[Just thinking (OP)]

Kitchen experiments don't really cut the ice.

They do better than your "shouting loudly but being wrong".

Still not cutting the ice.

[Just thinking (OP)]

With alcohol in the fuel, any water still settles to the bottom.
You really need to pay attention.

Look I found more the internet is flooded with what I already know. LOOK at the big red arrow. [ Invalid Attachment ]

What point did you think you were making?
I have been repeatedly making the distinction between the very dry ethanol that will mix with petrol and the 96% alcohol which will not.

Essentially everyone over 18 knows that you can mix alcohol and water.
But you seem not to have noticed that you were talking about hydrocarbons as a fuel (which is what I referred to) and alcohol as an additive.

No, you seem to have missed the point it's all about the saturation point of the alcohol please stay on Chanel.

[Just thinking (OP)]

I will try and make it a little bit more simple

You made it wrong.
If there's a little water in the tank and you add E10 petrol you will get two layers. The bottom layer will be water with some alcohol in it.
That will stop the engine

With alcohol in the fuel, any water still settles to the bottom.
You really need to pay attention.

You really need to use dry alcohol otherwise it just won't work. If the alcohol is dry it will hold water you have started off behind the 8 ball. When I have a shower I tend to use a dry towel it works better.

Yes.

What you seem to fail to grasp is that, when you have used the towel, it is no longer dry.
When you add water to the towel, it doesn't work so well.
When you add water to the E5 fuel, it doesn't work so well.
What happens is that you then have wet alcohol and it settles out of solution (as shown by actual experiment).
That stops the engine.

You are funny it's all about the saturation point. Towels hold water, Alcohol holds water I worked out the towel thing before I went to school and the alcohol thing in first class.

[Bored chemist]

No, you seem to have missed the point it's all about the saturation point of the alcohol

As you pointed out, you can't "saturate" alcohol with water; they are miscible in any proportions.
Please pay attention to what you are trying to tell those of us who already know it.

[Bored chemist]

The point is you said the ethanol will not hold water

No I did not.
If you think I did, quote it.

[Just thinking (OP)]

You made it wrong.
If there's a little water in the tank and you add E10 petrol you will get two layers. The bottom layer will be water with some alcohol in it.
That will stop the engine

No the ethanol and the water will be buoyant in the petrol that means the water will not flood the bottom of the tank that's why it works.

[Bored chemist]

I worked out the towel thing before I went to school and the alcohol thing in first class.

What you "worked out" about alcohol is wrong.
If you add water to E5 fuel it separates out.
How little water you can dissolve depends on temperature.
In cold weather it's less than 0.1%
You can't rely on that to remove water from a .tank

[Bored chemist]

No the ethanol and the water will be buoyant in the petrol

You keep ignoring reality.
I showed a picture  that shows it sinks.
It's not buoyant.

Please stop posting your hallucinations as if they are facts.

[Just thinking (OP)]

As you pointed out, you can't "saturate" alcohol with water; they are miscible in any proportions.
Please pay attention to what you are trying to tell those of us who already know it.

The point here is the saturation point when combined with the petrol the water will separate from the ethanol if there is too much water. Why the petrol will dilute the ethanol but not the water. This is the point of over saturation. Stay on channel now.

[Just thinking (OP)]

What you "worked out" about alcohol is wrong.
If you add water to E5 fuel it separates out.
How little water you can dissolve depends on temperature.
In cold weather it's less than 0.1%
You can't rely on that to remove water from a .tank

So now you admit it works and you are starting to get it the ethanol works to get rid of the water before the water has a chance to build up to the point that you have stated. See it works no more water flooding the bottom of the tank. Well done.

[Just thinking (OP)]

Please try not sending 6x posts all at once it gets a bit overwhelming. One at a time and I will do my very best to respond.

[Just thinking (OP)]

In cold weather it's less than 0.1%

I just thought I would point out what you have stated there 0.1% is 1000 litres of water in 999,000 litres of petrol.

