Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Geology, Palaeontology & Archaeology => Topic started by: Richard777 on 06/05/2017 15:57:29
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This post suggests the end of the 12th dynasty of Egypt as the time of the exodus.
Egyptologists consider the 12th dynasty to be the apex of the Middle Kingdom. This dynasty was based at (or nearby) the city of Memphis (Noph or No-Ptah), which agrees with details of the scriptural account and Hebrew tradition.
Pharaoh Amenemhet I may have been the ruler of Lower Egypt (near Memphis) when Joseph was appointed as the second ruler of the land (Genesis 41:40-46) and when Jacob and his family moved into Egypt (Genesis 45:16-20) to buy food during a great famine. Contemporary records of the 11th dynasty based in Thebes refer to "seven empty years" following the death of Mentuhotep III (in Thebes). This may represent a time of famine, co-incident with a seven year period during the reign of Amenemhet I (in Memphis). Seven years of famine did occur over a wide area. (Genesis 41:41-46).
Pharaoh Amenemhet III was one of the most notable and powerful rulers of Egypt, he was probably the pharaoh of “the oppression”. During this time the royalty and clergy of Memphis were closely linked. The Israelites were forced into slavery, producing bricks to build the storage cities of Pithom and Ra-amses. There is no need to assume any connection between the city of Ra-amses and later Pharaohs of the same name.
His son Amenemhet IV was probably the pharaoh of the exodus. The 12th dynasty did not gradually weaken and decay slowly into oblivion. The end of this dynasty was sudden.
Amenemhet IV has no known pyramid. This is reasonable if he died in the Red Sea and his body was lost.
Amenemhet IV was succeeded by his sister Sobekneferu (possibly his wife), the first known female pharaoh of Egypt. This may be because there was no male heir. The son of Amenemhet IV may have died during the tenth plague. Sobekneferu ruled less than four years, when she died the Twelfth Dynasty came to a finish.
Amenemhet IV shared in construction at two temples. One was a temple begun by his father Amenemhet III and was dedicated to Renenutet and Sobek, the other was a shrine at the temple of Hathor (the cow goddess). Renenutet was represented as the serpent goddess, and Sobek was represented as a crocodile and associated with the River Nile.
The first miracle (Exodus 7:10-12) performed by Aaron was turning his rod into a snake which ate the Egyptian serpents. This would be a humiliation directed toward the goddess Renenutet. The first plague (Exodus 7:19-25) was the turning of the Nile into blood, this was a humiliation of the god Sobek. This plague included canals, and reservoirs (Exodus 7:19). The 12th dynasty was known for promoting irrigation projects, including canals and reservoirs. The goddess Hathor was humiliated by the fifth plague (Exodus 9:1-6) directed against livestock.
The very gods promoted by Amenemhet IV were all humiliated.
Due to the terrible effects of the ten plagues and the loss of elite military forces in the red sea, it is reasonable to assume that the twelfth dynasty would weaken quickly and collapse into anarchy. A time of anarchy did occur beginning with the so called 13th dynasty. The 13th dynasty was not factually dynastic, it appears to be a time of multiple rulers struggling for power. This period is sometimes described as an era of chaos and disorder.
After the Israelites along with a great number of Egyptians departed, the land of Goshen would have been virtually empty. Sometime later Canaanites moved into this “void region”. These newcomers would have occupied empty villages, with access to lush marshes, pastures and irrigated fields, free for the taking. They prospered and eventually became powerful and ruled over Lower Egypt. They were known as the Hyksos (foreign rulers). The Israelites were long gone when the Hyksos ruled.
The foregoing points of interest suggest that the 12th dynasty may have ruled Lower Egypt at the time of the residence of Israel in the land of Goshen.
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This post would imply that the tribes of Isreal were resident in Egypt for approximately two centuries.
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It's a really good story. I like the story very much. It's really mysterious.
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This post suggests the end of the 12th dynasty of Egypt as the time of the exodus.
Mainstream archaeology suggests that the Exodus was entirely fictional. For an introduction, see here (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus).
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Would I be right in thinking that, apart from the Bible, there is no evidence that the Israelites were enslaved in Egypt at all?
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The Bible story about the Exodus is constructed of different historical events from different periods, but there is some historical backround. Hyksos played an important role in that event. They had ruled Egypt (Kemi at that time) several centuries earlier and when they had left, people who had supported them and other Apirus or Habirus (falsely labeled as "Israelites"), mainly followers of the Old Kingdom tradition, had been surpressed in Egypt.
The Sea People who were so called Habirus as well, supported Hyksos (related tribally to the Old Kingdom elite) who had settled in Levant, and some rebellious circles in Egypt. Many of The Sea People troops were captured and enslaved to quarries when they had attacked Egypt. All these people were Habirus, whose Sumerian based name has been wrongly transformed as "Hebrew". They were not ancestors of modern Hebrews, but Sumerian- Aryan people (Y- haplogroup R1a), descendants of the priestly and kingly elite of Sumeria and Ancient Egypt. Hyksos (originally Haka-Kasvut) were their tribal brothers.
