the light beam is a sum of 2 perpendicular vectors. However as I said earlier motion of the light source shouldn't affect the motion path of light in stationary frame.

I
I'm going to add a couple of animations of my own to try and clarify what is going on here:
First from the source frame:

abrrtn1.gif (61.86 kB . 576x576 - viewed 4740 times)
The pulse is emitted downward and the observer moves to the right to intercept it. The red line shows the pulse's relationship to the source during its trip.
Now from the observer frame:

abrrtn2.gif (109.42 kB . 576x576 - viewed 4739 times)
Note that in order for things to be physically consistent with the source frame, the pulse must at all times stay on the red line which extends downward from the source just like it did in the Source frame. In other words, the pulse must always be directly below the source.
This, means, the relative to the observer, it follows the Green line.  It isn't about the source "adding" any velocity to the pulse, it is about keeping the two frames physically consistent.*

*One caveat to this: in these animations I did not try to account for the fact that the light pulse must travel at c as measured from either frame.  In reality, the pulse takes longer to make the trip as measured in the observer frame, which means the source travels a greater distance relative to the observer during the trip, and would have to be a bit further away from the observer when the Pulse leaves, than what the Source frame would measure.  This, in turn has an effect on the exact angle of the Green line measured by the Source frame.

Thanks for our time and efforts! However all what you said only proves my point - this is exctly the same result which we'd get as a sum of perpendicular vectors:

In shortcut, light behaves here like a bullet shot from a moving train perpendicularly to the motion of that train. But in the difference to such a bullet, motion path of light in the rest frame of a stationary bystander shouldn't be affected by the relative motion of it's source.

Let's compare this scenario to waves created by a ship moving in a pond. Scenario presented on your animations shows a situation, where a wave is propagating perpendicuralry to the motion of a boat in a pond, which moves together with the boat in relation to a stationary observer - it propagates perpendicularly in the frame of boat and diagonally in the frame of stationary observer. However wave propagating perpendicuralry to a moving boat in a stationary pond will behave differently - it will propagate perpendicularly to the moving boat in the frame of stationary bystander and diagonally in the frame of the boat.

If the motion of light is not affected by the motion of it's source in the frame of a stationary observer, then it's the second option (with stationary pond), which should be applied to this scenario.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 23/05/2021 15:08:57
Forget light for a moment and consider a tennis ball.
Spaceman in no gravitational field (or freefall) feels weightless. If they push a tennis ball away from them it will go in a straight line to the opposite wall (as would light).
Now the spaceship starts to accelerate, the ‘bottom’ wall of the ship moves up and pushes against the feet of spaceman so he has to use leg muscles to stand; if he now pushes the tennis ball away it will fall towards his feet, exactly the same as if he were standing on earth in a gravitational field. Acceleration and gravity are equivalent.
Here, Einstein's idea's are moving around Newton's inverse square law.  The space ship is far away from the mass, deep in space, still there is gravity, how?.  Finally, he came to know a conclusion that it may be due to acceleration.  This is one  of the incorrect ideas of Einstein.

Now a days, science developed a lot.  We are sending our space ships to Moon and also coming back to Earth.  For that our space ships are going to ISS regularly.  Initially, at the time of departure from Earth, things inside the cabin of the space ship behaves differently, and it is not due to acceleration 9.81 m/s.  In case, if the space ship accelerates less then 9.81 m/s, in such case, there is a chance for the space time of the cabin to inter act with the outside space time and thus gravity coming down.  If the space ship accelerates more than 9.81 m/s gravity field inside the space ship remains intact.

Now, let us assume that space ship started from the ISS, inside the cabin, if you push the tennis ball it will not fall to the the ground but move straight.  Cabin of the spaceship is locked in a non-gravity, doesn't mean that there is no gravity but it is acting differently or weak gravity.  The crew inside the cabin need not use muscle power to stand.

In my view, Gravity is a field present on Earth. A part of this field is packed in the cabin.  However it is surprise to see, this field in a small area such as cabin giving same results.  Gravity never increases due to acceleration and there are no instances or proof as such.

