Keith Diplock asked the Naked Scientists:
We have been on the treatment of the tropical disease specialist for three years now and my son just isn't getting any better.
my son just isn't getting any better. Is CFS treatable?
Keith Diplock asked the Naked Scientists:
My son has two strains of rickettsia and mycoplasma which the tropical disease specialist he is seeing has said has caused chronic fatigue syndrome. We have been on the treatment of the tropical disease specialist for three years now and my son just isn't getting any better. Is CFS treatable?
What do you think?
Pardon my ignorance moderators, but I'm new to this forum. Was this an actual question by a real person? If so, why isn't this person a member of the forum, so he can open the dialogue himself?
We do but there are a lot of posts to go through and we have other duties on the site.
CFS is a factitious syndrome that is commonly applied when the modality of the symptoms are unknown. I'd argue that your son's chronic exhaustion is primarily due to the hemotrophic bacteria's effects on his immune system. Have you had a metabolic panel performed? What are his WBC/RBC values? How's his liver function?
CFS is most definitely real friend. Your thinking is so kinda two decades ago...
And furthermore, your line of thinking is very hurtful to those who suffer, who have been stigmatized, who have many times had to deal with doctors or the public claiming it was in their heads, or not taking the condition seriously. But thankfully, those ignorant days are now behind us, since we've now discovered for FACT that it is indeed quite real and indeed quite debilitating. So I would ask you to do some research on the topic and educate yourself on the realities, prior to answering questions on it as if you know what you're talking about; when it's quite clear you don't.
But there are many sources available online for you to begin your search and education, so it wouldn't take you very long at all to become a bit more current with your information.
Fibromyalgia is a 'disease' of exclusion, which means its diagnosis is made when all others are ruled out. There is no definite serology, histology, pathology, hematology exc., defined for the disease, and it generally responds well to behavioral therapy, antidepressants, and anxiolytics. An individual with fibromyalgia may complain of neuralgia, but if given a neurological exam testing sensory dermatomes, and motor function, the results will come back inconsistent - although consistent with hypochondriasis.
So I would ask you to do some research on the topic and educate yourself on the realities, prior to answering questions on it as if you know what you're talking about; when it's quite clear you don't.
as if you know what you're talking about; when it's quite clear you don't.
CFS is most definitely real friend. Your thinking is so kinda two decades ago.
So then what's the point of reposting questions that the author can't and/or doesn't respond to?
If we're not actually responding to anyone.... then none of this makes any sense.
This interview on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome / ME (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/interviews/interview/1001217/) with Bergen's Olav Mella might provide insightful for you, Keith.
CFS is most definitely real friend. Your thinking is so kinda two decades ago.
Let me guess.... you believe in "adrenal fatigue" too?
How about the Tooth Fairy?
So then what's the point of reposting questions that the author can't and/or doesn't respond to?
If we're not actually responding to anyone.... then none of this makes any sense.
hemotrophic bacteria
So then what's the point of reposting questions that the author can't and/or doesn't respond to?
If we're not actually responding to anyone.... then none of this makes any sense.
When people email questions to us, or submit them via the feedback form on the front page of the website, the questions are processed and marshalled and then published, on behalf of the submitter, into this forum under the correct category.
48h after the question appears here, the sender automatically receives an email alerting them to the relevant thread containing their question (and hopefully our answers) as well as presenting them with a link to register for the forum.
Some are content just to read the answers; others do indeed join up.
I hope that explains the system to your satisfaction.
hemotrophic bacteria
Can you please tell me more about these "hemotrophic bacteria"? I'm intrigued because, as a medical microbiologist, I've never come across such an entity.
hemotrophic bacteria
Can you please tell me more about these "hemotrophic bacteria"? I'm intrigued because, as a medical microbiologist, I've never come across such an entity.
hemotropic (hē-mō-trŏp′ĭk) [″ + tropos, turning]
Attracted to or having an affinity for blood or blood cells.
REFERENCE:Medical Dictionary, © 2009 Farlex and Partners
Hemotropic mycoplasmas (hemoplasmas) are obligate epierythrocytic, cell wall-deficient bacteria that cause not-yet-curable infections in numerous animal species, including human beings. In general, these bacteria induce persistent asymptomatic intravascular infections in domestic and wild animals and are not considered to be highly pathogenic. Therefore, hemotropic mycoplasma infections are often chronic and occult in nature; however, hemolytic anemia of variable severity, often in association with other infectious or noninfectious diseases, has been reported in animals (1–5). Disease manifestations in animals are most often reported in association with drug- or retrovirus-induced immunosuppression, with stressors such as poor nutrition, pregnancy, or lactation, or with concurrent infection with another, more virulent pathogen (6–11).
Hemotropic Mycoplasma spp. represent emerging, zoonotic pathogens that pose poorly defined health risks for animals and humans throughout the world.
EXCERPT: J Clin Microbiol. 2013 Oct; 51(10): 3237–3241.
doi: 10.1128/JCM.01125-13
PMCID: PMC3811635
Infection with Hemotropic Mycoplasma Species in Patients with or without Extensive Arthropod or Animal Contact
A patient with chronic moderate neutropenia, acute hemolysis, and pyrexia was found to be infected with a novel hemoplasma species. A clinical response to doxycyline was noted, and moxifloxacin was added subsequently to aid infection clearance. This represents the first report of hemolysis in association with confirmed hemoplasma infection in a human.
Hemoplasmas infect many mammalian species and can induce life-threatening hemolytic anemia [2]. Human hemoplasma-like infections have been reported occasionally in immunocompromised patients by means of cytological diagnosis, which is known to be very unreliable [1, 3]. PCR methods are now used to investigate human hemoplasma infections. Limited human epidemiological studies have failed to detect infections [1, 4]. Although human hemoplasma infections have been reported in China [5, 6], these descriptions have not described clinical disease, PCR methodology, or infecting species, making interpretation difficult. Other studies have described the presence of existing veterinary hemoplasma species DNA in humans: Mycoplasma suis [7, 8], Mycoplasma haemofelis and/or Mycoplasma haemocanis [9, 10], and Mycoplasma ovis [11].
EXCERPT:
Clin Infect Dis. 2011 Dec 1; 53(11): e147–e151.
Published online 2011 Oct 21. doi: 10.1093/cid/cir666
PMCID: PMC3205199
A Novel Hemotropic Mycoplasma (Hemoplasma) in a Patient With Hemolytic Anemia and Pyrexia
So basically, this is almost certainly what the patient does not have.
By what method have you drawn such an absurd conclusion that this is what the patient is suffering from?
