1

Technology / Re: Lifting water with ancient time big water wheels

« on: 02/12/2014 05:19:30 »

Hmmm,
Say you are raising the water 100 feet.
Then, optimally, with 1 foot drop, you should be able to raise 1% of the water 100 feet.
For 5 feet of drop, you should be able to raise 5% of the water.

However, I'd anticipate your water wheels to be far from optimal.  I don't have the efficiency numbers, but if the wheel is, say 20% efficient, then you would get the equivalent of 0.2% of the water flow being raised 100 feet per foot of drop.

Sorry man, I am not technical person, so please bear with me.   []

Now I can understand something but I think since wheel should be made according to requirement using latest techniques to extract maximum force from dropping water that's why I assume it must should be at least 80%+. Because wheel does not have to lift water itself, wheel have to covert force to piston. If wheel lift water itself then there are chances of leaking water while lifting, incomplete water buckets, etc.

So if I assume 80% wheel efficiency and I want to calculate first wheel and last wheel in row.

Wheel efficiency = 80%+
Water lifting at: 200 feet
First wheel = Drop 1 feet (since pool is at 20' height so vertical distance is less between top pool-wheel)
Last wheel = Drop 20 feet (since pool is at 20' height so vertical distance is higher between top pool-wheel)

Now how much water both wheel can lift. Depending on your calculation I will calculate each wheel (20 in a row) myself.

Thank you for helping me.

Robert

2

Technology / Re: Lifting water with ancient time big water wheels

« on: 02/12/2014 02:53:37 »

Since I did not get clear answer so I will ask short and to the point question.

In reference to all mentioned above should I consider 2%-3% water lift by each wheel depending on the slide/height and water flow provided provided by wheel powered piston/pump? Or how much % you consider.

1. Water fall is 20-30 feet
2. Canal/wheel width is according to each other, no water flowing in waste
3. Water volume might be 100,000 gpm

Robert
 

3

Technology / Re: Lifting water with ancient time big water wheels

« on: 01/12/2014 18:44:44 »

Thank you man for your help regarding this issue.

I have done some more research that's why there was break in replying to this thread. Now I am thinking on different angle and all depends on one assumption that I am going to ask you. Then I will update here some more details of project so you may have more idea what I want to do.

Can you give me your opinion about the following:

1. One 5-10 feet wide canal with at least 2-3 feet deep regular water
2. Canal length = 400 feet
3. Canal slope = 20-30 feet. It means from one side canal is starting 20-30 feet higher than ground and then on second side canal is at ground. It might be like a falling bridge.

So above is great slope and water is coming regularly without stop with full pressure.

1. Wheel and canal width is like this video

I mean canal width is according to wheel so there is no extra water flowing just for nothing. Water flowing is creating force.

2. Another example of wheels is a row here at wider canal but wheel are rotating fast and lifting good amount of water.

specially you can see at around 1:00 that water slope or flow is not huge just with normal water flow, 3 wheels in a row are moving. I can assume more water flow than this in my canal.

Another example here about water flow and how much wheels are dipped

So what do you think that if wheel and canal width is according to each other i.e. water is not flowing extra from right/left and there is 30 feet slope from start to end of 400 feet canal and there are 20 wheels of 20 feet diameter in a row, can each wheel lift 2%-3% of water flowing under the wheels?

There might be around 100,000 gpm water flow in a canal coming from 30 (or 20 feet if 20 feet is fine) feet height. 100,000 gpm is big flow and this water should rotate wheels very fast.

Since I want to lift water at 200-250 feet height so this is not possible to make wheels of 200-250 diameter just to lift 2-3% of water flowing under these (although earlier I was thinking to make each wheel of 200-250 diameter). Because if each wheel is 200-250 diameter wheel then for just 5 wheels I need 1100 feet canal that's very hard to manage and big wheels to manage.

Now I am thinking of around 20-30 feet diameter wheels which can move piston like this wheel

and then that piston can lift water at 200-250 height. So wheels height and paddles are created in such way that water force can move piston which can lift maximum weight.

So in short do you think that 1 wheel can lift 2%-3% of flowing water?

I will update more here about my project and what I am thinking but first I need opinion on above question.


Robert

4

Technology / Re: Lifting water with ancient time big water wheels

« on: 29/11/2014 15:31:13 »

Water flow is induced by drop.