Ok, if the space ship accelerates from ISS and if there is gravity due to acceleration, I am sure that I will accept that mine hypothesis is wrong.  What is there.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 23/05/2021 15:10:56
The space ship is far away from the mass, deep in space, still there is gravity, how?

There isn't, as we've already told you.

Gravity never increases due to acceleration and there are no instances or proof as such.

When did anyone say that it did?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 23/05/2021 15:22:51
All the above posts about "What is Gravity", make me wonder whether a similar question could be asked, such as:

What is the "Strong Nuclear Force".

This "force", as far as I understand it, makes protons in the nucleus of an atom gather together.  Despite the protons' mutual positive charges.  Which ought electrically to repel them from each other, and make them fly apart.

This "Strong " force seems to be accepted as a "Fundamental Force of Nature".  Without needing an
explanation.

If this is so, can't the "Gravitational"  force , which makes atoms gather together, also be accepted as a "Fundamental Force of Nature".   Without needing an explanation?

Why can't we  treat "Gravity" like the "Strong Force" -  ie, as just the way things are in the Universe?

What you are saying is 100% correct.  There is no strong nuclear force or weak gravity force, there is only one force.  The truth will come out if science develops.  Let us wait for the same.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 23/05/2021 15:28:06
There is no strong nuclear force or weak gravity force, there is only one force.

How can that be the case when they behave so differently?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Janus on 23/05/2021 15:43:28

Let's compare this scenario to waves created by a ship moving in a pond. Scenario presented on your animations shows a situation, where a wave is propagating perpendicuralry to the motion of a boat in a pond, which moves together with the boat in relation to a stationary observer - it propagates perpendicularly in the frame of boat and diagonally in the frame of stationary observer. However wave propagating perpendicuralry to a moving boat in a stationary pond will behave differently - it will propagate perpendicularly to the moving boat in the frame of stationary bystander and diagonally in the frame of the boat.

If the motion of light is not affected by the motion of it's source in the frame of a stationary observer, then it's the second option (with stationary pond), which should be applied to this scenario.

With the pond, the waves travel relative to the water which acts like a medium.  There is no medium for light traveling in a vacuum.  So the waves made by a boat in the pond is not a valid analogy.
But neither does light behave exactly like a bullet fired from a gun according to Newtonian physics.  A bullet fired from a moving train has its speed increased relative to the ground as measured from the ground, light does not. While the observer would measure it traveling at an angle along a diagonal, they would also measure it as moving at c along the diagonal.
You can also examine the train scenario by reversing the roles. Put the source on the ground and have the observer on the "moving" train.   The train observer will measure the light as traveling at a diagonal relative to the train.  In other words, it doesn't matter which one, the source or observer, you assume is moving, the observer observes exactly the same thing, and he can't tell which one is "really" moving. The very idea of who is "really moving" and who is "really stationary" is meaningless.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: jeffreyH on 23/05/2021 16:51:29
What you are saying is 100% correct.  There is no strong nuclear force or weak gravity force, there is only one force.  The truth will come out if science develops.  Let us wait for the same.

I think you have a typo. You misspelled farce.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 23/05/2021 17:37:02
Ok, if the space ship accelerates from ISS and if there is gravity due to acceleration, I am sure that I will accept that mine hypothesis is wrong.  What is there.
You accept that in the ISS the astronauts are in freefall and feel no gravitational force, this will be the same in a spaceship alongside.
If that spaceship accelerates at 9.8m/s2 the astronauts will feel a force pushing them towards the back of the ship and that force will be the same as that due to gravity on earth. It is not gravity (which is due to the attraction between masses) but it is equivalent to gravity.
This has been proven by astronauts travelling to and from the ISS.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 23/05/2021 18:24:08
Please remember, these are not mine thought experiments, but Einstein’s only.

Now if you allow a light beam from outside, through a hole of elevator and observe where it struck, it all depends on the acceleration and velocity of the  elevator though source is relative.  In other words, unless there is a change in elevator, up, down nothing change can be deducted.
1.   If there were no relative motion or relative acceleration the light beam would appear to
travel straight across.
2.   If there were relative velocity the light beam would move in a straight line, but would be
displaced from going directly across.
3.   If there were relative acceleration, the light beam would follow a curved path, relative to
acceleration.

