Naked Science Forum

Non Life Sciences => Technology => Topic started by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 10:33:32

Title: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 10:33:32
Ethanol fuel is the way to go. If you have ever had the problem of water in your fuel then ethanol fuel is the cure as alcohol can mix with petrol and water. They say ethanol fuel is green well yes it does burn that little bit cleaner but is that why it is produced no. When the oil is collected from the deep drillings ocean and groundwater are introduced to the mix this water is a problem for the refinery that prepares the oil and converts it to the fuel that we use. The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water that is still in the fuel by adding ethanol the water can mix with the petrol and water so it can be evenly injected into our motors if we have water in the fuel without ethanol the water will collect at the bottom of the tank and be delivered to the engine in concentrated amounts leading to engine stall. If your car is up to the task of handling this fuel then use it no more water problems. Do you believe this is why ethanol fuel was created?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 11:04:08
Ethanol fuel is the way to go. If you have ever had the problem of water in your fuel then ethanol fuel is the cure as alcohol can mix with petrol and water. They say ethanol fuel is green well yes it does burn that little bit cleaner but is that why it is produced no. When the oil is collected from the deep drillings ocean and groundwater are introduced to the mix this water is a problem for the refinery that prepares the oil and converts it to the fuel that we use. The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water that is still in the fuel by adding ethanol the water can mix with the petrol and water so it can be evenly injected into our motors if we have water in the fuel without ethanol the water will collect at the bottom of the tank and be delivered to the engine in concentrated amounts leading to engine stall. If your car is up to the task of handling this fuel then use it no more water problems. Do you believe this is why ethanol fuel was created?
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 11:05:16
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Why?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: evan_au on 02/10/2021 11:17:40
Ethanol is slightly less energy dense than traditional gasoline (so you have to fill up more often).
- Ethanol still produces carbon dioxide, but since it is usually produced from growing plants, it contributes less carbon dioxide than burning fossil carbon.
- Most countries sell a mix of ethanol and gasoline as an option (not a mix of ethanol and water).
- Brazil has taken ethanol further than most countries, as ethanol can be produced from locally-grown sugar cane. Motor vehicles can sense the ethanol content in the fuel, and adjust the engine parameters to get the most from the fuel.
- Of course, large-scale cultivation of a sugarcane monoculture displaces a richer biodiversity, so it has some downsides, too.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Correction: Inserted less, as advised below - thanks!
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 11:20:08
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Why?
Presumably because nobody told you, and you didn't go and find out; you just made up stuff.

The dominant call for including ethanol in fuel is to reduce the carbon footprint. It also acts as an anti-knock additive which is helpful since we abandoned tetraethyl  lead in (most) petrol.
The presence of oxygen in the molecule  does lead to cleaner burning, but that's a secondary consideration.

The petroleum industry has a number of very effective ways to remove water from fuel- the simplest is to wait for it to settle.
But it's important to realise that  the first step in crude oil refining is a distillation, and that will remove all the water.
From there on, the process happens in closed containers, columns  and pipes etc. There's no way for water to get in.
So they can't be using water as a solution to the presence of water, can they?
Also, it's just not very effective at helping water and hydrocarbons to mix.



Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 11:23:01
(not a mix of ethanol and water)
The water is not an option it is in the fuel as a result of faster production and sale of the fuel the ethanol is to make the fuel work without the problems that the water would otherwise produce.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 11:29:59
So they can't be using water as a solution to the presence of water, can they?
I never said they add water only that they add ethanol to allow the water to be ingested into the engines to prevent problems. This is so the refineries can move the fuel on faster without waiting for all the water to settle.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 11:52:28
I never said they add water only that they add ethanol to allow the water to be ingested into the engines to prevent problems.
OK let's see what you actually said.
The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water

Now, given that there's never any water in petrol or diesel while it is part of the manufacturing process, how could your assertion make sense?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 11:53:56
The water is not an option it is in the fuel as a result of faster production
Again; how is that possible?
The very first step in oil refining strips out all the water.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 11:59:36
Quote from: Just thinking on Today at 19:33:32

    The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water


Now, given that there's never any water in petrol or diesel while it is part of the manufacturing process, how could your assertion make sense?
As I quoted the ethanol is added to the dregs at the bottom of the barrel that is where most of the water remaining is. The bottom of the tank has most of the remaining water and it is faster to move this fuel on mixed with ethanol than to wait for the water to settle.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 12:02:39
Quote from: Just thinking on Today at 19:33:32

    The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water


Now, given that there's never any water in petrol or diesel while it is part of the manufacturing process, how could your assertion make sense?
As I quoted the ethanol is added to the dregs at the bottom of the barrel that is where most of the water remaining is. The bottom of the tank has most of the remaining water and it is faster to move this fuel on mixed with ethanol than to wait for the water to settle.
Again; how is that possible?
The very first step in oil refining strips out all the water.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 12:07:07
Again; how is that possible?
The very first step in oil refining strips out all the water.
This is the problem of water in the fuel it takes time for water to settle and the fuel is moving so the water is constantly being mixed and not picked up. They do remove water from the fuel but not all to remove all water the fuel will need to remain still for days this will slow down production hence the ading of ethonol.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 12:29:16
This is the problem of water in the fuel it takes time for water to settle
Who cares how long it takes to settle?

They remove it by distillation.
From that point onwards, there' no way for water to get in until it leaves the refinery and gets trucked out to gas stations.


They add ethanol before it leaves the refinery.
At that point it is dry.

Any water that gets in happens later on.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Eternal Student on 02/10/2021 12:33:51
Hi.
@evan_au
There is less missing.  With less missing it implies there is more (which there isn't).  There is less, which is why we need more.  I think you just need to add less.

Ethanol is slightly LESS energy dense than traditional gasoline (so you have to fill up more often).

Best Wishes.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 12:46:59
Who cares how long it takes to settle?

They remove it by distillation.
From that point onwards, there' no way for water to get in until it leaves the refinery and gets trucked out to gas stations.


They add ethanol before it leaves the refinery.
At that point it is dry.

Any water that gets in happens later on.
No that is not true water is in the crude oil it enters when the oil is extracted from the earth the refineries are responsible for the removal of this water as well as converting it into petrol but it is not posable to remove all of the water as the refineries are moving the product faster to make a greater profit. Ethanol is added to make the process faster.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 12:54:52
Who cares how long it takes to settle?

They remove it by distillation.
From that point onwards, there' no way for water to get in until it leaves the refinery and gets trucked out to gas stations.


They add ethanol before it leaves the refinery.
At that point it is dry.

Any water that gets in happens later on.
No that is not true water is in the crude oil it enters when the oil is extracted from the earth the refineries are responsible for the removal of this water as well as converting it into petrol but it is not posable to remove all of the water as the refineries are moving the product faster to make a greater profit. Ethanol is added to make the process faster.
THEY REMOVE ALL THE WATER BY DISTILLATION.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 13:04:13
Any water that gets in happens later on.
So if water gets in later on will the ethanol help this problem, Yes and it helps with the problem of having water in the fuel from the start.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 13:08:27
Any water that gets in happens later on.
So if water gets in later on will the ethanol help this problem, Yes and it helps with the problem of having water in the fuel from the start.
Are you saying they use time travel?

The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water
How do they know, before the fuel leaves the refinery, which bits of it will become contaminated with water so that they can add ethanol to it?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 13:20:48
Are you saying they use time travel?

Quote from: Just thinking on Today at 19:33:32

    The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water

How do they know, before the fuel leaves the refinery, which bits of it will become contaminated with water so that they can add ethanol to it?
I have no idea what time travel has to do with it but the water settles to the bottom of the multi million litter tasks at the refinery and that is the dregs that I speak off. Ethanol is added to speed up the emptying of the tanks for sale. This is better than waiting for the concentrated water to setal.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 13:53:26
I have no idea what time travel has to do with it
Because you are saying that they work out in advance what fuel streams will be contaminated so that they can add ethanol.

Basically, if the water settles out at the bottom of a tank, it can be dealt with.
If it remains suspended (with or without the help of ethanol) it isn't a problem.

Incidentally, if, for some reason, you wish to remove the ethanol from petrol, it's easy.
You just add water.
The alcohol dissolves in it and settles out.

One big problem with using ethanol as a fuel additive is that the distillation of alcohol only gives you 96% or so pure alcohol- the rest is water.
That's enough water that, if you add it to the fuel, it settles out- it doesn't mix properly.

So they have to take extra care to dry the alcohol- if there's significant water there, it won't mix.

That's not going to be much use as a way to get fuel and water to mix, is it?

Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 13:58:35
Yes and it helps with the problem of having water in the fuel from the start.
You don't have water in diesel or petrol "from the start" because the water is removed before the gasoline and diesel are produced.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 14:09:32
Because you are saying that they work out in advance what fuel streams will be contaminated so that they can add ethanol.
That right the water accumulates at the bottom of the tanks so ethanol is added to make this fuel viable without waiting for the water to settle this way the tank can be used to collect more fuel in a sooner time frame. It's all about moving fuel faster for sale.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 14:21:17
Here is an example if we have a fuel tank full of petrol that has no water and no ethanol that is good but if we add one litre of water that is bad why the water will setal and enter the fuel line and stop the engine if we add one litter of ethanol the water will mix with the ethanol and the fuel and will no longer be a problem as it will now pass through the fuel system and burn.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 02/10/2021 16:42:17
OK lunch is over you've had a sandwich and time to research let's go.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: alancalverd on 03/10/2021 00:04:01
There is no water in gasoline or diesel as sold. Problem is that the vehicle fuel tank "breathes" as the temperature changes, and water gradually condenses out of the atmosphere in cold weather, accumulating at the bottom of the tank. Not much of a problem for road vehicles which do not pick the fuel up from the very bottom, but potentially serious for aircraft where the fuel tanks are in the wings, drained from the bottom, and subject to very wide temperature ranges. If you don't check the fuel quality before flying, you can end up with water freezing in the fuel line - very uncomfortable.

Whilst most gasoline engines can be adapted to run on anything up to pure ethanol, it does attack some synthetic rubbers and its addition is prohibited in many diesel engines.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 15:40:11
the water accumulates at the bottom of the tanks
Where from?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 15:43:31
if we add one litter of ethanol the water will mix with the ethanol and the fuel and will no longer be a problem as it will now pass through the fuel system and burn.
No
because 50:50 ethanol water is not miscible with petrol.
Even the 96:4 mixture you get (as an azeotrope) but distillation will not mix with petrol.

Why are you saying it will?

could  it be that
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 15:48:41
That right the water accumulates at the bottom of the tanks
There isn't any.
It was removed at the first distillation stage. The whole of the refinery is designed as a closed system so that the product does not escape and, because of that, water does not get in until after the material leaves the production plant.
So there is already ethanol in it (if it's that grade of fuel) or there is not (if it's not a blended fuel).

At some later stage there may well be contamination by water.
That should not happen.

Obviously, mistakes happen and sometimes it will get water in it by mistake, but that isn't part of the process- it is a fault.

And, if it happens, the ethanol does not actually do a good job of getting the petrol and water to mix.
What happens is that the water causes (wet) alcohol to separate out.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 16:04:52
Why are you saying it will?

could  it be that
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02-10-2021, 20:04:08

    You have no idea what you are talking about.
It has not got to mix perfectly as soon as the car starts moving the sloshing of the fuel in the tank will mix the ethanol and water it may not be atomised but it will be in small broken segments that can be ingested without the engine stalling. And yes there can be water in the finished product from the refinery and that is the lower level of the collection tanks this is the fuel that is used to supplement the ethanol mix. These tanks are millions of litter and they haven't got time to wait for the water to setal out as the fuel is moved on very fast. And one more point do you think they put ethanol in petrol just to keep the greens happy NO maybe it's because of the water.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 17:03:19

* alcohol in white spirit.jpg (122.16 kB . 756x1008 - viewed 2044 times)
It has not got to mix perfectly
Do you know what actually happens when you put alcohol in a hydrocarbon?
I just took a picture.
This is 2.5 ml of >95% alcohol in 25 ml of white spirit.
The arrow shows the meniscus where the stuff settled out.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 17:08:41
And one more point do you think they put ethanol in petrol just to keep the greens happy NO maybe it's because of the water.
It plainly doesn't work with water.
On the other hand, if I add 2.5 ml of isopropanol to that tube the whole lot will mix.
Isopropanol is slightly cheaper than ethanol. (That will depend where you live...)
So, why do you think they use the less effective, but more expensive alcohol?
It's because it's got a lower carbon footprint.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 17:11:21
Do you know what actually happens when you put alcohol in a hydrocarbon?
How long did it take the alcohol to setal and that hydrocarbon does not look like petrol to me?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 17:13:31
So, why do you think they use the less effective, but more expensive alcohol?
It's because it's got a lower carbon footprint.
Why put alcohol in the petrol at all if it is not to do with the water.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 17:33:00
Here is an article from a chemical expert. [ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 17:45:56
 [ Invalid Attachment ]
It plainly doesn't work with water.
A little picture to help.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 17:56:48

* fuel 2.PNG (21.96 kB . 902x467 - viewed 1498 times)
It plainly doesn't work with water.
A little picture to help.
You have posted a badly drawn fantasy.
I posted an actual picture of what happens; the wet alcohol rapidly settles out.

This is a science page, not a bad art gallery.

Your so-called expert points out that methylated spirit contains methanol.

If you look at this table you will see that methanol does not mix with saturated hydrocarbons.
https://www.csustan.edu/sites/default/files/groups/Chemistry/Drake/documents/solvent_miscibility_table.pdf
So the methanol will not mix with petrol or diesel.
That's a pretty glaring fault, isn't it?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 18:02:47
So, why do you think they use the less effective, but more expensive alcohol?
It's because it's got a lower carbon footprint.
Why put alcohol in the petrol at all if it is not to do with the water.
Why put alcohol in the petrol at all if it is not to do with the water.


It's because it's got a lower carbon footprint.


How long did it take the alcohol
Less time than it took me to take a picture.
that hydrocarbon does not look like petrol to me?
Gosh!
That's because it isn't, which is why I said
25 ml of white spirit.

But the two are very similar- the white spirit offered two advantages, I had it to hand and it is less likely to contain additives.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 18:11:06
So the methanol will not mix with petrol or diesel.
That's a pretty glaring fault, isn't it?
Not really as you have overlooked the fact that water is in the mix and that makes all the difference. It has been common knowledge among motorists for many years that adding alcohol to the fuel tank will allow the water to become buoyant and be picked up by the fuel line. My little diagram reveals this fact. ABCD 1234.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 18:17:11
But the two are very similar- the white spirit offered two advantages, I had it to hand and it is less likely to contain additives.
Unfortunately they are not similar at all best to use real petrol and alcohol but this time don't forget the water. Try 88% petrol 2% water and 10% alcohol.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 18:45:47
Unfortunately they are not similar at all
Yes they are, granted it's slightly more like diesel.
The solvent properties of the saturated hydrocarbons are pretty much the same as each other in the petrol/ diesel range.
None of them mix with methanol.


Not really as you have overlooked the fact that water is in the mix and that makes all the difference.
There's water in the stuff I actually did an experiment  with.
You are the one who overlooked it.
Try 88% petrol 2% water and 10% alcohol.
Do you think this will be different from (as my best guess) 90% hydrocarbon, 0.25% water and  9.75% alcohol?

Don't you see how adding more water- as you suggest-  will just make it even more likely that stuff will settle out?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 18:47:27
My little diagram reveals this fact.
It's not a fact; I have shown experimental evidence that proves your idea is wrong.
You have shown that you aren't very good with Paint or whatever it was.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 18:57:45
just make it even more likely that stuff will settle out?
I see the problem you have been under the impression that I have said it will not settle but I have not said that it will not settle I have stated that it will mix the mix is not permanent but works when agitated and becomes usable. If the fuel line in the tank picks up a blob of water the engine will stop if the water is dispersed in the fuel it can pass throw the system without a problem. So alcohol in contaminated fuel will make it usable. A,E,I,O,U.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 19:00:09
Paint or whatever it was.
Just standard paint on windows 10.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 19:05:18
if the water is dispersed in the fuel
But, as I showed, in reality, it isn't dispersed; it settles rapidly.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 19:06:00
I have stated that it will mix
Yes; you have repeatedly made that false statement.
Why?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 19:16:40
But, as I showed, in reality, it isn't dispersed; it settles rapidly.
See there is a number of things to consider in the real world water in the cars petrol tank will reveal its self as a problem in a very short time as the fuel line pickup is very close to the bottom of the tank so it will be a very small amount of water to contend with maybe 500 MLS now with up to 5 litres of alcohol in the mix it will do a very good job of making that little bit of water buoyant.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 19:20:58
Yes; you have repeatedly made that false statement.
Why?
No, I stated that it is not a permanent mix. But it mixes well when in motion and will pass throw the fuel system.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 19:26:52
A hundred people can mix in the crowd and then they can all go home. See mixing, Not mixing.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 19:32:02
You are not arguing with me; you are trying to argue with reality, as shown by an experiment.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 19:41:55
You are not arguing with me; you are trying to argue with reality, as shown by an experiment.
Well I have provided you with all the facts. You still haven't given an answer as to why E10 fuel and alike are on the market. Is it for the green people or is it for some other strange reason if not water?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 19:47:33
And one more point do you think they put ethanol in petrol just to keep the greens happy

Interesting that you mention E10.
In the UK they just changed the "standard" mix of 5% alcohol in petrol to 10%.

