The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Member Map
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. Life Sciences
  3. Physiology & Medicine
  4. Do memories exist after death?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down

Do memories exist after death?

  • 50 Replies
  • 5436 Views
  • 4 Tags

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 14849
  • Activity:
    100%
  • Thanked: 1120 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #40 on: 16/11/2021 15:44:35 »
You need to distinguish between "memory", the combination of hardware and software that permits storage and recall of data, and "memories" - the data within that system. There is no doubt that babies contain the hardware and bootstrap software, but are pretty much devoid of content.

So we move on to the nature of memory. In the realm of artificial memory we use a combination of static and dynamic memory hardware, and various forms of compression and regeneration software. It is arguable that we can segment the workings of the human brain in the same way.

The development of the hippocampus in London taxi drivers has been noted and implies that longterm memory is to some extent a hardware/static element. At the other end of the scale most people can remember a 7-digit phone number for long enough to dial it, but I get the impression from watching the development of pilots' radio communication that eight or nine digits is quite a feat until you acquire some "compression software" by experience: all civilian VHF frequencies begin with 1 and although communication frequencies are allocated in 8.33 kHz steps, the display is deliberately "fudged" to the nearest 5 kHz, sea level barometric pressure is usually between 900 and 1300 kPa, transponder codes are 4-digit octal (0-7 only)....so your longterm memory says you don't need to keep the whole instruction in your short-term memory to execute it.   

Most people can sing back one line of a jazz song (usually 8 or 12 bars, sometimes 16) and that is the essence of leading a crowd chorus, but to recall a whole verse or an entire 3 minute number needs lots of repetition for a beginner. An experienced musician however seems to develop some compression-decompression mechanism that allows adequate recall of an arrangement you may have only played once, years ago.  Note "adequate": like a video image, something can get lost  in the CODEC process, but the joy of live performance is to fill in the gaps!   

So my simplistic analogy is that short-term memory, like dynamic RAM, needs to be refreshed or compressed and transferred to something more akin to static RAM. To pursue the analogy to an extreme, interruption of the refresh process would destroy the contents of dynamic RAM but static RAM decays much more slowly. Evidence? Many people with head trauma never recall the previous two minutes or so, but gradually reconfigure the stuff about names and addresses. Thus we might conclude that longterm memory involves fairly permanent chemical changes that in principle could be detected in a nonfunctional brain, even if we have no idea how to decode them.

Considering how "memory techniques" work, I guess a lot of the CODEC business is done by association and probability, which may account for witness statements often being plausible but contradictory. It also explains the difference between learned language, where we consciously study the formalised structure of a foreign tongue, and language acquired by immersion. The former often gives us a good "passive vocabulary", particularly if we can recognise similarities or have studied a common root language (like Latin) and can read a newspaper or follow a conversation,  but "active vocabulary", the ability to respond  in Klingon without compiling the sentence in English and translating it, is much harder to acquire after the age of five.

Problem is that unless you know a lot about the history and experiences of your dead brain, you won't be able to disentangle the hard molecular data that has been compressed and compiled by association. 
« Last Edit: 16/11/2021 16:03:53 by alancalverd »
Logged
helping to stem the tide of ignorance
 
The following users thanked this post: Zer0



Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 27789
  • Activity:
    92%
  • Thanked: 933 times
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #41 on: 16/11/2021 18:12:29 »
The more complicated and "embedded in the cognitive bits of the brain" memory turns out to be, the more likely it is that death erases it.
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline hamdani yusuf

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 5102
  • Activity:
    83%
  • Thanked: 183 times
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #42 on: 17/11/2021 06:16:30 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/11/2021 13:08:23
The distributed nature of the brain lead me to think that you need essentially all of it to decode any of it.
Experiments with brain cancer patients showed that memories can be lost partially. People with amnesia may lose some of memory while retain the others.
Quote
Amnesia definition, loss of a large block of interrelated memories; complete or partial loss of memory caused by brain injury, shock, etc.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/amnesia
Like many systems, some extent of modularity can make them more robust and less vulnerable to disruptions.

Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline hamdani yusuf

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 5102
  • Activity:
    83%
  • Thanked: 183 times
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #43 on: 17/11/2021 06:35:01 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/11/2021 13:08:23
A baby has life, but no memory.
It comes from the observation that children and adults don't remember events they experienced when they were babies. It doesn't remove the possibility that babies may have short term memories. They might just get lost when they grow up, and the memory space is overwritten by newer memory.
Babies may remember faces, or song, and relate them to events they are experiencing, such as feeling of comfort and warmth brought by their parents.

Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/11/2021 13:08:23
To me that suggests that the requirement for "life" is easier to meet than the requirement for "memory".
If I'm right then it's likely that any disruption to the brain which extinguished "life" would also destroy "memory".
Both are fuzzy concepts, but useful in decision making. CRISPR mechanism can be thought of as a primitive form of memory.

« Last Edit: 17/11/2021 09:55:52 by hamdani yusuf »
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline Zer0

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 902
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 86 times
  • Homo EviliUs
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #44 on: 17/11/2021 18:55:24 »
The color of my eyes, my skin tone & possibly the nose that sits on my face...All bear resemblance to my Ancestors.

Can these things be also classified as Memory?

Ps - i know I'm going astray, this OP isn't about Genetics, but aren't Seeds just a bundle of memories?
Logged
1N73LL1G3NC3  15  7H3  481L17Y  70  4D4P7  70  CH4NG3.
 



