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General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: qpan on 28/09/2004 18:07:17

Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: qpan on 28/09/2004 18:07:17
How come guns aren't banned in the USA like in the UK or the majority(all?) of europe?
Surely the US would be a safer place if guns were outlawed?

"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: neilep on 28/09/2004 19:07:34
Don't you american chums have this 'freedom to bear arms' thingy written down somewhere ?

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Corbeille on 28/09/2004 21:33:59
The second amendment of the American constitution states that;

 "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed".
 
The word militia is important. When the amendment was written it meant a body of men who could be called up to defend their country and  the right to "bear arms" was provided to maintain weapons skills
for those members of the militia.

So not very relevant with today's professional army even if  the English monarch decides to invade again because he can't go fox hunting instead.

"The right of the people" is guaranteed to raise passions regardless of where it is used.

The USA would certainly be a safer place if guns were banned but this would be difficult as millions of guns are in circulation. A firearms ban in the UK was successful as there were not as many legally held guns in circulation as in the US. The UK government took the opportunity and had public support to do so after the Dunblane massacre. The Home Office had a register of all "legally" held guns and compensated the owners financially.

In the US the gun manufacturers are too rich and too powerful. A presidential candidate need squillions of dollars to win a campaign and will have to represent the interests of his funders when he gets into office. The arms manufacturers donate heavily to candidates and senators and get their interests (profits) protected. The NRA will tell us that "guns don"t kill people - people do" which is total baloney but while they pay the piper......


you can't crack me I'm a rubber duck!
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: deweys hamster on 28/09/2004 21:49:26
switzerland is one european country where guns are legal.  i got the following site by googling
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/wallstreet.html
the concluding statement of this site is
 
quote:
The bottom line is one of attitude. Populations with training in civic virtue, though armed, generally do not experience sensational massacres or high crime rates. Switzerland fits this mold. But the United States does not. As H. Rap Brown declared in the 1960s, "Violence is as American as apple pie."

Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: tweener on 28/09/2004 21:51:36
Banning guns will not make anywhere safer - it'll just ensure that the criminals are the only ones with guns.  For example, there are entire classes of drugs that are quite illegal, but that does not stop people from obtaining them.  It just makes them more expensive and lower quality.

There is a strong body of evidence that crime rates increase whenever there is a general ban on weapons.  I believe this is true in the UK also.  Conversely, when the ban is lifted, the crime rate goes back down.

If 30% of the population carried a gun, how many criminals would be plying their craft?  (This does not apply to fanatical suicide bomber types who don't care).

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: OmnipotentOne on 28/09/2004 22:55:55
hahaha gotta love the second amendment!  I guess it might be a better place but there still would be issues if we banned them.  But all the southern folk wouldnt take to kindly to it, probably brandishing there baby as they walk on washington.  

It confuses me how fully automatics can be considered as hunting weapons.

And also how awkward it is that you can literally buy rocket launchers, M4's, gattling guns, and pen guns on this site  www.gunsamerica.com  But of course strictly for memorbelia only[;)]

To see a world in a grain of sand.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: neilep on 28/09/2004 23:51:05
Ben Hur loves guns doesn't he ?

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: roberth on 29/09/2004 00:04:10
In Australia it's illegal to own a gun unless you are a registered hunter or gun club member. Then, the type of weapon able to be owned is severly restricted. It's now even illegal to carry a knife or blade unless you have a good reason. I hate guns !! I don't care what the NRA says, guns are designed to kill people, particularly hand guns. These are banned here, so only the police, the military and the criminals have them. I'm still undecided whether the banning of guns reduces crime. Crimes with guns have certainly reduced since the ban was introduced, but it is offset by increases in other types of violent crime.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: qpan on 29/09/2004 00:42:45
Yes, I hate guns too. In the UK it is also illegal to carry a knife with a blade longer than 3 inches.

Tweener, banning guns will make a place safer. In the UK, there is very little gun crime as there are very few illegal firearms in circulation. Guns are extremely dangerous weapons and are, as roberth said, designed to kill people.

If you "ban" guns while there are still a large supply of illegal firearms available, then fair enough, crime will go up as criminals will have guns while the public do not. However, if you ban guns outright and do a good enough job to ensure that there are very few illegal guns around, then basically no one has guns and crime goes significantly down. I'd rather a robber tried robbing a bank armed with a knife rather than a gun, i'd tell you that now. And i bet a robber would think twice about robbing a bank armed with only a knife.

"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Corbeille on 29/09/2004 19:46:00
Quite true that banning guns would mean any remaining guns would be possessed by criminals but the US has a problem with killings using legally held guns.
The guns that killed JFK, King, Lennon and students at Columbine were legal. In the UK the spree killings at Dunblane and Hungerford were carried out with legally held weapons.
 A ban on guns would go a long way to preventing ordinary people seeing the red mist and killing someone in a fit of rage. Any of us are capable of it. Children wouldn't play with their father's gun and injure or kill themselves. However with so many guns in circulation, many people will hang on to one illegally for self defense. It would take something massively tragic for public attitudes to change.

Anyway, the question was why aren't they banned in the US? and the answer is "it's everybody's right to have one"





you can't crack me I'm a rubber duck!
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: neilep on 29/09/2004 20:26:41
Ban them or not...they'll ALWAYS be a black market for guns, drugs....glucose tablets !!..what ever......

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: george on 04/10/2004 08:40:32
Terrorism is banned in the UK, but that didn;t stop the IRA... I agree with Neilp - banning things usually creates the greatest inconvenience for law abiding people, and the least for those acting illicitly.

And in relation to the USA's rather bizarre take on guns, if everyone having the right to have one is causing the problem, why not take away the right for everyone to have one ?

If atomic bombs were written into the constitution, before someone realised that they might be dangerous, would you not ban those ? What is this business about the constitution. It's hundreds of years old. For a country that prides itself on being at the forefront of the world it seems rather over the top to obsess over a crappy old bit of paper written when times were totally different.

Geez. (oh god, I'm turning into an American, I'll be saying things suck next, like my vacuum cleaner...)
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: bezoar on 08/10/2004 00:46:27
Just that that crappy piece of paper helped make us the country we are today, and even though it's not perfect, seems to me a lot of people want to come here to visit and to live -- particularly some of those guys from the Middle East....
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Corbeille on 08/10/2004 19:39:51
The UK has no written constitution. Does that make it a better or worse place than the USA?

you can't crack me I'm a rubber duck!
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: neilep on 08/10/2004 20:26:51
quote:
Originally posted by Corbeille

The UK has no written constitution. Does that make it a better or worse place than the USA?

you can't crack me I'm a rubber duck!



Good question, I think it's impossible to say whether a place is better or worse to live , it's so subjective and you would probably have to live for a good length of time in every country to be in a position to answer that.....though for me,I suspect it's safe to say that I would prefer a 'westernised' country ......my opinion for me, myself...is that, if I had no family here...I'd probably want to emigrate somewhere...perhaps the states, Oz, Saturn !!

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: chris on 12/10/2004 15:02:10
Good idea Neil. You said you had a weight problem. In America you'd be considered anorexic. Make the move mate ! Easier than a diet any day !

C

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
 - Groucho Marx
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: bezoar on 15/10/2004 00:25:31
That's brilliant.  If you could just solve Neil's sleep problem.  Maybe if he moved here and lived in Las Vegas -- no one ever sleeps in that city.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: neilep on 15/10/2004 03:02:02
Packing my bags...on my way....Vegas is just west of London isn't it?..............by about 4000 miles or so ?....last time I was there I won 300 bucks...yayyy !!


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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Ylide on 15/10/2004 17:24:55
quote:
Originally posted by Corbeille

Quite true that banning guns would mean any remaining guns would be possessed by criminals but the US has a problem with killings using legally held guns.
The guns that killed JFK, King, Lennon and students at Columbine were legal. In the UK the spree killings at Dunblane and Hungerford were carried out with legally held weapons.
 A ban on guns would go a long way to preventing ordinary people seeing the red mist and killing someone in a fit of rage. Any of us are capable of it. Children wouldn't play with their father's gun and injure or kill themselves. However with so many guns in circulation, many people will hang on to one illegally for self defense. It would take something massively tragic for public attitudes to change.

Anyway, the question was why aren't they banned in the US? and the answer is "it's everybody's right to have one"



First of all, you need to look at some gun crime statistics before you say things like that.  You cited a few rare extreme cases as your examples.  Most gun injuries/deaths ARE caused by illegally possessed guns.  

In fact, you mention Columbine, those were illegally possessed guns.  They were purchased legally but then handed over to the kids who comitted the crime.  The only thing they bought themselves was the ammunition.  (which should have been technically not allowed as well)

Most (legal) gun owners are responsible, law-abiding citizens.  I promise you, going into a rage does not make you go for your gun.  Either you intend to kill someone or you do not.  Sure, a society with any guns will be safer...but we already have millions of guns here, that's just not going to happen.  

Canada has more guns per capita than we do, just so you know.  According to every gun control nut on the planet, they should have murder rates through the roof.

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: chris on 15/10/2004 18:54:31
mmm, but give an arsonist a box of matches and watch wha happens...

Chris

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
 - Groucho Marx
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: neilep on 15/10/2004 19:46:29
There are of course times when enraged people will do anything (law abiding or not)...and if a gun happens to be nearby then the 'moment of madness, flit of frenzy' thing might happen......surely we've all nearly been there !!..........but I have no doubt that 99.99% of gun owners are law abiding citizens as are 99.99% of non gun owners too.....chances are...if it wasn't a gun, it'll be a knife.......presumably it's the 'calculated intending to do harm to people' type person we should all be worrying about....what about those guys who went on sniping sprees in the US, if they could not get their hands on the arms they would have not been able to do those crimes, else they would have  used crossbows and sling shots, catapults etc...but yhey clearly intended to do harm..I wonder what they would have done without access to arms.

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: neilep on 15/10/2004 19:47:42
Just an after thought...can someone please tell me what the process is to be able to own a gun in Uncle Sam.

cheers

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Corbeille on 15/10/2004 21:45:43
So what is it about the American way of life that creates more deaths by shooting than countries with higher gun ownership? I'm not having a poke at gun owners here, there have been times when I wished I could have produced one, I'm just looking for an explanation.

you can't crack me I'm a rubber duck!
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Donnah on 16/10/2004 23:06:13
Why not make it mandatory for gun owners to complete a training program and a psychological profile?  In the licensing/registry database there should be a "fingerprint" for every gun.  Then law enforcers could do a computer search for a gun the same way they match fingerprints.

My son makes chain maille shirts (among other things) and is getting business from bar owners who want to protect their bouncers from knife attacks.  They are cooler and less bulky than flack jackets.  A sad statement of our society that it has come to that, but good for Steve's business.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: bezoar on 17/10/2004 13:01:20
I bought a gun once.  All I had to do was fill out some papers that essentially gave info on who and where I was, and that I didn't have a mental history.  Now I think you have to wait 48 hours for a criminal background check as well.  It's not at all difficult.  Every pawn shop has a good supply of guns.  There are tons of mail order catalogues.  And, as they say, guns don't kill, people do.  I guess over all, if you look at genetic bases of behavior, we are a country created by rebels, and maybe we inherently have a somewhat more volitile nature.
Generally speaking, I personally find the tendency toward violence goes hand in hand with youth, and a low intellect.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Ylide on 17/10/2004 13:24:38
quote:
Originally posted by Corbeille

So what is it about the American way of life that creates more deaths by shooting than countries with higher gun ownership? I'm not having a poke at gun owners here, there have been times when I wished I could have produced one, I'm just looking for an explanation.



My personal opinion is that it's based in our founding.  You see, America was originally colonized by religious puritans who were so stuck-up and stodgy that the BRITISH said "get out of here, please."  Like most religious extremists, they abhorred sexuality and curse words but had no problem with violence.  (especially against those not of their faith)  Our culture now is directly descended from this mode of thought...it is the reason that primetime television can show the brutalized mangled corpse of a dead prostitute on your average cop show and no one says boo, but god forbid you see a nipple.  Think of children.  

So, since mainstream entertainment cannot be racy in the way that the rest of the civilized world can, they have to make up for it with shooting, explosions, and killing.  Our kids are raised seeing multiple acts of violence on any given day of watching televsion.  In most well adjusted humans this isn't such a big deal, other than desensitizing us to it.  In less adjusted folks, especially ones that are not raised to respect the lives of others, this can result in a higher tendency to resort to violent crime.  

There was a study years ago, I cannot remember when or where it took place, but it involved taking subjects from American, European, Asian, and Middle-eastern cultures (don't recall exactly which ones) and showing them graphic images.  They were then told to rate their level of aversion/attraction to the images.  The images contained graphic nudity, sex, corpses, mutilations, guns, and some control pictures of food and stuff.  On average, the Americans and the Middle Easterners were more offended by the sex and nudity than by the violence.  On average, the Europeans and Asians were less offended by the nudity than by the violence.  I think this speaks volumes as to the effect of certain religions on culture when they are highly integrated.