Do you think that's  because there's more water in it, or because they are dropping the carbon footprint?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 19:51:04
You still haven't given an answer as to why E10 fuel and alike are on the market.
Yes I have.

The dominant call for including ethanol in fuel is to reduce the carbon footprint.
It's because it's got a lower carbon footprint.

And I'm not the only one.

Ethanol still produces carbon dioxide, but since it is usually produced from growing plants, it contributes less carbon dioxide than burning fossil carbon.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 19:52:13
Well I have provided you with all the facts.
The only new thing you provided was a bad diagram.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 20:04:58
Interesting that you mention E10.
In the UK they just changed the "standard" mix of 5% alcohol in petrol to 10%.

Do you think that's  because there's more water in it, or because they are dropping the carbon footprint?
Well let's look at this E10 fuel sell for 15 to 20% less than the non E fuels so it looks to me that they are giving it away Even to the point of a portion of the petrol its self. Not very profitable or is it to get rid of the fuel that they would have to spend more time finishing. The industries that produce the ethanol was originally set up to make an alternative fuel not a supplement for petrol. No one has made the effort to produce an engine for a public market that will run on pure alcohol so they found a use as an additive.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 20:12:11
Interesting that you mention E10.
In the UK they just changed the "standard" mix of 5% alcohol in petrol to 10%.

Do you think that's  because there's more water in it, or because they are dropping the carbon footprint?
Well let's look at this E10 fuel sell for 15 to 20% less than the non E fuels so it looks to me that they are giving it away Even to the point of a portion of the petrol its self. Not very profitable or is it to get rid of the fuel that they would have to spend more time finishing. The industries that produce the ethanol was originally set up to make an alternative fuel not a supplement for petrol. No one has made the effort to produce an engine for a public market that will run on pure alcohol so they found a use as an additive.
So you finally accepted that it's not to do with water.
That's good.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 20:19:33
So you finally accepted that it's not to do with water.
That's good.
No ethanol became a way for the petrol refineries to move their fuel faster. Why would they make a more complicated fuel mix for 20% less profit?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 20:33:52
So you finally accepted that it's not to do with water.
That's good.
No ethanol became a way for the petrol refineries to move their fuel faster. Why would they make a more complicated fuel mix for 20% less profit?
Do you realise that most of the price you pay is tax?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 20:44:14
Do you realise that most of the price you pay is tax?
It sounds like your coming around now to my way of thinking. That right the government is subsidising the bill for E fuel to make it more enticing and it works I'm hooked.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 20:51:05
Yes that's right.
Now here's the next thing you need to grasp.
The government- which sets tax levels- is not concerned with the accidental presence of water in fuel, but it does have international obligations about reducing the carbon footprint of vehicle use.

So, do you now accept that i was right when I said that you had no idea what you were talking about?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 20:51:58
It sounds like your coming around now to my way of thinking.
No; I'm basing my thinking on evidence and deduction.
You based yours on a silly guess.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 21:04:24
obligations about reducing the carbon footprint of vehicle use.
I don't think the number of people using E fuel will amount to very much and E fuel is not that much cleaner than the alternatives. There are benefits in E fuel it's cheaper it can help to keep the fuel injectors free of build up as the water particles pass throw and it makes the green people happy but they don't know about the water situation.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 22:41:06
There are benefits in E fuel it's cheaper
Nope.
If ethanol was cheaper than petrol, everybody would already be using it.

Have you noticed how everything you say turns out to be wrong?

It really doesn't work with water.
The experiment proved that.
You seem to be ignoring reality.
Do you often do that in real life, or just on-line?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/10/2021 22:44:33
I don't think the number of people using E fuel will amount to very much
It's everyone who uses standard petrol.


"Current petrol grades in the UK contain up to 5% bioethanol, known as E5. "

From
https://www.griffinmill.co.uk/news/what-exactly-is-e10-fuel-and-what-do-you-need/25703/newsdetail.aspx


You have no idea what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 22:54:59
If ethanol was cheaper than petrol, everybody would already be using it.
It's cheaper in Australia and not very many are using it.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 23:00:40
It's everyone who uses standard petrol.


"Current petrol grades in the UK contain up to 5% bioethanol, known as E5. "
It gets very damp in Britain so I suspect you will need it there. Australia is warm and dry we burn it just for the fun. PS don't forget the little blue box at the top right and press thanks.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 23:05:14
A little more artwork to highlight the benefits of E fuel. [ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 03/10/2021 23:13:55
Nope.
If ethanol was cheaper than petrol, everybody would already be using it.
It is up to 20% cheaper in Australia you lot are getting ripped off over there.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: alancalverd on 04/10/2021 00:24:30
The producer cost and profit margin of liquid fuel is pretty much the same for all fuels everywhere. The difference is in the amount of tax the local government collects.

It is interesting that diesel is cheaper than gasoline in France because the government decided years ago that its use should be encouraged: diesel engines last longer and emit less CO2 per kilometer. It's the other way around in the  UK because the Thatcher government  was obsessed with maintaining "level playing fields" (except in schools) so taxed diesel to bring the cost per mile  closer to gasoline.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 01:28:16
taxed diesel to bring the cost per mile  closer to gasoline.
Yes, the government over here have pulled the same stunt on diesel fuel in fact they are trying to phase out diesel RV's.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 01:38:22
Do you know what actually happens when you put alcohol in a hydrocarbon?
I just took a picture.
This is 2.5 ml of >95% alcohol in 25 ml of white spirit.
The arrow shows the meniscus where the stuff settled out.
So your experiment suggests that this will happen in the car's fuel tank it's not looking too good for E fuel is it. Ore is your experiment somewhat floored I think so.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 08:34:43
Nope.
If ethanol was cheaper than petrol, everybody would already be using it.
It is up to 20% cheaper in Australia you lot are getting ripped off over there.
How do you know what it costs?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 08:36:01
It's everyone who uses standard petrol.


"Current petrol grades in the UK contain up to 5% bioethanol, known as E5. "
It gets very damp in Britain so I suspect you will need it there. Australia is warm and dry we burn it just for the fun. PS don't forget the little blue box at the top right and press thanks.
It isn't suddenly twice as damp here as it has been for years.
Thanks for nothing.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 08:40:57
So your experiment suggests that this will happen in the car's fuel tank
More or less regardless of whether there's alcohol in the fuel.
The alcohol brings about a theoretical improvement but the point is moot.
Nobody puts water in the fuel tank.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 08:41:55
taxed diesel to bring the cost per mile  closer to gasoline.
Yes, the government over here have pulled the same stunt on diesel fuel in fact they are trying to phase out diesel RV's.
Do you think that's because of concerns about water in the diesel fuel?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: evan_au on 04/10/2021 08:50:03
Quote from: Just Thinking
Ethanol...20% less profit?
You can't just compare the price per litre of E10 and "normal" petrol.

You have to compare the amount of energy you can get out of it - and it takes about 1.5 litres of ethanol to produce the same energy as 1 litre of petrol.

So if E10 is 10% Ethanol, then you need to buy around 1.15 litres of E10 to get the same energy as 1 litre of petrol. That makes up a lot of the difference in price.

In Australia, there is a very different taxation rate for Ethanol (8 cents/litre) compared to traditional petrol (41 cents/litre).

Quote
I don't think the number of people using E fuel will amount to very much
I usually choose E10.

According to this report, consumption of E10 in Australia is similar to Premium unleaded fuel, at around 13% of petrol consumption.

https://apps.fas.usda.gov/newgainapi/api/report/downloadreportbyfilename?filename=Biofuels%20Annual_Canberra_Australia_11-7-2018.pdf

One of the advantages of ethanol as an additive is that it reduces engine knock. That means the fuel does not need to be as highly refined.

As with all unleaded fuel, it has reduced the amount of lead in our bodies - apparently, in the 1960s, lead in the human body was around 3,000 times higher than some historical societies (eg mummies from Peru). Lead is bad for developing brains.
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/heavy-metal
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 09:02:03
 [ Invalid Attachment ]
Quote from: Just thinking on Today at 09:13:55

    Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 08:41:06

        Nope.
        If ethanol was cheaper than petrol, everybody would already be using it.

    It is up to 20% cheaper in Australia you lot are getting ripped off over there.