By these thought experiments that Einstein came to an idea that Gravity bends light.  But it is surprise to see:
01   As long as the elevator is at rest or stationary on the ground, light beam moves out from
one hole to other hole.
02   It is only after movement or change in the elevator, acceleration or velocity that light is
bending.
03   But, it is not clear how Einstein came to a conclusion that gravity bends light.

I would like to propose:
From the Einstein thought experiments itself it is clear that light is bending only after change or movement in the elevator.  It is true that as long as the elevator is on the ground, light beam moves straight, from one hole to the other hole.

As the elevator attains acceleration, what is causing or affecting light beam to bend.  This is not happening in normal course when it is on the ground.  Well, scientifically it is proved that something is changing when the elevator is accelerating.

It is also proved that even in closed elevator Mr. X’s weight continues to be 75 kgs only as that of on Earth.  It is also scientifically proved that some thing is changing in the closed elevator when it moves, which I propose it as “Gravity field”.   As the elevator accelerates forward, gravity field density is increasing at the bottom.  Gravity while moving downwards is bending the light.

Basically, Gravity is not bending light, it is the light beam flowing or moving according to the flow or movement of Gravity.  It is an indication of change in the Gravity field.

It is proved that starlight passing near a significant mass, such as the Sun, were bent by gravity.

If the Gravity field of Sun is at rest or stationary, starlight is not bent, moves out straight.  Since Gravity is moving, path of the light is changed.

Light bending is only an indication of movement or change of Gravity field.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 23/05/2021 18:37:58
There is no strong nuclear force or weak gravity force, there is only one force.

How can that be the case when they behave so differently?
What ever you are saying is truth.  But I am talking about future.  In my view, not only Gravity, several other theories will be re-written in future.  It may take lot of time, still I am fully confident that it will be proved that only "one force" exists.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 23/05/2021 18:51:26
As long as the elevator is at rest or stationary on the ground, light beam moves out from  one hole to other hole.
In the thought experiment the elevator is on the ground and so it is in a gravitational field. The light will not go out of the other hole, it will hit the wall below the hole.
You do not need a changing gravitational field to bend light.
In the experiment where the gravity of the sun bends starlight the sun’s gravitational field does not change.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 23/05/2021 19:12:04
Ok, if the space ship accelerates from ISS and if there is gravity due to acceleration, I am sure that I will accept that mine hypothesis is wrong.  What is there.
You accept that in the ISS the astronauts are in freefall and feel no gravitational force, this will be the same in a spaceship alongside.
If that spaceship accelerates at 9.8m/s2 the astronauts will feel a force pushing them towards the back of the ship and that force will be the same as that due to gravity on earth. It is not gravity (which is due to the attraction between masses) but it is equivalent to gravity.
This has been proven by astronauts travelling to and from the ISS.
Equivalent to gravity or something is not gravity.  As said by Newton, same medium is present on Earth as well as in space.  It is the density of this medium that matters.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 23/05/2021 19:27:16
As long as the elevator is at rest or stationary on the ground, light beam moves out from  one hole to other hole.
In the thought experiment the elevator is on the ground and so it is in a gravitational field. The light will not go out of the other hole, it will hit the wall below the hole.
You do not need a changing gravitational field to bend light.
In the experiment where the gravity of the sun bends starlight the sun’s gravitational field does not change.
Once again I reiterate that these are Einstein  thought experiments only.  It is known and proved fact that Sun is rotating on its axis.

Ok, when Sun is rotating:
"Mass tells space time how to curve and curved space time in turn tells mass how to move".

So, naturally curved space or Gravity field of Sun is also moving.  What  else proof is needed.  Light bending clearly indicates this.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Kryptid on 23/05/2021 22:59:15
What ever you are saying is truth.  But I am talking about future.  In my view, not only Gravity, several other theories will be re-written in future.  It may take lot of time, still I am fully confident that it will be proved that only "one force" exists.

If you are making reference to the unified field theory, that's nothing new. The thing is, that unified field is predicted to only exist at extremely high temperatures. Below that critical temperature, it splits into multiple, different forces.
As said by Newton, same medium is present on Earth as well as in space.  It is the density of this medium that matters.

