Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: Pseudoscience-is-malarkey on 01/12/2023 17:16:28
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It happens all the time, a character will instantly knock out another character with a tranquilizer such as etorphine. There was once a case where a woman killed herself in a way that made it look like a homicide. She bounded her hands and feet together behind her back and tightly tied a nylon stocking around her neck, all after injecting a lethal dose of morphine. Mustachioed cops and medical examiners agreed she was murdered, as they figured that a high amount of injected morphine would have made the task impossible. It would be a skeptical journalist who pointed out that an injection of morphine takes 15 to 30 minutes to take effect. Also, she had a motive for her suicide, which was a desperate act to finally convince people that her delusions were real.
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I don't look at crime fiction, I would prefer some chemistry ,physics or maths texts but I can answer some of your questions. Etorphine is not a tranquiliser, it is a highly potent analogue of morphine, about 2000times more potent. As regards an injection of morphine if administered intravenously it will have maximum effect in under one minute, if injected intramuscularly or subcutaneously it will take considerably longer and the time for full effect could vary wildly depending on the blood supply to the site of injection. Any dose of such a substance that led to rapid incapacity would certainly progress to death, if not quickly reversed.
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It depends...
But.
" In 1865 as a direct result of the criminal reputation chloroform had gained, the medical journal The Lancet offered a "permanent scientific reputation" to anyone who could demonstrate "instantaneous insensibility", i.e. losing consciousness instantaneously, using chloroform.[62]"
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform#Criminal_use
It would be tricky to balance a high enough dose to get a fast effect vs a dose that kills the person.
Not a problem in the OP's scenario.
This sort of thing is a genuine concern.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chemical_cosh
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Chloroform will not produce "instant insensibility", it would require 30-60seconds of a high concentration to do so. BC, I should have read the wiki article before replying and I would not argue with anything in it.
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I would not argue with anything in it.
Not even this bit ?
" It takes at least five minutes of inhaling an item soaked in chloroform to render a person unconscious. "
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BC, no disagreement. I was just pointing out the impracticality of such a quick knock down. 5mins for a rag soaked in chloroform is reasonable but I believe a high concentration could do it faster, such as a heated evaporator. Anyway, as I said I should have read your refs first, mea culpa.
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Maybe by the nose brain route?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8704573/
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Such is the modus operandi of the cocaine sniffer(snorter in the vernacular) but it would require participation of the victim to get the substance deep into the nasal mucosa. However I know of no agent capable of a quick knockdown that would not be fatal. A hammer would be equally effective.
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The idea- popular in cartoons and spy films- that you can knock someone unconscious with a blow to the head and have them recover fully, shortly afterwards, is as much a myth as the "chloroform on a cloth" myth.
It's probably more dangerous too- since not many people have ready access to chloroform.
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A hammer would be equally effective.
Hammers (and truncheons) tend to have a bad longterm effect. Rubber coshes where designed to reduce the risk but allow stunning. Such is the modus operandi of the cocaine sniffer(snorter in the vernacular) but it would require participation of the victim to get the substance deep into the nasal mucosa. However I know of no agent capable of a quick knockdown that would not be fatal.
Mmm, any tranquiliser runs the considerable risk of administering too much, that was always my thought about the films, slosh half a bottle onto a dirty rag and smother someone does seem a bit risky. Something to stun someone rather than tranquilise?