Oh, and to Neil:  Gun ownership, while being a constitutional right, is mostly a state-run issue.  In some states, like New York and California, guns are registerd and licensed, and licenses issued are only after extensive police background checks.  In others, more conservative states like Colorado (where I live) and most Southern states, you can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun in 20 minutes.  You have to fill out a registration form from the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms) and get a quick telephone background check that makes sure you're not a felon.  You may not carry your gun concealed in most states, as well.  In New York, your license to own a gun is also your license to carry it, hence the extensive checking and registration.  In the majority of states, you must apply separately for a CCW (carry concealed weapons) permit and be subject to a background check by law enforcement who then amy or may not grant you the permit at their discretion.  Unless you live in a right-to-carry state, meaning they have a law stating that as long as you pass a background and mental health check and have the proper certification (usually an NRA class) they MUST issue you a carry permit.  There aren't very many of those, though...maybe 10-15 last I checked.

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Donnah on 17/10/2004 16:16:15
I agree that there is too much violence shown.  Last night I rented a PG (parental guidance) movie and within 10 minutes they showed a man sawing off someone's legs with a hacksaw.  That's when I hit the "off" button.

The problem that I have with nudity is that it is one sided.  We are bombarded with boobs, and they have no problem shoving a camera up a woman's vagina, but heaven forbid that a man's testacles be shown!  I heard (unconfirmed, but it would seem to be that way) that it is illegal in Canada to show pictures of erections in the magazine or movie (don't know about porn) industries.  That's what I call discrimination.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Ylide on 17/10/2004 20:40:12
See, you can't even show a boob in the US unless it's pay cable channels like HBO or an on-screen.  And on those channels, usually you won't see a dick, you'll see breasts and maybe a litle flash of pubic hair, same sexism as you mention.  It's still pretty prudish.  Mostly because of the NC-17 rating...if they allow too much nudity it will get rating NC-17 rather than R, which means teenagers (the primary market for cinema) can't go see it even WITH a parent.  

But yet you can show a severed head (and even make jokes with it) in a PG-13 or even PG movie.





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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: tweener on 19/10/2004 04:44:29
Neil,
To go a little further with the gun purchasing...  You can go to a "gun show", which is a convention of dealers, and buy whatever you see.  Cash, no paperwork, no names, no registration or record of any kind.  You can look in the newspaper classifieds and do the same from any private individual.

Felons are not allowed to posess guns, and usually get pretty stiff sentences if they are caught.

I believe that banning guns would be even more futile than banning drugs.  Cocaine and heroin (and many others) have been illegal for many many years, yet anyone who wants some can certainly get it pretty much anytime.  The real difference is that illegal drugs are not inspected and have no quality control.  So, the price is higher and the quality is lower and the prisons are full, with no reduction in the overall useage statistics.  

My idea of gun control is hitting what I aim at.  And I used to be quite good at that, though I'm rusty now and my eyes just aren't what they used to be.

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: roberth on 19/10/2004 05:36:21
So, the US Government fines TV companies for showing boobs on TV, has a futile war on drugs that they cannot win, that costs more than the war on terror, that is also proving difficult to win, and the citizens can go to a trade fair and buy a rocket launcher or uzi without any ID. Geez. I know I'm a child of the late fifties, but does "make love not war" seem to be lost within the US mindset. I know I'd prefer my kids to see Janet Jackson's boob than a head being lopped off with a chainsaw. I've got no issues with the USA, I think their role as the world watchdog on all things evil is important to world stability, but there seems to be some serious issues with priorities within the Government.
Canada, on the other hand...what can you say about a country that produces fine TV like the Naked News, my favourite late night news program.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Raedon on 19/10/2004 06:28:25
Actually I've got hand me down assult rifles from my grandfather.  

Now owning an assault rifle used to be illegal, but that ban is gone now.  

In the USA you can buy a useful hunting rifle, or a kinda useless handgun that is more for killing people.... or an assault rifle able to take out 100 animals in 30 seconds.  Like a Street Sweeper.. http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976486382.htm or the good ol' AK-47 http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976512779.htm

monkey hit wall.. wall real, monkey real.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Raedon on 19/10/2004 06:46:31
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

Just an after thought...can someone please tell me what the process is to be able to own a gun in Uncle Sam.



you need to be American.

  I walked into Wal-Mart at 14 and baught my first .22 long rifle with scope for $89.99 US; though you could buy cigarettes at any age back then.

  Mostly a hunting rifle is, "I'd like that one" a pistol is, "Fill out these forms, we will call you in 6 days." and now that the ban on assult rifles is gone, All you need is money to arm yourself with the most powerful weapons ever made.

good/bad?  The guns were already on the streets anyway just like anything else banned that people want.

monkey hit wall.. wall real, monkey real.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Raedon on 19/10/2004 10:51:23
quote:
Originally posted by Corbeille

So what is it about the American way of life that creates more deaths by shooting than countries with higher gun ownership?



Statistics are always good, from a 1999 look at this.

In 1999 there were 1776 gun deaths in the 0 through 17 age group and 3385 gun deaths in the 0 through 19 age group. By subtraction we find that there were a whopping 1609 gun deaths in just the 18 through 19 age group. Historically the 18 through 24 age group is the highest crime-committing group.

Suicides typically make up 56.5% of all gun deaths according to the Bureau Of Justice Statistics.

drugs and suicides account for more than 2 out of every 3 gun deaths in the USA.  

Basically more then half of the US death rate due to guns could be stopped if people didn't point them at themselves.

Actually the numbers are quite low compared to death from smoking or drinking.  Those two dwarf all other forms of preventable death.

Is there tobacco and booze in the UK? :D  I sure hope so!  Booooze...

monkey hit wall.. wall real, monkey real.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Ylide on 23/10/2004 02:02:59
Owning an assault rifle wasn't illegal, even during the gun ban.  At the time the bill was passed, all existing guns that were categorized by the bill were grandfathered.  So, you could realistically go to a gun store and buy an AR15 or AK47 with all the "naughty" parts banned by the bill.  Hell, you could even buy a pre-ban receiver and add anything you wanted to it.  All the loss of the bill did was allow the addition of cosmetic components that make the gun look scary.  

I own two assault rifles currently...an AR15 (basically a semi-automatic derivative of the military M16) and an SKS.  (a derivative of the AK47)  I bought them both during the ban.  You know what the passing of the ban allows me to do now?  Put bayonets on them and use magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.  (which I could do anyway as magazines were grandfathered too, I just had to buy older ones)  Oh, the horror!

The only thing that non-military (read: not automatic) assault rifles have going for them is being semi-automatic.  They fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.  Most hunting rifles fire bigger rounds with more muzzle velocity, but generally have a closed bolt and can't be rapid fired.  The tradeoff is rate of fire for accuracy and power.  It still kills things just as effectively as an assault weapon, if not more so.  

The ban is gone, it did nothing anyway, let's all move on with our lives.  It's not like assault-rifle-wielding maniacs were going to obey the law until the ban was lifted.  



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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: roberth on 23/10/2004 15:53:56
Y'now canna..sorry, ylide, I read your post and it just makes me sad. Why the hell would you want to own those?
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Ylide on 24/10/2004 11:43:25
I think a better question is why WOULDN'T you want to own them.  =)  

Seriously though, I have them partly because target shooting has a very zen-like quality and partly because I like the machismo of it.  If you've never fired a gun before, you couldn't possibly understand.  Let me clarify that I, like most gun owners in America, have never even pointed a gun at another human being.  I don't hunt, either.  But, when it comes right down to it, I'd rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them.  I don't know what gun laws are like in Australia, but unless you've grown up with guns and understand them, it's natural to be skittish of them.  

I own a .45 for home defense.  If someone comes into my residence with intentions on robbing or harming myself or my loved ones, I will not cower in fear. I will not call the police with hopes that they save me in time...I'll call them to let them know they have a body to pick up.  

My rifles, well, I don't think I'll ever NEED them unless our next election goes into the ****ter and civil war breaks out.  It most likely will never come to that, but I'm keeping 'em around just in case.  Think of it as the gun version of Pascal's wager.  

Radeon summed it up pretty nicely:  there are a lot worse things out there than guns that are far more likely to kill you.  The assault rifles just look scary so they get more attention.  Even then, well over 90% of gun deaths in the US are from pistols or shotguns.

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Corbeille on 24/10/2004 15:21:38
I don't think I'll ever NEED them unless our next election goes into the ****ter and civil war breaks out. It most likely will never come to that, but I'm keeping 'em around just in case.

Eek!   I'm worried now, who will be fighting who in the next civil war?  What side should we support?

Nah pop no style, a strictly roots!
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Raedon on 24/10/2004 17:08:07
quote:
Originally posted by Corbeille


Eek!   I'm worried now, who will be fighting who in the next civil war?  What side should we support?




Texas, We are already set up with a civil government and police force seperate from the US, just in case of civil or devistating War on US soil.

  Personally There are only three things worth fighting for in the world..  Family, your land (not talking fighting a war for ***), your ideals and they all hold the same importance.

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: roberth on 25/10/2004 00:48:32
Well, I think you've just confirmed my argument, Ylide. The mere fact that you have these guns, if a nasty situation arose, would lead to a more violent ending than if you didn't have them. I would (and have) eject unwanted people from my house without the need to shoot them. I'd stand between my family and any aggressor and I sure wouldn't shoot anybody over any ideals that I may hold dear.
I have used guns before, I just couldn't see any sense in continuing their use.
Basically, the gun laws in Australia were changed (tightened) after a shooting incident a few years ago. You need a licence and can't get a pistol, semi/automatic, pump action shotgun, any assault type gun unless you have a damn good reason.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Raedon on 25/10/2004 01:13:00
by ideas I mean freedom.. Like why Iraq isn't all peaceful right now. It's not the States fault on that either, we just happen to be the ones doing the bully work while funds come in from Japan and the UK to help without getting their hands bloody with oil (little rant)

anyway..

  Lets say you knew a small group of ten to twenty men were busting into yours and other houses in your small town of one hundred or so people and taking families to a camp because you were.. ohh.. Jewish lets say.  Would a gun have been nice then?  Think a small town with some arms could have stopped them then organized a stand or went underground?

  The right to a gun in the States was something we were handed to protect us from the British and so families could protect themselves from Native Americans.

..

  I think you might be reading to much into this.  I have two pistols, both handed down to me by my grandfather and father and a 22 rifle I've had for 20 something years I used for target sport.  I've never killed a living thing with a gun, I shot the heck out of some cans and targets.

 I've caused more death with my car tires and small animals then anything else.

But if you came into my house and messed with my way of life yours would end... gun or not. period.

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Ylide on 25/10/2004 01:15:08
>>>I would (and have) eject unwanted people from my house without the need to shoot them

You say that like I pop a cap in every person that overstays their welcome.  

So what happens if the person breaking into your house has a weapon?  Or what if there is more than one person coming in?  In urban America, these things are not unheard of.  Or riots...even in nice calm Denver we have rioting every few years over things like police brutality and sporting events (yes the latter is stupid, but it happens) that invariably result in looting, assaults, and property damage.    

>>>I sure wouldn't shoot anybody over any ideals that I may hold dear.

What if those ideals are the right of you and your family to be alive?

I respect your right to passive resistance, but if someone tries to harm me or my loved ones in the sanctity of my home, it's their a$$.  I am not a violent person and I don't walk around armed, but until I have children, my guns stay right where they are.  

>>>Basically, the gun laws in Australia were changed (tightened) after a shooting incident a few years ago.

I can't say that I like Australia's gun ownership laws.  Legislating blanket gun control because of an isolated incident is overreaction.  The black market will supply guns to criminals with the right cash.  Restricting honest citizens from owning them doesn't make much sense to me.  Isn't Australia the same country that censors web site content that is deemed "objectionable?"  Those are our first two constitutional amendments...speech and gun ownership.  Apparently our founders had different priorities than did the founders of Australia.  


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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Raedon on 25/10/2004 01:41:32
Ylide has a good point.

 It's like when the UK banned Kava Kava, a safe herb for relaxation, because of 10 cases of liver damage and one death brought about by lobbying by the makers of Valium and Xanax.  

Yet Acedamenaphen (pain killer) causes houdreds of thousands of liver problems a year and is left on the market.

  It's almost like people don't see their rights getting pulled out from under them.. same in the States.. that Patriot Act was a big blow to everyone.. but I guess we still have Kava Kava herb and guns.. ehh.

  Think I'll just go drive fast and forget.  There really aren't that many problems in my world.

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: roberth on 25/10/2004 02:46:35
The changing of gun laws because of an isolated incident may have been an overreaction, but more than one had occurred in the period before. Criminals, or anyone else, can still get access to illegal guns, but there are a lot less in our communities generally.

I didn't mean to infer that you "pop a cap in every person that overstays their welcome" but I laughed when I read it.

There is also no censorship over web sites. Maybe there would be if they could, but all you have to do is have your site hosted elsewhere. Also don't forget, we have a population of only 20 million spread over an area the same as the mainland US.

Maybe our respective settlers had different agendas, but the sort of stuff you are both talking about just would not happen here. You can walk any street, anywhere, anytime without being afraid of some loopy idiot wanting to end your life. Well, I can anyway, 'cause they wont have a gun and I'm 196 cms and 115 kgs.

Clearly, our respective views are formed by our experiences in life, upbringing, environment, family, etc, but Australia is just not that unsafe that you feel the need to own a gun. The people that do own them probably don't feel the same way as me because of their lifestyle choices.

