[Petrochemicals (OP)]

This must be an odd definition of 'subsidy', both natural gas and coal power are uneconomic compared to the unsubsidized price of solar and wind power in the UK. At the moment at least, increased use of solar and wind reduce the cost of electricity.

That certainly wasn't historically true not even a few years ago, but it is right now.

I'm afraid money rules, if renewable where economically superior we would have converted to them already.

You couldn't sell renewables to the existing grid if they were the only source of electricity. The renewables suppliers would have to build a week's storage to guarantee supply as contracted to the retailers, which would increase the price of the product significantly. Therefore fossil fuels are subsidising renewables.

How long do fossil fuel suppliers guarantee supply?
How does the subsidy work?

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
The world has set the goal to zero emission and carbon neutrality. Sooner or later it will happen. You can't prevent it. You can only postpone it.

The subsidy works via the government taxing oil fueled cars and giving it to electric vehicles that are produce more carbon than ICEs, subsidising wind farms and solar installations that may not recoup the carbon that took to create them.

No one is trying to "prevent " low carbon. If it was economically superior it would be happening already.

[hamdani yusuf]

I'm afraid money rules, if renewable where economically superior we would have converted to them already.

It will in a few years, and the progress is exponential.

[hamdani yusuf]

The subsidy works via the government taxing oil fueled cars and giving it to electric vehicles that are produce more carbon than ICEs, subsidising wind farms and solar installations that may not recoup the carbon that took to create them.

Not giving the subsidy can only postpone the progress, and more people will be affected by pollution created by running combustion engines on the streets.
Once renewable energy is large enough to support their own manufacturing process, those solar installation and wind farm don't release much carbon to the atmosphere any longer.

[hamdani yusuf]

No one is trying to "prevent " low carbon. If it was economically superior it would be happening already.

All good things take time.

Many people believe that the global electrical grid will collapse as Tesla and other EVs come online. I decided to run the numbers and determine if this is actually true. Using California in 2016 as my test case, I worked through the math and came up with a result that might surprise you

[alancalverd]

How long do fossil fuel suppliers guarantee supply?

Before Margaret Thatcher destroyed the UK coal industry the strategic reserve (i.e. recoverable fuel within these islands) was about 200 years' worth. It is now guaranteed by not openly defending Ukraine against Russian aggression and not criticising Saudi Arabian executions of journalists, so there is no guarantee. Winston Churchill promoted the change from coal to oil for shipping on the presumption that the UK would always have access to Iraq,  but the Bush/Halliburton Corporation now owns it thanks to Tony Blair's support of their invasion.

[alancalverd]

How does the subsidy work?

By using fossil fuels to cover the absence of storage, thus making unreliables profitable.

Not giving the subsidy can only postpone the progress,

There is no incentive for anyone to build the requisite storage. All that motivates any private company is short-term profit, and whilst politicians  can wave their green credentials by promoting electric vehicles and windmills (in which their in-laws have, of course, invested) there never will be. Five years is a long time in finance.

[Petrochemicals (OP)]

I'm afraid money rules, if renewable where economically superior we would have converted to them already.

It will in a few years, and the progress is exponential.

Exponential,

Exponenciala_priklad.png (3.99 kB . 398x364 - viewed 1761 times)

No one is trying to "prevent " low carbon. If it was economically superior it would be happening already.

All good things take time.

So do bad things, so we must be stumbling around for decades in the dark until realising the reality someone has pulled the wool over our eyes

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal#:~:text=On%2012%20January%202017%2C%20the,limits%2C%20undetected%20by%20the%20usual

[alancalverd]

Renault issued press statements reaffirming their vehicles' compliance with all regulations and legislation for the markets in which they operate in 2015.

Note the careful wording. The entire "scandal" is a case of smart-arse legislators being caught by their own cleverness and complaining about it. If you prescribe a very specific acceptability test for a product with a wide range of possible performance, you have no right to complain if the product meets that specification but no other. Here's an old story that gets trotted out at purchaser specification meetings:

Man wants to make a new door frame. This usually consists of about  16 pieces of wood of specific thicknesses, cut to mitre angles. So our hero calculates what he wants and specifies each piece to  ± 0.05 mm and ± 0.05°. Hands specification sheet to a timber merchant who promises to have it ready in 24 hours. Next day he collects the bundle and is horrified to discover it is composed of bits of knotty pine, green ash, plywood, willow, and whatever else the good Lord chooses to call a tree, twisted, crossgrain, sawn, bodged..... Shop assistant produces a ruler, shows that each piece of crap is exactly the size and shape specified, and demands payment.

As he wonders how to complain, a woman walks in and presents a ticket. Assistant hands over a beautiful piece of polished seasoned oak, 8 x 24  x 1 inch, with radiused edges and a neat hole in each corner. Bloke says "what did she order?" Shop assistant says "a seat for her kids' swing".