Your ignorance on this topic is astounding, and I'd wager to most readers you're making yourself look like a fool. Again, your thinking is so two decades ago. CFS has since been proven as real. That's a medical fact. So I implore you, lest you continue to make yourself the fool, please actually research the subject, using information and fact from the current day, not from 2 decades ago, so that you may more intelligently engage in this topic.
So I would ask you to do some research on the topic and educate yourself on the realities, prior to answering questions on it as if you know what you're talking about; when it's quite clear you don't.
Oh really now?
Would you care to critique my comments regarding the marked decrements of intracellular glutathione levels then?
How about giving us a treatment modality and we'll compare it to mine.... then we'll see if you still feel the same?
Your ignorance on this topic is astounding, and I'd wager to most readers you're making yourself look like a fool. Again, your thinking is so two decades ago. CFS has since been proven as real. That's a medical fact. So I implore you, lest you continue to make yourself the fool, please actually research the subject, using information and fact from the current day, not from 2 decades ago, so that you may more intelligently engage in this topic.
I have presented & offered pertinent scientific information to the topic in question. All you've done is babble - which will do nothing to help his son.
You know what's real about CFS? ..... The symptoms.
You know what's bogus about CFS..... The diagnosis.
Implying that CFS is where the etiology of all these symptoms begins is just nonsensical.
So I would ask you to do some research on the topic and educate yourself on the realities, prior to answering questions on it as if you know what you're talking about; when it's quite clear you don't.
Oh really now?
Would you care to critique my comments regarding the marked decrements of intracellular glutathione levels then?
How about giving us a treatment modality and we'll compare it to mine.... then we'll see if you still feel the same?
I'm still waiting....
you're wrong. No, he isn't suffering from what you say. In fact, it's probably the last thing he's suffering from
My son has two strains of rickettsia and mycoplasma
Mycoplasma, Chlamydia, Borrelia, Brucella, etc. or viruses such as CMV, HHV6, EV or enterovirus, etc.) can invade virtually every human tissue and can compromise the immune system, permitting opportunistic infections by other bacteria, viruses, fungi and yeast. Mycoplasma, Chlamydia, Borrelia, Rickettsia and other pathogens can also directly damage and kill nerve cells in a process called apoptosis, resulting in nervous system degeneration.
When mycoplasmas exit certain cells, such as synovial cells, nerve cells, among others that can be infected, they can stimulate an autoimmune response. This can occur by different mechanisms. One mechanism that has intrigued us is that when certain microorganisms, such as certain species of mycoplasmas, exit from invaded cells, they carry part of the host cell membrane on their surface. This may trigger the immune system to respond to the host antigens on the foreign microorganism.
Male - 12 years old.
For 3 months. Returning from camp, he developed encephalitis. He was hospitalised for 1 week, and was discharged with serious aggressive tendencies and depression. He was initially diagnosed as a psychopath, by 3 different psychiatrists. He was treated with antidepressants and sedatives, and was on the point of being admitted to a psychiatric hospital. The second diagnosis: chronic rickettsial infection. He was given 3 courses of treatment of tetracyclines and stopped all other medication. He subsequently became a school prefect and his condition is maintained to the present day.
Female - 52 years old.
First diagnosed as M.E. after 6 years of fatigue. Neurological symptoms then appeared. The second diagnosis was Multiple Sclerosis. She was treated repeatedly with cortisone for her many relapses. She eventually was confined to a wheelchair for most of the time. She eventually came to see me and her blood tests showed chronic active rickettsial and chlamydial infection. She was treated for 18 months with pulse antibiotic therapy and stays in remission since 1994.
Male - 26 years old.
He was tired, depressed and complained of body pains for 4 years. Diagnosed as positive for rickettsia, chlamydia and mycoplasma. He was improving well after 3 treatments, but was then hospitalised for hepatitis. During his stay in hospital he developed pneumonia, and required intensive care. He tested positive again for mycoplasma and was treated for it successfully.
Female - 26 years.
Was an insulin dependant, stabilized diabetic since the age of 15. She became very tired and depressed after working in a nursery school, where she came into contact with head lice. She was hospitalised many times for hypoglycemia (severe lowering of blood sugar) in a comatose state - no longer stable. She saw a psychiatrist, but her depression did not improve and also she complained of joint pains. After establishing active rickettsial infection through blood tests, she was treated with tetracycline pulse therapy for 6 months and recovered completely. Her diabetes is stable again.
Female - 50 years old.
Has been fatigued for years and despite seeking medical help, her condition keeps on deteriorating. Later on, she is hospitalised for a myocardial infarction, while she is showing the first symptoms of multiple sclerosis. Shortly after this, epileptic fits happen more and more frequently and become difficult to control. Three years after the epileptic onset, she undergoes a total colectomy for hemorrhagic colitis. When i first saw her, she could hardly stand and had a major difficulty to find her words. Seizures were happening daily. After six months of antibiotherapy, she progressed to the point that she was writing a thesis, had about no epileptic fits and could walk without hesitation. Four years along the line, she is still on treatment and maintains her progress, altough epilepsy has to be controlled by medication and fits are happening now and then. Her main problem is that lasting heavy tiredness.
Male - 25 years old.
Is admitted to hospital for pneumonia after a trip to Australia via Malaysia.
He does not recover and becomes excessively tired and unwell. After consulting many doctors, the findings of m.e. as a diagnosis is not much of a help. He reaches the point of considering suicide as the only exit. Fortunately his health condition improves dramatically under my regime of pulse antibiotherapy. But a few months later, he is rushed to hospital for hepatitis followed by a severe pneumonia. Again, he progresses rapidly under antibiotherapy. Recently he is diagnosed with an enlarged liver, the cause of this being attributed to his previous attack of hepatitis. Further investigations reveal a constrictive pericarditis showing calcification of 1 cm thick around both ventricles which will require a pericardial decortication. He stopped in Johannesburg on his way to cape town where surgery was scheduled. His attitude before this major procedure to come is that it cannot be worse than when he had m.e. As his clinical condition was the one of a fit young man, i referred him for another evaluation of his heart. The sophisticated tridimensionnal scan done in Luxemburg's proved wrong and new pressure measurements saved him from a major intervention.
Female - 35 years old.
Is first diagnosed with crohn disease fifteen years ago, followed two years later with rheumatoid arthritis. The year after, she shows the symptoms for bornholm disease. She then develops a severe fatigue preventing her from attending work, accompanied with headaches that require the daily use of morphine. On her first visit, she presented with continuous headaches, permanent backaches, bilateral hip pain and chronic diarrhea. The abdominal disturbances were the first one to subside after 2-3 months of antibiotherapy. She now suffers rarely of these debilitated headaches and her bodyaches are somehow barable.
Female - 56 years old.