Australia is a democracy and our rights to everything but gun ownership are very similar to the US.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Raedon on 25/10/2004 04:04:44
quote:
Originally posted by roberth

 You can walk any street, anywhere, anytime without being afraid of some loopy idiot wanting to end your life. Well, I can anyway, 'cause they wont have a gun and I'm 196 cms and 115 kgs.






Actually I walk a mile every night at 9pm before the news.  I think you are generalizing the States as, "Tha Ghetto" when that just isn't so.  I, personally, have never seen Compton or a drive by. lol

  Where I live there have only been 8 murders this year and only 5 of those involved a gun and they ALL involved drugs.  but there have been worse years and better years.

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Raedon on 25/10/2004 04:44:04
Hunting is a way of life where I am.  It's a sport that a father teaches his son and daughter in Texas.  It's one of those things that make a family what it is.  A father doesn't just hand a gun to a kid and tell him to go flinging it around at anything that moves.  Before I was EVER handed a gun I was taught gun safety from like 6-10 or so with a Pellet rifle.  When I actually got the honor of shooting a live round at a practice range I had a strong respect for it as an instument of survival and sport.

  I know you see all those action movies or old westerns where people are just flailing around pistals, shooting them into the air but that isn't how it is for a middle class family that sport hunts.

 
I see guns as sport, be it hunting or target practice.  I keep a pistol, and I keep it loaded at my house.  I don't have any kids or a wife though.. just me.  If I had a kid or wife or.. crazy girlfriend I'd lock it up unloaded and forget about it.



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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: roberth on 25/10/2004 04:56:08
I wasn't meaning to generalise. We were chatting about guns when you guys bought up a couple of scenarios. I'm sure in most places the US is as safe as here (apart from the guns...hehe).
And I really like your car, too.

You snuck a post in before I could finish this one. You have a loaded pistol in your house? Not locked up? Why?
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Raedon on 25/10/2004 05:28:39
So if anyone touches my car I can pop a cap in their ass.. ;)

Seriously, because it's quite safe that way with the safety on and it isn't cocked.  When I throw a party or have anyone over that I don't know I put it in my gun safe.

 


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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: petersayles on 19/09/2005 21:04:10
Americans love guns mostly out of tradition I think. But there is no doubt we are a gun crazy nation.  Many people own guns because they think they need to protect their homes from criminals. Others because they don't trust the government and think they need a gun for when the revolution comes.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Simmer on 20/09/2005 22:02:17
Secretly I think a lot of people love guns, shooting stuff is fun and carrying a gun makes you feel pretty tough and dangerous.  The problem is other people's guns - they cancel out the toughness and leave only the danger!

But I don't think it is possible to ban them in the US - apart from political considerations there are so many available and so many would be hidden away by otherwise respectable citizens that the only people effectively disarmed for a hundred years would be the most law-abiding.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: VAlibrarian on 21/09/2005 02:08:45
Well, I am pretty well convinced that many of my fellow americans are nutcases. If I had not believed it fervently already, this thread would have convinced me of the fact.

The silly thing about those who purchase automatic weapons to protect themselves against criminals is that you can't carry around an AK47 to protect yourself. What good does it do you? Then when you go on vacation and some druggie busts into your house he walks away with a stolen AK and he can shoot whoever he wants whenever he wants. Criminals get to choose the time and place. You do not, so try walking around 24/7 with a loaded gun in your hand. It's asinine.
Maybe I will change my tune someday after I am murdered, right? Still, I hardly feel that I would be willing to blow away a criminal myself, so what would be the point of having a weapon? WIth my luck, one of my daughter's friends would find it and put a hole through his own head, and I would have the remaining thirty odd years of my life to regret it.

chris wiegard
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Corbeille on 21/09/2005 12:17:55
I wonder if gun sales will increase after Katrina?. Will people start to worry about hordes of dispossed roaming their streets after another disaster? If the government can't help the refugees in their own land then they will help themselves.

pass the ammo!







"They're all animals anyway. All the animals come out at night"
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: David Sparkman on 21/09/2005 19:13:32
I guess I will offer my two cents as well. American (and Canada) started with the extreme need for self-defense. Indian wars started within months of almost every new settlement. The Indians were constantly fighting with each other for land, slaves, insults, and loot. They did the friendly thing and invited the Europeans to join in.

An outgrowth of these wars was the concept of depending on yourself for your self-defense until the government could arrive to help. We called it the first line of defense. This concept has carried to the present day. Our law enforcement is not set up to offer the highest level of protection to its citizens. You must be prepared to defend yourself until help can arrive.

When the fourth airplane was hijacked, the hijackers were depending on the current doctrine of going along with a hijacking and getting the hijackers after the flight was again safely on the ground. A few made cell phone calls (against the regulations, but Americans often ignore stupid regulations) and found out about the other three hijackings. At that point they took matters into their own hands, over powered 3 hijackers and broke into the cockpit just as the 4th hijacker dove the plain into the ground - mission unaccomplished.

So back to guns. We have trial by jury i.e. our own peers decide whether to apply the law or, on rare instances to ignore the law. So some years ago, a guy is mugged on a subway. The criminals did not have a gun, but they had a long screwdriver with a sharpened end that could easily be a murder weapon. He shot them up, some of them with a vengeance after they were down and hurting. The jury convicted him for illegally having a gun; he was acquitted for shooting his attackers.

Juries acquit self-defense if you are truly an innocent. Gang wars don't get such a break. Most of the time, crimes are prevented when the victim simply shows he is armed. There are some politically incorrect statistics that show right to carry states have a lower crime rate for crimes committed with a weapon. You don't hold up a restaurant when it is likely 10% of the customers are carrying.

Likewise breaking into a house when people are sleeping inside is very risky. Personally, I have a 12-gauge shotgun for such a situation.

You Europeans have had it easy. Part of it has been that criminals haven't needed weapons to commit crimes. Part of it is that being nice has been so much a part of your culture. Now that the drug gangs are moving into Europe, and terrorists are surfacing, things may change a little if the criminals are more willing to use violence.

If you can't have a gun, and long knives are banned, buy yourself a good baseball bat, and learn how to use it. It is far more lethal than a knife: breaks bones, smashes skulls, ...

David
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Simmer on 21/09/2005 22:24:41
quote:
Originally posted by David Sparkman


If you can't have a gun, and long knives are banned, buy yourself a good baseball bat, and learn how to use it. It is far more lethal than a knife: breaks bones, smashes skulls, ...

David




A cricket bat would be equally effective and offers the choice of "stun" and "kill" (flat or edge).  [:D]
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: VAlibrarian on 21/09/2005 22:49:40
"Shawn of the Dead" was at least a bit funny with the cricket bat thing and the zombies.
I would rather not do any homicidal whacking or stomping with real people however, it's too grotesque. Better to give than receive, maybe. Better to avoid, definitely.

chris wiegard
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: David Sparkman on 22/09/2005 05:21:28
The main value of a weapon is deterance, but for that the aggressor needs to believe you know how to use it. But once the criminal decides to have a go at you, you don't stop until he can't hurt you anymore, not just when he pretends to give up. Don't ever loose your life trusting a criminal to keep his word.

David
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Corbeille on 22/09/2005 12:14:11
If you can't have a gun, and long knives are banned, buy yourself a good baseball bat,

got one!

and a nunchaka!






"They're all animals anyway. All the animals come out at night"
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: NLJB on 23/09/2005 22:33:54
It is called the constitution and yes we do have under the 2nd amendment the right to bear arms. The west (execpt most of CA), the south, and the North East (where I live and where I from) have VERY differnt cultures, in the West it is part of the culture, In my opinion America does not have the best governmental system: It was designed so that everything was checked and balanced: which is dysfunctinal (I'm not saying we should turn communist I'm saying the UK and other Euroean governments have the better idea (Exept for all the damn smoking) America would indeed be a safer place by banning guns, however with Presidents like the loathsome, hated, atrocious Bust: That's not likely to happen: I HATE BEING FRIGGIN AMERICAN- Peace

NLJB
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: NLJB on 23/09/2005 22:36:31
By CA I mean California

NLJB
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: NLJB on 23/09/2005 22:37:27
*Bush DAMN YOU TYPOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ARG

NLJB
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: sharkeyandgeorge on 03/10/2005 12:01:01
there seem too be some critisim of the uk for the reactionary way we banned guns but do you know why because a couple of years ago a guy who had his neighbors fill out the application forms so he could own rifles shotguns and pistols walked into a school gyn about twenty miles from where i sit now and proceeded to kill a dozen children thier teacher and himself all in under five minutes this was the primary school in dunblane and thomas hamilton the killer was a respected if abit aloof member of the communitty who managed to get several nieghbours to say he was a well balanced man and no threat back then our gun laws were far more stringent than americas and it still wasnt enough if you are a hunter you need a rifle but nobody ever needs pistols or shotguns

Giggidy Giggidy Goo
The philosopher Q man
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: drkev on 14/10/2005 12:53:38
Prohibition does not prevent something from being available to the criminal element. Gun crime it he UK has risen since the introduction of the ban on handguns.

Amnesties are just political knee jerk reactions to appease the general public.

All prohibition has done is remove guns from the hands of safe and responsible gun owners. Are criminals really going to hand in their guns? No they're not.

I like guns, I like shooting. Some people equate this with "I like killing people" but this isn't the case.

I am ex military and used to compete regularly in small arms competitions.

Many prohibited things are still used: drugs, driving without a licence etc makign something illegal does not make it go away. Dunblane was a very sad event and I still cry today when I hear about it on the television. Bowling for Columbine had some very interesting statistics.

Thousands or people are killed each year in the USA by guns. Only a handfull in any other country.

South Africa has horrific gun crime and they are bringing in tighter controls.

If something is legal then the government have some element of control over it.

We are now in a situation in the UK where 12 year old kids can pull a gun on you and "smoke you". There was a documentary called "Britain's toughest towns" and it showcased Manchester.

Gun crime is on the increase despite prohibtion. Law abiding gun owners do not use their guns to kill people. Criminals who have the guns illegally in the first place do.

We can thank Hollywood for the gun crime as the movies glorify violence and guns. Kids see their favourite characters using guns and they see someone getting shot and it's no big deal. But have you ever seen an actual gunshot wound? I have and it's not nice. They do not see the real effect of shooting someone on a film. They do not see the repurcussions.

Guns give someone a feeling of power and with power comes responsibility (thank you Spiderman for that!)

Look at the toubles in Northern Ireland with guns. Horrific violence daily so this seems to suggest that if the guns weren't there then there wouldn't be as many problems???? Except for pipe bombs etc

Prohibition doesn't work but strict control and proper education does.

Americans are a very violent country. They have a violent nature. They are bullies. They want something they take it. They don't like something they shoot it. Recent events in Iraq prove this without question.

Bush just wants to blow the $hit out of things and wanted a big war in his lifetime that he could brag about to his Daddy.



Live long and Love life

Kevin Fisher
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: sharkeyandgeorge on 17/10/2005 11:40:06
thanks drkev you kind of made me think and i retract my former statement give everybody guns pistols shotguns and full auto but then as chris rock says charge a thousand per bullet and see how the percentages fall. As he says "id pop a cap in you ass......if i could afford it"

Giggidy Giggidy Goo
The philosopher Q man
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: i_have_no_idea on 19/10/2005 00:38:51
Would any of you europeans want to own a gun? Im glad we can own guns here.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Solvay_1927 on 20/10/2005 00:53:41
"Would any of you europeans want to own a gun?"

You may as well ask "Would any of you want to keep a nuclear reactor in your shed" or "Would any of you want to keep a toxic waste site in your back garden" or "Would any of you like to learn to juggle razor wire" or ...

The answer is No, thanks.


"The early bird may get the worm, but it's the second mouse who gets the cheese."
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: i_have_no_idea on 23/10/2005 20:26:12
I wouldnt mind owning a nuclear reactor in my shed.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: neilep on 23/10/2005 21:38:18
quote:
Originally posted by i_have_no_idea

I wouldnt mind owning a nuclear reactor in my shed.



LOL !!...I think I've got one lying around somewhere, if I find it I'll send it to you with love from the UK [;)]

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: drkev on 25/10/2005 13:05:22
The difference between us Europeans as you put it (which I find quite offensive as I am British not European. It's like saying Americans are Canadians or vice versa) is that we do not believe that we are ENTITLED to carry a gun.

Nobody can escape the fact that it is not appropriate for anybody to have an M16 or AK74 in their house. Yes that is correct, the gun is called and AK74, the AK47 was a cheap American copy of the 74.

However, the Americans feel that it is their constitutional right to have an automatic weapon. They feel that god gave them the right to carry a handgun.

They argue that the government tries to interfere with their lives and that nobody should be able to tell them what to do.

Now that I am a lawyer (well nearly I qualify in June) it is obvious to me that we need some element of control from the government otherwise there would be bedlam. We need to strike a balance though.

This is the difference, just because you have a right to have something it doesn't mean you should. Most people only have a gun because everyone else has one.

The police are currently processing my application for a gun. I have applied for a hunting rifle to go deer stalking. However this has a specific purpose.

