[bearnard1212 (OP)]

Does humanity actually need Mars colonization? Elon Musk and Space X invest a lot of resources in Starship and Mars colonization. But as most people know the journey to this planet is not a piece of cake and it is rather dangerous for the crew of the spacecraft. Also, they did not figure out how to solve the fuel issue to get to the red planet and bring the crew back. ( Not even mentioning the harsh environment of the red planet. To prepare the crew for it will be very costly to invent special suits or capsules )

[evan_au]

Does humanity actually need Mars colonization?

You could equally ask: "Did humanity actually need colonization of North America?".
- In "colonization of North America", I include colonization by the ancestors of today's South & Central Americans, today's North American Indians, today's Inuit and the Europeans who followed Christopher Columbus.

But as most people know the journey to this continent is not a piece of cake and it is rather dangerous for the crew of the boats, as well as those who walked. Also, they did not figure out how to solve the food issue to get to the continent and bring the crew back. (Not even mentioning the harsh environment of the continent. To prepare the crew for it will be very costly to invent special clothes or boats.)

You could make the same comments about colonization of Australia or the Pacific Islands.

Same, same...

[alancalverd]

You don't need a return journey if your objective is colonisation. Any serious manned exploration of Mars in the near future should be planned as a one-way trip of a lifetime. I'd be happy to go tomorrow.

[bearnard1212 (OP)]

Does humanity actually need Mars colonization?

You could equally ask: "Did humanity actually need colonization of North America?".
- In "colonization of North America", I include colonization by the ancestors of today's South & Central Americans, today's North American Indians, today's Inuit and the Europeans who followed Christopher Columbus.

But as most people know the journey to this continent is not a piece of cake and it is rather dangerous for the crew of the boats, as well as those who walked. Also, they did not figure out how to solve the food issue to get to the continent and bring the crew back. (Not even mentioning the harsh environment of the continent. To prepare the crew for it will be very costly to invent special clothes or boats.)

You could make the same comments about colonization of Australia or the Pacific Islands.

Same, same...

This continent is not so difficult to reach and it doesn`t have such a harsh environment and high level of radiation like Mars has, talking about no way back, it`s a bit odd, if we send crewed mission to the red planet, we will send the crew to die, how they survive there???

[Halc]

if we send crewed mission to the red planet, we will send the crew to die, how they survive there???

If they come back, it's not colonization. If they die there, it isn't successful colonization. If the task isn't colonization, the task can probably be accomplished on a fraction of the budget with unmanned missions.

[alancalverd]

My life expectancy is about 10 years. I'd like to die doing something more interesting than watching daytime television.

There is enough sunlight on Mars to grow crops in a greenhouse, but for much less cost than a return ticket, you can resupply me in much the same way as the International Space Station is resupplied.

Surface radiation doserate is about 10 times the legal limit for employees. No big deal as it can be reduced to a legally tolerable level by about 0.2 mm of lead, which I often wear at work anyway and at 0.4 g gravity, won't be a burden.   

[bearnard1212 (OP)]

if we send crewed mission to the red planet, we will send the crew to die, how they survive there???

If they come back, it's not colonization. If they die there, it isn't successful colonization. If the task isn't colonization, the task can probably be accomplished on a fraction of the budget with unmanned missions.

Yeah, that is a good point, it depends on the target the mission will have. Immediate colonization it`s a bit wrong, we need to make recon missions or something like that. And why do we need colonize Mars?)

[alancalverd]

Nobody needs to colonise anything. It's an activity undertaken for fun or profit. Refugees sometimes end up forming colonies but it's an odd sort of refugee that seeks a less hospitable environment.

[charles1948]

The Red Planet has been the most severe disappointment of our "Space Age".

In a previous Age, when we were observing only through our Earth-based telescopes, we used to think Mars might have life on it.  In the form of intelligent Martians.  Building their canals to distribute water from the polar ice-caps, so as to fertilise the orange deserts, and make them bloom into green vegetation, which we saw in our telescopes.