After Seti II died, his wife Meryamaan Twasarat (Biblical Mirjam) took power with her lover vizier Bay (Aria/ Kuru), who became know as Aaron. There was a destruction in Egypt during their rule. Rebellious people destroyed temples and looted everywhere, demanding a religious and cultural change in Egypt. Pharaoh Amenmose (originally Sama Moni/Muna), who had co-ruled with Seti II, was part of the team and he became known as "Moses" in future.
This team asked Levantian Hyksos to help them. It is estimated that about 150 000- 200 000 Hyksos came to help with the rebellious who had now liberated also the enslaved Sea People Habirus from quarries. However, they lost at the end and had to leave Egypt with ex- prisoners, leprous, Habirus, Hyksos etc. Part of them directed to Levant, and part of them invaded Greece and finally established a Hellenic high culture there.
I would like to underline, that "Moses" or Amenmose (Sama-Moni/Muna) was tightly related to Hyksos and he even used a Hykso title "Haka-Wasat", which is falsely translated as "Heka- Waset" by ignorant egyptologists.
Hyksos or originally Haka-Kasvut weren´t Asiatic or Semitic, but Aryan Habiru people who had left Egypt during and at the end of the Old Kingdom to establish mines and metal cultures. Arkaim was one of these sites established by Kemi-Egyptian Aryans and they became known as "Hyksos". The problem is that egyptologists have no idea about the language used by Aryans. Their names are systematically wrongly translated.
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Thanks for that fascinating reply, Magnetic views. I don’t know much about ancient Egyptian history, but there has, for many years been a lurking interest at the back of my mind.
I guess the history you outline suggests that the theory that Moses got the idea of a single God from Akhenaten might be a bit wide of the mark.
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Did Amenamhet I locate the Hebrews (Jacob and family) in the land of Goshen to counter untrustworthy tribes already living in the region? He may have directed naval action in the area.
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There is a canal in Egypt currently named "Joseph's canal". Of course there is no absolute basis for this connection. However the name suggests a tradition that has existed for a very long time. Who knows, it may be correct?
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There may be evidence to suggest that Hebrews were living in Egypt as free people during the earlier part of the dynasty.
An Egyptian official named Khnumhotep is believed to have lived during the reign of pharaohs Amenemhet II and Senusret II. His tomb contains paintings of everyday life in Egypt. Two scenes show Semetic people (possibly Israelites) offering gifts (tribute, or tithes, or taxes) to Egyptian scribes. At this time the Hebrews were not enslaved.
One scene includes women and children. This agrees with the scriptural account that the Israelites “became fruitful and began to increase greatly, and they kept on multiplying and growing mightier at an extraordinary rate” (Exodus 1:7). It would be unusual if this scene did not include children. The scene probably represents occasions familiar to Khnumhotep.
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It may be that baby Moses was adopted by a daughter of pharaoh Senusret III. This pharaoh had at least four daughters; Sithathor, Menet, Senetsenebtysy, and Mereret. They probably outlived their father and were eventually interred in the royal burial complex at the pyramid of Senusret III. These daughters had the title “kings daughter” and this agrees with biblical terminology (Exodus 2:9).
Biblical events may be distributed over the twelfth dynasty as follows;
Pharaoh Years Possible Events
Amenemhet I 29 Joseph appointed as overseer, Jacob enters Goshen, Jacob dies
Senusret I 45 Israel Prospers
Amenemhet II 34 Joseph dies
Senusret II 19 Israel increases greatly, Khnumhotep II dies
Senusret III 39 Israel enslaved, Moses adopted by daughter of Pharaoh
Amenemhet III 46 The oppression continues, Moses flees to Midian
Amenemhet IV 9 The Exodus, collapse of the dynasty
Sobekneferu 4 End of dynasty
8 rulers 225 total years of rule (28 year average rule)
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I have read a book 5hat states Arkenaten, who was moving toward a monotheistic religion, who also was cosidered a heratic at the time was ruling. He moved toward monotheism possibly because of a jewish influence. Unfortunatley the island of thera where the atlantis myth is set exploded in a volcanic eruptionand flooded the nile delta. This was taken as the last straw by the standard old guard priests, and arkenatens fate was sealed.
As you can see there are various myths created.
Atlantis and its destruction
God parting the red sea and drowning the egyptians
Evil pharaoh
Edit.
It was hypothesised that the jews where a race of egyptians and moses was infact the offspring of arkenaten, thrown out of egypt for heresy and the wrath they had brought. The plague of frogs and locusts and blood rain can all be attributable to volcanic eruptions Before moses there is no real history of the jews, just lots and lots of fairytales like abraham amd methusela, noah and his ark, who all lived for hundreds and hundreds of years.
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It appears that the 12th dynasty was proceeding at full strength until it ran into a brick wall and collapsed suddenly.
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Amenemhet IV has no known pyramid.
