Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: thedoc on 16/04/2012 13:59:48
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That's quite some thought & I look forward to some learned answers & discussion on this. Hopefully some of it will be in language I may be able to follow.
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I have been doing a little more thinking about the collapse process inside a rotating black hole.
This is how I visualise it.
There will be an initial ellipsoidal (or maybe discoidal) collapse which will become toroidal as "viscosity" drags the still center out and gives it angular momentum. As the collapse to a ring continues residual angular momenum about the ring will cause it to rotate like a smoke ring and again the residual still centre of the torus will be evacuated. so the final stucture is a rotating toroidal membrane which allows residual angular momentum in all dimensions to be accommadated
Does anyone have information on the gravitational fields of toroidal objects or toroidal membranes?
Learn, create, test and tell
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Sorry Ian but your just to damn clever for most of us.
The most most of us can do in response to your question is smile. We've got more chance of being travoltered by a beam of light from space(What was that film) than helping you on this one .[:)]
Even so it's great having you on the forum answering our question's.
Michael HAPPY NEW YEAR (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa186%2Fukmicky%2Fparty-smiley-012.gif&hash=844994fd61764508c533537d6874634d)
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I appreciate that not many of the contibutors to this page are likely to have the knowledge and experience to help directly but they do get around the web a lot like me and the more eyes looking for a useful site where I can get more information or pose this question to a real expert the more likely I am to find one.
The administrators of this site also have reasonably current contacts into the university and may be able to introduce me to someone who is an expert who is interested in this question.
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
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I find your topic very interesting, and in fact offer quite a different insight of how to view the space time, the points you stated are valid !
Please post more.
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Tell me, use your super-computer.... your brain ....
What if two such ring universes interact when they are close by ?
John Tsang
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Ian, I know you probably winced in pain when you saw that I had replied here but it's only to echo Eths and Michaels sentiments.....I've tried to keep well away from this thread.....we need GSMOLLIN and SOLVAY on this one.
Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
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Two ring singularities will occasionally clash as two rotating black holes merge there could well be a sequence of such clashes as the merge. what might happen could be similar to some of the brane based cosmologies where the big bang came from a mentary clash of two multidimensinal membranes.
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evolution rules in all things
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How about the direction of rotation, what happen if one of it is up and the other is down, and getting close by, would they expulse each other in some form ?
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I would love to see what would happen if two evenly matched blackholes colided with each other head on at speed. Could a singularity be destroyed and spew its guts into space
Michael
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No they should just form a bigger black hole any spectacular stuff will be hidden behind the event horizon
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Is there any configuration of materail structure, in any form of rotation would create an expulsion effect?
I would guess things link Saturn ring would create somewhat a repulsion effect on another planet with a reverse turning ring, say distributed more evenly in great space arount the planet ...
And rotating torus BH may be ????
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And I suspect a rotation Hole would have a draft in gravitation , more or less in spiral form around it's surrounding space that any matter getting close would be dragged 'sideway' while it more down the hole.
Moreover, if tow such hole gstting together, and it's rotation axis is reverse, the effect should be more fun than just dropping into each others .....
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The centrifugal force that comes from the angular momenum and the attracrion due to gravity is the expulsion effect but it is exactly baanved over the orbit.
Kook up Kerr black holes for more details of the standard theories. what I am talking about does not go against these in any way it just looks in much more detail at the process of the material that is collapsing towards forming the singularity as it collapses over a signoficant period of time
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evolution rules in all things
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I should clarify my question, the ditribution of material in space around the hole, carries energy, in the form of angular momentum, could be exchange while the two hole / celestrial body approaching, in case of dense distribution, and when the bodies are quite far from each others.
Could there be a point when this exchange overcome the gravitaion ?
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Of course, I should carry out some calculation to find out.
However in space observation, when two spiral galacy collide, would they pass thru each others directly without any effect of expulsion ? I shall take a look.
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Sorry to post some quote here, could be related: universetoday.com/am/publish/podcast_galactic_exiles.html?2712006
Dr. Warren Brown: What we discovered are two stars in the far out regions of the Milky Way that are traveling at speeds that no one has ever really seen stars in our galaxy, at least stars outside of the galactic centre. Except that these stars are hundreds of thousands of light years away from the galactic centre. And yet, the only plausible explanation for their velocity is that they were ejected by the supermassive black hole at the centre of the galaxy.
Fraser: So they strayed too close to the supermassive black hole and were kind of kicked out?
Brown: Yeah, so here's the picture. This scenario requires three bodies, and astronomers say that the most likely way that it happened is if you have a pair of stars. As you may be aware, something like half the stars in the sky are actually systems containing a pair, or sometimes more stars. And so if you have a tightly bound pair of stars that, for some reason, travel too close to the supermassive black hole, at some point the black hole's gravity will exceed the binding energy between the pair of stars and rip one of those stars away. It'll capture the one star, but the other star then leaves the system with the orbital energy of the pair. And that's how you get this extra boost of velocity. It's that the supermassive black hole is basically able to unbind one star, capture it, and leave the other one with the entire amount of energy that the pair used to have. And that star then gets ejected right out of the galaxy.