I do not see the need for a semi automatic weapon or a fully automatic weapon.

The fact is that you do not NEED a gun. You WANT a gun. I don't NEED a car but I have got one because I can have one. I feel it is the same with guns. In the USA people can have a gun so they do. They feel they are entitled to it and nobody can take it away.

Well you ask the parent of anyone who has been murdered with a handgun wether they think you should have it.

Why do you need it anyway? Self defence? Well why is it that Brits do not feel the need to have a gun to defend ourselves? We are not even allowed tazers, pepper spray, batons or anything else to defend ourselves.

You only need a gun to defend yourself because every other person in the country has one and criminals can pick them up at the bloody Kwik 'E' Mart.

America is a disgraceful country of violence and crime. That is not to say I do not like the American people because I do and I do not stereotype but look at the numbers of people killed with guns each year compared to every other country. Millions are killed each year in the USA compared to less than 200 in Canada and 400 in Australia.

Do you know why guns are your constitutional right? So that the white man can "defend" himself against the "evil" black man. Look really closely at the law. It is about the whites persecuting the blacks and then when they killed them all they turned on each other. Watch bowling for columbine it really does open your eyes.

My dissertation is going to be on another great American institution - Capital Punishment. Boy have I done some extensive research and uncovered some nasty things about that country.

Live long and Love life

Kevin Fisher
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: i_have_no_idea on 25/10/2005 21:18:06
My friends got a magazine with gatling guns for only $400.

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Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 27/10/2005 01:01:16
quote:
Originally posted by drkev

The difference between us Europeans as you put it (which I find quite offensive as I am British not European. It's like saying Americans are Canadians or vice versa) is that we do not believe that we are ENTITLED to carry a gun.



I am English (the Scots decided they don't want to be British any more, so I am English, as distinct from Scottish), but I am also European.  I have no problem with that.

The difference with the Americans is that the USA has hijacked the word American; no single nation has hijacked the word European, and there is no reason why the term should be used to describe a Frenchman, or a Scandinavian, or a Greek, but not an Englishman.

quote:

Nobody can escape the fact that it is not appropriate for anybody to have an M16 or AK74 in their house. Yes that is correct, the gun is called and AK74, the AK47 was a cheap American copy of the 74.



Although I am no expert on gins, I think it well established that the AK47 is just that, and it is so because it nominally went into production in 1947.  The AK74 is a weapon that was brought in to replace the AK47 around 1974.

quote:

However, the Americans feel that it is their constitutional right to have an automatic weapon. They feel that god gave them the right to carry a handgun.

They argue that the government tries to interfere with their lives and that nobody should be able to tell them what to do.

Now that I am a lawyer (well nearly I qualify in June) it is obvious to me that we need some element of control from the government otherwise there would be bedlam. We need to strike a balance though.



While what you say about striking a balance is indeed correct, but where and how that balance is struck is a very different matter.

The USA is by no means the only country with high gun ownership, but as has often been pointed out, the high rate of gun ownership in Switzerland does not lead to high levels of gun crime.  Conversely, in this country, gun crime has rocketed since hand guns were outlawed.

In many cases, the better way to deal with such matters it to motivate people to be properly trained in safety than to outlaw these things outright.  Outlawing something often does little more than force it underground, and thus remove whatever hope you might have had for controlling the legal use of such things.

quote:

This is the difference, just because you have a right to have something it doesn't mean you should. Most people only have a gun because everyone else has one.

The police are currently processing my application for a gun. I have applied for a hunting rifle to go deer stalking. However this has a specific purpose.

I do not see the need for a semi automatic weapon or a fully automatic weapon.



And can you tell us why you should have a right to hunt deer?  You can go to the supermarket and buy venison.

I understand that you may enjoy hunting deer, but you have no more a God given right to hunt deer than Americans have to own guns.

If an American may wish to go down to his local gun club to use an AK47, and enjoys doing so, why is this different than your taking your hunting rifle out to stalk deer?

quote:

The fact is that you do not NEED a gun. You WANT a gun. I don't NEED a car but I have got one because I can have one. I feel it is the same with guns. In the USA people can have a gun so they do. They feel they are entitled to it and nobody can take it away.

Well you ask the parent of anyone who has been murdered with a handgun wether they think you should have it.



The fact is that more children are killed, and in recent decades (both during the years hand guns were legally owned, and in the years since) far more children in this country (and I imagine in the USA) have been killed by cars than by any form of firearm.

quote:

America is a disgraceful country of violence and crime. That is not to say I do not like the American people because I do and I do not stereotype but look at the numbers of people killed with guns each year compared to every other country. Millions are killed each year in the USA compared to less than 200 in Canada and 400 in Australia.



Millions?

But as you say, the reality is that in the USA, the problem is far broader than merely the issue of gun ownership, it is about crime and violence in general.  The USA has the highest percentage of persons in its jails of any developed nation, only exceeded by the likes of China; and it similarly is different to Europe in still retaining the death penalty.  Violence permeates the society as much at the institutional level as it does at the individual level.

Interestingly, while the rate of homicide from firearms in Switzerland is comparable to that in Canada (which is about one eighth that of the USA), the rate of suicide by the use of guns is scarcely different in the two countries (and even in the USA, there are more suicides from gun use than homicides).  It seems that there is probably a higher correlation between gun ownership and suicides by the use of guns than there is between gun ownership and homicides by the use of guns.  Would those people who use a gun to commit suicide have committed suicide by another means if the guns had not been available - that is an interesting question.

The problem we have is not that the Americans may own guns, but that they have a love affair with the gun, and as with all such all consuming passions, it is the passion that is destructive, not the object of desire itself.

quote:

Do you know why guns are your constitutional right? So that the white man can "defend" himself against the "evil" black man. Look really closely at the law. It is about the whites persecuting the blacks and then when they killed them all they turned on each other. Watch bowling for columbine it really does open your eyes.



Again, this is incorrect.  The reason the American has the constitutional right to carry arms is to shoot "evil" Brits.  It was a byproduct of raising a popular militia army for the anti-colonial revolution, and is similar in nature to the Swiss or Israeli Army, except that the USA no longer has a popular militia army, and there is no longer the original purpose for that constitutional right to be there.  In a similar fashion, in medieval times, the English yeoman was required to have regular archery practice, and thus one may assume he also had an obligation to own bows and arrows.  The problem with the Americans is that while they retained the right to bear arms, they never had the obligation to regularly train in the appropriate use of arms.  The Swiss and Israeli's, when the give their population guns, they also give them training in how to use (and not to use) them.  True, for other reasons, Israeli law and order has started to break down of recent years, but that just goes to show that crime is not a consequence of gun ownership, but a product of public faith in the institution of the law.

Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: simeonie on 27/10/2005 20:19:56
Hmmm in America are you allowed to just carry guns around the street or must they stay in your home?

I have quite a few air guns which are very powerfull. My rifle goes right through a pretty solid wooden door and leaves a nice big hole in the back, this 'weapon' would deffinetly leave a mess of your face. I think that if proper guns are illegal as much as I enjoy them so should air guns. Also I have a bow, which is outragously powerful, when I mean power I mean power. It would like go right through, they are deadly weapons even more so that a 9mm gun I think.

----------------------
http://www.simeonie.co.uk
Check it out. Click on the forums
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: i_have_no_idea on 27/10/2005 22:43:19
In america you cant just go around with your AK-47 you have to first be able to own a gun then keep it locked up in a gun case or if its in your car you arnt alowd to be able to get at it (has to be in the trunk or something).  Although if you get a permit to cary a consealed weapon then yes you are but that would be like a hand gun.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: christiansturt on 15/09/2006 14:35:03
What I will never understand is why a country that is so lax on Gun ownership has so strict alcohol laws  Not being able to drink until you are 21 is just stupid (not to mention having to hide it in public) and must lead to more drug problems.   The average 18 year old in the UK goes out and drinks too much, and has a good time. At least they get the hangover in the morning to remind them to moderate their usage next time! Where as the average American might as well do drugs rather than beer as they have less after effects, and are easier to conceal.


And I’m English, not British or European.  Europe is a place over the English Channel full of Cheese eating, garlic smelling surrender monkeys. (-:



quote:
Originally posted by i_have_no_idea

In america you cant just go around with your AK-47 you have to first be able to own a gun then keep it locked up in a gun case or if its in your car you arnt alowd to be able to get at it (has to be in the trunk or something).  Although if you get a permit to cary a consealed weapon then yes you are but that would be like a hand gun.

Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Mirage on 15/09/2006 17:38:58
I take it you don't like the French then

I've always wanted to own a gun, I'm into the outdoor shooting hobby. I've been to archery with my cousin a few times and have had a great time. I would never turn a weapon with such a destructive force on a living soul, but the chance to be able to go out into a field and shoot targets, sounds like fun to me.

I understand the issues people have when it comes to guns. I have been in many debates on other forums about guns in the uk, should the police carry guns, would it help, would it makes things worse!!?? Well to be honest I would prefer the police to be carrying guns, I know I would feel safer.

-------------------------
Flying Monkey Slayer says:

Remember boys, flies spread disease, so keep your closed (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.infinit.net%2Fbluefire%2FImages%2Fth_tumbleweed1.gif&hash=7e56fbbe4aa688ed3a518c7d9eefceef)
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: moonfire on 15/09/2006 18:11:45
Shoot!(no gun, I mean pun intended)If they outlawed guns...what would the criminals do here...I mean butter knives can hardly do damage to a flower...hehe

There is darts...hmmm, maybe we can take up sleeping potions or just plain poison it might be much more fun for the criminals to really hit a moving target..hehe  There would be alot of police without jobs if the criminals weren't using guns...?

"Lo" Loretta
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Mirage on 15/09/2006 18:38:45
That would be pretty cool if you accidentally got shot in the arse by a sleepy dart.......work would say why didn't you show up to work, well you see I was sleeping because the police shot me

-------------------------
Flying Monkey Slayer says:

Remember boys, flies spread disease, so keep your closed (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.infinit.net%2Fbluefire%2FImages%2Fth_tumbleweed1.gif&hash=7e56fbbe4aa688ed3a518c7d9eefceef)
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Karen W. on 15/09/2006 19:40:40
LOL LOL!!

Karen
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Andy28 on 21/09/2006 21:20:20
Look at the columbine high school massacre and several other similar incidents. They were commited by kids who had been given detention and other stupid reasons. America is totally foolish to allow people to have guns. The only people who should be legally armed are the police in all countries.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 22/09/2006 04:29:02
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

Look at the columbine high school massacre and several other similar incidents. They were commited by kids who had been given detention and other stupid reasons. America is totally foolish to allow people to have guns. The only people who should be legally armed are the police in all countries.



And what about pest controllers, farmers, sportsmen, etc.

There is a large gap between allowing everyone to have a gun, and allowing no-one to have a gun.  Why should either extreme be the right position to take?



George
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: moonfire on 22/09/2006 05:43:17
I like that George!  So true!  It is not the guns, but the person who has one...maybe they should regulate who would have them and I thought of an idea, but can't post it...hmmm, I am going to research patents on this idea...sorry

"Lo" Loretta
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Andy28 on 25/09/2006 16:56:44
Pest controllers and farmers? Ain't they the ones that shoot innocent little animals. Sorry i don't agree with it. Animals have just as much right as we do on this planet.
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Mirage on 25/09/2006 17:13:16
I hate hunting but I don't mind pest control to a certain degree. One of the problems I have with it is when they turn it into a sport, it's not a fun day out, it's just cruel.

-------------------------
Flying Monkey Slayer AKA The Big Cheese says:

My famous last words will be
"I dunno, press the button and find out."
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Carolyn on 25/09/2006 20:58:39
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

Pest controllers and farmers? Ain't they the ones that shoot innocent little animals. Sorry i don't agree with it. Animals have just as much right as we do on this planet.



Hi Andy - just curious, are you a vegetarian?  I don't believe in going out and shooting animals for the hell of it.  But I come from a family of hunters.  Every year, our freezers are full of venison.  And the freezers of many struggling families are full as well. I have alot of guns in my house.  So many, I've lost count.  Both of my children have guns. Every one of them are in a fireproof vault. I take a good deal of criticism from people that weren't brought up around guns and hunting.  That's ok, everyones entitled to their opinions. We are not a bunch of redneck, hillbilly rejects from from the movie Deliverance. We are law abiding citizens.  Our guns are used strictly for hunting.  Fortunately, we've never had to use them for self defense.  But I would if I had to.

I have also been the victim of a shooting.  Guns do not scare me.  Ignorant people with guns do.  I don't want guns banned in the USA, but I do wish gun laws were regulated better.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Mirage on 25/09/2006 21:15:54
See, now that's what I like. A responsible person who respects the power of such weapons. Carolyn, people like you and your family are the type of people I feel fine and safe to have guns. But yes, ignorant people with guns are scary

Hunting which involves killing for food I have nothing against. The type of, well "so called hunters" who chase after a fox whith a pack of dogs, well to me they are scum. I understand the damage a fox can cause on a farm, but chasing the poor creature like that I feel is wrong.



-------------------------
Flying Monkey Slayer AKA The Big Cheese says:

My famous last words will be
"I dunno, press the button and find out."
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Carolyn on 25/09/2006 21:31:23
Thank you Dan.  I think everyone that owns a gun should have to take a course on how to use it.  I agree, those types of hunters are scum.

