Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => Complementary Medicine => Topic started by: Jolly2 on 18/03/2020 16:21:22
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Apparently China had good results fighting Corona virus using Chinese herbal medicines.
I thought it might be a good idea to create a forum to share any related information....
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I hope they don't make it from pangolin scales ever again...
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Chinese medicine is a collection of knowledge across the chinese civilization, and medicine should not be a place for prejudices, cult leaders, partisan and national politics.
In particular, NOT on a science forum.
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China and Hong Kong indeed used a combined approach of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and modern western medicine to treat covid-19, and they applied the WHO's anti-pandemic approach with great success.
Unfortunately, there is a great deal of prejudices and politicisation mainly created by Trump, thus obscuring what actually happened in eastern countries successful in containing the virus to their detriment.
The containment results of China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and Singapore are quite extra-ordinary in that the death rates are minuit in comparison even to the most successful western countries like Germany.
Look at the deaths stats by country (yesterday, 2 days ago) in https://www.worldofmeters.com/coronavirus
(n.b. the statistics are far more detailed using an Android mobile than on a Windows PC)
I would be very interested to know the details.
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It is "interesting" to consider the idea that TCM- which hasn't changed much in centuries, suddenly "knew" how to deal with a new virus.
The bits of traditional medicine which worked are now called "medicine".
Or, if you prefer, "There is medicine which works, and there is 'alternative' medicine".
It's a bit like Trump's Press officer giving "alternative facts".
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TCM are techniques and medicines collected in the Chinese Civilisation. It wasn't developed through an institutional approach as in the west. The 2 situations have different strengths and weaknesses.
In modern China, TCM is supported by government to get organised and subject to modern scientific evaluation and integration into western medical practice.
Clearly, the double blind trial has many limitations leading to non-acceptance of many medicines & practices. This does not mean they are ineffective.
For example, there is a lot of scepticism against accupuncture, yet time & time again, the technique cured many very chronic conditions for a lot fo people. Just because the mechanics of a cure/method is not understood, it should not be rejected as ineffective.
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Clearly, the double blind trial has many limitations leading to non-acceptance of many medicines & practices. This does not mean they are ineffective.
That is more or less exactly what it does mean.
Strictly, it means they are no more effective than a placebo.
However, since many of them are more hazardous - or environmentally offensive -than other placebos, they should not be used.
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The Double Blind Trial is a particular statistical sampling technique whereby, the treatment being tested can be applied to 2 populations with equal conditions, and one is treated and the other not.
There are several serious limitations with this, for example:-
[1] when the condition of not being treated has serious consequences, which thus limit who may belong to the populations; By voluntarily choosing to be in the trial population, then in itself is a biased sample. . . .
[2] when a specific condition has wide variation and or is very rare , then it becomes virtually impossible to get a trial at all;
and various others;
Hence, the Double Blind Trial is the Rolls Royce of medical trials, but not having a true Double Blind Trial does not invalidate a treatment.
Ask yourself in this small situation in Hong Kong. One day, I had a stomach pain. My mother's servant suggested a well known TCM oitment which claims to treat a very wide variety of conditions. In absence of anything else, I accepted the treatment and presto it worked immediately - went to the toilet, let out some air and the pain was gone.
If I had the attitude that it should not be used because there has been no double blind trial, then I would have had to bare the pain much longer, whereas, anedotally, everyone in Hong Kong uses the oitment for a wide variety of things.
Look at the life expectancy statistics. Hong Kong has higher life expectancy than even Japan!
Look at the covid-19 death statistics. It is among the world's best few countries.
Hong Kong imports a lot of food from China and we are not dying from that well publicised poison foods from China.
They are doing a lot of things right even though it is difficult to pin point the set of things which makes it so.
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It is "interesting" to consider the idea that TCM- which hasn't changed much in centuries, suddenly "knew" how to deal with a new virus.
The bits of traditional medicine which worked are now called "medicine".
Or, if you prefer, "There is medicine which works, and there is 'alternative' medicine".
It's a bit like Trump's Press officer giving "alternative facts".
In Chinese society, there's a lot of folk knowledge about TCM, and one of the things they emphasise are foods that combat inflammation. (Can't get away from food in Chinese society!)
I expect anti-inflammation was the key aspect which TCM contributes to prevent cases from getting worse. There was a peer reviewed published paper on specific Chinese medicines (with their chemical names) quite early on in the epidemic from Chinese doctors.
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It is important to distinguish between the observed fact that some plants contain chemicals which can sometimes be used as drugs (subject to proper testing) on one hand and
pseudo religious hogwash on the other.
Traditional Chinese medicine is killing rhinos.
All the evidence shows they are doing so for no good reason.
But they still think the important thing is that a rhino horn looks like a dick.
I think they should get a mirror.
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Bored Chemist, Looks to me you are bored with science and you are now rambling on with prejudices.
Get off that bottle man!
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine#Critique
"There is no scientific evidence for traditional Chinese concepts such as qi, meridians, and acupuncture points.[a] The TCM theory and practice are not based upon scientific knowledge, and there is disagreement between TCM practitioners on what diagnosis and treatments should be used for any given person"
There is no science in TCM for me to be bored of.
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Look at the life expectancy statistics. Hong Kong has higher life expectancy than even Japan!
Well, seeing that Japan has high suicide rate...
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Bored Chemist, Looks to me you are bored with science and you are now rambling on with prejudices.
In what way is he "rambling on with prejudices"?
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Hello...Please do Forgive me for nosing into your OP.
🙏
(It just seems too irresistible to resist, Sorry!)
Apparently China had good results fighting Corona virus using Chinese herbal medicines.
I thought it might be a good idea to create a forum to share any related information....
Yes!
I'm Simply going to repeat the same BS rhetoric that You keep coming across in most responses...
☹️
Apologies in advance!
But...where is the DATA?
🤔
Where are the STATS?
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Yup!
U guessed it correct...
E?V?I?D?E?N?C?E?
😑
P.S. - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall
✌️
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So Zero, you have no information about the use of TCM in treating covid-19.
Why did you bother talking about it then? It's a waste of time!
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So Zero, you have no information about the use of TCM in treating covid-19.
Why did you bother talking about it then? It's a waste of time!
Asking a question such as
where is the DATA?
orWhere are the STATS?
is not a waste of time.
Asking and answering questions is how science works.
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Also, Science works by doing experiments. To test which "Answers" actually work
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So Zero, you have no information about the use of TCM in treating covid-19.
Why did you bother talking about it then? It's a waste of time!
Neither Do You!
Please Stop wasting Your time & Ours by posting Propaganda without Evidence & Do Not misassume US to be a bunch of Fools!
P.S. - Repeating the same Experiment again & again & again...
& Expecting a Different Result is..
1N5AN1TY.
🙏