Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: Andrew K Fletcher on 02/06/2005 18:48:20
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Derren Brown’s show was amazing, demonstrating how he can easily manipulate the audience to obey his will. He is a very clever man, or should I say very clever man who has studied law; (in his own words on the show).
What I found very disturbing about this programme was the ease at which people were manipulated by his reasoning. So what? I here you ask.
Well, how many innocent people have been convicted by the same audience manipulation techniques? How many judges have been duped by the same mind processing,? And more worrying, how many innocent people are behind bars still, because of this “legal practice”. Who is monitoring the way that barristers and solicitors twist words to make a negative into a positive and vis-versa?
Perhaps this is why people are released after falsely being incarcerated, like the Birmingham 6? And the Guildford 4?
Perhaps, this explains why the evidence is found to be on very shaky foundations, when the mind-controlling perpetrator (The original prosecutor) has been removed from the re-trial?
Now there’s food for thought.
Andrew
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
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those groups you mentioned were wrongly prosecuted because they were beaten hald to death by the police officers involved.
Derren Brown is succesful because people like you think what he is doing is actually real. I can reveal how he does every single trick (yes they are nothing more than magic tricks) and he has even threatened to sue me for doing so on his own forum ha ha ha it was so funny.
There are numerous books and DVD's on the subject just take a trip to a magic shop or buy "13 steps to mentalism".
Dont fall for it as its only simple parlour tricks hammed up. He also cheats a lot as well.
I am happy to post explanations of tricks on here if you wish. Oh and if Mr Brown is watching please feel free to send me more emails your attempts to sue me are rather funny.
Live long and Love life
Kevin Fisher
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Cool
Fire away with your examples, can't wait to see them.
Thanks Kev
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I've watched him from a psychologist's point of view & can recognise a few of the techniques he uses. I dare say there are some parlour tricks involved too. But what can't be denied is that he is very good at it.
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But how does someone like him get so much information just by looking at them. I saw him tell people what star sign they were, where they went on holiday, what teams they supported, how much money they had in their purse/wallet etc.....how does he also know the words that people are thinking. I am sure there are techniques involved but like what Doctorbeaver has said, he is most certainly a prodigy in his ability to do these things, he is gifted, and the information he provides on people is not loose it's obscure and disturbingly accurate.
I remember seeing one program where he was in a room overlooking a street and just by random he made someone walking along the street stop walking and turn around at the exact moment he wanted them to, how on earth did he do that ?
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I once told a girl her date of birth (not star sign, actual date), favourite colour & what pet she had within 2 mins of meeting her
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quote:
I remember seeing one program where he was in a room overlooking a street and just by random he made someone walking along the street stop walking and turn around at the exact moment he wanted them to, how on earth did he do that ?
Could that not have been fixed like the person have known about this
dude tellin him or W/E.
DoctorBeaver.... how did you do that?
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-__- my website!!!!
http://www.simeonie.co.uk
has forums too!
Think about it! lolz
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quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver
I once told a girl her date of birth (not star sign, actual date), favourite colour & what pet she had within 2 mins of meeting her
And did she get the diary back, in the end? [:D]
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DoctorBeaver.... how did you do that?
Trade secret, I regret to say [:D]
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quote:
Originally posted by simeonie
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I remember seeing one program where he was in a room overlooking a street and just by random he made someone walking along the street stop walking and turn around at the exact moment he wanted them to, how on earth did he do that ?
Could that not have been fixed like the person have known about this
dude tellin him or W/E.
DoctorBeaver.... how did you do that?
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-__- my website!!!!
http://www.simeonie.co.uk
has forums too!
Think about it! lolz
Well he starts each program with a disclaimer that he uses no stooges, no tricks,no mirrors or camera tricks, no one is prepared ahead of schedule.
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quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver
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DoctorBeaver.... how did you do that?
Trade secret, I regret to say [:D]
oh come on !!..when you say it's a trade secret, does that mean you're also an entertainer ?...give us a little snippet !
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sixelms - no, I'm a psychologist & musician
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quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver
sixelms - no, I'm a psychologist & musician
Well there you go then, so you can spill the beans without breaking any rules eh ?[;)] After all, this is a forum for asking qustions and seeking answers, and it seems like you have some....so you say ![;)]
Natalie
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Still waiting Kev, any chance of some insights into Derron's secrets?
Dr Beaver, put your text where your mouth is please :)
I did guess the colour and shape in the first example based on Africa, where the lady picked the colour green and the triangle. I told my wife she would pick this, because Africa suggests to people, that Africa is a rich tropical continent. Rather erroneously though, as Africa is predominantly desert, or semi-desert and logically, I would therefore have chosen the orange colour, and screwed up his confidence.