How do you know what it costs?
Have a look at something like this helps.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 09:08:12
It isn't suddenly twice as damp here as it has been for years.
Thanks for nothing.
It's probably dryer which is still quite damp.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 09:09:42
The alcohol brings about a theoretical improvement but the point is moot.
It's always MOOT when you lose.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 09:12:20
Do you think that's because of concerns about water in the diesel fuel?
That would be changing the subject now best to stay on the petrol.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 09:17:19
You have to compare the amount of energy you can get out of it - and it takes about 1.5 litres of ethanol to produce the same energy as 1 litre of petrol.
This will mean that ethanol is more expensive to run yet it sells at a far cheaper price.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 09:30:11
I usually choose E10.

According to this report, consumption of E10 in Australia is similar to Premium unleaded fuel, at around 13% of petrol consumption.
I have been using E10 for 14 years now it works well in the falcon.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 09:55:17
The alcohol brings about a theoretical improvement but the point is moot.
It's always MOOT when you lose.
What do you mean by "lose"?
I may be starting to lose patience.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 09:57:41

* price board.PNG (612.86 kB . 747x424 - viewed 2147 times)
Quote from: Just thinking on Today at 09:13:55

    Quote from: Bored chemist on Today at 08:41:06

        Nope.
        If ethanol was cheaper than petrol, everybody would already be using it.

    It is up to 20% cheaper in Australia you lot are getting ripped off over there.

How do you know what it costs?
Have a look at something like this helps.
So, you still don't understand that those numbers are more to do with the local tax rates, rather than the cost of the fuel.

Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/10/2021 11:04:08
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 10:13:05
So, you still don't understand that those numbers are more to do with the local tax rates, rather than the cost of the fuel.
No, I'm saying that's what it cost you asked how do I know this is how.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 10:23:11
I may be starting to lose patience.
If you were a doctor of medicine I would agree. But as a chemist you are losing this debate. Your own experiment suggests that E fuel separates I would suggest using the correct fluids to prove me correct.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 10:38:10
So, you still don't understand that those numbers are more to do with the local tax rates, rather than the cost of the fuel.
No, I'm saying that's what it cost you asked how do I know this is how.
But those aren't costs, they are tax rates.
The government is encouraging people to use ethanol by effectively subsidising it.
Do you think they are doing that because of water in fuel?

Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 10:40:01
you are losing this debate.
No, I'm not.
You are wrong, and everyone can see it.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 10:42:55
Your own experiment suggests that E fuel separates
No, it doesn't.
It shows that WET alcohol will not mix with hydrocarbons.
It shows that your idea is wrong.
The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water that is still in the fuel by adding ethanol the water can mix with the petrol and water so it can be evenly injected into our motors if we have water in the fuel without ethanol the water will collect at the bottom of the tank

With alcohol in the fuel, any water still settles to the bottom.
You really need to pay attention.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 11:02:51
But those aren't costs, they are tax rates.
The government is encouraging people to use ethanol by effectively subsidising it.
Do you think they are doing that because of water in fuel?
I have already made it clear that it is to do with the sale of less than perfect petrol the lower grade petrol is the bottom of the barrel stuff and is less refined and can be used with ethanol rather than having it mixed with the further refined fuel. the less refined petrol has a lower octane and by adding ethanol the octane is increased to meet the needs of the modern high compression engines but that is another story for you later I wald rather not go into engine mechanics and make you look silly.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 11:03:55
No, I'm not.
You are wrong, and everyone can see it.
Why/how.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 11:09:04
With alcohol in the fuel, any water still settles to the bottom.
You really need to pay attention.
You really need to use dry alcohol otherwise it just won't work. If the alcohol is dry it will hold water you have started off behind the 8 ball. When I have a shower I tend to use a dry towel it works better.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 11:41:20
I will try and make it a little bit more simple if we have petrol that contains a small amount of water and it is a ongoing contamination the water will accumulate and reach a point in the car's tank where the fuel line pickup will intake only the water. If we have the same water contamination but this time we have ethanol combined the water in the petrol will not accumulate in the tank as it will be consumed as the motor is running and never reach a level that will overcome the fuel line pickup. 1+1=2.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 12:05:30
 [ Invalid Attachment ]
With alcohol in the fuel, any water still settles to the bottom.
You really need to pay attention.
I found this for you on your favourite site Wikipedia I know you can trust this information It clearly states that the ethanol in petrol can hold 5% WATER to its volume. You must start researching more You never know what you will find.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 12:35:08
With alcohol in the fuel, any water still settles to the bottom.
You really need to pay attention.
Look I found more the internet is flooded with what I already know. LOOK at the big red arrow. [ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 12:40:53
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Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Reply #29 on: Today at 03:03:19

* alcohol in white spirit.jpg (122.16 kB . 756x1008 - viewed 127 times)
Quote from: Just thinking on Today at 02:04:52

    It has not got to mix perfectly

Do you know what actually happens when you put alcohol in a hydrocarbon?
I just took a picture.
This is 2.5 ml of >95% alcohol in 25 ml of white spirit.
The arrow shows the meniscus where the stuff settled out.
Kitchen experiments don't really cut the ice.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 12:51:11
I found this for you on your favourite site Wikipedia
Pity that you didn't read it.
" Hydrous ethanol (about 95% ethanol and 5% water) can be used as fuel in more than 90% of new gasoline fueled cars sold in the country. Brazilian ethanol is produced from sugar cane and noted for high carbon sequestration."
Yes. Brazil is ahead of the game; we told you this near the start of the thread.

The stuff they are talking about there is 95% alcohol and 5% water.
There's no actual petrol in it, is there?


 Gasoline sold in Brazil contains at least 25% anhydrous ethanol.
That's anhydrous ethanol; there's no actual water in it, is there?

The world leaders in adding alcohol to fuel go to the trouble of using anhydrous ethanol- which is much harder to make (and thus more expensive) than the 95% or 96% stuff you get by simple distillation.
That's because they know that the 96% alcohol will not mix with petrol.



You proved my point, but somehow think I'm losing the argument.

No, I'm not.
You are wrong, and everyone can see it.
Why/how.
Because they don't add ethanol to fuel to help it mix with water because that doesn't work (and water shouldn't be present).

They add it for environmental reasons.

Even better, WIKI has this to say about it.
Post-production water issues
Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs water vapor directly from the atmosphere. Because absorbed water dilutes the fuel value of the ethanol and may cause phase separation of ethanol-gasoline blends (which causes engine stall), containers of ethanol fuels must be kept tightly sealed.

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel#Dehydration
So, adding ethanol can make the water problem worse.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 12:51:43
Kitchen experiments don't really cut the ice.
They do better than your "shouting loudly but being wrong".
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 12:53:17
With alcohol in the fuel, any water still settles to the bottom.
You really need to pay attention.
Look I found more the internet is flooded with what I already know. LOOK at the big red arrow. [ Invalid Attachment ]
What point did you think you were making?
I have been repeatedly making the distinction between the very dry ethanol that will mix with petrol and the 96% alcohol which will not.

Essentially everyone over 18 knows that you can mix alcohol and water.
But you seem not to have noticed that you were talking about hydrocarbons as a fuel (which is what I referred to) and alcohol as an additive.

Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 13:06:04
I will try and make it a little bit more simple
You made it wrong.
If there's a little water in the tank and you add E10 petrol you will get two layers. The bottom layer will be water with some alcohol in it.
That will stop the engine
With alcohol in the fuel, any water still settles to the bottom.
You really need to pay attention.
You really need to use dry alcohol otherwise it just won't work. If the alcohol is dry it will hold water you have started off behind the 8 ball. When I have a shower I tend to use a dry towel it works better.
Yes.

What you seem to fail to grasp is that, when you have used the towel, it is no longer dry.
When you add water to the towel, it doesn't work so well.
When you add water to the E5 fuel, it doesn't work so well.
What happens is that you then have wet alcohol and it settles out of solution (as shown by actual experiment).
That stops the engine.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 13:06:53
Pity that you didn't read it.
" Hydrous ethanol (about 95% ethanol and 5% water) can be used as fuel in more than 90% of new gasoline fueled cars sold in the country. Brazilian ethanol is produced from sugar cane and noted for high carbon sequestration."
Yes. Brazil is ahead of the game; we told you this near the start of the thread.
The point is you said the ethanol will not hold water and this clearly shows that it does.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 13:08:58
Kitchen experiments don't really cut the ice.
They do better than your "shouting loudly but being wrong".

Still not cutting the ice.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 13:13:15
With alcohol in the fuel, any water still settles to the bottom.
You really need to pay attention.
Look I found more the internet is flooded with what I already know. LOOK at the big red arrow. [ Invalid Attachment ]
What point did you think you were making?
I have been repeatedly making the distinction between the very dry ethanol that will mix with petrol and the 96% alcohol which will not.