Carolyn
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Mirage on 25/09/2006 22:07:28
No worries hun. I think a course is a good idea. However, I think it fine for hunters to own a gun, but feel there should be a line drawn as to who else can own one outside of those circumstances.

Mind you though, I would never want to come across anyone like from Deliverance, I don't want to squeal like a pig that's for sure [;)]

-------------------------
Flying Monkey Slayer AKA The Big Cheese says:

My famous last words will be
"I dunno, press the button and find out."
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 26/09/2006 03:24:29
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
Pest controllers and farmers? Ain't they the ones that shoot innocent little animals. Sorry i don't agree with it. Animals have just as much right as we do on this planet.



What do you mean by 'animals have just as much right'?

You are all for killing humans who do not obey the law, and yet which animal (aside from domesticated one's) actually abide by human laws?

I actually find greater moral dilemma about the farming of animals for food than the hunting of animals.  Ofcourse, farmed animals, for the most part, would not even be allowed to be born if it was not for their being a market for the carcases, but they do grow up trusting the humans around them, and that trust may be regarded in some ways as being betrayed when they are sent for slaughter.

By comparison, hunting a species that shares no trust with humans, and is not a part of human society (just as any predatory animals would without compunction hunt a human), I find natural and without any breach of trust.

No, I do not hunt, and aside from once doing some clay pigeon shooting, have not used a firearm.  Then again, the whole problem with hunting, as against farming, is that when human populations exceed a certain density, and wildlife reduces to below a certain density, it is not a sustainable source of food, hence the necessity to farm for food.  This is not a moral question but a pragmatic one.  In the south-east of England, these conditions have long held dominance, so there is very little practical value in hunting as a primary source of food in our part of the world.



George
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 26/09/2006 03:42:11
quote:
Originally posted by Mirage
I hate hunting but I don't mind pest control to a certain degree. One of the problems I have with it is when they turn it into a sport, it's not a fun day out, it's just cruel.



Is this attitude also towards fishing, which is one of the more popular sports in this country, or just a prejudice against fox hunting?

I don't like hunting for sport (although there must always be a gap between what I personally dislike, and what I am willing to prohibit others from doing – otherwise we would live under a tyranny of one persons moral superiority over everybody else), but I have absolutely nothing against someone who is hunting for a practical purpose then finding some way of turning that necessity into a sport.  Why should people have to to unnecessarily miserable just because you think it is not proper for them to enjoy what they are doing?

The issue is whether the hunt has a practical necessity or not?

There are many places where natural populations of animals (not only foxes, but in some parts of the world, even elephants, or many other wild life) must be culled.  Clearly, one would wish the people who undertake that job to take pride in the skill by which they do the job – and the moment they take pride in that skill, it becomes a sport.  But, more pertinently, in many impoverished parts of the world, selling hunting licences can bring in valuable revenue that might be used to better look after the remaining wildlife in the area (this is a controversial issue because of the association with the uncontrolled hunting of the past, but it does have good practical sense).

As I say, if one is talking about hunting for sport, then I agree with you, but if we are talking about making a necessary hunt into a sport, then I totally disagree with you.



George
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 26/09/2006 03:47:47
quote:
Originally posted by Mirage
No worries hun. I think a course is a good idea. However, I think it fine for hunters to own a gun, but feel there should be a line drawn as to who else can own one outside of those circumstances.



I actually see no problem is using guns for sport – we still have an Olympic shooting team, it is just that they are not allowed to train in this country (and we had to suspend our gun laws to allow the commonwealth sports to come here, and no doubt those same laws will be suspended when the Olympics come here – is that not hypocrisy for you?).

But as people have said, that does not mean uncontrolled owning of guns.  The reality is that gun crime has rocketed since the total prohibition on most gun ownership in this country, and while I am not suggesting it was a direct consequence of that legislation, what is clear is that the legislation hurt a lot of people who were responsibly enjoying the use of their guns in controlled environments, and did nothing to actually protect us from the illegal use of guns.



George
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Mirage on 26/09/2006 17:02:55
Ahh, I didn't actually think about fishing. But then there is a difference with fishing. I have no problem with it if you are going to eat the thing, but if it's just to catch the biggest one you can and then mount it, then that I do not like.



-------------------------
Flying Monkey Slayer AKA The Big Cheese says:

My famous last words will be
"I dunno, press the button and find out."
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Andy28 on 26/09/2006 17:07:15
You know what i hate most? When you see those snobby gits from the royal family driving around in their land rovers and shooting birds, etc. I once read in the paper that a fox hunter fell off his horse and the horse crushed him to death. Now thats justice!
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 26/09/2006 18:16:06
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

You know what i hate most? When you see those snobby gits from the royal family driving around in their land rovers and shooting birds, etc. I once read in the paper that a fox hunter fell off his horse and the horse crushed him to death. Now thats justice!



So this has nothing to do with moral principle as such, and more to do with class hatred?



George
Title: Re: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: moonfire on 27/09/2006 07:13:27
Wow!  Carolyn, I have to agree with you...plus there are hunters with bows and arrows, knives are used, all kinds of different weapons are used, but then there are the criminals who uses heavy objects such as household items, bats, and crazy stuff to kill people with...it is not the weapon itself as murder is in the heart already....

"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Infamous on 22/03/2007 02:01:39
How come guns aren't banned in the USA like in the UK or the majority(all?) of europe?
To defend ourselves from all those Europeans.
Quote from: qpan
Surely the US would be a safer place if guns were outlawed?

Only if we could also outlaw Europeans.....................Infy
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Boxcar on 19/07/2007 00:54:30
Em, kind of off topic but it's been kind of discussed and I saw it in the random thing and became interested

"Hunting which involves killing for food I have nothing against"
Maybe lost in the woods or something, we all need to survive. I think humans have come a looonng way since the time when hunting an animal was a necessity for survival but since then that necessity has definitely been eradicated. At least in the western societies with a super market with yummy veggie alternatives on nearly every corner. If you're going out killing animals only to satisfy your pallet I've no sympathy for you. There's almost definitely no more need for it.


"I agree, those types of hunters are scum"

I've been called on saying the "F word" here do I'll hold my tongue for a second.
You go out and kill animals as a means of survival. I think if you have the internet you must at least live somewhere not all that remote. If that's not true my sincerest apologies. As I said, humans have way come past the stage where we need meat to survive. Einstein said something like the only way for the human race to advance is to adopt a veggie diet. I didn't use quote marks because I don't know the exact words but it's something along those lines and I totally agree with him.

I'm kind of under the impression that the gun problem in the US is down to like communities been torn apart like. I mean like, you watch the news and it's someone getting shot down the road from you so you get all worked up and look at everyone funny but don't pay any attention the man who tapped you on the shoulder to let you know that you dropped your phone or something like that. We tend to overlook how the majority of humanity is nice and the saps stand out. If we put effort into building our communities I really doubt there would be trouble in them and if there was, well they'd probably have the ability to work out the problem together.
Gun crime has kind of reared it's ugly head in North Dublin and it's mainly over drugs and stuff. I think that could be a lot of gun crime actually. I suppose the solution is to stop buying drugs. I told a group of friends the other day, to stop buying drugs because it's indirectly putting money into the pockets of some scumbag from Clondalkin who'd gladly shoot someone's kneecaps off for some money but I don't think they payed attention  [:(]


Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: kdlynn on 19/07/2007 00:59:03
here's the main problem i see... if you tell the people that guns are now illegal and could you please turn them in to the government, who is actually going to turn them in? the criminals? i don't think so. only the people who had guns with no intention of shooting them at someone unless they were shot at...
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Karen W. on 19/07/2007 01:22:36
I with Caroline agree about stricter gun control and I certainly would not want them banned even in the face of many of my family members being shot to death as well as my best friend from High School! It wasn't the gun but the person who was allowed to get hold of it!There need to be stricter tighter rules and regulations and that kind of thing. I honestly do not know how I feel about automatic weapons they are generally not made for hunting.. someone please correct me if I am wrong! They seem more for harming or killing humans..I could be wrong though..
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 19/07/2007 01:38:15
here's the main problem i see... if you tell the people that guns are now illegal and could you please turn them in to the government, who is actually going to turn them in? the criminals? i don't think so. only the people who had guns with no intention of shooting them at someone unless they were shot at...

We've don it here, and that is exactly what happened.

We had a problem where a lone licensed gunman shot a few children (in fact there is good reason to suppose that the licensing regime had been inappropriately applied and the guy should never have had a licence to hold a gun).  The media then went on a campaign that nobody should be allowed to posses a handgun, not even Olympic target shooters.  The Government brought in a law to that effect.  Since then, we have had no legally owned handguns (except with the police or military), but gun crime has sky-rocketed.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: kdlynn on 19/07/2007 01:40:09
yes because the criminals know that nobody else has a gun and can't defend themselves!
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 19/07/2007 01:41:49
Gun crime has kind of reared it's ugly head in North Dublin and it's mainly over drugs and stuff. I think that could be a lot of gun crime actually. I suppose the solution is to stop buying drugs. I told a group of friends the other day, to stop buying drugs because it's indirectly putting money into the pockets of some scumbag from Clondalkin who'd gladly shoot someone's kneecaps off for some money but I don't think they payed attention  [:(]

The fact is, whether you or I like it, people always have, and always will take drugs.

The way to solve this problem is to break the criminal monopoly on drugs, and make it legal (this is not the same as making it socially desirable - but other drugs, such as alcohol and tobacco are legal).
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 19/07/2007 01:47:14
yes because the criminals know that nobody else has a gun and can't defend themselves!

Actually, that is not really the main problem at all.

The major part of gun crime is between criminal gangs who habitually use guns, and now feel they need to arm themselves because the opposition is armed, both to defend themselves, and because they treat it like a fashion item.

I don't know that there has been any marked increase in armed robberies in that time (remember that even when handguns were legal in this country, they were rare, and had to be stored securely and unloaded, so would not effectively be used to protect one's self or one's property).  The major increase in gun crime has been of deliberate killings, often of people within the criminal community of others within their community, but also often catching other family members of that community or people killed in a mistaken identity or as bystanders.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Boxcar on 19/07/2007 01:54:27
I with Caroline agree about stricter gun control and I certainly would not want them banned
If you're up for stricter gun control why don't you want guns to be banned? As you said, it's the person who was allowed to hold the gun who's doing the shooting. Is there a good reason to have guns like? If someone says hunting I don't like them.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 19/07/2007 01:56:11
"Hunting which involves killing for food I have nothing against"
Maybe lost in the woods or something, we all need to survive. I think humans have come a looonng way since the time when hunting an animal was a necessity for survival but since then that necessity has definitely been eradicated. At least in the western societies with a super market with yummy veggie alternatives on nearly every corner. If you're going out killing animals only to satisfy your pallet I've no sympathy for you. There's almost definitely no more need for it.

Apart from the fact that I, and many others, will not thank you at all for forcing us all to become vegetarians (it may suite you, but many others not so); but I would also argue that often hunting can benefit the species being hunted (so long as it is managed hunting).

Many domestic animals have only survived because they had economic value to humans (often as food value), and their wild cousins have in the meantime perished.

Many animals, such as pheasants, partridges, dear, are semi domesticated, insofar as there are people spending significant amounts of time and money to maintain the populations of these animals in order to keep them available to hunters.  If we lose the hunters, then we will also lose the game keepers that manage the species (or else we shall have to pay for those game keepers out of our taxes).

Clearly, that situation is very different in the US, where there is more open land, and game is more readily available without all the management of scarce resources we have to undertake in north-west Europe.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: kdlynn on 19/07/2007 01:57:13
hmmm... that's an interesting reason not to like someone...
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 19/07/2007 01:59:26
If you're up for stricter gun control why don't you want guns to be banned? As you said, it's the person who was allowed to hold the gun who's doing the shooting. Is there a good reason to have guns like? If someone says hunting I don't like them.

Are you talking about all guns, or only hand guns.

Hand guns, aside from their use by police forces, is only really valuable as a sporting tool, for target practice (for which there are Olympic events).

Rifles and shotguns have not been prohibited in this country because they are still used, aside from hunting for food, also for hunting as a means of vermin control.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Karen W. on 19/07/2007 03:14:53
I with Caroline agree about stricter gun control and I certainly would not want them banned
If you're up for stricter gun control why don't you want guns to be banned? As you said, it's the person who was allowed to hold the gun who's doing the shooting. Is there a good reason to have guns like? If someone says hunting I don't like them.


I believe that people need to be able to defend themselves as well as hunt if need be..We are not all vegetarians.I also know what it is like not to have money to go to those markets for even vegetables so I know we are not all in the same boat money wise a lot of people here rely on hunting and meager income to be able to eat and feed their families.

I think tighter control would help along with requirements for holding a gun..permits training background checks and periodical checks or renewals for permits based on new background checks etc. I am not sure how to do it but I think it is important to be able to maintain one also for safety of yourself and your family if a need ever arose!
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Carolyn on 19/07/2007 03:32:34
I with Caroline agree about stricter gun control and I certainly would not want them banned
If you're up for stricter gun control why don't you want guns to be banned? As you said, it's the person who was allowed to hold the gun who's doing the shooting. Is there a good reason to have guns like? If someone says hunting I don't like them.