But I am still convinced that some of these techniques are used by barristers and solicitors.
Andrew
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
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Erm I know loads of people doing law at uni who want to be barristers, they don't have a covert mind control module [:D]. Although quite cunning, most of what Derren Brown does is just psychology or fake. Someone mentioned being able to make people look his way... that could be accomplished with a remote, controlling a noise near where the people are. I saw one really great trick he did by lifting valuables from people by just asking for them; it was clear that he managed to do this by lulling them in to the suggestion they had something of his when he handed them a bottle of drink, plus the effect didn’t last long.
Think conmen or sales personnel from Comet/PC World not barristers.
wOw the world spins?
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Ultima, I do know that he does not have a covert mind control module. But I do know that he gets results from a crowd using tricks, or suggestion and that believe it or not may be all that is needed to sway a jury one way or the other, this was the point I was raising. Not, I repeat not, that he has some amazing mystical power over someones brain cells.
Good point about the remote controled noise, had not thought of that doh.
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
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Andrew I was referring to some of the other posts; but I still think that any psychological persuasion that someone has over another is not going to be very powerful or long lasting. Since Derren doesn’t get it spot on all the time. I imagine that the media has a larger sway over a jury in a big case such as with Michael Jackson at the moment. Plus the fact that the jury is selected at random your gunna end up with a select amount of morons who don’t care anyway. Should replace the judicial system with a nice computer that you program all the "facts" into [:D]. Or at least use a computer and weight that against the human jury.
wOw the world spins?
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Gentlemen,
I have been a magician/mentalist for 8 years now, and can certainly perform much of the material that Derren uses - however, they are HIS routines and presentations, and noone should be doing them, the way he does, except him. I see so many David Blaine clones around, it is quite painful. Derren was, and is, a magician, and many of his presentations are based on NLP, or neuro linguistic programming. They may be just that, presentations, but the pseudo scientific nature of his effects has people enthralled, and believe. His hypnosis abilities are genuine, however.
That said, he is a professional entertainer, so why not just enjoy the performances? He is no doubt a very skilled showman, convincing performer, and an excellent magician. I think people should stop worrying so much about methods, and just enjoy the shows.
Kevin, why would you want to reveal how he does all his 'tricks'? I must therefore assume that you are an expert magician/mentalist, or you could be a failure who wants to shoot mr Brown down as he has risen to the top of his field, or you could be a fraud and just writing here for attention. I am assuming that you are the latter, with a smattering of magical knowledge. If I am wrong, pm me!
Andrew, again, why not just enjoy the performances? You said it was amazing, and any method given to you, correct or not, will take this away. So, please continue to be astounded by Derren's NLP, psychology and mind control abilities, as is Derren's intention.
Simon
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Here Here !!..Derren Brown is great !
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finstagiber.net%2Fsmiliesdotcom%2Fcontrib%2Ficw%2F003.gif&hash=f326f525e3f6c60d4ea3ecbb24d1df2a)Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finstagiber.net%2Fsmiliesdotcom%2Fcontrib%2Ficw%2F003.gif&hash=f326f525e3f6c60d4ea3ecbb24d1df2a)
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Simon, having an enquiring mind is what got Derren to the top of the tree. Asking me to accept his performance without understanding it is like asking a Donkey not to eat strawberries.
I love to pull things to bits and assemble them so that I can understand how and why they work. That is precisely why I became an engineer, an inventor and a scientist.
My point about swaying a jury one way or another using the same techniques as Derren et al is something that should be considered, and trained observers should be in courtrooms to advise judges that someone may be influencing the jury using these same techniques. I doubt many of the judges would be able to recognise foul play if it hit them on the head.
Still waiting for an explanation :)
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
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While I am not saying Derren does not have a knowledge of these things, bear in mind what you see on tv is not always what it seems - he is a very good magician, with excellent audience management. These, and an excellent team behind him, can give you the results we see.
Swaying a jury with mind control? Surely this is done every day. I believe you are talking about suggestion. While a strong ability, (essentially hypnosis is suggestion, taken further), it has its limits. Find a book on hypnosis, and read into suggestion. I say everyday, because that is exactly what lawyers do - they attempt to influence the jury to make their decisions.
Suggestion is used the whole time - when someone yawns, other people do. Why? It is associated with being tired, and your subconcious makes you yawn also. If you would for me, imagine biting into a lemon. Taste the bitterness, almost makes your eyes want to water.. keep imagining the bitter juices in your mouth, the feel of the lemon.. If you can picture that, then notice the increase of saliva in the mouth.. this is simply suggestion.