Essentially everyone over 18 knows that you can mix alcohol and water.
But you seem not to have noticed that you were talking about hydrocarbons as a fuel (which is what I referred to) and alcohol as an additive.


No, you seem to have missed the point it's all about the saturation point of the alcohol please stay on Chanel.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 13:19:08
I will try and make it a little bit more simple
You made it wrong.
If there's a little water in the tank and you add E10 petrol you will get two layers. The bottom layer will be water with some alcohol in it.
That will stop the engine
With alcohol in the fuel, any water still settles to the bottom.
You really need to pay attention.
You really need to use dry alcohol otherwise it just won't work. If the alcohol is dry it will hold water you have started off behind the 8 ball. When I have a shower I tend to use a dry towel it works better.
Yes.

What you seem to fail to grasp is that, when you have used the towel, it is no longer dry.
When you add water to the towel, it doesn't work so well.
When you add water to the E5 fuel, it doesn't work so well.
What happens is that you then have wet alcohol and it settles out of solution (as shown by actual experiment).
That stops the engine.
You are funny it's all about the saturation point. Towels hold water, Alcohol holds water I worked out the towel thing before I went to school and the alcohol thing in first class.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 13:21:01
No, you seem to have missed the point it's all about the saturation point of the alcohol
As you pointed out, you can't "saturate" alcohol with water; they are miscible in any proportions.
Please pay attention to what you are trying to tell those of us who already know it.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 13:21:38
The point is you said the ethanol will not hold water
No I did not.
If you think I did, quote it.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 13:24:27
You made it wrong.
If there's a little water in the tank and you add E10 petrol you will get two layers. The bottom layer will be water with some alcohol in it.
That will stop the engine
No the ethanol and the water will be buoyant in the petrol that means the water will not flood the bottom of the tank that's why it works.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 13:29:04
I worked out the towel thing before I went to school and the alcohol thing in first class.
What you "worked out" about alcohol is wrong.
If you add water to E5 fuel it separates out.
How little water you can dissolve depends on temperature.
In cold weather it's less than 0.1%
You can't rely on that to remove water from a .tank
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 13:30:10
No the ethanol and the water will be buoyant in the petrol
You keep ignoring reality.
I showed a picture  that shows it sinks.
It's not buoyant.

Please stop posting your hallucinations as if they are facts.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 13:34:34
As you pointed out, you can't "saturate" alcohol with water; they are miscible in any proportions.
Please pay attention to what you are trying to tell those of us who already know it.
The point here is the saturation point when combined with the petrol the water will separate from the ethanol if there is too much water. Why the petrol will dilute the ethanol but not the water. This is the point of over saturation. Stay on channel now.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 13:39:53
What you "worked out" about alcohol is wrong.
If you add water to E5 fuel it separates out.
How little water you can dissolve depends on temperature.
In cold weather it's less than 0.1%
You can't rely on that to remove water from a .tank
So now you admit it works and you are starting to get it the ethanol works to get rid of the water before the water has a chance to build up to the point that you have stated. See it works no more water flooding the bottom of the tank. Well done.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 13:44:57
Please try not sending 6x posts all at once it gets a bit overwhelming. One at a time and I will do my very best to respond.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 13:58:45
In cold weather it's less than 0.1%
I just thought I would point out what you have stated there 0.1% is 1000 litres of water in 999,000 litres of petrol.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 15:39:48
So now you admit it works
it 99.9% doesn't work.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 15:40:42
In cold weather it's less than 0.1%
I just thought I would point out what you have stated there 0.1% is 1000 litres of water in 999,000 litres of petrol.
Why?
The point remains, there should be no water and if there is, it hardly matters if what settles out has some alcohol in it.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 15:59:02

Please try not sending 6x posts all at once it gets a bit overwhelming. One at a time and I will do my very best to respond.
Is that why you missed this point?
No the ethanol and the water will be buoyant in the petrol
You keep ignoring reality.
I showed a picture  that shows it sinks.
It's not buoyant.

Please stop posting your hallucinations as if they are facts.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 16:00:06
Why?
The point remains, there should be no water and if there is, it hardly matters if what settles out has some alcohol in it.
Water in alcohol is a temporary bond water and alcohol in petrol is a temporary bond The point is that the bond lasts long enuff for the water to be ingested into the engine this means that the water will not accumulate instead it will be consumed as it is introduced to the system. If we were to put say 1 or 2 litres of water in the fuel tank the principal will be overcome and fail but we are talking a very small amount of water that can be managed. I hope this clarifies my point of view.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 16:05:44
Is that why you missed this point?
Quote from: Bored chemist on Yesterday at 23:30:10

    Quote from: Just thinking on Yesterday at 23:24:27

        No the ethanol and the water will be buoyant in the petrol

    You keep ignoring reality.
    I showed a picture  that shows it sinks.
    It's not buoyant.

    Please stop posting your hallucinations as if they are facts.
No, I did comment back on that experiment and I made the comment that it is not petrol and you commented back by saying it is close to the makeup of petrol.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 17:33:28
you commented back by saying it is close to the makeup of petrol.
And, because I'm right- you need to address the reality; the stuff settles quickly.


Water in alcohol is a temporary bond water and alcohol in petrol is a temporary bond The point is that the bond lasts long enuff
The lifetime of the bonds is of the order of ten to the minus a dozen or more seconds.

The two phases start to separate out within a second.



we are talking a very small amount of water that can be managed. I hope this clarifies my point of view.
Your point of view seems to be a moveable feast.
You now seem to be saying that, as long as there's not much water- not enough to form a separate layer- then it won't matter much.
That's obviously true.
But, if there's little or no water then the addition of ethanol to fuel can't be about water- which is what your opening post was wrong about.

This claim
The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water
Is still nonsense.

And so is this

And one more point do you think they put ethanol in petrol just to keep the greens happy NO maybe it's because of the water.

You have made two separate stupid assertions there
Yes they put the ethanol in to keep the greens happy- even though they have to subsidise it with lower tax to do so.  They are trying to get the green vote.

If they wanted to address the water problem, they would use isopropanol.
Partly because it's cheaper than ethanol.
Partly because it's got a higher energy density.
But mainly because, unlike ethanol, it does a good job of increasing the solubility of water in gasoline.

So, if you were right, why would they use the wrong alcohol?
Do you think they are stupid?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 17:48:16
But, if there's little or no water then the addition of ethanol to fuel can't be about water- which is what your opening pots was wrong about.
The thing is if there is only a very small amount of water let's say 100 ml to a full tank of petrol that is not enuff water in the tank to be picked up with the addition of the alcohol as the car is in motion that little bit of water will mix and be picked up in very small amounts this gets rid of the water before more water becomes introduced to the system. Without the alcohol present, the water will accumulate leading to an amount that will get sucked up into the fuel line. The fact is that with alcohol in the system it will assist the water in becoming mixed with the aid of motion.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 17:56:46
Yes they put the ethanol in to keep the greens happy-
This is the main part of the problem the ethanol will assist in the mixing of water to the point that it still works the ethanol will break up the water into very small beads allowing it to pass through the system when the vehicle is in motion.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 18:13:22
This is the main part of the problem the ethanol will assist in the mixing of water to the point that it still works the ethanol will break up the water into very small beads allowing it to pass through the system when the vehicle is in motion.
You state that, with no evidence and in the face of my counter-example.

You are just wrong.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 18:20:14
But, if there's little or no water then the addition of ethanol to fuel can't be about water- which is what your opening pots was wrong about.
The thing is if there is only a very small amount of water let's say 100 ml to a full tank of petrol that is not enuff water in the tank to be picked up with the addition of the alcohol as the car is in motion that little bit of water will mix and be picked up in very small amounts this gets rid of the water before more water becomes introduced to the system. Without the alcohol present, the water will accumulate leading to an amount that will get sucked up into the fuel line. The fact is that with alcohol in the system it will assist the water in becoming mixed with the aid of motion.
This is nonsense. The car sits in the garage overnight, all the water (without without ethanol in it) settles out.
This isn't the end of the world- the fuel pipe does not reach the bottom of the tank (as Alan pointed out).
So, when you start the engine, it runs.
Now either the motion of the car is enough to suspend the water in the petrol, in which case small drops will be pulled through and not matter much, or it won't.
There are detergents added to fuel; those may well help the process.
The alcohol may also help.
IPA would do a better, cheaper job but you seem to think the oil companies are too stupid to use it (I hold a different view)
But cars worked fine before they started putting alcohol in fuel.
So the presence of the alcohol is not to prevent the car engine failing.


Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 18:27:31
You state that, with no evidence and in the face of my counter-example.