Say you add 5 feet of drop to your canals.
Then you simply have to raise your water an additional 5 feet in height which is going to require MORE energy, not less.

Ohh  []

Then how old water wheels have been working. I saw in images that these wheels are in water without drop/slope, just when water flows then these are rotated by flow.

http://sakuramochi-jp.blogspot.com/2012/04/oldest-waterwheel-in-mesopotamia.html
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1294/noria-history

For example if there is pipe (just assume pipe for easy understanding otherwise there is canal with steady flow of water) of 5 feet diameter with 2 feet slope with full water flow and water is dropping on wheel buckets and forcing it to move, now no matter how much diameter of wheel is, will this flow of water not move that wheel?

Robert

5

Technology / Re: Lifting water with ancient time big water wheels

« on: 29/11/2014 12:52:11 »

Just additional comments that I am not trying to make Perpetual motion machine that is impossible. What I am trying to do is to minimum cost of water lifting. I mean lift as much water as possible by these wheels (electric powered or water powered) and then use traditional pumps for remaining water. These wheels will cost one time and will save much money in long run.

Robert

6

Technology / Re: Lifting water with ancient time big water wheels

« on: 29/11/2014 10:59:19 »

Unfortunately with "energy", there is no free lunch.

I completely understand this, I am trying to minimize (not remove) the cost of lifting water.

Say you designed a pump that was 200% efficient,

I completely understand that its not possible and I never think about this.

Now I am thinking at another idea and I know that will be free but how much water can be lifted I can't say anything unless its calculated.

While searching on net, I found that ancient time water wheels were rotated by power of moving water in river/canals.

Since we already have a big water pool at ground so what if we build small canals like 5-10' wide and 5-10' depth and 20-30' long (or whatever is required to build pressure) and water flows in these canals and moving/flowing water rotates water wheel at constant speed (I know rotating speed will be very slow). So this is same as used in ancient times.

If required canal can be made like a slope to make power in flow. Like if canal length is 100 feet and total slope is 10 feet from start to end then 5 wheels can be installed after every 20 feet?

Even 20%-30% (of requirement or total flow) water is lifted by installing multiple wheels then its not bad deal.  Is this possible?

Robert

7

Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology / How to measure force of moving/flowing water in a small canal

« on: 29/11/2014 10:26:22 »

I need help here.

I am working on some amusement park project where a lot of water is involved i.e. coming down from slides and then we have to lift it above 100 feet height for some other boating and amusement rides, etc.

Anyhow we have main pool on ground where all water is collected. Like 50x50x10 feet = 25,00 square feet. Around 20,000 gallon per minute is coming into this pool and then flowing out via small canals. So when amusement park is working then this is continuous cycle i.e. 20,000 gallon per minute water coming in central pool and 20,000 gallon per minute is flowing outside pool by small canals.

Small canal measurement
Canal length = 20 feet
Canal width = 5 feet
Canal height = 5 feet

Water speed: no idea yet as constant amount of water is coming in main pool and then exiting.

I want to measure what will be force of flowing water in this canal i.e. how much kinetic energy or force flowing water will create? We need more force or kinetic energy and if required we can change canal specs or even can make like slob.

What is equation/formula to measure this?


Robert

8

General Science / Re: Calculate required force to move vehicles in circular motion (big loop)

« on: 18/11/2014 17:05:36 »

Ok, on average in total how much % friction I should add. Friction + motor efficiency. 10% maximum friction + 10% motor efficiency. Even if it is 10.15 + 20% = 12.18 watts. If we assume 20% friction + motor efficiency then still its 12.18 watt.

I have understood what you taught me here. So things will go like this I mean solve this as follows:

1. Get Kinetic Energy (J) = 1/2.m.v2 = This is work that has been done, right??? I mean this equation is used in "unified circular motion" condition. Normally Work = F x displacement or this simple equation works where height is not involved?
2. Get Power. Power = work / time

9

General Science / Re: Calculate required force to move vehicles in circular motion (big loop)

« on: 18/11/2014 16:17:36 »

Is this equation can be used here i.e. Power = Work / Time

Power = 3045 / 900 = 3.38 watt

Is this correct? A 50,000 kg heavy train is keep rotating by 3.38 watt electric motor? I think there is some problem?

Please help.