Suffers from pernicious anaemia for many years starting after a tick bite fever. Four years later she is diagnosed with"discoid lupus". She comes to see me for fatigue and generalised bodyaches. She is doing well on my antibiotherapy and the treatment is discontinued after one year. A brain scan performed to investigate a persistent loss of balance reveals the onset of multiple sclerosis. Three months later, a total mammectomy is performed for cancer. She is still on antibiotics with very little results until now.
Male - 43 year old.
Farmer and polo player. at the age of 34, develops extreme fatigue and a generalised eczema for nine years, soon not responding to the administration of a growing dosage of cortisone, or to chemotherapy. No need to add that he is also given antidepressants. After six to eight months of antibiotherapy he recovered to the extend that cortisone is not necessary anymore. His skin looks healthy again.
Male - 67 years old.
Suffers from high blood pressure since the age of 52. At the age of 62, he needs a colectomy for cancer. In the last four years, he presents with a chronic uveitis while he is diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and cfs. He contracts lyme disease in the united states after tick bites. The brain mri performed to investigate his headaches shows hyper-intensities in the white matter. Two years later a growth appears on the third right metacarpal, first confirmed by a radio nuclear study as part of a chronic infection (brodies abscess). Refusing the amputation of his hand, the patient goes for second opinion which confirms my diagnosis, a paget disease. This has been treated successfuly wth chemotherapy and the patient is asyptomatic.
http://chronicfatiguesyndrome.co.za/case-studies
Please point me to the case study above in which the misdiagnosed patient turned out to be suffering from hemotrophic bacteria. K? Thx.Funny... Not one of your examples contain a patient suffering from the absurd condition you through the Internet diagnosed the op with. Now why is that I wonder? Lol
Apparently you are illiterate or you have an extra chromosome. Whichever it is....
I find it mind blowing that you think you're actually saying anything of value here. It's all malarkey. I'm not gonna give the malarkey credibility by actually having a serious discussion about it, as if it's worthy of it. It's not. It's just malarkey. There's no further discussion on it that needs to be had. Like I said, educate yourself on cfs first. Actually get yourself some knowledge on it. Maybe then we could have a discussion.
And there are misdiagnoses with any condition. That doesn't mean that thereafter every diagnosis of it therefore must be wrong. Such conclusions are the product of ignorance and tragically flawed logic. Again, your ignorance on this topic is astounding. And you've posted nothing but a bunch of malarkey, and nothing that will be helpful to the person who asked the question whatsoever. And you continue to repeat the ridiculous assertion that cfs isn't real, when it's been proven that it is. Proven. That means fact.
Can you please tell me more about these "hemotrophic bacteria"? I'm intrigued because, as a medical microbiologist, I've never come across such an entity.
Can you please tell me more about these "hemotrophic bacteria"? I'm intrigued because, as a medical microbiologist, I've never come across such an entity.
Ok I gave you a detailed response. Wouldn't hemotrophic bacteria be something you should have already known about in your profession.... or did you ask just to test my knowledge?
from your own study you posted, it questioned its relevance in humans and had only one person ever believed to have actually had it. Just one. Out of 7 billion people.
Why should he know it
Poorly defined risks because it barely presents in humans ever. It's just not a relevant concern at all. When there are 7 billion people on the planet and one case study of this hemotrophic bacteria I'm pretty sure it's something no one cares about.Why should he know it
Because he's a medical microbiologist and as stated in the excerpt:
"Hemotropic mycoplasmas cause not-yet-curable infections in numerous animal species, including human beings."
And that they:
"represent emerging, zoonotic pathogens that pose poorly defined health risks for animals and humans throughout the world."
I'm pretty sure it's something no one cares about.
His son has cfs, and it would probably mean a lot more to them that someone not deny the condition doesn't even exist, since trust me, such attitudes are extremely hurtful. Bye now.I'm pretty sure it's something no one cares about.
Oh really????
Why don't you try telling Kieth Diplock that?
Or better yet.... tell his son.
Why should he know it when there are almost zero cases of it in humans? It's just something that is so beyond rare and unlikely that I could totally understand why most in the profession wouldn't ever take it seriously. Cause it doesn't seem to be something that is of risk to anybody, nor something that is almost ever, ever,to be a likely diagnosis. Cause again, from your own study you posted, it questioned its relevance in humans and had only one person ever believed to have actually had it. Just one. Out of 7 billion people. Probably not something most are gonna ever pay attention to.
No, the symptoms he's experiencing are the result of being afflicted with the very real condition CFS.Why should he know it when there are almost zero cases of it in humans? It's just something that is so beyond rare and unlikely that I could totally understand why most in the profession wouldn't ever take it seriously. Cause it doesn't seem to be something that is of risk to anybody, nor something that is almost ever, ever,to be a likely diagnosis. Cause again, from your own study you posted, it questioned its relevance in humans and had only one person ever believed to have actually had it. Just one. Out of 7 billion people. Probably not something most are gonna ever pay attention to.
You keep insisting the case-study I posted represents the entire species of mycoplasmas that have infected humans.... lol
Oh and before you depart, take a look at the big picture....
Do you even know what "the etiology of the symptoms in any of these cases can be traced to an underlying pathology" means????
This thread is merely one example of a person being diagnosed with "CFS" -- a disease with "no cure & no treatment".... when in actuality, every symptom he's experiencing is a direct result of an underlying pathology.
~
No, the symptoms he's experiencing are the result of being afflicted with the very real condition CFS.
I care not about the other mycoplasmas, since there was only ONE that I am debating with you against; which is the one YOU started this thread with diagnosing the patient with, namely a hemotrophic mycoplasma, which quite simply doesn't exist in humans frankly almost ever.
CFS a very common, very proven, with tons of evidence behind it to support it
CFS a very common, very proven, with tons of evidence behind it to support it
You know what's very commonly known by physicians about "CFS"????
There is no definite serology, histology, hematology or pathology defined for the disease. -- which makes a diagnosis of "CFS" a convenient way for physicians to stop looking for the true etiology of the symptoms.
you specifically stated that you'd strongly argue the patient was suffering from a hemotrophic bacteria, yes, that's what you specified.
I care not about the other mycoplasmas, since there was only ONE that I am debating with you against; which is the one YOU started this thread with diagnosing the patient with, namely a hemotrophic mycoplasma, which quite simply doesn't exist in humans frankly almost ever.
I care not about the other mycoplasmas, since there was only ONE that I am debating with you against; which is the one YOU started this thread with diagnosing the patient with, namely a hemotrophic mycoplasma, which quite simply doesn't exist in humans frankly almost ever.
It's blatantly obvious by your statement that you didn't even search to see what rickettsia are.... rofl
So hemotrophic bacteria don't exist in humans?
Ever hear of tick-borne rickettsial diseases?