You are just wrong.
The only way to tell is to have two test samples two jars fill one 3/4 with E10 and add 1ml of water the other fill 3/4 with straight petrol and add 1ml of water lids on shaking both well at the same time and see. I bet you will see the straight petrol accumulate the blob of water at the bottom of the jar well ahead of the E10 sample and the water in the E10 sample will be in much smaller globules before it settles.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 18:41:29
The only way to tell
To tell what?
That adding alcohol will increase the solubility of water?
We already know that.
What it won't tell you is if your original assertion
The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water

is true.
But... we know that it can't be true because,
(1) they don't put water in the fuel so they don't "know" which fuel to add the alcohol to
(2) ethanol doesn't do a good job, they would do better with IPA
(3) they actually add the ethanol for "green" reasons.

So, your proposed experiment couldn't possibly affect the fact that your claim was wrong, could it?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 18:47:07
But, if there's little or no water then the addition of ethanol to fuel can't be about water- which is what your opening pots was wrong about.
The thing is if there is only a very small amount of water let's say 100 ml to a full tank of petrol that is not enuff water in the tank to be picked up with the addition of the alcohol as the car is in motion that little bit of water will mix and be picked up in very small amounts this gets rid of the water before more water becomes introduced to the system. Without the alcohol present, the water will accumulate leading to an amount that will get sucked up into the fuel line. The fact is that with alcohol in the system it will assist the water in becoming mixed with the aid of motion.
This is nonsense. The car sits in the garage overnight, all the water (without without ethanol in it) settles out.
This isn't the end of the world- the fuel pipe does not reach the bottom of the tank (as Alan pointed out).
So, when you start the engine, it runs.
Now either the motion of the car is enough to suspend the water in the petrol, in which case small drops will be pulled through and not matter much, or it won't.
There are detergents added to fuel; those may well help the process.
The alcohol may also help.
IPA would do a better, cheaper job but you seem to think the oil companies are too stupid to use it (I hold a different view)
But cars worked fine before they started putting alcohol in fuel.
So the presence of the alcohol is not to prevent the car engine failing.



You have missed the point again the fact that the fuel line pickup is not at the very bottom of the tank is why I stated that it is important to keep any water accumulation below that level. And yes the ethanol is there to prevent the engine from failing as the fuel that it is mixed with on its own will have an octane level that is far too low and on its own, it will destroy your modern engine. And your other point of in the past we never had a problem running without ethanol well you tell that to all the people that did and has had water in their fuel. And I think your last point is the ethanol will act like soap or cleaning agent well maybe better than you think.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 18:54:54
That adding alcohol will increase the solubility of water?
We already know that.
What it won't tell you is if your original assertion
Ok, it sounds like you now agree that ethanol will work to aid in the mixing of water in the fuel that's a change of mind. Now all I have to do is convince you that there is a high chance of water being in the E10 fuel from the start.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 18:57:03
that's a change of mind.
No.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 18:58:13
You have missed the point again the fact that the fuel line pickup is not at the very bottom of the tank
You actually quoted me saying it.
This isn't the end of the world- the fuel pipe does not reach the bottom of the tank (as Alan pointed out).
So, when you start the engine, it runs.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 19:01:42
And yes the ethanol is there to prevent the engine from failing as the fuel that it is mixed with on its own will have an octane level that is far too low and on its own
No, That's what aromatisation, MTBE and isomerisation are for. (using more of one anti-knock  method means you can use less of another.)
But I already pointed this out to you.
The dominant call for including ethanol in fuel is to reduce the carbon footprint. It also acts as an anti-knock additive which is helpful since we abandoned tetraethyl  lead in (most) petrol.

 You keep saying things that I already said, and then pretending that I didn't know about them.
It's really silly when the whole discussion is recorded and searchable.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 19:09:04
And I think your last point is the ethanol will act like soap or cleaning agent well maybe better than you think.
Well, you may thing that it will help emulsify the water/ ethanol mixture into the hydrocarbons but as I keep pointing out (and you keep ignoring) I did the experiment, and it didn't.

You need to stop considering your hallucinations as evidence..
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 19:11:29
You actually quoted me saying it.
When I stated the fuel line pickup is at the bottom of the tank I should have said in addition less 1/2 of an inch. And there should be a slite depression at the bottom of the tank to collect any non buoyant mater that has entered the fuel system over time. One other little point I would like to make is in the old days before the invention of the plastic fuel tank were you not aware with the amount of rust that the old metal tanks accumulated or was that before your time. And what makes rust?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 19:20:51
You keep saying things that I already said, and then pretending that I didn't know about them.
It's really silly when the whole discussion is recorded and searchable.
It's quite simple you stated that the ethanol will not aid in the removal of water in petrol and you have a problem believing that there can be any water in the petrol that is used to produce E10 fuel. It really is as simple as that. I have not changed my story at all But it looks like you are starting to come around very slowly I might add.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 19:24:35
One other little point I would like to make is in the old days before the invention of the plastic fuel tank were you not aware with the amount of rust that the old metal tanks accumulated or was that before your time. And what makes rust?
It's a very little point; nobody said that water didn't ever make its way into tanks, did they?

I pointed out that it typically happened after it left the refinery (and I explained why- more than once, I think).

But you somehow seem to think that the oil companies know which tanks will get these dregs and end up needing ethanol so that's the fuel they add the ethanol to or something.

The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water
Somehow, they know there's no need to add ethanol for fuel destined for tanks that don't get rain in them or whatever.

I'm sure we are all still waiting for your explanation of why (to shift water)  they use ethanol instead of IPA, which is cheaper and better; rather than ethanol, which has a lower carbon footprint.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 19:32:17
I have not changed my story at all
Your original story. i.e this

The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water

They say ethanol fuel is green well yes it does burn that little bit cleaner but is that why it is produced no.
was, and remains wrong.

This

When the oil is collected from the deep drillings ocean and groundwater are introduced to the mix this water is a problem for the refinery that prepares the oil and converts it to the fuel that we use.
is also wrong because they strip most of the water before they even pipe it to the refinery.
One of the first stages in refining  is distillation, and that will remove all the water.
After that, it's practically a non-problem until it leaves the plant.


if we have water in the fuel without ethanol the water will collect at the bottom of the tank
That still happens if you do have ethanol in it, you can get away with slightly more water, but in practical terms, you still have to keep the fuel dry.

Do you believe this is why ethanol fuel was created?
No, I don't because, if they were doing what you say they are, they would use IPA.

Your opening post was full of errors of fact.


Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 19:34:48
It's quite simple you stated that the ethanol will not aid in the removal of water in petrol
I showed what happens if your ethanol-bearing petrol gets much water in. You get two layers.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 19:36:51
I'm sure we are all still waiting for your explanation of why (to shift water)  they use ethanol instead of IPA, which is cheaper and better; rather than ethanol, which has a lower carbon footprint.
This is rather strange if you in your own words say that IPA is cheaper but has a higher carbon footprint then that is self explanatory they keep the carbon footprint lower even if it costs a bit more that is how they advertise it. And as I have stated it still works on the water problem.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 19:48:48
I'm sure we are all still waiting for your explanation of why (to shift water)  they use ethanol instead of IPA, which is cheaper and better; rather than ethanol, which has a lower carbon footprint.
This is rather strange if you in your own words say that IPA is cheaper but has a higher carbon footprint then that is self explanatory they keep the carbon footprint lower even if it costs a bit more that is how they advertise it. And as I have stated it still works on the water problem.
Do you remember that you said the use of ethanol wasn't to do with being green?
...but is that why it is produced no...

Now you are saying that they don't use IPA because it's not green.

This is looking ironic.
I have not changed my story at all But it looks like you are starting to come around very slowly I might add.

Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 20:05:37
This

Quote from: Just thinking on 02-10-2021, 20:33:32

    When the oil is collected from the deep drillings ocean and groundwater are introduced to the mix this water is a problem for the refinery that prepares the oil and converts it to the fuel that we use.

is also wrong because they strip most of the water before they even pipe it to the refinery.
One of the first stages in refining  is distillation, and that will remove all the water.
After that, it's practically a non-problem until it leaves the plant.