Robert

10

General Science / Re: Calculate required force to move vehicles in circular motion (big loop)

« on: 18/11/2014 14:28:18 »

Hi,

Last time you asked that we need time in which train has to reach at required speed so I give "5 minutes" time. I mean train should reach at "15 minutes per round" speed in 5 minutes from rest position. Anyhow acceleration speed will be calculated later.

Right now I need to know how much power motor required to maintain speed of "1 round in 15 minutes" speed. So speed is 15 minutes. First I need to know how much power motor is required to keep it running at required speed.

Diameter: 100 meter
Circumference: 314 meter
1 Round Time: 15 minutes
Time: 15 x 60 = 900 seconds
Speed =314/900 = .349056 m/s
Total mass = 50,000 kg

K.E. = 1/2 x 50,000 x .12184
K.E. = 3045 Joule

It means electric motor have to produce 3045 Joule energy in 15 minutes?

Now how to convert 3045 Joule into watt? What's formula of Power?

In your last post you said 10 watt, how you calculated, please give me formula?

11

General Science / Re: Calculate required force to move vehicles in circular motion (big loop)

« on: 18/11/2014 13:12:46 »

Ok,

1. Calculate the energy required to achieve the speed , ( KE = 1/2.m.v2), here I will take velocity according to "5" minutes. 5 minutes is the time in which roller coaster train need to catch speed of 1 round in 15 minutes.?

2. What is equation of calculating 'power' for current situation i.e. Unified circular motion? Power = Work/time

Now I have 2 times, one is acceleration time in which train needs to gain speed of one round in 15 minutes. And other time is regular train circulation time.

Please help?

12

General Science / Re: Calculate required force to move vehicles in circular motion (big loop)

« on: 18/11/2014 11:50:22 »

Once again thank you for your post.

Time require to reach train at required speed: 5 minutes

I am confused, can you please let me know how it works.

1. First we need to find "Force' in 'N'
2. Then we need to find 'Kinetic Energy' in 'J'
3. Then we need to find 'Work' in 'J'
4. Then we need to find 'Power' in 'Watt'

Is this the process?

I am confused, I mentioned all details now, please guide me how to find "Power" in "Watt" i.e. what power motor we need to install to run train at required speed?

So far I entered your formula in Excel and now waiting, what to do next?


Robert

13

General Science / Re: Calculate required force to move vehicles in circular motion (big loop)

« on: 18/11/2014 09:31:32 »

Thanks for helping me man.

Diameter: 100 meter
Circumference: 335 meter
speed =335/900 = .37265 m/s
Total mass = 50,000 kg

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x 50,000 x .138865
Kinetic Energy = .5 x 50,000 x .138865
Kinetic Energy = 3471

1. So what' is 3471? Is this Joule? or what?
2. How to convert this to power i.e. motor power required to rotate these vehicles?
3. Is this equation same for "rotational motion", I also saw this equation somewhere for rotational motion where object is moving around its axis. But here object is moving in circular path.

Please reply above 3 in understand the whole system.

Thank you


Robert

14

General Science / Calculate required force to move vehicles in circular motion (big loop)

« on: 18/11/2014 04:00:19 »

Hi,

There is big roller coaster loop 100% round and vehicles are moving in this circular path, I want to calculate how much force will be required to move these vehicles.

Circle path diameter: 100 meter
Time: 1 round completed in 15 minutes
1 vehicle mass: 1,000 kg
Total Vehicles: 50

All vehicles are tied with each other just like train or roller coaster cars.

What force will be required to move these vehicles at required speed i.e. 1 round completed in 15 minutes. What's equation and how to solve it.

Please help me

Robert

15

General Science / Re: Which forces keep car running even switching off the ignition

« on: 17/11/2014 18:48:55 »

Thank you for posting.

If 3 men are pushing a switched-off car and after some distance they stopped pushing car but the car still keeps moving for some distance, how that happened? Is there something rotational force involved or what?

In same sense even we switch off fan but still it keeps rotating for many seconds, although there is no powered being supplied, how this happened?

Robert

16

General Science / Which forces keep car running even switching off the ignition

« on: 17/11/2014 18:18:51 »

Hi guy,
 
Please help me to understand that which forces help car still running even after switching off ignition or fan keep circulating even switching off button.
 
Thank you
 
Robert

17

Technology / Re: Lifting water with ancient time big water wheels

« on: 15/11/2014 12:43:24 »

Cliffordk, thank you for your reply.