Here.... educate yourself:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5504a1.htm
https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/NnirJhor/rickettsia-38550510
I care not about the other mycoplasmas, since there was only ONE that I am debating with you against; which is the one YOU started this thread with diagnosing the patient with, namely a hemotrophic mycoplasma, which quite simply doesn't exist in humans frankly almost ever.
It's blatantly obvious by your statement that you didn't even search to see what rickettsia are.... rofl
So hemotrophic bacteria don't exist in humans?
Ever hear of tick-borne rickettsial diseases?
Here.... educate yourself:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5504a1.htm
https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/NnirJhor/rickettsia-38550510
And since I've already described the mechanism by which the hemotrophic bacteria compromise the immune system, I'm just gonna leave this here....
Nihon Rinsho. 2007 Jun;65(6):991-6.
[Viral infections in chronic fatigue syndrome].
[Article in Japanese]
Sairenji T1, Nagata K.
Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a heterogeneous illness in which patients can have different, overlapping signs and symptoms. No single underlying cause has been established for all CFS patients. Epidemiological studies reveal that a flu-like sickness precedes the onset in the majority of cases. The major hypothesis of the pathogenesis of CFS is that infectious agents such as viruses, may trigger and lead to chronic activation of the immune system with abnormal regulation of cytokine production. Many studies have been performed to identify the possible microbial triggers and to understand the epidemiological microbial agents. We have summarized the recent progressive literature of virus, rickettsia, and mycoplasma implicated in the pathogenesis of CFS. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17561687(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbrotherword.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F07%2FBrotherWord-Can-You-Hear-Me-Now.png&hash=348c768d69141e5ace6b0f5a3a3bebe5)
Which one of these five is Rickettsia?
the patient in question appears to have had their CFS brought on by their Rickettsia.
the patient in question appears to have had their CFS brought on by their Rickettsia.
So take away the mycoplasma & rickettsia.... and what happens to the "CFS", since it can't be treated and has no cure?
Isn't it ironic how the physiological manifestations of mycoplasma & rickettsia infection can be treated.... but CFS can't?
Cause if what you say they have can be treated, yet the patient doesn't get better, then it lends credibility to cfs instead of the originating disorder.
lmao at you now saying "Oh who cares if it's hemotropic or not", your walking that back,when it's literally been what I've been debating you on since the beginning lol. Too damn funny!! But at least we can put that ridiculousness behind us lol.
lmao at you now saying "Oh who cares if it's hemotropic or not", your walking that back,when it's literally been what I've been debating you on since the beginning lol. Too damn funny!! But at least we can put that ridiculousness behind us lol.
Yes it was merely speculation [do you want a prize now?] that the mycoplasma and/rickettsia in question were hemotrophic -- which is why I wanted to know his RBC/WBC values.... but hemotrophic or not.... the net effect of mycoplasma/rickettsia infection on the immune system is the same.
And who are you to say my assumption was ridiculous?
You act as though I was completely off-base.
So out of 17-confirmed strains of mycoplasmas in humans.... there's no way you know this particular species is [not] hemotrophic.
Nonetheless, it's irrelevant because the net effect on the immune system is the same.
Cause if what you say they have can be treated, yet the patient doesn't get better, then it lends credibility to cfs instead of the originating disorder.
No.... the reason the patient isn't getting better has absolutely nothing to do with CFS. He's not getting better because the physician hasn't used the correct treatment protocol for the mycoplasma/rickettsia infection.
Eradicate the infection.... no more "CFS".
There are only 5 that are hemotropic
and I posted them for you.
(not hemotrophic)
I considered the likelihood of that being what the patient suffered from to be ridiculous because it is rarer beyond rare (to where almost NOTHING is written on it) and there was zero reason to believe that's what the patient had (specifically a hemotropic cause).
And it's not irrelevant, because it's one of the biggest things we were arguing about. You were claiming a hemotropic cause, I was saying such a diagnosis was ridiculous because of how rare it is in humans for that to be the case. When you were presented with the facts and the lightbulb went off in your head that you may be wrong, you have now tried to dismiss it altogether.
Fact is, you were wrong
It wasn't hemotropic in origin
The reason the patient isn't getting better has everything to do with CFS. And you don't think the patient was treated for the mycoplasma and rickettsia infection? You think the doctor hasn't done this, after treating the patient for years and giving the diagnosis of those infections to begin with? For what possible reason can you find the doctor to be so incompetent, to have such little credibility? That he could diagnose a patient with those infections and then treat that patient for years, but not actually be treating them for those infections? Pretty sure that doctor would be pretty offended at your accusations. And there's such little information to go by, as far as what the doctor has tried, that it's a ridiculous conclusion to leap to imo. Instead, it makes FAR more sense that the doctor did exactly that; treated the patient for those infections; and tried to cure the patient for years already, but after many tests and many protocols, and seeing the patient still having marked and debilitating symptoms, has now concluded that the infections triggered CFS. THAT is why the patient is not getting better.
Can you please tell me more about these "hemotrophic bacteria"? I'm intrigued because, as a medical microbiologist, I've never come across such an entity.
one thing most cfs sufferers have in common, is
excerpt from:
Infectious Diseases as the Underlying Cause of CFS
by Kent Holtorf, M.D.
Numerous studies have demonstrated a high incidence of chronic infections in chronic fatigue syndrome. These include viral infections of Epstein Barr (EBV), cytomegalovirus (CMV), human herpes virus-6, (HHV-6), and bacterial infections such as mycoplasma, chlamydia pneumonia (CP) and Borrelia burgdorferi (Lyme disease).
A study published in Acta Pathologica, Microbiologica et Immunologica Scandinavica found that 52% of CFS patients had active mycoplamsa infection, 30.5% had active HHV-6 infection, and 7.5% had Chlamydia pneumonia infections vs. only 6%, 9% and 1% of controls, respectively.
Another study published in the Journal Immunology and Medical Microbiology also confirmed there is a high incidence of active mycoplasma infection among European CFS patients. It was revealed that 68% of these patients had an active mycoplasma infection as diagnosed with specialized polymerase chain reaction (PCR) testing.
Keith Diplock asked the Naked Scientists:
Is chronic Fatigue Syndrome treatable?
Pretty sure that doctor would be pretty offended at your accusations.