This is the bit that you need to know The oil and fuel industry wouldn't come out and say we are selling E fuel why because it has water in it not a good sales pitch. So how can this be During the mid 70s the green people wanted cleaner fuel so to satisfy their needs the industry came up with a solution to make lower grade petrol and as a consequence, the faster process will leave behind a small amount of water in the lower grade petrol. See what happens when a process is rushed cheap petrol but a problem water in it. How convenient add ethanol you get two birds with the one stone higher octane and a way around the problem of water in the fuel. How do they know which fuel has the water in it well I think the industry will keep pretty good tabs on what is in their tanks. The lower grade fuel is drained from the bottom of the unfinished higher grade fuel the higher grade fuel is still to be finished in that process any remaining water will be removed and that is why the higher grade fuel is more expensive as it has gone further into the process of making better cleaner higher octane fuel. All I can do now is take your hand and go for a brisk walk around the oil refinery what are you doing tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 20:15:54
Do you remember that you said the use of ethanol wasn't to do with being green?
Yes, I remember and the point is that the ethanol main purpose is to raise the octane level and move the water the green bit is a bonus sales pitch for the green ones. It works well even the government backs it. Like you stated it works at election time. Do you think much of the public is concerned about octane level ore do you think the public should be advised to the waterside of this why when the water problem is solved no need to tell.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 20:22:22
Now you are saying that they don't use IPA because it's not green.
Ok, you say IPA is cheaper and better so you tell me why they are not using it. You better get around to that refinery and let them know about your cheaper and better option.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 21:52:13
so you tell me why they are not using it
Because  it isn't "green".

During the mid 70s the green people wanted cleaner fuel so to satisfy their needs the industry came up with a solution to make lower grade petrol
Lower grade petrol is not a greener fuel.
So that's clearly tosh.
The oil and fuel industry wouldn't come out and say we are selling E fuel why because it has water in it not a good sales pitch.
They aren't putting water in it.
You are saying that by adding 5% of relatively expensive ethanol, you can get away with adding 0.1% of water.
That's absurd. It would be cheaper to not bother.
See what happens when a process is rushed cheap petrol but a problem water in it.
No, water is removed at the initial distillation step.
You keep ignoring that and it's not making you look clever.
If water gets in after the fuel leaves the refinery, that doesn't help the oil company make a profit.


How convenient add ethanol you get two birds with the one stone higher octane and a way around the problem of water in the fuel.
Ethanol is much more expensive than petrol.
Why would they pay to do the job badly?

Also IPA is a good anti knock agent.

It's Motor Octane Number (99) is higher than that for ethanol (90).
If they wanted an anti knock agent that was also cleaner burning and helped water dissolve in petrol they would use IPA which is cheaper than ethanol.


How do they know which fuel has the water in it well I think the industry will keep pretty good tabs on what is in their tanks.
There's very little water in the tanks- as explained many times.

The lower grade fuel is drained from the bottom of the unfinished higher grade fuel the higher grade fuel
That's not how it works. The chemical makeup of higher octane fuel is a bit different- more toluene and trimethylpentane.

You don't get that by drawing it from a different level in the tank.

that is why the higher grade fuel is more expensive
No
It's because the aromatics and oxygenates etc and the isomerisation process are expensive.
So is alcohol.
You need to realise this; alcohol is more expensive than gasoline.
All I can do now is take your hand and go for a brisk walk around the oil refinery what are you doing tomorrow.
Looking at a risk assessment for a chemical works.
Yes, I remember and the point is that the ethanol main purpose is to raise the octane level
IPA would be cheaper and better.
and move the water
IPA would be cheaper and better
green bit is a bonus sales pitch for the green ones.
Well, we have some sort of progress here, you have accepted that it's more green- you are saying the motivation is advertising- which makes little sense because all the companies are using it.

(Buy our E10 petrol! it's more green than our competitors" is a sales  pitch. "Buy our petrol! it's exactly as green as our competitors E 10 petrol" isn't a sales pitch.)

OK so, give that IPA is better at solubilising water, better as an anti knock, and cheaper,
why don't you think they are using it?

Also, if 5% is enough to act as an anti knock (and it is- or E5 petrol wouldn't work, what's the motivation for E10?

My view is that the government mandated it in order to meet CO2 emissions agreements, and changed duty rates to effectively force people to buy it and car makers to change engine designs.

You think it's because oil companies are too stupid to use IPA.




Ok, you say IPA is cheaper and better so you tell me why they are not using it.

I already told you plenty of times.
It's the thing you got wrong in your opening post.
It's the green thing.
Using ethanol has a lower carbon footprint.
Even if you think the whole green movement is hogwash, the fact  remains that they are doing it to reduce CO2 emissions- the "it's advertising" bit is nonsense, but even if it was true, it would only  be a change in the motivation for reducing the carbon footprint. The point of the alcohol is still to reduce overall CO2 emissions.
 But the choice between IPA and ethanol is still pretty clear.
Unless you are concerned about carbon footprint, you use IPA.

They actually use ethanol.
And that shows that you are (still) wrong.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 22:21:48
so you tell me why they are not using it
Because  it isn't "green".

During the mid 70s the green people wanted cleaner fuel so to satisfy their needs the industry came up with a solution to make lower grade petrol
Lower grade petrol is not a greener fuel.
So that's clearly tosh.
The oil and fuel industry wouldn't come out and say we are selling E fuel why because it has water in it not a good sales pitch.
They aren't putting water in it.
You are saying that by adding 5% of relatively expensive ethanol, you can get away with adding 0.1% of water.
That's absurd. It would be cheaper to not bother.
See what happens when a process is rushed cheap petrol but a problem water in it.
No, water is removed at the initial distillation step.
You keep ignoring that and it's not making you look clever.
If water gets in after the fuel leaves the refinery, that doesn't help the oil company make a profit.


How convenient add ethanol you get two birds with the one stone higher octane and a way around the problem of water in the fuel.
Ethanol is much more expensive than petrol.
Why would they pay to do the job badly?

Also IPA is a good anti knock agent.

It's Motor Octane Number (99) is higher than that for ethanol (90).
If they wanted an anti knock agent that was also cleaner burning and helped water dissolve in petrol they would use IPA which is cheaper than ethanol.


How do they know which fuel has the water in it well I think the industry will keep pretty good tabs on what is in their tanks.
There's very little water in the tanks- as explained many times.

The lower grade fuel is drained from the bottom of the unfinished higher grade fuel the higher grade fuel
That's not how it works. The chemical makeup of higher octane fuel is a bit different- more toluene and trimethylpentane.

You don't get that by drawing it from a different level in the tank.

that is why the higher grade fuel is more expensive
No
It's because the aromatics and oxygenates etc and the isomerisation process are expensive.
So is alcohol.
You need to realise this; alcohol is more expensive than gasoline.
All I can do now is take your hand and go for a brisk walk around the oil refinery what are you doing tomorrow.
Looking at a risk assessment for a chemical works.
Yes, I remember and the point is that the ethanol main purpose is to raise the octane level
IPA would be cheaper and better.
and move the water
IPA would be cheaper and better
green bit is a bonus sales pitch for the green ones.
Well, we have some sort of progress here, you have accepted that it's more green- you are saying the motivation is advertising- which makes little sense because all the companies are using it.

(Buy our E10 petrol! it's more green than our competitors" is a sales  pitch. "Buy our petrol! it's exactly as green as our competitors E 10 petrol" isn't a sales pitch.)

OK so, give that IPA is better at solubilising water, better as an anti knock, and cheaper,
why don't you think they are using it?

Also, if 5% is enough to act as an anti knock (and it is- or E5 petrol wouldn't work, what's the motivation for E10?

My view is that the government mandated it in order to meet CO2 emissions agreements, and changed duty rates to effectively force people to buy it and car makers to change engine designs.

You think it's because oil companies are too stupid to use IPA.




Ok, you say IPA is cheaper and better so you tell me why they are not using it.

I already told you plenty of times.
It's the thing you got wrong in your opening post.
It's the green thing.
Using ethanol has a lower carbon footprint.
Even if you think the whole green movement is hogwash, the fact  remains that they are doing it to reduce CO2 emissions- the "it's advertising" bit is nonsense, but even if it was true, it would only  be a change in the motivation for reducing the carbon footprint. The point of the alcohol is still to reduce overall CO2 emissions.
 But the choice between IPA and ethanol is still pretty clear.
Unless you are concerned about carbon footprint, you use IPA.

They actually use ethanol.
And that shows that you are (still) wrong.

The problem just get worse I never said they put water in petrol I have stated that not all the water is removed. And we have already discussed how the government subsidises the cost of E10 to keep the greens happy and win elections. You really must remember what has already been discussed memory is a big part of learning try and stay on the channel if you can. And you have quoted that there is very little water in the tanks so we agree there is water in the tanks. let's try not to go around in circles and stay focused on the big picture.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: evan_au on 04/10/2021 22:22:49
Quote from: Just Thinking
This will mean that ethanol is more expensive to run yet it sells at a far cheaper price.
The sale price is what the petrol station advertises (per litre).
The running costs are borne by the car owner (how many litres they need for a given trip).
The two are not contradictory, but they do tend to cancel out for both the car owner and petrol station operator...
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 22:43:32
The sale price is what the petrol station advertises (per litre).
The running costs are borne by the car owner (how many litres they need for a given trip).
The two are not contradictory, but they do almost cancel out for both the car owner and petrol station operator...
I get about 5% less mileage from E10 but it costs at the moment 15% less so I should be around 10% better off. All my driving is in the country and open roads so that may make a slight difference. LPG is very bad in the city I don't know how taxis get on.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2021 22:57:16
I have stated that not all the water is removed.
Yes, you have.
And that's pretty dim because the pre-treatment and  distillation will remove essentially all the water.