Alas this was pure carp, and merely the product of of chromatic aberration in refracting telescopes such as Lowell used, plus wishful thinking and possibly some deliberate drawing on the imagination.

 The vision was busted by the Mariner-4 space-probe in 1965, and all the subsequent probes.  No Martians. 

Mars is just a bigger version of our Moon.  Plastered with craters, completely sterile, and no use to any one.

[evan_au]

This continent (North America) is not so difficult to reach and it doesn`t have such a harsh environment and high level of radiation like Mars has

You are talking like someone who lives in North America, or who (last year) could have caught a plane to North America.

I take your point about radiation being higher on Mars, but I think the population of bears, cougars, etc would have been much higher in North America.

It is thought that some of the colonists who populated North America had to wait until an ice age reduced sea levels to the extent that the Bering Strait was dry land (or at least, snow & ice).
- But a lot of Russia and North America would have been covered by thick ice sheets at that time
- Not an easy place to live if you can't grow anything, and the only protection you have is the skin of whatever you can kill (before it killed you)

talking about no way back, it`s a bit odd, if we send crewed mission to the red planet, we will send the crew to die, how they survive there???

Same question about the early colonists of North America.
- The difference is that we can see what the climate is on Mars, through telescopes, and (now) orbiting surveyers and landers.
- All they knew was that life was tough in frozen Russia, and tough in frozen Alaska

[charles1948]

Weren't the earliest European settlers in North America, Vikings, who set foot in a kind of "off the record" way, in the area which roughly corresponds to the modern State of Maine.

This State is by no means "frozen", except temporally in winter.  In other seasons, it is a fruitful environment.

Which the Vikings acknowledged, by calling it "Vinland", which may be roughly translated as "Wine Land", ie, the place to grow wine-generating grapes.  Which would only be possible in a temperate country.  Not a frozen one.

I think you'll find this is correct.

Mars has no chance of becoming a modern Vinland.   Mars is permanently frozen, has only a very thin CO2 atmosphere,  which affords little protection from the solar UV radiation.  Very inhospitable, and not worth further consideration as a place for colonisation.
 
To find planets suitable for human life, we must go outside the Solar System.  Given the distances involved, we'll need an FTL drive, and this may take some time to develop.  But - it will come by the end of the 21st century.

[bearnard1212 (OP)]

Nobody needs to colonise anything. It's an activity undertaken for fun or profit. Refugees sometimes end up forming colonies but it's an odd sort of refugee that seeks a less hospitable environment.
[/quote
In relation to the Mars colonization, I wanna say that we have a lot of issues on Earth and it would be better to solve them. A lot of money is needed to make the crewed mission to Mars. It`s not me who must decide but I`d rather spend this money on solving some issues on Earth or on some useful space projects than investing in Mars colonization. There is no planet in the Solar system like Earth ( I mean affordable for humans to live on ) so, why do we need colonize something if we can preserve Earth.

[Slickscientist]

Hello all,
The astronauts will have to transport many things to the Martian planet to survive: oxygen and hydrogen for fuel and water, lots of food, seeds and portable greenhouses, and other stuff. Instead of investing in expensive spacesuits and air filtration systems for capsules, could we at least try this technology underground. For example, we can take a disused (and safe) old mine, connect electricity, gas and water from above/below and use the air filtration system to provide fresh air. You can take the rubble from the excavation and use it for seawalls, weights, 'sandbags' and other things so that does not go to waste.

I have heard that some miners in America live underground, and have everything there to resemble a home: beds, sofas, stoves, heating, and fake windows!

If not Earth, why not the moon? It is far closer in case something goes wrong, and you can build extended facilities there, because of the availability of frequent supply shuttles from Earth.

[bearnard1212 (OP)]

The Red Planet has been the most severe disappointment of our "Space Age".