I would wager the patient would choose to not trust someone who claims their disease is fictitious when just a 2 second Google search proves that premise false. Anyone can learn in 10 seconds flat that it is established fact that cfs is real. I'd love to see how you'd be able to overcome the mountains of evidence, facts, studies, absolute proof, of its existence. It's fact that it's real. Fact. Or lemme guess, you're smarter than allllllllll those doctors and scientists and authors of studies that proved it, and you've done your own studies and have your own mountains of evidence that prove all the facts wrong right? We're supposed to believe you're that brilliant and capable and have put in the effort and done the studies that proved allllllllll of them wrong right? Or, are you just some dude sittin on his arm chair who did none of that, who has no evidence to the contrary, has done no studies nor has any credibility whatsoever in claiming it false in spite of mountains of facts available at anyone's fingertips based on real studies, from real scientists, doctors, and methods, that show it to be indisputable fact.... Hmmm, I wonder which end of the equation it is lol. I'll leave it to the patient to arrive at their own conclusion...Keith Diplock asked the Naked Scientists:
Is chronic Fatigue Syndrome treatable?
Yes, the symptoms of mycoplasma and rickettsia infection are treatable.
Your physician needs to change the treatment protocol instead of blaming the symptoms on a fictitious disease with no cure.
I'd like to help, although there's not enough patient/treatment data to work with.
I guess it really doesn't matter since your either not reading this, or just not responding.
~
I would wager the patient would choose to not trust someone who claims their disease is fictitious when just a 2 second Google search proves that premise false. Anyone can learn in 10 seconds flat that it is established fact that cfs is real. I'd love to see how you'd be able to overcome the mountains of evidence, facts, studies, absolute proof, of its existence. It's fact that it's real. Fact. Or lemme guess, you're smarter than allllllllll those doctors and scientists and authors of studies that proved it, and you've done your own studies and have your own mountains of evidence that prove all the facts wrong right? We're supposed to believe you're that brilliant and capable and have put in the effort and done the studies that proved allllllllll of them wrong right? Or, are you just some dude sittin on his arm chair who did none of that, who has no evidence to the contrary, has done no studies nor has any credibility whatsoever in claiming it false in spite of mountains of facts available at anyone's fingertips based on real studies, from real scientists, doctors, and methods, that show it to be indisputable fact.... Hmmm, I wonder which end of the equation it is lol. I'll leave it to the patient to arrive at their own conclusion...
Fictitious disease lmao. Oh, that's rich!
I encourage anyone who doesn't know to do that 2 second Google search. I invite you to do it and see the mountains of facts proving it and the plethora of studies that have been done. Facts matter. Always. The facts state indisputably that cfs is real. End of discussion.
End of discussion.
Fact is, you were wrong
It wasn't hemotropic in origin
Eliminate the underlying pathology.... buh bye "CFS"
Keith Diplock asked the Naked Scientists:
Is chronic Fatigue Syndrome treatable?
In a separate study, Lerner et al found that in CFS patients with elevated IgG antibody against CMV, treatment with the intravenous antiviral ganciclovir, which has a more broad spectrum coverage than Valtrex and anti-CMV activity, resulted in 72% of patients returning to their premorbid health states (total resolution of symptoms).
Beyond Tired: Is chronic fatigue syndrome a real medical condition? Yes, according to a report from the Institute of Medicine, which urges physicians to treat it accordingly.
Chronic fatigue syndrome is a "serious, debilitating" condition with a cluster of clear physical symptoms — not a psychological illness — a panel of experts reported Tuesday as it called for more research into a disease that may affect as many as 2.5 million Americans.
While Zeineh and his colleagues had expected to see damage to the white matter, they were surprised to find an abnormality in a bundle of nerve fibers in the right hemispheres of patients with CFS.
Jose G. Montoya, MD, professor of medicine, infectious diseases, and geographic medicine, Stanford University Medical Center, who heads Stanford's ME/CFS Initiative, told Medscape Medical News, "Obviously, the first thing you have to do is to see that it's real. That's not even a question for me anymore. Once you see that it's real, it's a matter of having the right technology...and a multidisciplinary approach."
More importantly, the IOM report validated the message patient and advocacy groups had been pushing for decades -- that ME/CFS is a debilitating, multisystemic, medical illness.
Fictitious disease lmao. Oh, that's rich!
One thing you still see even in his study, however, even in all the references within his study, is that THEY ALL REGARD CFS AS A REAL DISORDER.
Fictitious disease lmao. Oh, that's rich!One thing you still see even in his study, however, even in all the references within his study, is that THEY ALL REGARD CFS AS A REAL DISORDER.
Any "disease" with no histology, no serology, no hematology, no pathology, and no etiology.... isn't a disease at all.
Funny how 72-percent of the CFS patients had complete & total resolution of their "non-curable" symptoms....
After treating the underlying pathology!
Wake up.
It's all bs dude.
If 72% of all cfs patients could be healed by such a simple therapy, the whole world would know if by now.
BMJ 2006;333:575
Post-infective and chronic fatigue syndromes precipitated by viral and non-viral pathogens: prospective cohort study
"Numerous studies have demonstrated a high incidence of active Mycoplasma infection in CFS and FM. Nijs et al published a study in the Journal Immunology and Medical Microbiology entitled High Prevalence of Mycoplasma infections among European Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Patients demonstrated that 68% of CFS patients had an active mycoplasma infection"
"A study published in the International Journal of Medicine Biology Environment tested the blood of 565 CFS and/or FM patients vs. 71 healthy controls. They found 53.1% of patients were positive for mycoplasmal infection vs. only 7 out of 71 controls and 24.6% of patients had an M. fermentans infection vs. 2.8% of normals."
"A study by Nasralla et al published in the European Journal of Clinical Microbiology & Infectious Disease entitled Multiple Mycoplasmal Infections Detected in Blood of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia Syndrome Patients investigated the presence of different mycoplasmal species in blood samples from mycoplasma positive patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and/or Fibromyalgia. They found that the majority of patients had multiple species of mycoplasmal infections, with 59% of patients having active M. Pneumonia infections, 48% having active M fermentans infection, 31% having an active M. hominis and 20% having M pentrans."
And unless you have a reason to question the doctors credentials or intentions, I'm not sure it makes sense to mock his findings with that much fervor. There is no reason to believe the doctor isn't credible, that he didn't know what he was talking about, that he didn't already perform the necessary tests and have the necessary due diligence.
Diagnosing patients with "CFS" is simply baseless medicine. There's always an underlying pathology.
Can you please tell me more about these "hemotrophic bacteria"? I'm intrigued because, as a medical microbiologist, I've never come across such an entity.
With fleas, ticks, mosquitoes, cats and sexual transmission being the most common vectors of mycoplasma infections.... it would appear that the majority of "CFS" patients have active mycoplasma and/or rickettsial infections that are either going undiagnosed due to lack of detection by polymerase chain reaction diagnostics.... or it's a matter of unsuccessful treatment. Coinfection could be a plausible factor as well - just like it was in this case.