What medium?
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 23/05/2021 23:15:52
It is known and proved fact that Sun is rotating on its axis.
Agreed

Ok, when Sun is rotating:
"Mass tells space time how to curve and curved space time in turn tells mass how to move".
That has nothing to do with the sun rotating

So, naturally curved space or Gravity field of Sun is also moving.  What  else proof is needed.  Light bending clearly indicates this.
You are misrepresenting the equivalence principle and Newton.
Provide proof that the gravitational field of the sun is moving and this is responsible for light bending, or we will lock this topic.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Zer0 on 24/05/2021 15:44:07
[ Invalid Attachment ]

P.S. - In terms of Favouritism, 1 & 2 are Equal...
But that Does Not mean they are absolutely the Same.
✌️
(Equivalence)
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 25/05/2021 14:56:08
It is known and proved fact that Sun is rotating on its axis.
Agreed

Ok, when Sun is rotating:
"Mass tells space time how to curve and curved space time in turn tells mass how to move".
That has nothing to do with the sun rotating

So, naturally curved space or Gravity field of Sun is also moving.  What  else proof is needed.  Light bending clearly indicates this.
You are misrepresenting the equivalence principle and Newton.
Provide proof that the gravitational field of the sun is moving and this is responsible for light bending, or we will lock this topic.

See, I had presented mine hypothesis.  For that present theories on Gravity, Inverse square law or curved space time, are also hypothesis only.  Of course, it is not good to compare with those theories, but I had presented mine idea.

For that:
01  It is true that as long as the elevator is on the ground, light beam moves out from one hole to the other in the opposite direction.
02  Unless there is a change, up or down, there is no change or something is changing and it is scientifically proved only.
03   If the elevator accelerates forward, light beam bends according to acceleration.

Further ;  "mass tells space time how to curve and curved space tells mass how to move".

Based on this information that:
It is only when the elevator accelerates forward that light beam is moving down.  It is true that,
basing on these information that Einstein predicted bending of light by Gravity.  So as per the above information I had predicted that Gravity is moving down within the elevator and bending light.  Further it is also clear that it is only when the elevator accelerates, clearly indicates that unless Gravity field changes or moves there is no change in the movement of light.

In fact, as per Einstein, mass of the Sun tells space time how to curve and in turn this curved space time once again tells mass how to move.

I had written above hypothesis based on Einstein thought experiments only.  Those information is collected from the books only.

Once again, I reiterate that I never misrepresented the facts.  It is hypothesis only based on other theories, practically, for me it is impossible to prove it.

Ok, if you are not satisfied, you can take any action as you like.

Thanking you,

Yours
Psreddy

Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 25/05/2021 14:59:29

false-equivalence-race-hounds.png (54.27 kB . 300x300 - viewed 1461 times)

P.S. - In terms of Favouritism, 1 & 2 are Equal...
But that Does Not mean they are absolutely the Same.
✌️
(Equivalence)

What ever it may, thanks for comparing with Great man.  I am after all a drop of water.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 25/05/2021 16:48:09

01  It is true that as long as the elevator is on the ground, light beam moves out from one hole to the other in the opposite direction.
Not so. If the elevator is on the ground it is in a gravitational field and light will bend.

02  Unless there is a change, up or down, there is no change or something is changing and it is scientifically proved only.
No, there doesn’t need to be a change, just a static gravitational field.

Based on this information that:
It is only when the elevator accelerates forward that light beam is moving down.  It is true that,
basing on these information that Einstein predicted bending of light by Gravity.  So as per the above information I had predicted that Gravity is moving down within the elevator and bending light.  Further it is also clear that it is only when the elevator accelerates, clearly indicates that unless Gravity field changes or moves there is no change in the movement of light.
This is a misrepresentation of Einstein’s thought experiment and of actual experiments.

I had written above hypothesis based on Einstein thought experiments only.  Those information is collected from the books only.

Once again, I reiterate that I never misrepresented the facts.
Yes you have misrepresented, because Einstein never said that in his thought experiments.
Show the pages from the books or this will be locked.
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 25/05/2021 18:09:38

01  It is true that as long as the elevator is on the ground, light beam moves out from one hole to the other in the opposite direction.
Not so. If the elevator is on the ground it is in a gravitational field and light will bend.