[Bored chemist]

So now you admit it works

it 99.9% doesn't work.

[Bored chemist]

In cold weather it's less than 0.1%

I just thought I would point out what you have stated there 0.1% is 1000 litres of water in 999,000 litres of petrol.

Why?
The point remains, there should be no water and if there is, it hardly matters if what settles out has some alcohol in it.

[Bored chemist]

Please try not sending 6x posts all at once it gets a bit overwhelming. One at a time and I will do my very best to respond.

Is that why you missed this point?

No the ethanol and the water will be buoyant in the petrol

You keep ignoring reality.
I showed a picture  that shows it sinks.
It's not buoyant.

Please stop posting your hallucinations as if they are facts.

[Just thinking (OP)]

Why?
The point remains, there should be no water and if there is, it hardly matters if what settles out has some alcohol in it.

Water in alcohol is a temporary bond water and alcohol in petrol is a temporary bond The point is that the bond lasts long enuff for the water to be ingested into the engine this means that the water will not accumulate instead it will be consumed as it is introduced to the system. If we were to put say 1 or 2 litres of water in the fuel tank the principal will be overcome and fail but we are talking a very small amount of water that can be managed. I hope this clarifies my point of view.

[Just thinking (OP)]

Is that why you missed this point?
Quote from: Bored chemist on Yesterday at 23:30:10

    Quote from: Just thinking on Yesterday at 23:24:27

        No the ethanol and the water will be buoyant in the petrol

    You keep ignoring reality.
    I showed a picture  that shows it sinks.
    It's not buoyant.

    Please stop posting your hallucinations as if they are facts.

No, I did comment back on that experiment and I made the comment that it is not petrol and you commented back by saying it is close to the makeup of petrol.

[Bored chemist]

you commented back by saying it is close to the makeup of petrol.

And, because I'm right- you need to address the reality; the stuff settles quickly.

Water in alcohol is a temporary bond water and alcohol in petrol is a temporary bond The point is that the bond lasts long enuff

The lifetime of the bonds is of the order of ten to the minus a dozen or more seconds.

The two phases start to separate out within a second.

we are talking a very small amount of water that can be managed. I hope this clarifies my point of view.

Your point of view seems to be a moveable feast.
You now seem to be saying that, as long as there's not much water- not enough to form a separate layer- then it won't matter much.
That's obviously true.
But, if there's little or no water then the addition of ethanol to fuel can't be about water- which is what your opening post was wrong about.

This claim

The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water

Is still nonsense.

And so is this

And one more point do you think they put ethanol in petrol just to keep the greens happy NO maybe it's because of the water.

You have made two separate stupid assertions there
Yes they put the ethanol in to keep the greens happy- even though they have to subsidise it with lower tax to do so.  They are trying to get the green vote.

If they wanted to address the water problem, they would use isopropanol.
Partly because it's cheaper than ethanol.
Partly because it's got a higher energy density.
But mainly because, unlike ethanol, it does a good job of increasing the solubility of water in gasoline.

So, if you were right, why would they use the wrong alcohol?
Do you think they are stupid?

[Just thinking (OP)]

But, if there's little or no water then the addition of ethanol to fuel can't be about water- which is what your opening pots was wrong about.

The thing is if there is only a very small amount of water let's say 100 ml to a full tank of petrol that is not enuff water in the tank to be picked up with the addition of the alcohol as the car is in motion that little bit of water will mix and be picked up in very small amounts this gets rid of the water before more water becomes introduced to the system. Without the alcohol present, the water will accumulate leading to an amount that will get sucked up into the fuel line. The fact is that with alcohol in the system it will assist the water in becoming mixed with the aid of motion.

[Just thinking (OP)]

Yes they put the ethanol in to keep the greens happy-

This is the main part of the problem the ethanol will assist in the mixing of water to the point that it still works the ethanol will break up the water into very small beads allowing it to pass through the system when the vehicle is in motion.