# Naked Science Forum

## Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: EvaH on 29/07/2020 16:20:44

Title: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: EvaH on 29/07/2020 16:20:44
Salma wants to know:

What is the name of the device that can turn electric energy into solar energy? Also, hypothetically if solar energy was turned into electric energy and then into solar energy again would that conserve electric energy?

Can you help?
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: alancalverd on 29/07/2020 16:25:08
The light bulb.

No.
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: Malamute Lover on 29/07/2020 16:28:31
Salma wants to know:

What is the name of the device that can turn electric energy into solar energy? Also, hypothetically if solar energy was turned into electric energy and then into solar energy again would that conserve electric energy?

Can you help?

An incandescent light bulb with a Daylight rating will turn electricity into the equivalent of sunlight.  You could then use that light to charge a battery with a solar cell charging unit. But there would be major losses at each step. The charge in the battery would be  a fraction of the electricity consumed.

Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: Jaaanosik on 29/07/2020 16:39:26
This is an interesting project: https://safireproject.com/
It appears some light output from the plasma discharge is 'getting there' (to be like the sun light).
Jano
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/07/2020 20:18:09
This is an interesting project: https://safireproject.com/
It appears some light output from the plasma discharge is 'getting there' (to be like the sun light).
Jano
Lots of hype. Some bad science.
And the really funny bit is the catch phrase "The SAFIRE PROJECT reactor generates energy densities analogous to the Sun's"

OK, sounds impressive...
What does it mean?
The Sun's power is
3.846×10^26 watts

That's a big number
But the Sun is big
1.989 × 10^30 kg
So the specific power (energy doesn't make much sense in this context) is
0.2mW per Kg
(That's really mW not MW)
I weigh about 70Kg and I dissipate something like 2500 Kcal per day
That's about 10 MJ in  Hrs
So my specific energy dissipation is 115/70 =
1.64 Watts per Kg
Apparently a professional cyclist can reach 20 W/Kg, briefly *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-weight_ratio#Human

I dissipate something like 8000 times more power per Kg than the Sun.
So, to find something as good as they are bragging about, we need to find something with a metabolism  about 8000 times slower than mine.

They are claiming that their project produces as much power density... as a compost heap.
(Nice videos though)

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-weight_ratio#Human
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: Jaaanosik on 29/07/2020 21:58:47
Some information about the sun: https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/sunfact.html

Quote
Solar Atmosphere
Surface Gas Pressure (top of photosphere): 0.868 mb
Pressure at bottom of photosphere (optical depth = 1): 125 mb
Effective temperature: 5772 K
Temperature at top of photosphere:  4400 K
Temperature at bottom of photosphere:  6600 K
Temperature at top of chromosphere:  ~30,000 K

So if they have 5000K temperature at 10mb pressure they would have similar energy densities as the sun, wouldn't they?
Is it impossible?

Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: evan_au on 29/07/2020 21:59:59
SAFIRE seems to be trying to emulate the Sun's outer atmosphere, not the core where nuclear fusion occurs.

However, they claim to have created "new" elements...
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/07/2020 22:16:05
SAFIRE seems to be trying to emulate the Sun's outer atmosphere, not the core where nuclear fusion occurs.

However, they claim to have created "new" elements...
Yes, without doing anything nuclear...
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/07/2020 22:35:57
So if they have 5000K temperature at 10mb pressure they would have similar energy densities as the sun, wouldn't they?
Is it impossible?
That's about the same ballpark as a neon sign.
Neon signs don't normally do any sort of magic.
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: alancalverd on 29/07/2020 22:55:09
to find something as good as they are bragging about, we need to find something with a metabolism  about 8000 times slower than mine.
A hibernating spider, for instance.
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: Malamute Lover on 29/07/2020 23:04:05
The SAFIRE project is based on...

Quote
The Electric Sun theory (also Electric Star theory, and Electric Sun Model and Electric Sun Hypothesis) is the idea that the Sun (and stars) derives the main sources of its power electrically from its surroundings, rather than from within by nuclear fusion (the mainstream view).
https://www.electricuniverse.info/electric-sun-theory/
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/07/2020 23:06:53
The SAFIRE project is based on...

Quote
The Electric Sun theory (also Electric Star theory, and Electric Sun Model and Electric Sun Hypothesis) is the idea that the Sun (and stars) derives the main sources of its power electrically from its surroundings, rather than from within by nuclear fusion (the mainstream view).
https://www.electricuniverse.info/electric-sun-theory/
It's not really a "theory", is it?
to find something as good as they are bragging about, we need to find something with a metabolism  about 8000 times slower than mine.
A hibernating spider, for instance.
Something that energetic, yes.
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: Jaaanosik on 29/07/2020 23:30:21
Is transmutation possible?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303324128_Microwave_Induced_Nuclear_Transmutation
The author used a commercial microwave and he claims he got some results.
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: alancalverd on 30/07/2020 00:06:25
Surprisingly, he reports no gamma radiation detected, but his proposed transmutations emit 725 keV photons which would certainly ring the chimes of his Gamma-Scout dosemeter.
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/07/2020 09:55:26
Is transmutation possible?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303324128_Microwave_Induced_Nuclear_Transmutation
The author used a commercial microwave and he claims he got some results.
"Is transmutation possible?"
Yes, but not like that.

"The elemental composition measurements were done by X-ray fluorescent (XRF) analyzer in both cases "
XRF is a notoriously difficult technique to get right.
Title: Re: Can you turn electric energy into solar energy?
Post by: yor_on on 31/07/2020 15:32:51
I think it depends on how you define it. Any transformation should lose something I think. If you think of it in terms of 'heat' f.ex.  If you think of it terms of entropy and 'energy' some of the transformations are usable, but their end state will not be useful. It's like a ball moving rotating inside a hole. There is a end state to it, at the bottom. That's also the idea of the 'Mexican hat' in where this end state is a question of from where you define it. A 'false' vacuum. Meaning that this end state isn't the 'real' end state. It just act as if it was.
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syntax
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Using logic and frames of reference on it such a possibility should have no end it seems? There should always be one frame of reference more to it. Otherwise you reach a 'absolute state' of definition.