Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => Complementary Medicine => Topic started by: Donnah on 14/02/2004 22:40:46
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Does anyone have any information or experience with prolotherapy?
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I think the theory on prolotherapy is similar to that of the ossitron, that the podiatrists as work use. The local irritation is supposed to stimulate circulation, growth, and healing. The podiatrists tell me they get good results with the ossitron.
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Hi Bezoar,
I'm wondering if you could elucidate on what an Ossitron is and what it is used for? Thanks in advance,
White Eagle
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Welcome White Eagle!
Is the ossitron an instrument used to increase bone?
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Oops, forgot to answer. You may know the ossitron as ESWT or extracorporeal shock wave therapy. It was discovered while they were developing the lithotriptor for kidney stones. It's a pulse of ultrasound waves, much stronger than a run of the mill ultrasound treatment. I was told it creates an irritation if not minor injury to the tissues which promotes the development of new blood vessels, which promotes healing. The tissue is supposed to heal stronger than before. Now why this works on heel spurs, I don't know, because it all sounds like soft tissue healing to me, but that's why the docs used it. Actually, it's cheaper in Canada than here, and a lot of people go to Canada to get it done if their insurance doesn't pay for it.
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I had ossitron therapy on my strained arch once. It really seemed to help. Unfortunately, then I had o go back to colleger (this was over christmas break) and no one in that city had ever heard of it, and its kind of something you need to do several treatments of.
This is a signature.... AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!!
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Ah Mayo, you have to come to New Orleans. Our podiatrists here have heard of it.
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnah
Does anyone have any information or experience with prolotherapy?
Hi there. I got a prolotherapy treatment about 8 weeks ago. I am due for a second treatment, but it is $100/per so i'm putting it off (really shouldn't). I sprained my ankle in December skydiving, and I continued to skydive even though I knew I needed to let it rest. Additionally, I took anti-inflammatory drugs, which are really counter-productive in a case such as this. After experiencing pain pretty regularly, I finally went to the Orthopedic doctor and got this done. It worked great! I was very very happy with the treatment, and continued jumping every weekend and not experiencing pain. Presently, I still have stiffness in the mornings and I think that another treatment would do me well. But, I absolutely know that the first treatment helped tremendously!
hth.
Angela.
--Beauty is nature--
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Thanks Angela. Please let us know how the second treatment works for you.
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I was under the impression that anti-inflamitories actually helped muscle/joint injuries heal faster. The problem was just that their pain killing properties caused people to use the injured body part before it was ready to. Is this what you were referring to or am I wrong?
This is a signature.... AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!!
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I wonder if this could help me. I have very weak ankles from busting them up so many times and find I tend to get pain for no particular reason. I have exercises to help keep their strength up but if I get slack or forget to do them for a while I tend to injure them again even when wearing my super dooper braces. God bless ultimate frisbee!
I'm born. I'm alive. I breathe. In a moment or two I realize that the sphere upon which I reside is asleep on its feet. Should I go back to sleep?
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I'm not sure how well it would work for preventing injuries, but I think that it really speeds you inrecovering form them.
If I met you in a scissor-fight, I'd cut off both your wings; on principle alone!!
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quote:
Originally posted by MayoFlyFarmer
I'm not sure how well it would work for preventing injuries, but I think that it really speeds you inrecovering form them.
If I met you in a scissor-fight, I'd cut off both your wings; on principle alone!!
My understanding is that it promotes the growth/expansion/strength? of existing tendons & ligaments. By 'irritating' the area with what I believe is a saline solution(?), effectively you are promoting blood flow to an area that doesn't see much of it. Possibly, the nutrients and properties of the blood that goes through the area cause growth/expansion of existing tissue?
I was told NOT to use anti-inflammatories. It made sense once I thought about it. Your body naturally sends blood/fluids to the area of injury. There must be a reason for this. Probably helps promote healing/regrowth/binding of torn/stretched ligaments and tendons.
Seemed to me that the whole point of the procedure was to promote bloodflow, what the body's natural reation to injury is, initially. I, too, have considered having this done in my knees to prevent injury, but I have have some hesitation about this. What if the tissue created is LESS flexible than the existing tissue, thereby easier/more prone to tear? It is said that the tissue/tendons are supposed to be just like they were, not "scar" tissue... but, i'm not fully convinced that this is the case. Where is the data?
I hope I don't come off as too uninformed. These are my thoughts based on the (small amount of) information I currently have. I am certainly not telling anyone that what I have said here is truth. Please do your own research and consult an Orthapedist.
Donnah, I will absolutely let you know if/when I get my next shot how it goes. It would be after my trip to California in the beginning of May.
Angela.
