Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Chemistry => Topic started by: jace on 21/04/2006 21:40:29
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Hey guys how can you make sodium or can't you make it
Can you change sodium bicarbonate into pure sodium
jack
<font size="1">Jack i hope you don't mind but i deleted your other post and added its contents to this one.</font id="size1">
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Of course you can make it, though most labs will just buy it from a chemical company. I believe that it is made through the electrolysis of molten salt (NaCl): 2NaCl --> 2Na (l) + Cl2 (g). You might be able to do something similar with sodium bicarbonate.
I do know that pure sodium is rather dangerous. Reacts well with air, so you need to keep it either in an inert atmosphere or submerged in an oil type of thing. I've worked with it before in a synthesis. A nice, soft metal...you can cut it with a butter knife.
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Hmm not sure electrolysis with water would work because sodium reacts with water. You would simply end up with sodium hydroxide i think. Are there other solvents which you can use to electrolyse salts? Alcohol maybe??
"Knowledge has to be improved, challenged, and increased constantly, or it vanishes." Peter F. Drucker
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could u get pure sodium from sodium becarbinate
jack
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You couldn't do it in ethanol. You'd get sodim ethoxide. Similarly with other alcohols.
Sodium reacts with pretty much everything...well, not alkanes but anything with a remotely acidic proton will give hydrogen and Na+, and you can't dissolve salt in oil.
So yeah. I don't think you'll manage it.
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Not a chemist myself, but I'd have thought if the only question is whether it is possible, then the most obvious answer would be to displace it with potassium – although that would mean getting hold of metallic potassium, so why not get hold of metallic sodium in the first place.
In any event, I'd have thought that most other processes would start by disassociating sodium bicarbonate to sodium hydroxide and CO2 (could that be done just with heat?).
What would happen if you heated sodium hydroxide with hydrogen in a temperature above the boiling point of water?
As I say, I am not a chemist, so these are wild guesses.
George
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Are you trying to blow something up???
If you could use Na+ you might be able use a Dowex Cation Exchange Column.
If you evaporated all of the water off would you have solid Na+? Would it explode? or would it react and form NaOH??
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It's possible, but difficult.
First, heat the sodium bicarbonate until it melts. You'll only need to go to above 1132°C. :)
(During this process, the sodium bicarbonate will decompose into sodium oxide, which melts at 1132°C.)
Then, pass a DC electric current through the melt, being careful to capture the gaseous sodium (bp=881°C) and oxygen separately.
Finally, cool the sodium gas until it solidifies.
DrDick
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Sodium chloride melts at 801 C; suggesting that if you use it rather than carbonate as the starting material, you can carry out electrolysis at a temperature below the boiling point of sodium. This would allow its collection in the liquid rather than the gaseous phase.
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You still have the problem of chlorine gas if you do it that way. Maybe you could use a fume hood, but you have to be careful that the chlorine and sodium do not mix again.
BOOM!!!![xx(]
"His mind is the ultimate weapon!"-MacGyver television series
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In fact you have to keep the hot molten sodium far away from just about anything - it gets near air - boom, water - boom etc etc. If I remember my A-level chemistry when making NaOH from NaCl you have to use mercury as the Cathode, which dissolves the Sodium, and protects it from the Chlorine kicking about. I guess if you are trying to make pure sodium the problem is even harder.
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Yeah, the sodium forms an amalgam with the liquid mercury (an amalgam is an alloy of one or more metals and mercury). The mercury doesn't react with the Chlorine gas and thus protects the extremely reactive sodium metal. Good luck getting that much mercury though!![:D]
"His mind is the ultimate weapon!"-MacGyver television series
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I dont know if you have found how to create sodium or not but look at the practical joke thread. I made the last post but I think i have the info right about making sodium.
remember that even though i am only 14 I know my stuff
Nick
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Hey, another kid!!! Hooray![:D]
I'm 15 and planning on being a research chemist. Top of my chemistry class, not to brag or anything but to prove that I know my stuff too. And my teacher is amazing!! You actually have to learn the material to pass not just memorize it and spit it back out on a test!
If you're interested, I have an idea about solving our energy crisis here in the U.S. and any input would be greatly appreciated.
I also have a thread on making acids at home with old fashioned methods and minimal costs. If only I could make sulfuric acid at home I could do so many things!![:)]
"His mind is the ultimate weapon!"-MacGyver television series
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You know that is a cool topic on making acids but i like to just by my 70% Nitric acid from a chemical dealer and melt stuff! plus what is the energy thread? Have you heard of hog manure methonal?
Nick
If its not illegal... It's legal!
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I dont know were you live but www.hms-beagle.com (this place is in parkville missouri and i live in kansas) is a great chemical supply store the guy is kind of a worry wort/party pooper but really smart i asked for two chemicals and he knew right off the bat (pipe bomb)! he dosent sell bulk and his prices are nuts and if you like pyrotechnics go to www.skylighter.com
if you dont mind look at my Dihydrogen monoxide post.
Nick
If its not illegal... It's legal!
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Here is how i believe you can make hydrogen.
As earlier spoken of in this thread every one was wondering how to get sodium. one way that i have heard of but have never attempted is the electralisis of a sodium chloride solution. just take a salution of sodium chloride and run a DC current through two electrodes with large surface areas. On one of the electrodes sodium ions will gather in the form of positive sodium. this is not explosive but if you reverse the electrodes the sodium becomes negative. Make sure that you do the reversing polarity step in oil or have the hospital on speed dial! heck call ahead of time!
please excuse my spelling... i specialize in chemistry not english.
Nick
If its not illegal... It's legal!
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Hey Nick, about the acids...I don't really want to spend the money to buy chemicals and there is a great feeling of satisfaction when you successfully synthesize your own chemicals. I live in PA and I'm not so sure my parents would be happy with me if I bought chemicals from anywhere just to play around with. Eh, I'll figure it out at some point.
"His mind is the ultimate weapon!"-MacGyver television series
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I'm fourteen too, and I'm trying to collect samples (at least 1lb in weight) of each stable element. I find this a problem, too.
The thing with the melting/ boiling you're refering to is extremely powerful. It would take a blast furnace to do it. Plus the chlorine and it's dangers . . . I'd say trying to get sodium alone is just a bad idea all-around if you want to do it on your own. I've seen places where you can buy lone elements online, alkalis shipped in mild oils, but they cost a fortune.
I have no idea what kind of budget you have, though. If you can afford a blast furnace, or better yet sodium via mail, that's great.
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If you want to make sodium just heat table salt at about 800*C until it melts then run electricity through it. Just watch out for chlorine gas a decent amount comes out during electrosis
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If you want to make sodium just heat table salt at about 800*C until it melts then run electricity through it. Just watch out for chlorine gas a decent amount comes out during electrosis
And you don't worry about sodium vapors or liquid sodium floating, immediately burning in air?
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At the risk of spoiling all this teenage enthusiasm with a few dull facts; Yes you can make sodium- obviously someone can because the stuff's on sale.
The conceptually simplest way to make it from soda is to heat it with carbon- this was one of the first ways it was made. Of course, it's more than just mixing them up and borrowing your mum's oven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bicarbonate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium
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well sodium can be just made by heating the compound sodium chloride till its boiling point(800c)and by performing electrolysis by using cathode and anode of graphite
NOTE:sodium reacts easily with oxygen to form sodium oxide (Na2O),while chlorine can be very harmful to the lungs [;D](https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5Bimg%5D&hash=f24452d823536c9207234ac9fca72224)