Stricter gun control doesn't mean get rid of guns. It means the laws should tougher when it comes to who's allowed to own them. 

Yes there are excellent reasons to own guns!  My husband and son & daughter love going shooting....at targets.  We also use them for protection...not just from people, but wild animals as well.  We live in the country.  We've had bears, coyotes, rattlesnakes, moccasins, rabid dogs and even alligators in our yard.

And last but not least, hunting.  I grew up in a hunting family, married a hunter, and my children love to hunt.  Yes, we can buy meat in the grocery store, but not venison.

Sorry if this means you don't like me. [:)]
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Boxcar on 19/07/2007 19:38:09
I typed out a massive reply to this and accidently lost it all earlier today so this is going to seem kind of half hearted


I, and many others, will not thank you at all for forcing us all to become vegetarians (it may suite you, but many others not so)

Did I force anyone to be a veg? I've read my post twice now and I don't see it.

Many domestic animals have only survived because they had economic value to humans (often as food value), and their wild cousins have in the meantime perished

What animals are these and why would they have perished had they not been hunted?


If we lose the hunters, then we will also lose the game keepers that manage the species (or else we shall have to pay for those game keepers out of our taxes).

What kind of argument is that? Lets keep hunting for the sake of the gamekeepers? There's other jobs out there you know. For example, many dairy farmers are switching to oil seed rape for the fuel industry whcih I've heard is pretty profitable. There's worse things for your tax to go to like. I'd gladly pay more if I thought it would cripple the meat industry.


..We are not all vegetarians

Is that supposed to surprise me?


..I also know what it is like not to have money to go to those markets for even vegetables so I know we are not all in the same boat money wise a lot of people here rely on hunting and meager income to be able to eat and feed their families.

Yeah, what your saying is some people have to eat meat. I'd be really surprised if many here were in that sort of poverty to be honest. A veggie diet hardly breaks the bank. Look at all the drop outs and crusty punks living in squats who live on vegan diets. I agree that eating meat out of necessity is fine, how could it not be, but nowdays that necessity hardly exists


And last but not least, hunting.  I grew up in a hunting family, married a hunter, and my children love to hunt.

So? What's your point? I grew up in a catholic family and my sister loves to kick a football. I have a mild interest in kicking a football but otherwise these things say nothign about me.

 
Yes, we can buy meat in the grocery store, but not venison. .

You can kill an animal yourself or you can pay greedy corporations to do it for you? You're going for the lesser of two evils and totally missed my point. Why do you kill animals when there's a grocery store selling everything you need for a veggie diet.

Sorry if this means you don't like me.

I wasn't being serious


Sorry guys if I'm coming off in a kind of holier than thou attitude. Vegitarianism is something I feel very strong about and the means of nutrition alot of people really makes me sick.
I was going to type more but I've to catch a train. I'm going to a party tonight whoooo







Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Karen W. on 19/07/2007 20:15:33
I like meat I like veges I do not want to be a vegetarian.. I choose the food I eat because I like it sometimes I choose it because of the cost .. There is nothing wrong with eating meat! You certainly can choose for your self without criticism. It is a healthy choice if you balance things right!
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 19/07/2007 21:09:42
I typed out a massive reply to this and accidently lost it all earlier today so this is going to seem kind of half hearted

It happens – which is why I tend to compose the big replies in a word processor, and then cut and paste to post to the site.


Did I force anyone to be a veg? I've read my post twice now and I don't see it.

Sorry guys if I'm coming off in a kind of holier than thou attitude. Vegitarianism is something I feel very strong about and the means of nutrition alot of people really makes me sick.

You previously wrote:

If you're going out killing animals only to satisfy your pallet I've no sympathy for you. There's almost definitely no more need for it.

I read that to mean that you object to anybody who eats dead animals (OK, you did allow the option of people scavenging – e.g. Taking a road kill home to eat, but since the kill was not intentional, therefore would fall outside of your area of distaste).

It seems you had not intended to give that impression, so I shall let it go.



Many domestic animals have only survived because they had economic value to humans (often as food value), and their wild cousins have in the meantime perished
What animals are these and why would they have perished had they not been hunted?


Now you have not read what I wrote.  I did not say they survived because they were hunted, I said they survived (and thrived) because they were eaten by humans – i.e. they were farmed – e.g. cattle and sheep – even pigs within the confines of this country only exist in any numbers on farms.

It is open to judgement whether keeping a pig captive on a farm all its life, and then sending it to slaughter, is really a more humane option than letting a dear wonder freely until you come to shoot it.

If we lose the hunters, then we will also lose the game keepers that manage the species (or else we shall have to pay for those game keepers out of our taxes).

What kind of argument is that? Lets keep hunting for the sake of the gamekeepers? There's other jobs out there you know. For example, many dairy farmers are switching to oil seed rape for the fuel industry whcih I've heard is pretty profitable. There's worse things for your tax to go to like. I'd gladly pay more if I thought it would cripple the meat industry.

Again, you have not read properly what I had written (or at least, you have taken it out of context).

What I wrote, in its totality is:

Many animals, such as pheasants, partridges, dear, are semi domesticated, insofar as there are people spending significant amounts of time and money to maintain the populations of these animals in order to keep them available to hunters.  If we lose the hunters, then we will also lose the game keepers that manage the species (or else we shall have to pay for those game keepers out of our taxes).

I was not saying that we should keep hunting alive in order to pay the gamekeepers salaries; I was saying that the animals are protected and nurtured by the gamekeepers, and in if we lose the gamekeepers, then these animals would suffer (the gamekeepers are in effect farmers).

..I also know what it is like not to have money to go to those markets for even vegetables so I know we are not all in the same boat money wise a lot of people here rely on hunting and meager income to be able to eat and feed their families.

Yeah, what your saying is some people have to eat meat. I'd be really surprised if many here were in that sort of poverty to be honest. A veggie diet hardly breaks the bank. Look at all the drop outs and crusty punks living in squats who live on vegan diets. I agree that eating meat out of necessity is fine, how could it not be, but nowdays that necessity hardly exists

Fresh fruit and vegetables can be extremely expensive these days, but you also have to bear in mind that the whole structure of the welfare state is very different in the US to what we are used to over here, so it is very possible that the situation Karen describes is very different to what we might have here.

It has been said that in the richest country in the world, the USA, there are pockets where the poverty level is comparable to the third world.  This is something we are less used to in Europe.


I was going to type more but I've to catch a train. I'm going to a party tonight whoooo

Have fun!
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Simulated on 20/07/2007 03:04:16
I don't really use guns. Why do people need guns to destroy people and get food? Thanks!
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: kdlynn on 20/07/2007 03:56:55
let's not all attack each other. big group hug!
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Simulated on 20/07/2007 14:07:24
Sounds like a good idea. LoL. {{{hugs}}}
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Boxcar on 20/07/2007 18:53:40
I choose the food I eat because I like it

Good for you. Are you totally apathetic about everything or is it just animal's lives you don't care about?

There is nothing wrong with eating meat!

Do you know how meat is processed? Look it up. If you already knew and you still think there's nothing wrong, then is it that you think animals are inferior to you or something? Are you aware that animals go through great anxiety and suffering to make it to your plate? I would like to avoid moralising as much as I can so I'll just say that it's pretty important to look at your life and how you live it. Like what causes are due to your actions. Where do your responsibilities come from you know. For example, someone might decide not to buy coca cola, McDonalds or Starbucks products because they find the actions of those corporation to be un ethical. I honestly don't see how the actions of any of the meat corporations are even slightly ethical.

You certainly can choose for your self without criticism

Can you ellaborate?

Also, mods, is it ok to continue the veggie discussion in this thread?
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: paul.fr on 20/07/2007 19:08:12

Also, mods, is it ok to continue the veggie discussion in this thread?

Boxcar:

I think it best if you start a new topic, if it is a scientific question about a vegetarian diet then post in a science section that best suits your question. If it is about general pro's and con's, more of a personal issue, then i would suggest the chat section would be best.

Side note: Are you sure that vegetables do not feel pain? or undergro stress when they are force grown? Anyway, post your new topic and it can all be discussed there.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: another_someone on 20/07/2007 19:09:59
I choose the food I eat because I like it

Good for you. Are you totally apathetic about everything or is it just animal's lives you don't care about?

There is nothing wrong with eating meat!

Do you know how meat is processed? Look it up. If you already knew and you still think there's nothing wrong, then is it that you think animals are inferior to you or something? Are you aware that animals go through great anxiety and suffering to make it to your plate? I would like to avoid moralising as much as I can so I'll just say that it's pretty important to look at your life and how you live it. Like what causes are due to your actions. Where do your responsibilities come from you know. For example, someone might decide not to buy coca cola, McDonalds or Starbucks products because they find the actions of those corporation to be un ethical. I honestly don't see how the actions of any of the meat corporations are even slightly ethical.

Ethics are a highly personal thing, and that you don't see something as ethical does not mean others see it as unethical.

As for how meat is processed – how is that of ethical significance to you (and anyway, if we are talking about people who are hunting for their own table, they know exactly how the meat is processed, because they are doing the processing).

If you are talking about how meat is farmed, that is another matter, but it applies as much to dairy farming, or egg production, as it does to farming for meat.

Also, mods, is it ok to continue the veggie discussion in this thread?

We tend to get less fussy about what happens in threads on the Chat section of the forum than we do elsewhere, but if you wish to start a new thread on the matter, that is fine by me, or if you want us to split the posts that pertain to the veggie discussion into a new thread (so you don't lose the existing posts), we can do that too.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Killerhobbes117 on 22/04/2009 03:24:59
well america has a right to bear arms in the constitution
and you try taking americas guns away i wouldnt!!! [:)]
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: dentstudent on 22/04/2009 08:48:01
Americans have the right to the following, which is slightly different to having a right to own a gun.

US Constitution; 2nd Amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: syhprum on 22/04/2009 22:16:33
I have often wondered if the Apollo 11 crew took guns with them to the Moon, I find it hard to imagine Americans going anywhere without guns.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: borrego on 02/01/2011 02:14:58
Don't forget your history Britain:

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nraila.org%2Fimages%2FSendagun.GIF&hash=c707ad5d39fb59bb2d310767f1665e14)
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: CGNFOREVER on 03/01/2011 02:52:17
[;)]I'll give up my guns when hell freezes over.
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Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Geezer on 03/01/2011 09:28:27
Well good for you. But you might not want to advertise that you have guns on your premises too much.

Guns are one of the most popular things that people like to steal.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: graham.d on 03/01/2011 15:34:54
I'm sure all you gun-toting advocates contributing here are very responsible people. However the statistical data suggest that many people are not. I don't hold with the idea that Americans are naturally more violent than people in other countries, though I would note that the very high spread in wealth distribution may be a factor in the high crime rate and, maybe as a result, the high homicide rate.

I think that the most common reason given for gun ownership is personal protection. The justification for having a gun for hunting or protection against wild animals has some justification, but this does not correlate well with the types of gun most popularly sold. The protection justification is usually based on the slightly circular argument that there are a lot of guns out there and the bad guys have them; the circular part being that we therefore should allow more guns to be available to everyone. A handgun ban with a heavy penalty for unlawful possession would remove this justification within around a decade I would suggest.

There is also the effect of the powerful gun lobby supported strongly by arms manufacturers. Those who are not affected by the power of the media, which reflects, to some extent, both the status quo and also the desires of political and business lobbies, are in a small minority of unusual recluses. We are all affected by this combination of ignoble influence, political dogma and positive feedback. The degree to which this affects people's views is a hard thing to accept for many.

The other argument used in favour of retaining guns is the idea that it is the person that kills and not the weapon by itself. Whilst this is indeed unquestionably true, the ease with such an action can be taken with a gun compared with a big stick or even a knife means the types of weapon available is an importent consideration. Human nature is such that people, especially young men, can be raised to anger and this can lead to loss of control. Whilst this may lead to a fight it will rarely result in a homicide. Guns are a too easy response and can kill from a remote position. The effect is usually immediate and final. Even fatal accidents with guns can be a problem despite sensible advice on taking suitable precautions.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: yor_on on 03/01/2011 17:02:56
Yeah, it's a hard question. Considering that the 'Gun allowance' was thought to be one of the things defending the right of every individual to be able to defend himself and the constitution (namely USA) once when it was decided, it indeed is a 'right'.

But considering that the same Government today can drop a real good fuel bomb on you as you wave your Kalashnikov defending your constitutional rights, I'm not that impressed over that argument. 

When it comes to food I tend to side with them pointing out that we have super markets taking care of that. Hunting is assuredly a 'kick' for those doing it, making them able to do one of the most sublime thing known, Snuffing someones life out. In a world where we all find ourselves increasingly marginalized, made into cogs in a machine, it's understandable that we want to keep those few things proving ourselves so much better than something else. and what better proof than to kill it?

As for the argument of getting and being close to nature :)
In a way sure. Like the cavemans huh? Fighting for ya wimma, but with that trusty Kalashnikov instead of a flint-axe.