1. Are you assuming that I want to lift water to generate hydroelectricity? You mentioned this twice. 

2. You mentioned I need HUGE power if full buckets are going up and empty buckets are going down, what's might be that HUGE power. All what I expect is double power than normal condition. If wheel is rotating clockwise and from right side empty buckets are coming down and from left side filled buckets are going up then what if we do some arrangement to install additional motors at right side (to push wheel down to make some balance as compare to left side) from where empty buckets are coming down.

I want to calculate what is HUGE power that I may needed?

3. You did not mention what you said in one of your previous post something about long canal system idea, can you please mention something about or let me know from where to find more information about that?

Thank you

Robert

18

Technology / Re: Lifting water with ancient time big water wheels

« on: 15/11/2014 11:17:03 »

Cliffordk, thank you very much for replying to this thread.

I am studying big Ferris wheels around the world and "London Eye" is one of these. According to London Eye website, this wheels rotates "362 ton" weight (cabin + passenger weight) equally distributed on 135 meter diameter wheel. And 150KW motor(s) drive this wheel and due to amusement purpose one round is completed in 30 minutes.

I am confused on 2 things after reading your reply.

1. Is this water wheel idea is not practicable? If London Eye is rotated by 150KW motors then this water wheel can take 300KW to rotate a little faster i.e. one round in 10-15 minutes. Is this not practicable i.e. scientifically what's problem in this idea?
2.  Can you please give me some more idea about what you mentioned at last i.e. some kind of hydraulic elevator or long canal system? What's that idea, can you please give me any hint or reference url?

Thank you


Robert

19

Technology / Re: Lifting water with ancient time big water wheels

« on: 15/11/2014 03:38:26 »

Yes, my purpose is to lift water. I was searching on net to find ways to lift water and I found these ancient time water wheels.

I have one amusement park project where I need to lift heavy water at 200 feet height during amusement park time. Water may be like like 100,000-150,000 liter in one second from the ground pool where water will come back after processed in amusement rides/work etc.

I search how much big pumps I needed to lift this water and I found this general formula.
 
Pump HP = (height in feet * water flow in gallon per minute)/3960
https://www.easycalculation.com/physics/fluid-mechanics/water-horsepower.php
http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/General/Required-Water-Pump-HP.php

Normal pump
100,000 liter = 26,417 gallon
26,417 gallon x 60 = 1,585,033 gallon per minute
Pumps HP = (200 * 1,585,033) / 3960 = 80,052
Pumps KW = 59,694 KW Pumps (on 100% efficiency but this will be more at 80%)
Those might be 1000 pumps of 59kw if this formula is correct.
That is huge huge investment or huge power that's impossible for us to bear or install.

Water Wheel Idea
Water wheel diameter = 74 meter
Water wheel diameter = 244 feet
Circumference = 765 feet
Two bucket at both side after every = 6 feet
Total buckets = 127x2 = 254

One bucket size = 4x4x4 feet (64 square feet)
Water in one bucket = 479 gallon
1 Bucket weight = 1,812 kg
Water lifted in one round = 121,603
Wheel speed: 1 round in 2 minutes
Round per minute: .50
Speed: 6.37 feet per second
Speed: 1.942 meter per second
Even this wheel is run by 200 kw motors that's good for us. For example 50kw motors installed at 4 sides to rotate wheel as fast as it can be with safety.

Conclusion:
Other than cost to construct this wheel, is this idea practicable? If not, scientifically what's problem in this idea. I mean same water wheel used thousands years before is constructed at big level and rotated with modern electric motors.

Please advice me.

20

Technology / Can water be lifted using electrical equivalents of ancient water wheels?

« on: 14/11/2014 16:21:17 »

Hi guys,

I just found big 20-30 meter diameter water wheels used to lift water in ancient time. Find some here http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1294/noria-history

In ancient times human and animals were used to rotate this wheels but can we install electric motors with these wheels and lift water. Normally these wheels were slow but if this is possible then electric motor can rotate these wheels at great speed?

There are many water wheels shown here at http://sakuramochi-jp.blogspot.com/2012/04/oldest-waterwheel-in-mesopotamia.html

I am interested in getting one wheel or building one wheel like this and electric motor with it to rotate it fast.

Robert