The moral: tell the manufacturer what you want, not how clever you are.

[wolfekeeper]

I'm afraid money rules, if renewable where economically superior we would have converted to them already.

It will in a few years, and the progress is exponential.

Exponential,

At this point I'm assuming you're just here to troll all of us.

While an exponential decay is indeed an exponential, this is what the worldwide solar power looks like on a semilog graph:

[hamdani yusuf]

Before Margaret Thatcher destroyed the UK coal industry the strategic reserve (i.e. recoverable fuel within these islands) was about 200 years' worth.

By your standard, solar energy is guaranteed for more than 4 billion years.

[hamdani yusuf]

EV or Gas, What Pollutes More?

A lot of misinformation out there about pollution generated by Electric Vehicles, I spent over a year researching this and was shocked to find out what actually goes into producing the gas we burn in our cars every day.

[Petrochemicals (OP)]

EV or Gas, What Pollutes More?

A lot of misinformation out there about pollution generated by Electric Vehicles, I spent over a year researching this and was shocked to find out what actually goes into producing the gas we burn in our cars every day.

Electric.

[Petrochemicals (OP)]

I'm afraid money rules, if renewable where economically superior we would have converted to them already.

It will in a few years, and the progress is exponential.

Exponential,

At this point I'm assuming you're just here to troll all of us.

While an exponential decay is indeed an exponential, this is what the worldwide solar power looks like on a semilog graph:

At this point I think you must have scant interlect, selectively cherry picking and antagonistic to further your point or are insultingly slobbish, considering I started the thread. Considering the gas demand seems to be in Europe, during the winter, the solar argument just doesnt make sense.

This graph is mobile phone ownership, true viability, it starts low exponentially rise and then levels off at saturation, unlike the solar installation "exponential" of long and drawn out rise never reaching saturation, peaking and troughing like a whale in the shallows, or is fairly predictable as in your graph.

mobixsubscr_2008x20_800x574.png (5.81 kB . 800x574 - viewed 2323 times)
Europe solar installation

500px-Electricity_production_capacities_for_solar_power_in_EU-27,_2000-2019_(MW) (1).png (65.62 kB . 500x274 - viewed 2295 times)

[hamdani yusuf]

Electric.

Are you feeling threatened?

[Petrochemicals (OP)]

Electric.

Are you feeling threatened?

Are you feeling illogical

[hamdani yusuf]

Electric.

Are you feeling threatened?

Are you feeling illogical

The points shown in the video seems reasonable to me. You just denied them without saying any reason. Have you watched it yet?
Some media, and even researchers, have shown bias against electrification of transportation. Closer scrutiny often found economical conflict of interest. Some of their income (advertisings, research grants) comes from oil and gas companies, or ICE car manufacturers. That's why I asked if you felt threatened, partially due to your nickname.

[Petrochemicals (OP)]

Electric.

Are you feeling threatened?

Are you feeling illogical

The points shown in the video seems reasonable to me. You just denied them without saying any reason. Have you watched it yet?
Some media, and even researchers, have shown bias against electrification of transportation. Closer scrutiny often found economical conflict of interest. Some of their income (advertisings, research grants) comes from oil and gas companies, or ICE car manufacturers. That's why I asked if you felt threatened, partially due to your nickname.

I only just watched it and now totally concur that my car produces 20,000,000 kegillionsquillion kilowatts because of petrol being bad.

Electric vehicles greeness is judged by supporters as a variable thing, apparently in Poland they are worse for the environment as they use coal for electric generation, yet in Iceland they are good. The problem is iceland has a mopulation at least 100 times smaller than  Poland, which is representative of the vast majority of Earth's conditions

[alancalverd]

I'm all for the electrification of transport. Underground railways and trolleybuses are great, and electric cars are terrific fun to drive.But we don't have (and can't have) enough electricity from non-fossil sources to abandon gasoline, diesel, and gas-generated electricity to meet current and predicted demand. 

[Bored chemist]

I'm all for the electrification of transport. Underground railways and trolleybuses are great, and electric cars are terrific fun to drive.But we don't have (and can't have) enough electricity from non-fossil sources to abandon gasoline, diesel, and gas-generated electricity to meet current and predicted demand. 

And when the oil runs out, we won't have gasoline and diesel.
So we had better start planning to decarbonise the economy now, while we still can.

[Petrochemicals (OP)]

I'm all for the electrification of transport. Underground railways and trolleybuses are great, and electric cars are terrific fun to drive.But we don't have (and can't have) enough electricity from non-fossil sources to abandon gasoline, diesel, and gas-generated electricity to meet current and predicted demand. 

Fun is not efficient nor environmental.