With fleas, ticks, mosquitoes, cats and sexual transmission being the most common vectors of mycoplasma infections.... it would appear that the majority of "CFS" patients have active mycoplasma and/or rickettsial infections that are either going undiagnosed due to lack of detection by polymerase chain reaction diagnostics.... or it's a matter of unsuccessful treatment. Coinfection could be a plausible factor as well - just like it was in this case.
https://youtu.be/2XMD_ZoMvUY (https://youtu.be/2XMD_ZoMvUY)
you're talking about the solution and catalyst for CFS being something that could be eradicated in 6-8 weeks. And you just can't escape the simple, solid, irrefutable logic that if the culprit was something that would only take 6-8 weeks to prove as to whether fact or fiction, that by now there would be countless studies that showed it to be true, and it would be regarded medically by now as fact, and would by now by far be the treatment protocol recommended by the overwhelming majority of doctors trained in CFS. But that's not the reality we see, now is it. You can't escape that simple logic. That something that only takes 6-8 weeks to eradicate would by now have had millions cured and countless studies to prove its legitimacy. But yet that's not what we see. And it's because that's not what we see that we know that you're wrong. That an inescapable conclusion.
a video of 2 cherry picked patients that were exceptions
but no, it's not due to rickettsia or whatever, at least in the overwhelming majority of cases
"Numerous studies have demonstrated a high incidence of active Mycoplasma infection in CFS and FM. Nijs et al published a study in the Journal Immunology and Medical Microbiology entitled High Prevalence of Mycoplasma infections among European Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Patients demonstrated that 68% of CFS patients had an active mycoplasma infection"
"A study by Nasralla et al published in the European Journal of Clinical Microbiology & Infectious Disease entitled Multiple Mycoplasmal Infections Detected in Blood of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia Syndrome Patients investigated the presence of different mycoplasmal species in blood samples from mycoplasma positive patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and/or Fibromyalgia. They found that the majority of patients had multiple species of mycoplasmal infections, with 59% of patients having active M. Pneumonia infections, 48% having active M fermentans infection, 31% having an active M. hominis and 20% having M pentrans (43)."
"A study entitled Diagnosis and Treatment of Chronic Mycoplasmal Infections in Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Relationship to Gulf War Illness published in Biomedical Therapy investigated the presence of active mycoplasmal infection by forensic PCR in patients with CFS and/or FM vs. controls. They found that 63% of CFS/FM patients had active mycoplasmal species infection compared to 9% of normals and more specifically the incidence of active Mycoplasma fermentans infection was 50% in CFS/FM patients vs. 0% of controls"
"A study published in the International Journal of Medicine Biology Environment tested the blood of 565 CFS and/or FM patients vs. 71 healthy controls. They found 53.1% of patients were positive for mycoplasmal infection vs. only 7 out of 71 controls and 24.6% of patients had an M. fermentans infection vs. 2.8% of normals"
you're talking about the solution and catalyst for CFS being something that could be eradicated in 6-8 weeks. And you just can't escape the simple, solid, irrefutable logic that if the culprit was something that would only take 6-8 weeks to prove as to whether fact or fiction, that by now there would be countless studies that showed it to be true, and it would be regarded medically by now as fact, and would by now by far be the treatment protocol recommended by the overwhelming majority of doctors trained in CFS. But that's not the reality we see, now is it. You can't escape that simple logic. That something that only takes 6-8 weeks to eradicate would by now have had millions cured and countless studies to prove its legitimacy. But yet that's not what we see. And it's because that's not what we see that we know that you're wrong. That an inescapable conclusion.
Your blatant inability to comprehend elementary medicine speaks volumes.... but I'll try this again regardless:
You think physicians are routinely ordering polymerase chain reaction diagnostics to detect chronic mycoplasma and/or rickettsia infections in "CFS" patients????
..... rofl
a video of 2 cherry picked patients that were exceptions
but no, it's not due to rickettsia or whatever, at least in the overwhelming majority of cases
lol.... take your head out of the sand:Quote"Numerous studies have demonstrated a high incidence of active Mycoplasma infection in CFS and FM. Nijs et al published a study in the Journal Immunology and Medical Microbiology entitled High Prevalence of Mycoplasma infections among European Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Patients demonstrated that 68% of CFS patients had an active mycoplasma infection"
"A study by Nasralla et al published in the European Journal of Clinical Microbiology & Infectious Disease entitled Multiple Mycoplasmal Infections Detected in Blood of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia Syndrome Patients investigated the presence of different mycoplasmal species in blood samples from mycoplasma positive patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and/or Fibromyalgia. They found that the majority of patients had multiple species of mycoplasmal infections, with 59% of patients having active M. Pneumonia infections, 48% having active M fermentans infection, 31% having an active M. hominis and 20% having M pentrans (43)."
"A study entitled Diagnosis and Treatment of Chronic Mycoplasmal Infections in Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Relationship to Gulf War Illness published in Biomedical Therapy investigated the presence of active mycoplasmal infection by forensic PCR in patients with CFS and/or FM vs. controls. They found that 63% of CFS/FM patients had active mycoplasmal species infection compared to 9% of normals and more specifically the incidence of active Mycoplasma fermentans infection was 50% in CFS/FM patients vs. 0% of controls"
"A study published in the International Journal of Medicine Biology Environment tested the blood of 565 CFS and/or FM patients vs. 71 healthy controls. They found 53.1% of patients were positive for mycoplasmal infection vs. only 7 out of 71 controls and 24.6% of patients had an M. fermentans infection vs. 2.8% of normals"
You can't have a disease as significant and prevalent as CFS
It's hilarious to me how you continue to quote these cherry picked bs studies.
CFS is very real, and hopefully someday will be better understood and be able to be cured
You think physicians are routinely ordering polymerase chain reaction diagnostics to detect chronic mycoplasma and/or rickettsia infections in "CFS" patients????..... rofl
Of course they're not ordering these tests routinely.
Why don't you take a step back and try and see if you can't figure out just why that is...
My son has two strains of rickettsia and mycoplasma
We have been on the treatment for three years
my son just isn't getting any better.
A baseless diagnosis of a disease with no treatment and no cure - following 3-years of failed attempts at eradicating a mycoplasma/rickettsia infection is flat out reprehensible.
Hopefully the author will look for another physician. His son shouldn't have to suffer as a result of treatment inadequacy and he certainly doesn't need to hear that he's stuck with a disease that can't be cured.... when all of his symptoms are [directly] attributed to his mycoplasma/rickettsia infection.
CFS and GWS are pathologic evidences of toxic air pollution exposure
In other words, toxic aerosols (particulate matter) in air may
generates symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome.
The environment is causing theses disorders.
The environment is causing theses disorders.
...... No.
Don't believe me, believe in scientific evidences:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12700181
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3759935/
Neither of those studies implicate toxic air pollution in the etiology/pathogenesis of CFS.