Offline evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 10429
  • Activity:
    26%
  • Thanked: 1254 times
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #45 on: 17/11/2021 19:52:27 »
Quote from: bored chemist
A baby has life, but no memory.
Studies have shown that even before birth, babies are picking up sounds from their mother, including the sounds of their "mother tongue".

This has been shown to affect the sounds that babies can distinguish after birth.

This is more in the speech processing part of the brain, rather than episodic memories, but I still count it as memory - it is still interconnections between neurons.

Quote from: Zer0
aren't Seeds just a bundle of memories?
We are certainly able to decode DNA sequences from plants, animals, ancient humans and even viruses, to an extent that was impossible in the year 1990, when the Human Genome Project was just getting underway.
- Progress during that project was exponential, with the first years devoted to improving techniques, and developing a high-level gene map that later work could fill in.
- As I understand it, after 7 years, when the planned 15-year project timetable was half used, only about 3% of the human genome had actually been decoded
- Some described it as a total waste of time, and should be abandoned
- But in fact, it was declared "finished" (for publicity purposes) 1 year ahead of schedule
- Exponential growth catches everyone by surprise!

Perhaps there will be a similar exponential progress in brain research?

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genome_Project
« Last Edit: 20/11/2021 20:48:26 by evan_au »
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: hamdani yusuf, Zer0

Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 27789
  • Activity:
    92%
  • Thanked: 933 times
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #46 on: 17/11/2021 20:05:23 »
Quote from: Zer0 on 17/11/2021 18:55:24
aren't Seeds just a bundle of memories?
Seeds are mainly food.
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline Halc

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 2255
  • Activity:
    9%
  • Thanked: 612 times
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #47 on: 17/11/2021 21:50:00 »
Quote from: Zer0 on 17/11/2021 18:55:24
The color of my eyes, my skin tone & possibly the nose that sits on my face...All bear resemblance to my Ancestors.

Can these things be also classified as Memory?
It's classified as information. All memory is information, but if you classify all information as memory, then there seems to be no point to having two distinct words to describe the same thing. So it seems that memory is a specific kind of information, and whether a seed constitutes memory or not depends on where you draw the line between your definitions.

So again, a dead person's memories might be gone, but the information possibly isn't, at least not right away. But there seems to be no simple way to read this information, just as you can't easily tell from a DNA molecule what sort of thing is described by it. A good biologist can get pretty close though, at least if it's something related to a life form that he's worked with before.
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: Zer0

Offline Zer0

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 902
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 86 times
  • Homo EviliUs
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #48 on: 20/11/2021 19:07:18 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 17/11/2021 20:05:23
Quote from: Zer0 on 17/11/2021 18:55:24
aren't Seeds just a bundle of memories?
Seeds are mainly food.

You certainly aren't interested in the Art of Gardening, are You?

It's quite pleasant you know.
Helps to keep oneself calm & composed & in rhythm with nature.

Ps - Try it!
Logged
1N73LL1G3NC3  15  7H3  481L17Y  70  4D4P7  70  CH4NG3.
 



Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 27789
  • Activity:
    92%
  • Thanked: 933 times
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #49 on: 20/11/2021 19:15:10 »
Quote from: Zer0 on 20/11/2021 19:07:18
Quote from: Bored chemist on 17/11/2021 20:05:23
Quote from: Zer0 on 17/11/2021 18:55:24
aren't Seeds just a bundle of memories?
Seeds are mainly food.

You certainly aren't interested in the Art of Gardening, are You?

It's quite pleasant you know.
Helps to keep oneself calm & composed & in rhythm with nature.

Ps - Try it!
You seem to have muddled what they are made from with what they are for.
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline hamdani yusuf

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 5102
  • Activity:
    83%
  • Thanked: 183 times
    • View Profile
Re: Do memories exist after death?
« Reply #50 on: 21/11/2021 06:38:09 »
Quote from: Halc on 17/11/2021 21:50:00
So it seems that memory is a specific kind of information, and whether a seed constitutes memory or not depends on where you draw the line between your definitions.
Memory usually refers to information acquired from experience. Biology borrows the word and use it to describe similar traits for species other than humans.

Electronic engineering and computer science extend the scope further to any information which can be easily read/recalled.
But the op seems to restrict the scope to human memory.
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 



  • Print
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags: memory  / neuroscience  / death  / brain 
 

Similar topics (5)

Can a black hole exist inside another black hole?

Started by Nic321Board Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 8
Views: 9627
Last post 12/03/2018 18:34:31
by jeffreyH
Do atoms exist in multiple places at once, 2 places or 1?

Started by MultifacetedBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 75
Views: 13480
Last post 30/07/2021 06:40:50
by yor_on
Are virtual particles exclusively virtual, or do some exist in reality too?

Started by pinballedBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 40
Views: 19860
Last post 15/11/2012 12:48:57
by yor_on
Could a "hot jupiter" exist in an orbit 1 AU from a star like our own, and if so

Started by Cobalt-BlueBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 7
Views: 6357
Last post 14/01/2019 07:54:53
by Professor Mega-Mind
The expression "A moment in time" does it exist in physics?

Started by Alan McDougallBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 11
Views: 13878
Last post 03/07/2013 09:59:09
by yor_on
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.14 seconds with 61 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.