Still, we are killers, all of us are. And the food we find in the super store is killed too, although not by me personally.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Geezer on 03/01/2011 19:03:45
I'm not a hunter, or a gun owner myself (unless you count a BB rifle as a gun) but it's traditional around here for everybody to go a'hunting. A friend of mine got a moose this year. I tried some of the stew his wife made, and I'm afraid to say it was jolly good.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: CGNFOREVER on 03/01/2011 21:16:03
Yeah, it's a hard question. Considering that the 'Gun allowance' was thought to be one of the things defending the right of every individual to be able to defend himself and the constitution (namely USA) once when it was decided, it indeed is a 'right'.

But considering that the same Government today can drop a real good fuel bomb on you as you wave your Kalashnikov defending your constitutional rights, I'm not that impressed over that argument. 

When it comes to food I tend to side with them pointing out that we have super markets taking care of that. Hunting is assuredly a 'kick' for those doing it, making them able to do one of the most sublime thing known, Snuffing someones life out. In a world where we all find ourselves increasingly marginalized, made into cogs in a machine, it's understandable that we want to keep those few things proving ourselves so much better than something else. and what better proof than to kill it?

As for the argument of getting and being close to nature :)
In a way sure. Like the cavemans huh? Fighting for ya wimma, but with that trusty Kalashnikov instead of a flint-axe.

Still, we are killers, all of us are. And the food we find in the super store is killed too, although not by me personally.

Have you ever Heard of Iraq and Afghanistan.The Taliban is doing a pretty good job without bigger weapons..Now there are well over 600 thousand hunters in the United States, you don't think they would have an impact on an invading army?You're lying to yourself if you disagree.Not every solider is going to be in a tank or an aircraft..

Europeans are a strange bunch,The Europeans that wanted to leave left and came to America the ones that couldn't or wanted to side with monarchies and more controllable governments stayed.This is why I think you all are so anti gun.Your governments told you that guns are bad by banning them or putting stringent gun laws in place and you all seem to be happy with it.Here in the U.S people want less government control and more freedom's to do as they please.American's tend to get pissed when the government over steps its bounds and I contribute that american culture and to the immigrants that left Europe because of governments that were to strict.Also immigrants came here to start over with a better life and part of that was the promise of freedoms they might not otherwise have.

Banning guns doesn't accomplish safety it accomplishes a false sense of safety.We aren't allowed to have guns so we are safe and no one is going to shoot us,WRONG.I believe that proved its self to be true with the shootings in England a few months back.

This video is a must to watch,skip to 2.22 to watch the good stuff.
its long but worth it.
http://blogs.redding.com/bross/archives/2010/12/the-worlds-larg.html
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: graham.d on 03/01/2011 22:45:49
"Banning guns doesn't accomplish safety it accomplishes a false sense of safety.We aren't allowed to have guns so we are safe and no one is going to shoot us,WRONG.I believe that proved its self to be true with the shootings in England a few months back."

I don't think the statistics on fatal killings per capita bear you out on this.

I'm glad that you appreciate the history of what was behind the amendment. Not everyone does so. The reasons for the granting of the right to bear arms was important at the time, but it did not actually mean it quite in the way it has turned out. I believe it was intended to allow the formation of organised militia independent of the state, which could indeed still be a feature of the current situation. I don't think it was thought necessary by the founding fathers as a tool for self protection against crimes by fellow citizens using those same weapons. I actually don't see it as a very likely scenario that Americans are likely to take a weapons' led revolutionary stance against their elected government. And I don't see this to be likely in any democratic state at the present time - and not because the democratic states are necessarily really representative, but mainly that the overall systems that have been developed tend to favour the status quo anyway. Revolutions do not tend to occur in democracies. Do you really think that this is anything close to a prime reason why many people in the US bear arms? If so, there are a lot of dangerous people out there who currently are not regarded as criminals. Is it not more likely that, if you think that you are the last line of defence against an invading army, that this might just be an "invented", if only slightly plausible, excuse. With all the defence power that the US has got, I don't really think anyone would get close. There are countries that can justify this (e.g. Israel), but not the US.

Not all European countries forbid gun ownership by the way. Switzerland is an example and they have a relatively low crime rate, so I would agree gun ownership does not necessarily result in a high homicide rate, but it does in some places. The reasons can be complex. The UK has a rising problem with gun crime but it is still very low and there is general popular agreement about having tight gun laws. I don't see the need in the near future to rise up against the government either and, in any case, asymmetric wars do not tend to involve gun battles against professional, heavily armed, troops; it would be a lousy strategy.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Geezer on 03/01/2011 23:20:53
Futher anecdotal evidence:

Not long after we moved from the UK to the USA, I was chatting with a church minister, and I brought up the subject of guns. I was rabbiting on about how bad I thought it was that so many people in the US felt the need to own hand guns.

After a bit, I realized he wasn't exactly in full agreement with what I was saying, then he mentioned that he always kept a loaded revolver in his bedside table. Put a bit of a damper on the conversation, let me tell you.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: CGNFOREVER on 04/01/2011 00:00:23
"Banning guns doesn't accomplish safety it accomplishes a false sense of safety.We aren't allowed to have guns so we are safe and no one is going to shoot us,WRONG.I believe that proved its self to be true with the shootings in England a few months back."

I don't think the statistics on fatal killings per capita bear you out on this.

I'm glad that you appreciate the history of what was behind the amendment. Not everyone does so. The reasons for the granting of the right to bear arms was important at the time, but it did not actually mean it quite in the way it has turned out. I believe it was intended to allow the formation of organised militia independent of the state, which could indeed still be a feature of the current situation. I don't think it was thought necessary by the founding fathers as a tool for self protection against crimes by fellow citizens using those same weapons. I actually don't see it as a very likely scenario that Americans are likely to take a weapons' led revolutionary stance against their elected government. And I don't see this to be likely in any democratic state at the present time - and not because the democratic states are necessarily really representative, but mainly that the overall systems that have been developed tend to favour the status quo anyway. Revolutions do not tend to occur in democracies. Do you really think that this is anything close to a prime reason why many people in the US bear arms? If so, there are a lot of dangerous people out there who currently are not regarded as criminals. Is it not more likely that, if you think that you are the last line of defence against an invading army, that this might just be an "invented", if only slightly plausible, excuse. With all the defence power that the US has got, I don't really think anyone would get close. There are countries that can justify this (e.g. Israel), but not the US.

Not all European countries forbid gun ownership by the way. Switzerland is an example and they have a relatively low crime rate, so I would agree gun ownership does not necessarily result in a high homicide rate, but it does in some places. The reasons can be complex. The UK has a rising problem with gun crime but it is still very low and there is general popular agreement about having tight gun laws. I don't see the need in the near future to rise up against the government either and, in any case, asymmetric wars do not tend to involve gun battles against professional, heavily armed, troops; it would be a lousy strategy.
So you're a expert on the U.S Constitution??? the Constitution means exactly what it says.Good people with guns don't kill people,bad people with guns do.It all has to do with personal responsibility.If you didn't watch that video that I gave the link to,i'll basically tell you in short what it was about.

It was about personal responsibility, you and you alone are responsible for your actions.If some lunatic goes out and murders someone with a gun don't blame the community blame the person.The only one responsible for your actions is you,not the other millions of gun owners just you.Also the video was about teaching your kids to be safe with dangerous things,teach them how to handle and be safe with them.People that want to ban guns want to make the world a safe place by taking away dangerous things.There are a lot of dangerous things that can kill or injure people and if someone doesn't use that object with precision and care someone may get killed and i'm not talking just about guns.Sports cars,motor cycles,knives,swimming pools are a few things that can be dangerous.Someone gets in a sports car and doesn't know how to handle it and goes off and races with it,he is liable to kill someone including himself.Swimming pools kill thousands of kids world wide because they fell in and drowned.

Should we ban those things because some idiot got behind the wheel and killed someone, should we ban swimming pools because some child died?

Well you could say the only purpose guns serve is to kill.Oh yeah? Well that maybe true but a gun doesn't make a person,I own several firearms and I never wanted to go out and kill someone.

Those that want to kill will do so regardless if guns are banned.If they can't get a gun they'll get a knife, if they can't get a knife they'll get a stick.People has been murdering each other since the dawn of time.Nothing is going to stop that, no law on the books will ever do that.A good example of that is a man in Canada killed another man with a crossbow.Guns aren't completely banned there but they are a lot harder to get so someone determined to kill is going to regardless.

Sorry got a little side tracked back to the videos point and my point as well.Dangerous things shouldn't be feared,governments that seek to ban dangerous things like guns do so in fear.We shouldn't fear dangerous things,instead we should teach our children how to use and respect dangerous things because they are dangerous.We should teach them how to safely use them.

I blame the parents,if a child accidently kills himself,if his parents would teach their children that pointing a gun at someone or themselves could kill them and teach them the proper techniques to use them then maybe things would change.

In todays society people blame the community for someones actions and not the parents.If people would go straight to the parents and ask them why didn't you teach him to handle a dangerous thing.lay the blame on the teacher because the student is only as good as he is tought.But instead we blame gun owners because of what one individual did.


If we ban guns whats next?It wont end until the government has us in a padded cell figuratively speaking.And yet a lot of you people agree with that.

Bring back personal responsibility.

I haven't even scratched the surface of the gun debate. 

I mean then theres the whole self defense, believe it or not there are people out there that want to do you harm and may even want to kill you.A gun may give me a better chance of surviving an encounter.I'd rather have one than not have one if a situation like that ever occurred.I could go on and on.


And on to the whole,U.S has so much defensive power we don't need guns.Well gun owners in themselves are part of the defense.
I'm just glad none of you have any influence or it would be a bloody day in the U.S because me and i'm sure millions of other gun owners would not give up our firearms without a fight.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: yor_on on 04/01/2011 01:39:43
You're right in that Europeans come because of the chance of a better life. America still have a lot of resources Europe doesn't. But that is 'land' me man :) And some went because of repression from society etc. I agree to all those things. But times change, mostly, western Europe works in a democratic fashion today, and we seem to do alright without all those guns.

It may come to a point where every home will need its own, but before that point will be reached a whole society needs to go down in flames, valid for any society I'm saying now, not only USA. And if a democratic society reached that point its f*ed anyway. Former Yugoslavia was a good 'eastern' example of that recently.

A democratic country is not tested by its ability to have guns, but by the way its citizens have a right to make them selves heard, and by the way the government and bureaucracy listen and adapt to their peoples 'voice'. But I can't swear to this, it's how I look at it :)

==

I can tell you this, due to former Yugoslavia, and other wars in the east, we now see an increasing illegal import of heavy weaponry here in Sweden. People sell them cheap there as they need the cash, and we don't like it. The bobbies in England made do a long time without guns, now they need it too. In Canada they don't lock their front door. In the States they would call you a moron if you did the same. I'm not discussing weapons per se, or sport shooting but the more weapons there is in circulation the more probable that someone will get shot. And mostly those that get so are the victims, not the perpetrators.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Geezer on 04/01/2011 01:41:54
So you're a expert on the U.S Constitution??? the Constitution means exactly what it says.

If the Constitution means exactly what it says, why would Graham, or anyone else come to that, need to be an expert to understand it?
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: CGNFOREVER on 04/01/2011 01:59:40
So you're a expert on the U.S Constitution??? the Constitution means exactly what it says.

If the Constitution means exactly what it says, why would Graham, or anyone else come to that, need to be an expert to understand it?
What I mean by that is, is he a lawyer schooled in constitutional rights.But my guess is he's not because usually they fight to keep the constitution intact and not misinterpret it.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: yor_on on 04/01/2011 02:03:46
Futher anecdotal evidence:

Not long after we moved from the UK to the USA, I was chatting with a church minister, and I brought up the subject of guns. I was rabbiting on about how bad I thought it was that so many people in the US felt the need to own hand guns.

After a bit, I realized he wasn't exactly in full agreement with what I was saying, then he mentioned that he always kept a loaded revolver in his bedside table. Put a bit of a damper on the conversation, let me tell you.

A reverent situation where you suddenly saw the priesthood in a whole new light? :)
Someone should have tipped Jesus to it, then he might had a chance huh ??
I know, my jokes just went to a new all high low
Heh :)
==

Can't help it, I keep seeing that reverend talking to his mirror

"You talking to me, huh! You talking to me,  punk.."
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Geezer on 04/01/2011 05:08:00
So you're a expert on the U.S Constitution??? the Constitution means exactly what it says.

If the Constitution means exactly what it says, why would Graham, or anyone else come to that, need to be an expert to understand it?
What I mean by that is, is he a lawyer schooled in constitutional rights.But my guess is he's not because usually they fight to keep the constitution intact and not misinterpret it.

I not sure I understand. I think you are saying that my right to bear arms is guaranteed by the US Constitution.

If, as you say, the Constitution means exactly what it says, then there can be no ambiguity about it, so why would we need lawyers to interpret it for us. Or, are you really saying that the US Constitution is a bit vague on the subject, and open to different interpretations by artful lawyers?
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Marnaz on 04/01/2011 06:12:55
As Admiral Yamamoto famously said "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a man with a rifle behind every blade of grass."