But the other thing you said was
The oil and fuel industry wouldn't come out and say we are selling E fuel why because it has water in it
you would only have to say that if it had water in it.
And if you don't add water, why would it have water in it?

The implication is that you did add water - by accident or design.
If not you, who else?



And we have already discussed how the government subsidises the cost of E10 to keep the greens happy and win elections.
Yes; they do that by using ethanol to reduce the  carbon footprint.
Because that's what people vote for- regardless of whether that's actually a good thing.
So the purpose of the ethanol is to reduce the CO2 emissions (because that wins votes).

Why are you so slow catching on to this?



You really must remember what has already been discussed memory
I had already made those points about the addition of water and the fact that the motivation for reducing the CO2 production isn't important.
The ethanol reduces it.
IPA would achieve the other goals, but not CO2 reduction; so it's clear that the use of ethanol is because they want to reduce CO2 (to win votes)
I pointed all this out before.

It's a pity you didn't stay on channel and remember that.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Petrochemicals on 04/10/2021 23:03:48
No, for the same reason that solar is a non starter, because the land is too valuable to use producing fuel. If we could grow our fuel we could make methanol or wood alcohol, but grain and the straw that comes with it are too valuable. As an example, you can make fuel from animal slurry, but farmers value it too highly to sell for the price people will pay.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 23:13:30
I have stated that not all the water is removed.
Yes, you have.
And that's pretty dim because the pre-treatment and  distillation will remove essentially all the water.

But the other thing you said was
The oil and fuel industry wouldn't come out and say we are selling E fuel why because it has water in it
you would only have to say that if it had water in it.
And if you don't add water, why would it have water in it?

The implication is that you did add water - by accident or design.
If not you, who else?



And we have already discussed how the government subsidises the cost of E10 to keep the greens happy and win elections.
Yes; they do that by using ethanol to reduce the  carbon footprint.
Because that's what people vote for- regardless of whether that's actually a good thing.
So the purpose of the ethanol is to reduce the CO2 emissions (because that wins votes).

Why are you so slow catching on to this?



You really must remember what has already been discussed memory
I had already made those points about the addition of water and the fact that the motivation for reducing the CO2 production isn't important.
The ethanol reduces it.
IPA would achieve the other goals, but not CO2 reduction; so it's clear that the use of ethanol is because they want to reduce CO2 (to win votes)
I pointed all this out before.

It's a pity you didn't stay on channel and remember that.
I can't help it if you misinterpret what I have said If the public was to ask the government or the oil industry why are you selling E10 fuel they will reply it is greener and they will not mention the fact about there being water in the fuel that is water that is already in the fuel you make a very week argument by suggesting that I have said they put water in the fuel when I have clearly stated from the start that the water is not fully removed. I can't fall into a trap that I can see from a mile away. I can see that you like to play mind games but you will be better of saving that type of strategy for the children.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 23:19:12
No, for the same reason that solar is a non starter, because the land is too valuable to use producing fuel. If we could grow our fuel we could make methanol or wood alcohol, but grain and the straw that comes with it are too valuable. As an example, you can make fuel from animal slurry, but farmers value it too highly to sell for the price people will pay.
You make a good point there is a lot going on to get the energy to the market and it almost all of the time takes up valuable land.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: alancalverd on 04/10/2021 23:32:25
Apolgies for introducing a fact, but ethanol is denser than gasoline, and water is much denser. So any ethanol-water mix will settle at the bottom of the tank. The only question is whether ethanol has a greater affinity for gasoline or water, and I suspect the latter.

The affinity between water and gasoline is negligible. We sometimes have to refuel aircraft in the rain and if you get a really heavy cloudburst whilst the fuel cap is open, common sense demands that you wait about 30 minutes for the water to settle then drain off the bottom of the tank.   
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 04/10/2021 23:47:39
Apolgies for introducing a fact, but ethanol is denser than gasoline, and water is much denser. So any ethanol-water mix will settle at the bottom of the tank.
But the ethanol will support the little bit of water and assist in keeping it in the petrol for longer before it settles and with the car in motion, the mix will start again anyway if the ethanol is denser than the fuel then what happens when the car is sitting overnight 10% ethanol will be at the bottom of the tank and the car will have to ingest only ethanol will the car run on straight ethanol?
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: alancalverd on 04/10/2021 23:54:06
As I said, it's all a question of relative affinities. Whilst you may be able to dissolve ethanol in gasoline, I'd expect that adding water would strip it out. Fortunately virgin gasoline contains no water so it  may be able to dissolve  a fair bit of ethanol.

Face it, sodium chloride is a lot denser than water, but it doesn't all crystallise at the bottom of the ocean. At low concentrations, affinity is more important than density.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Just thinking on 05/10/2021 00:08:20
As I said, it's all a question of relative affinities. Whilst you may be able to dissolve ethanol in gasoline, I'd expect that adding water would strip it out.
I am pretty sure that ethanol has a saturation capability of 5% so that would be 250ml of water in 5 litres of ethanol. That is at a volume of 50 litres of E10 in total.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/10/2021 08:45:15
No, for the same reason that solar is a non starter, because the land is too valuable to use producing fuel. If we could grow our fuel we could make methanol or wood alcohol, but grain and the straw that comes with it are too valuable. As an example, you can make fuel from animal slurry, but farmers value it too highly to sell for the price people will pay.
That would make the use of (bio) ethanol a bad idea.
But it wouldn't change the fact that they use it to reduce CO2 emissions.
I can't fall into a trap that I can see from a mile away. I can see that you like to play mind games but you will be better of saving that type of strategy for the children.
Nice attempt at distraction buy pretending that what you wrote wasn't what you meant.
But it's not going to work against me, is it?

You forgot to answer the points about IPA being better anti knock  and giving better solubilisation of water.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/10/2021 08:51:04
I am pretty sure...
You are always sure, but often wrong.
ethanol has a saturation capability of 5% so that would be 250ml of water in 5 litres of ethanol.
That is nonsense.
the amount of water that will dissolve doesn't just depend on the amount of alcohol present. It depends on the concentration of alcohol in the petrol. (and on temperature)

You tried to say that I was wrong about this earlier when you made the redundant observation that alcohol and water will mix in all proportions.


In reality, as a I said,  the solubility of water in gasohol can be as little as 0.1%
I think the data is in the wiki page you cited; it's certainly there somewhere.


Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/10/2021 08:53:47
Face it, sodium chloride is a lot denser than water
I think you may be onto a lost cause there Alan.
He doesn't even face it when I show him a picture of damp  alcohol, settled out of white spirit.
He assumes that magic makes them mix, and stay mixed, even if the tank sits overnight (as they generally do).

He's just not in the mood for reality.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/10/2021 08:57:23
I'd expect that adding water would strip it out.
It does.
And Just Thinking knows it, because I told him earlier.
But he wont listen to mere facts.

Incidentally, if, for some reason, you wish to remove the ethanol from petrol, it's easy.
You just add water.
The alcohol dissolves in it and settles out.

We have another Dave Lev or Jolly here.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: alancalverd on 05/10/2021 09:38:03
I am pretty sure that ethanol has a saturation capability of 5% so that would be 250ml of water in 5 litres of ethanol.
Funny, that. I can buy 50% water in ethanol (vodka) and dissolve aromatics in the alcohol (sloe colors and flavors) and carbohydrates (sugar) in the water. Delicious, and it doesn't striate at all.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/10/2021 11:16:15
Have you tried absinthe or pastis?
They do demonstrate that, if you aren't careful, the hydrocarbons etc won't mix with the alcohol if it contains too much water.
The OP seems not to grasp this.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: alancalverd on 05/10/2021 13:15:29
Hence

Shaken, not stirred.

Bonehead.....James Bonehead

Is that a Glock 43 with auxiliary laser, or do you need medical attention?

Hey, anyone can write this stuff!
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/10/2021 13:32:00
Hey, anyone can write this stuff!
And nobody should.
Title: Re: Ethanol fuel is the way to go
Post by: Liaata on 06/10/2021 16:45:33
I feel like someone it going to ruin their engine...