I agree, I love disecting things, trying to piece them together.. however, the aim of magic is to exeperience wonder. Some people find it hard to appreciate it - they wish to understand it, and throw their theories forward - they are convinced they are correct, and nothing will make them think otherwise - they are nearly always so far out it is funny! (I do a piece where I tell someone the name of an old friend - they are convinced I have found out all about them and rang their families!
Interestingly, your signature of KIS is not too far off - try to have the easiest method possible, then work on the presentation.
Magic secrets are not given away lightly - they are earned over years of reading and study. If you wish me to direct you to some magic literature so you may begin a journey into magic, please email me at stigmagic@hotmail.co.uk.
Simon
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Andrew,
Also, concerning an explanation, it would be nigh on impossible to give what Derren does an 'explanation'. There are many many different facets and methods going on, and it is not all accomplished by the same means. In fact, most of his effects could be done through numerous different methods, and still have exactly the same effect.
For example, it is like asking for an explanation of an aeroplane. That would need to be disected into countless parts - the wings, engines, electronics, physics... etc. Magic is the same.
I apologise for not being able to give too much away, but it would be impossible to explain briefly anyway what took years to learn and develop.
Simon
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Except Derren didn't take years to learn and develop anything. He is told exactly what to do by Andy Nyman his manager who was originally going to do the show. Derren is a magician pure and simple and his "tricks" can be emulated by anyone.
Live long and Love life
Kevin Fisher
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....but he does do it ever so well !..did anyone see that program last week where after some weeks of conditioning he managed to get three out of four people to perfrom a heist from a security van that happenned to be parked along a street that they were just walking up ?.........notwithstanding the provenance of his credentials, the actual event was amazing to watch.
Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
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Kevin,
I am referring to years of practicing as a magician - I am perfectly aware that he is a magician! And it would be niec to have Andy behind the scenes, I agree.
Neil, The heist was indeed entertaining television. I am glad that you like it!
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Thanks Simon,
I do enjoy it purely (as you have mentioned) from an entertainment perpective..but am also enthralled and astonished at the perception of Derren Browns (supposed) abilities which I am sure, is the desired effect.I suppose there are just as many failures as there are success too and we only get to see what they put on the television.
Having said all that..he does possess an extraordinary ability to astonish and he just does it so very very convincingly. I mean, how on Earth can you tell someone their date of birth, their hobbies, what they had for lunch, where they went on holiday, how much change they have in their pockets, what they are thinking... just by looking at them...?..I am sure there is a rational explanation because despite his awe and wonder..he obviously has no supernatural powers !...amazing that it is. I think he's great !
Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
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He is a very good performer, and mentalist. I am sure there are not too many failures - it would not look good for him, if people he had 'failed' on came to the press exclaiming that fact! Everything is carefully planned, and more reliable than you would think.
What you are referring to in your second paragraph is 'mentalism' - a genre of magic that gives the illusion of reading minds. All the things you mentioned I have done. Email me for more, and I will give you some books to start the journey into magic if you wish. sjdavison@hotmail.com - however, it takes practice and dedication!
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Thanks Simon
Having read your posts, it is certainly highly possible and even more highly motivated to influence a courtroom in favour of your preferred direction, and I suspect is part and parcel of the methodology of a good barrister and Brief.
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
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Derren Brown is just gorgeous and gifted in what he does! He wouldnt need to hypnotise or use neuro linguistic programming on me to get me to do anything for him...lolol[:X][:I][:D]
The heist one was good wasnt it. Did you see the Russian Roulette one he did too?
Heres my answer to how he does it... What do you want to do when someone tells you you cant cough and shows you loads of pictures of boxes of hankies, lockets, and snow scenes?..lol Still good though[8D]
Babs
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yeah i saw the roulette one the only problem with that one was that it was obvious he had chosen a completely transparant spoon for a loader mind you if it was life or death i would have to
"Defender of the Sea"
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he had chosen a completely transparant spoon for a loader
LOL [:D]
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Babs, good looks certainly helps in mentalism, and performance generally! (but biased as I'm a handsome 24 year old performer, but have avoided the goatee!)
But it is all in the PRESENTATION, and Derren is excellent at what he does. (That said, there is nothing new in the Russian roulette stunt, but it is an entertaining presmise.)
I am glad that everyone is enthralled and astonished by Derren - it is what magic is for, after all.
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This "mind control" Thing, (never even heard of Mr Brown) is it, or does it, not say more about the audience, being open to assumptive judgement, because someone can elicit their trust, and hence their belief/s, just by projecting onto them?
The linguistics would also help, nothing like a good vocab.
I once heard a man who was before the court, anyway he gave a reasonable account that day, and on speaking to him after, he said " I was playing to the Judge not the court, it is him that has the power, over me"
In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination.
Mark Twain