This is the reason. America will always be a country for itself because the majority of citizens, even in times of difference, would stand and fight together as one people under the Unites States to protect their individual interests. We are "United States" but are still individual States, none the less. The constitution governs over all states and ensures the personal safety of all based on ones own means from the bill of rights for safety. The laws and times may be different, but the constitution is still important because they are baseline laws. The forefathers knew what they were doing. Sometimes there has to be a necessary evil to protect something that is already malleable enough. We're supposed to always be wary of our government as well because sometimes power gets into the wrong hands.

I'm not saying that guns are good and we should just shoot people, all I'm saying is that it is a good threat to anyone who wants to take the power away from the people. A threat and that only, but sometimes people take it too far and use their guns unnecessarily and it is sad to see this happen. But if the times ever get serious, people will at least have some kind of personal defense against tyranny.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: graham.d on 04/01/2011 10:27:31
There is quite a good discussion of the meaning on the 2nd amendment in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

CGNF, I'm all for personal responsibility but I don't think it follows that the collective responsibility, as represented by a constitutionally elected government, should not limit the actions of individuals where there is serious endangerment to other members of the society. To use your analogy with ownership of cars; these are very useful, and today necessary, forms of transport and vital to the national economy. Their use is certainly controlled and people have restricted rights (age limits, use under the influence of drugs/alcohol, speed limits, police supervision to see that rules are obeyed). It would clearly not be sensible to ban driving - at least not while there is no alternative and if there were alternatives the need to ban them may never arise. Going the other way, I don't think an individual is permitted to buy and own (say) Surface to Air Missiles are they? I may be wrong about this so I would be interested to know. The point is that all societies agree on rules which, to some extent, limit individual freedoms in favour of some advantages to the whole society. The statistics show a very high percentage, per capita, of fatalities resulting from the use of firearms in the US. It would seem to be a good idea to think of ways to reduce this. I have heard it argued that the people killed usually deserve it, and it is true that many teenage deaths (which is very high in the US) are often gang and/or drug related. However it does not seem that this problem is being overcome by use of firearms either and it is also not a very civilised approach to law enforcement.

My views on this are somewhat reinforced by the fact that a friend of mine who lived close to San Hose (nr San Francisco) had his 5 year old stepson shot and killed, whilst playing in his own house, by someone driving by and randomly firing a gun out of the window. There are loonies everywhere but in the US they can get and use a gun easily; the consequences can be dire.

Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Don_1 on 04/01/2011 13:58:40
Regardless of the arguments for and against the of bearing arms and the individual's interpretation of the constitution and any evidence from around the world, it would take a very brave and very foolish president to take on the might of the gun lobby.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: graham.d on 04/01/2011 14:25:46
You mean... you mean... someone might try to shoot the president???

Surely it would never happen.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Don_1 on 04/01/2011 14:46:01
We may never know.

Please stop calling me Shirley.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Geezer on 04/01/2011 19:37:00
Futher anecdotal evidence:

Not long after we moved from the UK to the USA, I was chatting with a church minister, and I brought up the subject of guns. I was rabbiting on about how bad I thought it was that so many people in the US felt the need to own hand guns.

After a bit, I realized he wasn't exactly in full agreement with what I was saying, then he mentioned that he always kept a loaded revolver in his bedside table. Put a bit of a damper on the conversation, let me tell you.

A reverent situation where you suddenly saw the priesthood in a whole new light? :)
Someone should have tipped Jesus to it, then he might had a chance huh ??
I know, my jokes just went to a new all high low
Heh :)
==

Can't help it, I keep seeing that reverend talking to his mirror

"You talking to me, huh! You talking to me,  punk.."

At least he'd be able to administer the coup de grâce * and the last rights almost simultaneously.


(* Not normally a French lawnmower)
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: imatfaal on 05/01/2011 09:57:00

Can't help it, I keep seeing that reverend talking to his mirror

"You talking to me, huh! You talking to me,  punk.."

I am not sure I could trust a supposed man of god who combined his Clint Eastwood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0-oinyjsk0) and his Robert de Niro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzPBUGUM7KQ)
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Variola on 05/01/2011 10:53:26
Quote
I am not sure I could trust a supposed man of god who combined his Clint Eastwood and his Robert de Niro
   

I am not sure I could trust a man who would know a man of god was mixing up his famous lines...  [;)]


On the subject of guns, don't ban guns, just ban ammunition  [:)]
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: CliffordK on 05/01/2011 11:04:26
The first thing one would expect any conquering government to do is to get the guns out of the hands of the people, and the inability to do so is one of the reasons why the USA is having such a tough time in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Around the world there are many Military Coups, and Dictators taking and holding power by force.  An armed populace, while it does carry a risk of breeding radicals, can also prevent total collapse of the legitimate government.

Having half of the world's military controlled by the USA, I have to question whether there would ever be a fullscale ground assault on the USA.  No doubt if it happened, it would be bloody to the point of making WWI trench warfare look like child's play.

Nor can I imagine a single General having enough power for a military Coup, although it is possible that the military would someday question the orders given by the civilian government.

I do think of handguns as an "offensive" weapon, and don't believe they are necessary in our modern society.  Rifles and shotguns have much more sports&hunting applications, and are far more defensive around the house.

I do have to question whether the USA, China, and Russia should be exporting weapons to other countries.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: imatfaal on 05/01/2011 12:12:16
Quote
I am not sure I could trust a supposed man of god who combined his Clint Eastwood and his Robert de Niro
  

I am not sure I could trust a man who would know a man of god was mixing up his famous lines...  [;)]

I am absolutely certain you are correct on that point - to my shame...

Around the world there are many Military Coups, and Dictators taking and holding power by force.  An armed populace, while it does carry a risk of breeding radicals, can also prevent total collapse of the legitimate government.

CK
I appreciate the sentiment behind your post and agree with much of it; I have one question - has a legitimate government really ever been defended by a gun holding populace?  My history is pretty lamentable so I ask merely for information rather than in a rhetorical way.  The UK exports a ridiculous amount of weapons and the promised ethical policy to constrain this practice is now 13 years overdue from its manifesto promise

Matthew
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: graham.d on 05/01/2011 12:31:42
Matthew, I would say the answer is probably yes, at least in part. I mentioned Israel as a case in point where they have a system where a large part of the population are conscripted at periods through their life for military training and retraining. The Kibbutz system was not set up just for picking fruit - they were intended as a first line of defence against attack by ground forces. To what extent they are a deterrent and to what extent they have been effective in the past I am not sure. Of course this does not mean a large number of Israelis carry handguns, though some do.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: CliffordK on 06/01/2011 09:39:57
Unfortunately my US History around the Revolutionary War period, Articles of the Confederation, and early constitution period is a bit weak.  I would assume that the British tried to take the guns away from the American Citizens.  But, perhaps you could argue the the British were the legitimate government, and the revolutionaries were just a coup.

I suppose our American Forefathers were a bit radical... 

Quote from: United States Declaration of Independence   http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence
When in the course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
[...]
Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
[...]
it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

As far as history...
If you look at WWII, many European countries including France and Italy celebrate a group of individuals called Partisans, Resistance Fighters, or Freedom Fighters.  I suppose one might question whether guns, or military intelligence was their major contribution to the war effort.  Perhaps both.  Perhaps it was just never fully accepting being conquered.

The problem that the USA had with our invasion of Vietnam was the it was impossible to tell the difference between the Vietcong, and the general population. 

When Russia invaded Afghanistan, they ran into the same issue.  An armed population that didn't want them there.  I suppose you may ask whether the arms were held internally, or supplied by an external force.  Does it really matter?  The people who drove the Russians out weren't trained in fancy government training camps.

Iran & Iraq just got out of a bloody 10-year war...  that really resolved nothing.

You would think that the American Politicians would have read their history books, but apparently an "A" in History isn't required to become president of the USA.  Within days of the Iraq invasion, the Iraq army officially fell.  The government has been toppled...  yet 8 years later, and we're still fighting....  that damn stubborn population that just won't give up.  Are they "Insurgents" or "Resistance Fighters", or perhaps a bit of both.

And, no, I never supported the invasion of Iraq, although I had always believed that it would lead to Muslims fighting Christians, rather than Muslims fighting Muslims. 

The only way to truly win the war is to disarm the people.  Although, perhaps that is a bit imperialistic thinking.  One really needs to win their hearts, and one can't do that by marching tanks down the streets.

Having guns out in the population with people who know how to use them makes it that much harder for the population to be conquered.

Single shot & semi-automatic against fully automatic guns?  I don't know, most hunting rifles have very good scopes...  which counts for a lot.  And, one may not have enough ammunition to indiscriminately fire.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Richard88 on 06/01/2011 13:33:46
The citizens of the United States of America believe in absolute freedom.  It is guaranteed to the people, by LAW, that you have an INHERENT RIGHT THAT NOBODY CAN TAKE AWAY.

The purpose of the 2nd amendment is to allow the general populace to overthrow the government, should it become tyrannical and oppressive.

I'm all for personal responsibility but I don't think it follows that the collective responsibility

I read all of what you wrote, but this is the part that chilled me to the bone.

I can think of another group that viewed the collective at a higher level than the individual.

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi113.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn205%2FDarkness84_2006%2Fingsoc.jpg&hash=41ed70499f90295bf2047054c1823247)
[Image resized to 'sensible' - Mod]

As of late, it appears the UK has been using "Nineteen Eighty Four" as an instruction manual.  How's the whole CCTV network thing working out for you?  Has the minitrue been put together yet?  Yes, I do speak at the extreme.

But, the entirety of the UK is disarmed.  Should the government become oppressive, what would you use to stop them?  Harsh language?

The rights of the individual trump that of the collective always.  There is no collective.  Only the many to serve the few.

Throughout history, there is a repeating cycle.  That is that all governments can and will turn oppressive.  It's a matter of whether of not you will have the proper agent to dispatch of those who wish ill upon all that is good.

Hitler, Mao Zedong, Kim Jong-Il, Pol Pott, Mehmed V Reshad, and Stalin all agree : Gun control works.

There will always be the deaths of the innocent.  Whether a gun, knife, car, your hands, or even free speech (loose lips, sink ships).  Whether caused by irresponsibility, or with criminal intent.  They will continue to happen and no amount of legislation will stop that.  People have been killing each other through irresponsibility and murder since the dawn of time.  No words on a piece of paper is going to stop that.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: JP on 06/01/2011 15:13:25
The purpose of the 2nd amendment is to allow the general populace to overthrow the government, should it become tyrannical and oppressive.

I suspect that become an impossibility somewhere before or during the cold war.  Military technology is just too far beyond civilian guns for this to be a real possibility anymore. 

Interestingly, this is one of the reasons that the American civil war lasted so long.  The South had a lot more guns and people trained to use them, so they had a big advantage early on.  The North, however, had most of the industry so eventually their production ramped up enough to counter this advantage.

By the way, I'm also curious why this thread is attracting so many first-time posters?  Are people lurking on the forums to post about this, or are people Googling for gun threads and finding this one to post on?
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: graham.d on 06/01/2011 15:51:58
It depends on what you mean by "oppressive". I can see a situation where a substantial minority can be come oppressed by the majority for example. You make take taxation as an example; the more well off members of society already pay a higher amount in tax. If this became punitive they may say enough is enough and decide to take direct action if they found that their government (elected by a majority) decided not to change things. Not so different from how the American revolution started. This is effectively allowing the power of the gun to attempt to overthrow an elected government. Another example, more recently, would be the demands for equal rights by black people in the southern states. You probably would agree that resorting to armed insurrection today (in either case) would not be a good idea. On the other hand if you are speaking of oppression of the majority then this is decided by the ballot box isn't it? All the examples you gave are totalitarian states. Democracies have their problems, but the constitution permits changing them via the ballot box and that this be tested on a regular basis. The constitutions of most democracies prevent governments from taking absolute power on an indefinite basis.

You may not like the word "collective" because of past associations with Orwell's 1984 or with its use associated with communism, (or maybe you are thinking of the "Borg" in StarTrek) but it is just describing the whole population which agree on a set of rules to live together. All societies do this from primitive tribes to sophisticated democracies - they all have agreed rules of acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. This agreement is best reached "collectively" and generally this is accepted by the majority of law abiding citizens. The alternative is anarchy.

You may think you are "free" but you are conditioned by your upbringing and surrounding influences all the time. And you are rightly controlled by the laws imposed upon you by your government. This is not unreasonable but it is good to be aware of it, especially by how much influence is wielded by the media, your own government and, indirectly, from powerful lobby groups. You have to think why a large number of Americans think differently about gun laws than the vast majority of Brits. I don't think there is so much difference in our cultural heritage to affect this, but there is a huge difference (whoever is right or wrong). Another example is why a majority of Canadians do not believe in human influenced global warming. I would not debate that one way or another here, but would point out that such a view would probably not be expected from the very ecologically minded Canadian culture until you realise that Canada is huge exporter of oil; the US is is its biggest customer and Canada is the USA's largest supplier. I would not expect individual Canadians to be influenced by the net benefit of this to their country, but they are pursuaded that the science behind the idea is flawed by the media they view and/or read. But this is another subject.
Title: Why aren't guns banned in the USA?
Post by: Geezer on 06/01/2011 21:34:16
If I did get a gun, I wouldn't have anywhere to keep it. Our house doesn't have a gun lobby.