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You lost me at about the fourth paragraph soul can u simplify it pls?
- Big T
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basically what it means is , due to the conservation of angular momentum, when a particle drops further into a Gravitation center, then some other particle must eject outward, and generate a repulsion effect.
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On the otherhand , think from the point of those particles on the ring singularity inside a rotating black hole, it would seem like he's in 4 dimension space, whereas one of the axis is at the speed of light .... don't you think so ?
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quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
I would love to see what would happen if two evenly matched blackholes colided with each other head on at speed. Could a singularity be destroyed and spew its guts into space
Michael
quote:
Originally posted by Soul Surfer
No they should just form a bigger black hole any spectacular stuff will be hidden behind the event horizon
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I can see why you would say this, but what happens to the kinetic energy?
Internally, it would no doubt simply create a lot of heat, but would you not get a violation of the conservation of energy unless we could somehow see that kinetic energy do something outside of the black hole? Will all that kinetic energy be converted to mass (i.e. the mass of the two coalesced black holes exceeding the sum of the individual masses of the black holes)?
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You've pretty well argued it out yourself. The big point is that if you have a true point singularity the potential energy that can be turned into kinetic energy is without bound but we only see the bit outside the event horizon.
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
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Ian - I've got a question about the particles. You say you expect their motion to settle down into fractal spirals. If the angles between all the particles remained constant (i.e. their motion & speeds were constant, or changing at a consistent rate), I can see that the visual effect would be similar to that of "normal" spacetime. But would that happen? To maintain a stable orbit, wouldn't the particle's distance from the centre determine its speed?
Take the example of a solar system. If all the planets were identical & by some fluke started off all lined up away from the sun, would they stay lined up with identical periods of orbit (as if stuck on the surface of a disc), or gradually move "out of phase"?
I've heard the analogy comparing the effect of a rotating black hole on spacetime with a whirlpool's effect on water. The water near the centre is moving much faster than that at the outer limit. Spacetime nearer the centre of a rotating blackhole would similarly be pulled around much faster. If the singularity was toroidal, the effect would, surely, be even more pronounced. If that were the case, then the effect would be totally different from what we see in the universe. Not all objects at the extremes of detection would be moving away as we would gradually be catching up with those that were ahead of us in their orbit; much in the same way as Earth catches up & passes planets that are further from the sun.
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I think the ring singularity would form a toroidal surface like the surface of a ring doughnut very thin and dense with the main gravitational forces normal or perpendicular to the surface and the angular momentum in each of the directions defining the size of the main ring and the loop as the particles cooled down they all end up at very similar velocities their orbital velocity is such that it is extremely close to the velocity of light
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
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So are you saying that the observable universe is just 1 tiny part of the surface? That the entire universe may be a toroidal version of Larry Niven's Ringworld?
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Dear Soul Surfer;
quote:
Note: This analysis requires No new physics, just standard relativity quantum theory and GRAVITY
The please sir, Explain to all of us the particle / energy source and pattern of this gravitational fields of force that you call standard.
"Learn the facts and go on from there, and never stop asking questions."
Admiral Rickover
If it disagrees with experiments it is wrong!"
Dr. Feymann
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Sorry: I forgot Soul surfer is not talking to Me, But Please someone out answer my question!!!!!!
So I may understand this posting
"Learn the facts and go on from there, and never stop asking questions."
Admiral Rickover
If it disagrees with experiments it is wrong!"
Dr. Feymann
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Sorry I am not sure I understand your question G-1 could you please rephrase it and put in a bit more intermediate thinking
Learn, create, test and tell
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quote:
Originally posted by Soul Surfer
Sorry I am not sure I understand your question G-1 could you please rephrase it and put in a bit more intermediate thinking
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All that I want to know is;
[ What you are calling STANDERD Gravity in your lines that says;
NOTE: This analysis requires NO new physics. Just standard relativity quantum theory and gravity.]
Also can your standerd gravity state its' orgin particle / energy source and its' field pattern.
"Learn the facts and go on from there, and never stop asking questions."
Admiral Rickover
If it disagrees with experiments it is wrong!"
Dr. Feymann
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By that I meant current, commonly accepted and experimentally verified aspects of all the physical sciences. Nothing new, so just consult a physics and mathematics textbook to find your detailed answers.
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
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I know it's 6 months late, but ...
Ian - going back to your original postings above - what about the Unruh effect (due to the centripetal acceleration) - wouldn't the particles in the toroidal structure be bathed in fairly intense heat?
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Yes, initially the temperature would go up to increedible values but this energy would probably be used to create more paritcles and thus cool the whole thing down as the particles settle down into their spiral orbits together with the photons that happen to be going the same way the particles and photons can't be going at exactly the same speed but the differences will be related to the energy differences beteeen them ie the temeperature.
I'm glad you brought this topic back because I think there ar some stirrings from the theoretical physicists in this area
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Maybe I haven't made it quite clear the thinking behind this is that is a semi classical prcess that could show that something can appear to be very small and high energy in some dimensions and be cold and large in other dimensions simultaneously.
Learn, create, test and tell
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