02  Unless there is a change, up or down, there is no change or something is changing and it is scientifically proved only.
No, there doesn’t need to be a change, just a static gravitational field.

Based on this information that:
It is only when the elevator accelerates forward that light beam is moving down.  It is true that,
basing on these information that Einstein predicted bending of light by Gravity.  So as per the above information I had predicted that Gravity is moving down within the elevator and bending light.  Further it is also clear that it is only when the elevator accelerates, clearly indicates that unless Gravity field changes or moves there is no change in the movement of light.
This is a misrepresentation of Einstein’s thought experiment and of actual experiments.

I had written above hypothesis based on Einstein thought experiments only.  Those information is collected from the books only.

Once again, I reiterate that I never misrepresented the facts.
Yes you have misrepresented, because Einstein never said that in his thought experiments.
Show the pages from the books or this will be locked.
Please go through Forbes, this is why Einstein knew that gravity must bend light:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/04/26/this-is-why-einstein-knew-that-gravity-must-bend-light/?sh=478b1e522ef6
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: pasala on 28/05/2021 18:01:39
In fact, as I was studying or gathering information about Gravity, it happened to go by the thinking of great Greek philosophers.

In their observation:
01   Movement of celestial bodies is not affected by Gravity.
02   Celestial bodies are following nondescending trajectories.
03   Aristotle also opined that these bodies are following natural motion unaffected by external
force.
04   Some of these philosophers held that a body moving at constant speed requires a
continuous force acting on it and that force must be applied by contact rather than
interaction at a distance.

This is the foundation for modern gravitational theory.  Newton argued that the movements of celestial bodies and the free fall of objects on Earth are determined by the same force.

What ever said by Newton is 100% correct and valid.  Gravity  is a force and it is giving you weight on Earth.  Same force is giving movement to the celestial bodies.

In space to measure mass we have to use inertial balance.  If we attach an object to the spring of the inertial balance, the object vibrates and his vibration is measured as mass. What is causing this vibration.  If there is no flow of Gravity, there is no vibrations at all.  Vibrations generated by a Mass is different and it works differently.

Einstein thought experiment, gravity in space ship, in deep space, clearly gives us an idea that gravity is a field present on Earth and it can be packed and moved.  So, it clearly tells us that Gravity is a field  present on Earth like a water pond.  If you go deeper and deeper into the pond, it gives you weight.  If you are on the surface, you are in free fall.

Suppose, if there is flow of water, rivers, canals, in such case, there is a force of water and even if you are at rest, it forces you to move along with it.   Similarly, gravity field is moving like water in the river, in the space, causing celestial bodies to move.

As assumed by Newton, same force giving you weight on Earth is moving the celestial bodies.  Here Inverse square law is different, for the present, I am not going deep into that one.

Light coming from distant galaxies is often bent by the presence of massive galaxies (or galaxy clusters) between the distant galaxy and us. This can produce rings, arcs are multiple images.
It clearly tells us, movement of gravity within galaxies.  We have already discussed, unless there is a change in the elevator, up, down there is no light bending at all.  Light taking rings, arcs clearly tells us that there is movement of gravity field.  What else proof is needed.

From this, it is clear that celestial bodies are not moving naturally, inertia of motion.  But it is due  to movement or force of gravity that they are moving or inertia.

Another important point, in my view, yet to be discussed is, why celestial bodies are in non-descending trajectories.  Ok, for better visualization, assume that you are in a river and water is flowing fast, it takes you along with it.  In case for any reason, it slows down, slowly you will start moving down.  It all depends on the density of  the Gravity field in space.  If the density start weakening, slowly, planetary bodies start descending.  If the density weakens further and further, planetary bodies descends further.  Finally, planetary bodies, descends and goes out of control and turns out as asteroids.

Yours
Psreddy
Title: Re: What exactly is gravity?
Post by: Colin2B on 28/05/2021 19:33:16
This topic is locked until you pm the required details of the books and pages you used for the equivalence principle.

If you post another topic on the same subject without doing that you will have your posting rights suspended.