In a previous Age, when we were observing only through our Earth-based telescopes, we used to think Mars might have life on it.  In the form of intelligent Martians.  Building their canals to distribute water from the polar ice-caps, so as to fertilise the orange deserts, and make them bloom into green vegetation, which we saw in our telescopes.

Alas this was pure carp, and merely the product of of chromatic aberration in refracting telescopes such as Lowell used, plus wishful thinking and possibly some deliberate drawing on the imagination.

 The vision was busted by the Mariner-4 space-probe in 1965, and all the subsequent probes.  No Martians. 

Mars is just a bigger version of our Moon.  Plastered with craters, completely sterile, and no use to any one.

Scientists found out that there is a huge amount of ice on the red planet. So if we take a sample of this ice, we can find there some forms of life.

[Slickscientist]

Mabey...

[hamdani yusuf]

Does humanity actually need Mars colonization? Elon Musk and Space X invest a lot of resources in Starship and Mars colonization. But as most people know the journey to this planet is not a piece of cake and it is rather dangerous for the crew of the spacecraft. Also, they did not figure out how to solve the fuel issue to get to the red planet and bring the crew back. ( Not even mentioning the harsh environment of the red planet. To prepare the crew for it will be very costly to invent special suits or capsules )

Elon Musk's speeches available on Youtube have answered most of your questions. His goal is to make humanity a multiplanetary species in order to pass the "great filter". It's a prerequisite to form type 2 civilization in Kardashev scale.
The starships are designed and built using methane as fuel for that very reason. Methane can be produced on Mars using materials available there, i.e. CO2, H2O, and sunlight.

[bearnard1212 (OP)]

Does humanity actually need Mars colonization? Elon Musk and Space X invest a lot of resources in Starship and Mars colonization. But as most people know the journey to this planet is not a piece of cake and it is rather dangerous for the crew of the spacecraft. Also, they did not figure out how to solve the fuel issue to get to the red planet and bring the crew back. ( Not even mentioning the harsh environment of the red planet. To prepare the crew for it will be very costly to invent special suits or capsules )

Is there any method how to take the appropriate amount of
Elon Musk's speeches available on Youtube have answered most of your questions. His goal is to make humanity a multiplanetary species in order to pass the "great filter". It's a prerequisite to form type 2 civilization in Kardashev scale.
The starships are designed and built using methane as fuel for that very reason. Methane can be produced on Mars using materials available there, i.e. CO2, H2O, and sunlight.

Is there any method how to take the apropriate amount of methane to get to the red planet without refueling?
As far as I know, scientists did no figure that stuff out.

[evan_au]

Weren't the earliest European settlers in North America, Vikings, who set foot in a kind of "off the record" way, in the area which roughly corresponds to the modern State of Maine.

Yes, the Vikings did reach Newfoundland in Canada, but did not create a permanent settlement.
- Traveling across the North Atlantic was a rough trip, and resupply was undoubtedly difficult
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows#Pre-European_settlements

However, there were colonists in North America well before the Vikings.
- And the climate was even tougher than for the Vikings, perhaps more like the Inuit face today
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Migration_into_the_continents

[Slickscientist]

Elon Musk's speeches available on Youtube have answered most of your questions. His goal is to make humanity a multiplanetary species in order to pass the "great filter". It's a prerequisite to form type 2 civilization in Kardashev scale. The starships are designed and built using methane as fuel for that very reason. Methane can be produced on Mars using materials available there, i.e. CO2, H2O, and sunlight.

Is there any method how to take the appropriate amount of methane to get to the red planet without refueling?
As far as I know, scientists did no figure that stuff out.

Yes, I know that, but they most probably need to cary large amounts of oxygen and hydrogen to create water using a special machine. This has many logistical problems but will multiply in complexity as they are travelling the longest distance yet.

[hamdani yusuf]

Yes, I know that, but they most probably need to cary large amounts of oxygen and hydrogen to create water using a special machine. This has many logistical problems but will multiply in complexity as they are travelling the longest distance yet.

The water would be "mined" from Mars surface. They might need some digging/drilling and purification.