--Beauty is nature--
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Additionally, I was told to take MSM and Glucosamine/condroitin as supplements. I have kept up with the MSM. I am doing well, but I cannot say exactly what I attribute the extended relief to. I do know that healing was going nowhere before prolotherapy, though, and I had already been taking glucosamine at that point. I think that I could have healed without this therapy if I had done things right from the start. I should probably have :
a) not taken anti-inflammatory drugs to try to stop the fluids that my body was producing. We need to trust our bodies more.
b) taken some time off from the sport, and gone easy on it for at least a few weeks or a month. Not being completely lazy, though. We mustn't allow our tendons/ligaments to remain week, some physical therapy at home would have been good, imo.
Angela.
--Beauty is nature--
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I've often thought we need to trust our bodies more with certain things. However, if an injured area is becoming inflamed/swollen from blood filling the tissue due to broken blood vessels this isn't such a good thing and the reason why you are supposed to ice and elevate etc because you don't want it hanging around there. Well this is the kind of thing I've been led to believe anyway.
Having said that I do think anti-inflammatories can be dangerous if the person is as foolish as one of my friends who will soon be having a shoulder reconstruction as a result.
I'm born. I'm alive. I breathe. In a moment or two I realize that the sphere upon which I reside is asleep on its feet. Should I go back to sleep?
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Angela... i think we may be thinkning of different therapys. The one I have in mind required no injection of saline into the area being stimulated. I have no idea what the treatment i recieved was called... I was just going off of bezor's description above.
As for the anti-inflamitory issue I have learned more along the lines of what oldman just said in that inflamation comes from the damage caused to an area, and is not a defense mechanism to help cure it (hence why icing and elavating and area to stop blood flow is good). So anti-inflamatories (by this logic) promote healing, not hamper it. (but I for one am mor apt to go for the ice)
If I met you in a scissor-fight, I'd cut off both your wings; on principle alone!!
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Well, like I said, i'm no doctor and I certainly cannot say for sure what is good or bad. I do know that I was advised NOT to take AID's after I rec'd the prolotherapy injections, though. And, the only way that made sense to me was to assume that the reasoning behind it was to not hinder blood flow to the area. The injections basically make the area swell. So, someone must think it's a good idea or they wouldn't be doing it. :p
Angela.
--Beauty is nature--
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Makes sense to me that if you want to increase blood supply to an area for healing then AIDs are a bad idea, but if you need to reduce swelling/pressure they could be beneficial.
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Yeah, the more I think about it, if you have an injury that is supposed to take a long time to heal you are only supposed to take anti-inlamitories for a few day (same with icing) then you are supposed to switch to heat. Unless its an injury that you keep reagravating then you stick with the ice and anti-I's.... this makes sense my the logic brought up by all in this thread.
Lift your skinny fists, like antennas to hevan!
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My understanding of anti-inflammatories is that they supress the production of certain hormones, which slow the inflammatory response. That is what they are supposed to do, but they also suppress the production of other similar hormones that the body needs to help in healing and other processes. So, they are a tradeoff at best. They are really good in the short term, but over longer time frames can lead to other problems. But, I don't know the specifics.
----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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Oh dear now I'm getting curious.... this is going to mean dragging out the old organic chemistry books.... do you know how long its been??? you people are truely EVIL!
Lift your skinny fists, like antennas to hevan!
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The inflammatory response is necessary for wound healing. That's why people on steroids take longer to heal -- the inflammatory response is suppressed. But there can be too much of a good thing. Since the prolotherapy is supposed to create and inflammatory response, it makes sense to me that you wouldn't follow with a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory. The response will help bring more circulation to the area.
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I had ossitron therapy on my strained arch once. It really seemed to help. Unfortunately, then I had o go back to colleger (this was over christmas break) and no one in that city had ever heard of it, and its kind of something you need to do several treatments of.
This is a signature.... AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!!
-
Ah Mayo, you have to come to New Orleans. Our podiatrists here have heard of it.
-
quote:
Originally posted by Donnah
Does anyone have any information or experience with prolotherapy?
Hi there. I got a prolotherapy treatment about 8 weeks ago. I am due for a second treatment, but it is $100/per so i'm putting it off (really shouldn't). I sprained my ankle in December skydiving, and I continued to skydive even though I knew I needed to let it rest. Additionally, I took anti-inflammatory drugs, which are really counter-productive in a case such as this. After experiencing pain pretty regularly, I finally went to the Orthopedic doctor and got this done. It worked great! I was very very happy with the treatment, and continued jumping every weekend and not experiencing pain. Presently, I still have stiffness in the mornings and I think that another treatment would do me well. But, I absolutely know that the first treatment helped tremendously!
hth.
Angela.
--Beauty is nature--
-
Thanks Angela. Please let us know how the second treatment works for you.