Now would you like to compare your compiled "evidence" to mine?
~
There's substantial evidences PM2.5 particulate matter is causing CFS and GWS through endocrine disruption.
Post your compiled evidence showing that PM2.5 is a pathologic-factor in the majority of patients with CFS..... and I'll demonstrate how that doesn't even come [remotely] close to the overwhelming prevalence of confirmed bacterial/viral pathogenic-factors.
Bacterial/viral pathogenic factors are components of toxic air pollution (PM2.5).
Neither of those studies implicate toxic air pollution in the etiology/pathogenesis of CFS.
Post your compiled evidence showing that PM2.5 is a pathologic-factor in the majority of patients with CFS.... and I'll demonstrate how that doesn't even come [remotely] close to the overwhelming prevalence of confirmed bacterial/viral pathogenic-factors.
Neither of those studies implicate toxic air pollution in the etiology/pathogenesis of CFS.
I disagree.
Endocrine disruptors are implicated in the pathogenesis of CFS.
There is a serious lack of information on the potential nanoparticle hazard to human health, particularly on their possible toxic effects on the endocrine system. This topic is of primary importance since the disruption of endocrine functions is associated with severe adverse effects on human health
QuoteThere is a serious lack of information on the potential nanoparticle hazard to human health, particularly on their possible toxic effects on the endocrine system. This topic is of primary importance since the disruption of endocrine functions is associated with severe adverse effects on human health
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3759935/
a high prevalence of PM2.5 exposure in CFS patients
hypothesis.
Is nanoparticle-based endocrine disruption triggering bacterial/viral infections?
The role of PM2.5 in the pathogenesis of CFS must be asserted.
CFS is a factitious syndrome that is commonly applied when the modality of the symptoms are unknown. I'd argue that your son's chronic exhaustion is primarily due to the hemotrophic bacteria's effects on his immune system. Have you had a metabolic panel performed? What are his WBC/RBC values? How's his liver function?How is your baby now?
There's substantial evidences PM2.5 particulate matter is causing CFS and GWS
Please keep posts relevant to a thread, rather than random comments.CFS is a factitious syndrome that is commonly applied when the modality of the symptoms are unknown. I'd argue that your son's chronic exhaustion is primarily due to the hemotrophic bacteria's effects on his immune system. Have you had a metabolic panel performed? What are his WBC/RBC values? How's his liver function?How is your baby now?
Still waiting for you to post the "substantial evidences"....
PM2.5 is a endocrine disruptor; Exposure to nanomaterials may induce neuroendocrine response and CFS.
http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/75315
CFS is merely a broad term used to categorize a wide-ranging group of symptoms with multifactorial etiologies between patients.
CFS is merely a broad term used to categorize a wide-ranging group of symptoms with multifactorial etiologies between patients.
"Psychiatric diagnoses explaining the chronic fatigue were identified in 74% of patients and physical disorders were diagnosed in 7% of patients.
"We conclude that most patients with a chief complaint of chronic fatigue, including those exhibiting the features of CFS, suffer from standard mood, anxiety and/or somatoform disorders."
~
A baseless diagnosis of a disease with no treatment and no cure - following 3-years of failed attempts at eradicating a mycoplasma/rickettsia infection is flat out reprehensible.
Hopefully the author will look for another physician. His son shouldn't have to suffer as a result of treatment inadequacy and he certainly doesn't need to hear that he's stuck with a disease that can't be cured.... when all of his symptoms are [directly] attributed to his mycoplasma/rickettsia infection.
CFS is a factitious syndrome that is commonly applied when the modality of the symptoms are unknown.
Whether the mycoplasma & rickettsia are hemotrophic or not, is a moot point because the net result on the immune system is the same.
Take away the mycoplasma & rickettsia, and what happens to the "CFS"...... since it can't be treated and has no cure?
Isn't it ironic how the physiological manifestations of mycoplasma & rickettsia infection can be treated.... but CFS can't?
Despite the fact that the clinical diagnosis of "CFS" will always be there for the physician who can't [or won't] give their patients any more answers.... "CFS" remains factitious because the etiology of the symptoms in any of these cases can be traced to an underlying pathology.
You know what else is real about "CFS" other than the wide-scope of symptoms and interindividual variables?
There is no definite serology, histology, hematology or pathology defined for the disease.
Thus, a diagnosis of "CFS" is factitious, as it only arises when a physician is either incompetent or flat-out lazy. There's always an underlying pathology.... and yes, the symptoms can be remediated once it's discovered and treated accordingly.
QuoteBMJ 2006;333:575
Post-infective and chronic fatigue syndromes precipitated by viral and non-viral pathogens: prospective cohort study
PFS --> Post-infective Fatigue Syndrome would be a more appropriate name for "CFS".... one where there is actually a defined etiology of the patient's symptoms. Again, whether it be viral, bacterial, immunological, ect.... eradicate the underlying pathology.... goodbye CFS [or PFS for that matter].
CFS is merely a broad term used to categorize a wide-ranging group of symptoms with multifactorial etiologies between patients.
Despite the fact that the clinical diagnosis of "CFS" will always be there for the physician who can't [or won't] give their patients any more answers.... "CFS" remains factitious because the etiology of the symptoms in any of these cases can be traced to an underlying pathology.
A good treatment may be exersise. Cardio vascular exersise may help reset the misfiring immune system.Graded exercise therapy has been an article of faith among clinicians for decades, but it frequently makes the patients worse, and precipitates another relapse. NICE have recently acknowledged this, and the new guidelines currently in draft advise against GET:
It does say an increace rather than outright banning it. It also references" staying within energy envelope" which does not rule out exersise. I specifically referenced cardio exersise, such things as swimming or cycling may me good, but running jumping and anything that requires short burst of energy may me bad. Don't overdo it either.A good treatment may be exersise. Cardio vascular exersise may help reset the misfiring immune system.Graded exercise therapy has been an article of faith among clinicians for decades, but it frequently makes the patients worse, and precipitates another relapse. NICE have recently acknowledged this, and the new guidelines currently in draft advise against GET:
"Because of the harms reported by people with ME/CFS, as well as the committee’s own experience of the effects when people exceed their energy limits, the draft guideline says that any programme based on fixed incremental increases in physical activity or exercise, for example graded exercise therapy (GET) should not be offered for the treatment of ME/CFS.