This is reasonable if he died in the Red Sea and his body was lost.
Amenemhet IV was succeeded by his sister Sobekneferu (possibly his wife), the first known female pharaoh of Egypt. This may be because there was no male heir.
The son of Amenemhet IV may have died during the tenth plague.
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Man will study and promote all things, except the truth.
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… just lots and lots of fairytales like abraham amd methusela, noah and his ark, who all lived for hundreds and hundreds of years.
“One thousand years in your sight are but a single day…… .” (International Standard Version)
God’s years are not quite the same as ours. Leads to confusion, sometimes! :)
More seriously; I understand there is a theory that Moses got the idea of a single God from Akhenaten.
That’s before you get into the idea that Moses and Akhenaten might have been the same person.
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Well known archeologist Lorenzo Nigro PhD directed an excavation at Jericho.
Grain seeds from the final Canaanite city were tested for Carbon-14 levels. Two samples of grain from layers associated with the destruction of the city were tested. Apparently each sample provided a different dating result;
one sample dated to 1347 BC ± 85 years
one sample dated to 1597 BC ± 91 years
Taken individually the samples give inconclusive dating results.
If the dating results are averaged the “combined result” gives; 1472 BC
According to the Biblical account the exodus occurred approximately 40 years before the destruction of Jericho. If the combined dating result is reasonably accurate, this would give an approximate date for the exodus as; 1513 BC.
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… just lots and lots of fairytales like abraham amd methusela, noah and his ark, who all lived for hundreds and hundreds of years.
“One thousand years in your sight are but a single day…… .” (International Standard Version)
God’s years are not quite the same as ours. Leads to confusion, sometimes! :)
More seriously; I understand there is a theory that Moses got the idea of a single God from Akhenaten.
That’s before you get into the idea that Moses and Akhenaten might have been the same person.
May well be, but what of the jewish captivity and the dead pharoe ? A convert perhaps? Theras explosion and arkenaten do line up well on the time line.
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A summary of interesting stuff (see attachment).
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At times it was normal for two high priests to officiate simultaneously at the great temple of Ptah in Memphis. This agrees with scripture which states that two priests advised Pharaoh against Moses and Aaron (2Timothy 3:8, 9).
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Did the collapse of D12 enable the Hyksos rise to power?
See attachment.
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Assume the “typical lifespan” of a Hebrew person at that time was approximately 60 years. This would imply that four generations of Hebrews lived in the land of Goshen during the twelfth dynasty. This agrees with scripture (Genesis 15:16) which says; “But they will return here in the fourth generation”.
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I think you say the dynasty lasts 225 years.
That's arguably about 10 generations.
Most of us don't leave it until we are 60 before begetting the next generation.
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Assume the “typical lifespan” of a Hebrew person at that time was approximately 60 years. This would imply that four generations of Hebrews lived in the land of Goshen during the twelfth dynasty. This agrees with scripture (Genesis 15:16) which says; “But they will return here in the fourth generation”.
Yes, but the scriptures also say they lived for 969 years in some cases not sixty, believe it or not the argument doesnt stand.
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It appears that some impressive stone carvings and statues from the 12th dynasty were re-worked and re-used in later times. They may have served later pharaohs as religious-political propaganda.
This speaks to the impressive grandeur of the 12th dynasty. Its end was sudden. Please see attachment.
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In many science fora it is popular to dismiss Biblical references. It is also popular to opine Christianity as a Roman invention of Constantine for political purposes. I would caution that lack of evidence as to the historicity of Christ is not evidence of His non existence. I do agree that the Christian Bible is not a factual history. However, the Torah and the New Testament do offer information (of belief systems) that I accept as approximations of actual events. It's best for scientist, especially, to keep an open mind as to what is proven and what is surmised. How many stories were retold and repeated and embellished before they were recorded in written form? The older the more valuable the insight into past human social order.
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… just lots and lots of fairytales like abraham amd methusela, noah and his ark, who all lived for hundreds and hundreds of years.
“One thousand years in your sight are but a single day…… .” (International Standard Version)
God’s years are not quite the same as ours. Leads to confusion, sometimes! :)
More seriously; I understand there is a theory that Moses got the idea of a single God from Akhenaten.
That’s before you get into the idea that Moses and Akhenaten might have been the same person.
Yeah, I once heard of that theory. To be perfectly honest, I don't think there is much ground to that. Atenism was a religion that was clearly based on the worshipping of the sun, a concept the Old Testament clearly rejects.
But the more convincing argument against this theory might be the relative late rise of monotheism in Canaan. Up the 8th-century BC it seems like some sort of polytheism still have been very widespred there, the Bible actually mentions this pretty explicitly. Some historians like William G. Dever even argue that ealy Judaism wasn't monotheistic either having some kind of pantheom including Jehova, Ashera and their son Baal, but that's highly disputed(no wonder, considering it's about the history of one of the oldest still practicized religions). Just google the book: "Did God Have a Wife?"