-
I was under the impression that anti-inflamitories actually helped muscle/joint injuries heal faster. The problem was just that their pain killing properties caused people to use the injured body part before it was ready to. Is this what you were referring to or am I wrong?
This is a signature.... AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!!
-
I wonder if this could help me. I have very weak ankles from busting them up so many times and find I tend to get pain for no particular reason. I have exercises to help keep their strength up but if I get slack or forget to do them for a while I tend to injure them again even when wearing my super dooper braces. God bless ultimate frisbee!
I'm born. I'm alive. I breathe. In a moment or two I realize that the sphere upon which I reside is asleep on its feet. Should I go back to sleep?
-
I'm not sure how well it would work for preventing injuries, but I think that it really speeds you inrecovering form them.
If I met you in a scissor-fight, I'd cut off both your wings; on principle alone!!
-
quote:
Originally posted by MayoFlyFarmer
I'm not sure how well it would work for preventing injuries, but I think that it really speeds you inrecovering form them.
If I met you in a scissor-fight, I'd cut off both your wings; on principle alone!!
My understanding is that it promotes the growth/expansion/strength? of existing tendons & ligaments. By 'irritating' the area with what I believe is a saline solution(?), effectively you are promoting blood flow to an area that doesn't see much of it. Possibly, the nutrients and properties of the blood that goes through the area cause growth/expansion of existing tissue?
I was told NOT to use anti-inflammatories. It made sense once I thought about it. Your body naturally sends blood/fluids to the area of injury. There must be a reason for this. Probably helps promote healing/regrowth/binding of torn/stretched ligaments and tendons.
Seemed to me that the whole point of the procedure was to promote bloodflow, what the body's natural reation to injury is, initially. I, too, have considered having this done in my knees to prevent injury, but I have have some hesitation about this. What if the tissue created is LESS flexible than the existing tissue, thereby easier/more prone to tear? It is said that the tissue/tendons are supposed to be just like they were, not "scar" tissue... but, i'm not fully convinced that this is the case. Where is the data?
I hope I don't come off as too uninformed. These are my thoughts based on the (small amount of) information I currently have. I am certainly not telling anyone that what I have said here is truth. Please do your own research and consult an Orthapedist.
Donnah, I will absolutely let you know if/when I get my next shot how it goes. It would be after my trip to California in the beginning of May.
Angela.
--Beauty is nature--
-
Additionally, I was told to take MSM and Glucosamine/condroitin as supplements. I have kept up with the MSM. I am doing well, but I cannot say exactly what I attribute the extended relief to. I do know that healing was going nowhere before prolotherapy, though, and I had already been taking glucosamine at that point. I think that I could have healed without this therapy if I had done things right from the start. I should probably have :
a) not taken anti-inflammatory drugs to try to stop the fluids that my body was producing. We need to trust our bodies more.
b) taken some time off from the sport, and gone easy on it for at least a few weeks or a month. Not being completely lazy, though. We mustn't allow our tendons/ligaments to remain week, some physical therapy at home would have been good, imo.
Angela.
--Beauty is nature--
-
I've often thought we need to trust our bodies more with certain things. However, if an injured area is becoming inflamed/swollen from blood filling the tissue due to broken blood vessels this isn't such a good thing and the reason why you are supposed to ice and elevate etc because you don't want it hanging around there. Well this is the kind of thing I've been led to believe anyway.
Having said that I do think anti-inflammatories can be dangerous if the person is as foolish as one of my friends who will soon be having a shoulder reconstruction as a result.
I'm born. I'm alive. I breathe. In a moment or two I realize that the sphere upon which I reside is asleep on its feet. Should I go back to sleep?
-
Angela... i think we may be thinkning of different therapys. The one I have in mind required no injection of saline into the area being stimulated. I have no idea what the treatment i recieved was called... I was just going off of bezor's description above.
As for the anti-inflamitory issue I have learned more along the lines of what oldman just said in that inflamation comes from the damage caused to an area, and is not a defense mechanism to help cure it (hence why icing and elavating and area to stop blood flow is good). So anti-inflamatories (by this logic) promote healing, not hamper it. (but I for one am mor apt to go for the ice)
If I met you in a scissor-fight, I'd cut off both your wings; on principle alone!!
-
Well, like I said, i'm no doctor and I certainly cannot say for sure what is good or bad. I do know that I was advised NOT to take AID's after I rec'd the prolotherapy injections, though. And, the only way that made sense to me was to assume that the reasoning behind it was to not hinder blood flow to the area. The injections basically make the area swell. So, someone must think it's a good idea or they wouldn't be doing it. :p
Angela.
--Beauty is nature--
-
Makes sense to me that if you want to increase blood supply to an area for healing then AIDs are a bad idea, but if you need to reduce swelling/pressure they could be beneficial.