Instead, it highlights the importance of ensuring that people remain in their ‘energy envelope’ when undertaking activity of any kind and recommends that a physical activity programme, in particular, should only be considered for people with ME/CFS in specific circumstances."
https://www.nice.org.uk/news/article/nice-draft-guidance-addresses-the-continuing-debate-about-the-best-approach-to-the-diagnosis-and-management-of-me-cfs
Improving your fitness specifically entails exceeding your current fitness level, that's how training works.It does say an increace rather than outright banning it. It also references" staying within energy envelope" which does not rule out exersise. I specifically referenced cardio exersise, such things as swimming or cycling may me good, but running jumping and anything that requires short burst of energy may me bad. Don't overdo it either.A good treatment may be exersise. Cardio vascular exersise may help reset the misfiring immune system.Graded exercise therapy has been an article of faith among clinicians for decades, but it frequently makes the patients worse, and precipitates another relapse. NICE have recently acknowledged this, and the new guidelines currently in draft advise against GET:
"Because of the harms reported by people with ME/CFS, as well as the committee’s own experience of the effects when people exceed their energy limits, the draft guideline says that any programme based on fixed incremental increases in physical activity or exercise, for example graded exercise therapy (GET) should not be offered for the treatment of ME/CFS.
Instead, it highlights the importance of ensuring that people remain in their ‘energy envelope’ when undertaking activity of any kind and recommends that a physical activity programme, in particular, should only be considered for people with ME/CFS in specific circumstances."
https://www.nice.org.uk/news/article/nice-draft-guidance-addresses-the-continuing-debate-about-the-best-approach-to-the-diagnosis-and-management-of-me-cfs
Training, but not exersise. Any parent with young children will tell you they never stop, but this exersise and activity is anaerobic not cardio that ups your metabolism. A nice gentle exersise ups your breathing, heart rate and metabolism without causing strain.Improving your fitness specifically entails exceeding your current fitness level, that's how training works.It does say an increace rather than outright banning it. It also references" staying within energy envelope" which does not rule out exersise. I specifically referenced cardio exersise, such things as swimming or cycling may me good, but running jumping and anything that requires short burst of energy may me bad. Don't overdo it either.A good treatment may be exersise. Cardio vascular exersise may help reset the misfiring immune system.Graded exercise therapy has been an article of faith among clinicians for decades, but it frequently makes the patients worse, and precipitates another relapse. NICE have recently acknowledged this, and the new guidelines currently in draft advise against GET:
"Because of the harms reported by people with ME/CFS, as well as the committee’s own experience of the effects when people exceed their energy limits, the draft guideline says that any programme based on fixed incremental increases in physical activity or exercise, for example graded exercise therapy (GET) should not be offered for the treatment of ME/CFS.
Instead, it highlights the importance of ensuring that people remain in their ‘energy envelope’ when undertaking activity of any kind and recommends that a physical activity programme, in particular, should only be considered for people with ME/CFS in specific circumstances."
https://www.nice.org.uk/news/article/nice-draft-guidance-addresses-the-continuing-debate-about-the-best-approach-to-the-diagnosis-and-management-of-me-cfs
To improve your fitness you exercise a little beyond your current fitness level, which causes damage to the muscle fibres at a microscopic level, then when you rest afterwards the damage is repaired, and repaired to a better standard than it was before it occurred. You then repeat the exercise/rest cycle, and the cumulative improvements are what you experience as getting fitter. If you don't exercise beyond your current fitness level your fitness doesn't improve because you're not creating any demand for better fitness. Conversely, if you do too much exercise at one go, or don't rest enough between sessions, then there isn't time for your body to recover before the next session, and as the unrepaired damage accumulates you descend into fatigue, and lose fitness instead of gaining it.
In order to gain fitness you have to both be able to exceed your current exercise level a little without ill effect, and recover after an exercise session, which I think is what CFS patients can't do.
Training, but not exersise. Any parent with young children will tell you they never stop, but this exersise and activity is anaerobic not cardio that ups your metabolism. A nice gentle exersise ups your breathing, heart rate and metabolism without causing strain.I don't see what you're getting at. Training or exercise, call it what you will, the CFS patients need to improve their fitness, and that's what they can't do. Children don't stop? Of course they do, generally when they feel tired. By 'cardio' you mean aerobic? A properly balanced training program needs to include both aerobic and anaerobic. What do you mean by strain? If you exercise too little your fitness declines, exercise enough and your fitness is maintained, but if you need to build more fitness that entails doing a bit more than usual. Call it strain or whatever you like, you won't get any fitter unless you can demonstrate to your body that it's not already fit enough, because unused fitness is an expensive waste of your body's energy.
I amTraining, but not exersise. Any parent with young children will tell you they never stop, but this exersise and activity is anaerobic not cardio that ups your metabolism. A nice gentle exersise ups your breathing, heart rate and metabolism without causing strain.I don't see what you're getting at. Training or exercise, call it what you will, the CFS patients need to improve their fitness, and that's what they can't do. Children don't stop? Of course they do, generally when they feel tired. By 'cardio' you mean aerobic? A properly balanced training program needs to include both aerobic and anaerobic. What do you mean by strain? If you exercise too little your fitness declines, exercise enough and your fitness is maintained, but if you need to build more fitness that entails doing a bit more than usual. Call it strain or whatever you like, you won't get any fitter unless you can demonstrate to your body that it's not already fit enough, because unused fitness is an expensive waste of your body's energy.
getting atthe fact they need to channel their anaerobic exercise into a more gentle and sustained aerobic exercise of cardiovascular nature.
But the point I'm getting at is that I think you'll find that the amount of exercise required to improve their fitness is greater than the amount of exercise that makes their condition worse. They're in a catch-22. Your point of view is precisely what's been driving clinicians for years, as normally exercise is the obvious way to improve fitness and energy levels, but NICE has now advised against it because history is littered with patients who have been made worse by it. I think they've had an exasperating time trying to get anyone to listen to them.I did not say improve fitness, I said cardiovascular exersise.
Cardiovascular exercise to what end?Simply raising the metabolism and circulation . Why do your feet go cold when you are stationary yet are warm when you do sustained exersise.
A higher metabolic rate is the product of higher fitness, which is in turn a product of exercise. Your body doesn't burn energy needlessly, because that would reduce it's survival ability.Ok, you are correct. I am wrong. There is nothing you can do. Put them out to pasture and wait for doomsday.
CFS patients are chronically fatigued and unable to sustain activity, anything that amounts to an improvement in their lot also amounts to an improvement in fitness.
The absence of an effective treatment doesn't constitute a justification for doing something that's known to be harmful. That would be like a covid patient following Trump's advice to drink bleach on the grounds that he doesn't have any effective drugs.A higher metabolic rate is the product of higher fitness, which is in turn a product of exercise. Your body doesn't burn energy needlessly, because that would reduce it's survival ability.Ok, you are correct. I am wrong. There is nothing you can do. Put them out to pasture and wait for doomsday.
CFS patients are chronically fatigued and unable to sustain activity, anything that amounts to an improvement in their lot also amounts to an improvement in fitness.