-
Yeah, the more I think about it, if you have an injury that is supposed to take a long time to heal you are only supposed to take anti-inlamitories for a few day (same with icing) then you are supposed to switch to heat. Unless its an injury that you keep reagravating then you stick with the ice and anti-I's.... this makes sense my the logic brought up by all in this thread.
Lift your skinny fists, like antennas to hevan!
-
My understanding of anti-inflammatories is that they supress the production of certain hormones, which slow the inflammatory response. That is what they are supposed to do, but they also suppress the production of other similar hormones that the body needs to help in healing and other processes. So, they are a tradeoff at best. They are really good in the short term, but over longer time frames can lead to other problems. But, I don't know the specifics.
----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.
-
Oh dear now I'm getting curious.... this is going to mean dragging out the old organic chemistry books.... do you know how long its been??? you people are truely EVIL!
Lift your skinny fists, like antennas to hevan!
-
The inflammatory response is necessary for wound healing. That's why people on steroids take longer to heal -- the inflammatory response is suppressed. But there can be too much of a good thing. Since the prolotherapy is supposed to create and inflammatory response, it makes sense to me that you wouldn't follow with a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory. The response will help bring more circulation to the area.
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If prolotherapy works because it increases circulation, then other methods of increasing circulation, like massage, should be beneficial too. Yes?
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if thats why it works... then I assume your logic would hold, however many of these therapys are not 100% understood even if we have a good idea as to how they work.
NOw I've already stated that I'm not even sure that this is the type of treatment I recieved as mentioned above, but remembering back to the injury I had, massage seems ike I would have irritated the muscle rather than help heal it.
We don't want the loonies taking over!
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A lot of theories in healing have to do with increasing the circulation -- like the magnet therapy. I think, however, that the prolotherapy and probably the magnet therapy as well produce a deeper response. Haven't seen any literature to know if the magnet therapy has any validity. The prolotherapy, on the other hand, does and some of the insurance companies here even approve payment for the procedure.
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Something along these lines, I met a guy this week who's doing research in the field of using ultrasound to stimulate nerve and bone regeneration.. Sounded fascinating, although I guess very little is known about it. (I guess thats why he's around)
A submarine is NOT a cargo ship!
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Maybe that's how hands on healing works.
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I'd be really interested in hearing anything else about the ultrasound treatment especially in regards to the nerves.
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I'm attacking the illusion but the stopping drives me mad!
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I don't know much about it. I just met a grad student who was working on it for his thesis project. According to him there have been very good results thus far, but very little is known about how it works(although it is believed that bone and nerve likely work by the same mechanism). The only other thing I remember him mentioning was that there are very few people in the states doing research on this. (sounded like there is a lot more in europe, but still not very much). Sorry that thats not much info, but it was a shrot convo. if I ever see him again I'll corner him in the hall and interigate him.
That's no moon.... its a GRAPEFRUIT!!!!
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I was recently diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my left shoulder. The doctor told me that I would need a shoulder replacement in 2-5 years(Glenohumeral Joint). I understand that this operation is not very succesful as very few are done and there is little experience in this area. My shoulder was also frozen. I went through therapy to release the joint, however now when I use it I hear bone grinding against bone because the cartilage is gone. It doesn't take much(just leaning on it for a while) to leave me in pain for several days. I take chondroitin-glucosamine and the pain disapates. I would like to know if prolotherapy will help heal the joint, ideally getting the cartilage to propogate in the joint and prevent the bone on bone friction that wears away the bones? Anybody have experience in this area? I'm a very active person, 53 years old and can't imagine being limited by this for the rest of my life.
Dave
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Hi Dave, I only know one person who had a shoulder replacement, and she was very happy with it.
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I am currently undergoing Prolotherapy for diagnosed constant daily headache. I believe the problem stems from neck wear and tear associated with many years of playing raquetball.
I believe prolotherapy is a valid option to consider for chronic pain conditions. The cost/benefit analysis is much easier when you have been suffering from constant pain for an extended period of time.
There is no doubt that the mechanism by which prolotherapy works or does not work is up for debate. I would assume that most people trying it are rather not risk averse, and have strong motivation to try something new after having attempted other, more conservative forms of rehabilitation.
I am in the initial stages (have only had one treatment session), but will report my experience to the end of my exposure to it.
Lastly, it can be argued that there can be no true double blind study for a therapy such as this, since simply inserting a needle to the bone and injecting any substance may be the actual therapy, as opposed to the actual contents of the injection. How then can you measure for the placebo effect? It goes without saying that this is not a therapy for someone looking for proven, scientific evidence of it's effectiveness. It is therefore rightfully so, currently generally classified as an aternative therapy approach.
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Since this is a science site it might seem fair to include this point of view too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolotherapy#Evidence_based_medicine