Post by: somstuff on 31/07/2010 00:35:49
Post by: Joe L. Ogan on 31/07/2010 00:42:43
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/07/2010 00:47:56
This begs another question.
Do people think in language?
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=33070.0;topicseen
Post by: neilep on 31/07/2010 00:59:07
One can understand a concept..by 'knowing' it ......so...in this case....I believe the only benefit a faster more concise language would yield......... would be in the ability to vocally communicate it...in my opinion.
Post by: somstuff on 31/07/2010 01:08:57
^ So you're saying we think up an idea and use words in our head merely to...I don't know, convert the idea to a verbal description? This makes sense, but it still seems like the language is necessary to explain the thought, not just to others, but to yourself.
Post by: neilep on 31/07/2010 01:17:46
I do think though that once we have mastered a language we can use it as a tool to supplement the thought process by introducing key words and/or phrases which enable us to comprehend what we are thinking. Yes, with the aid of language we can then use it as a tool to formulate even more complex thoughts...which once understood would take more than a few words to explain yes ?.......but...when you've understood it/grasped it...you then ' know it'....however.....to pass on your understanding would need you to then explain it......that process takes a lot longer than the actual understanding once the knowledge has been learned !......see what I mean ?
Post by: somstuff on 31/07/2010 02:06:27
I don't think language at all affects your ability to think critically. I think it's just translating the impulsive ideas that we get into a language. Consider this- Think in your mind the follow words: "The man will go to the store." In the back of your mind while you "say" this sentence, your thinking, but it's not in language. The thoughts, if actually translated, would be like "Why is this guy making me say this", or your picturing the key words in the sentence, and all the while simultaneously forming opinions about what your reading, me (the writer), and maybe other ideas that you come up with. These secondary thoughts don't need to be translated because you "know" them. The point of saying the sentence was to make you "speak" in your mind, and realize that thinking was still going on in the background that you "know" these thoughts and don't need to translate them. I don't know, that might seem really obvious or it might not make any sense at all, but I believe all thoughts arise as these impulses and that the language aspect of your thoughts cannot influence these influences, it's merely the translation of them for the purpose of communication.
On a separate note, do you know what I mean by the "impulsive" ideas? If so, how does this correlate to your brain. Where/what is your consciousness? How can we think, how do nerves and brains and stuff translate to thoughts? Where's the transition from physical to mental?! Lol, sorry for yelling.
EDIT: Try repeating the sentence, and at the same time think about thinking. I don't know, it's hard to explain what I mean.
Post by: LeeE on 31/07/2010 10:46:15
Post by: neilep on 31/07/2010 13:34:48
Okay, I think I got most of that. But I thought of something else:
I don't think language at all affects your ability to think critically. I think it's just translating the impulsive ideas that we get into a language. Consider this- Think in your mind the follow words: "The man will go to the store." In the back of your mind while you "say" this sentence, your thinking, but it's not in language. The thoughts, if actually translated, would be like "Why is this guy making me say this", or your picturing the key words in the sentence, and all the while simultaneously forming opinions about what your reading, me (the writer), and maybe other ideas that you come up with. These secondary thoughts don't need to be translated because you "know" them. The point of saying the sentence was to make you "speak" in your mind, and realize that thinking was still going on in the background that you "know" these thoughts and don't need to translate them. I don't know, that might seem really obvious or it might not make any sense at all, but I believe all thoughts arise as these impulses and that the language aspect of your thoughts cannot influence these influences, it's merely the translation of them for the purpose of communication.
On a separate note, do you know what I mean by the "impulsive" ideas? If so, how does this correlate to your brain. Where/what is your consciousness? How can we think, how do nerves and brains and stuff translate to thoughts? Where's the transition from physical to mental?! Lol, sorry for yelling.
EDIT: Try repeating the sentence, and at the same time think about thinking. I don't know, it's hard to explain what I mean.
The thing is when you ask one to think in your mind the following words ""The man will go to the store.""...I DO think in the language because you are asking me to read the words...it's akin to reading this post or a book........If you had asked me to imagine the concept of a man going to the store then I would just have to think about the concept and would probably use visualisation as the aid..I would not have imagined it as a written sentence...but I think I see what you mean when you say in the back of your mind you're simultaneously forming opinions. The secondary thoughts do not need translating them because we have already understood the concept of the man going to the store which was instigated b the words in the sentence.
Ok...so what you are saying is that if the words "The man will go to the store." utilised a shorthand version i.e. was written down using a more concise language then the concept would have been understood earlier. In this case I agree....say that the only way to convey the concept was to say " the gentleman will travel a journey to visit the retail establishment" then your version is clearly far more concise and thus the comprehension of the concept is intially quicker..........OK..I do see what you mean !
As far as asking about nerves and stuff in the brain....this is way out of my purview....you're asking one of the biggest mysteries of all time as to how does a physical biological entity manifest what appears to be independent thought.....I say ' what appears to be' because there are people who are of the ilk that every thought we manifest believe it's all part of some programming !....I'll leave that one to the more established academic thinkers here !
Post by: neilep on 31/07/2010 13:38:58
I agree with what BC said in that other thread: we think in terms of concepts and not in terms of words.
yep..that's what I fundamentally believe in....I've been saying that ' language' can be used as a supplement as an aid.
Post by: Joe L. Ogan on 31/07/2010 15:17:30
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/07/2010 15:40:10
I was cleaning them anyway because they needed it and I figured I could put them together again and, if they didn't fit, I could turn them round.
Suddenly I noticed that the screw holes that hold them in place were not on a horizontal line, but diagonal. With that, and the marks left from where they were fitted in the first place I could tell which way round they went.
I realise I have;t done a very good job of putting that into words.
That's my point; I can "see" how they fit- I don't need any language for that.
I could also "explain" this idea to anyone, no matter what language they spoke, by showing them the holes.
Post by: neilep on 31/07/2010 16:15:39
Post by: LeeE on 01/08/2010 13:02:10
In the context of analogies then, it clearly seems to be the concept that is most important, and not the words.
Post by: Joe L. Ogan on 02/08/2010 18:43:17
I agree with what BC said in that other thread: we think in terms of concepts and not in terms of words.
yep..that's what I fundamentally believe in....I've been saying that ' language' can be used as a supplement as an aid.
Hi, To those of you who think only in terms of concepts, do you dream in terms of concepts also? Thanks for comments. Joe L. Ogan
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/08/2010 20:49:12
Post by: defkhan1 on 23/08/2010 15:51:41
Post by: peppercorn on 23/08/2010 17:33:43
Post by: Bored chemist on 23/08/2010 19:23:57
http://site.ecfs.org/bass/
How do you test for intuitive leaps?
Post by: peppercorn on 23/08/2010 19:50:11
Fine idea, but it reminds me of this cartoon.
http://site.ecfs.org/bass/
How do you test for intuitive leaps?
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsite.ecfs.org%2Fbass%2Fpicture%248&hash=8a88fedac9717f222fb719783a641dd6)
LOL
Quote
How do you test for intuitive leaps?Beats me! .... if only I spoke a second language.
Post by: Joe L. Ogan on 27/08/2010 22:05:08
Post by: Monox D. I-Fly on 10/01/2019 03:38:46
Did you know that there are 24 different kinds of math?Wait, what? Explain!
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/01/2019 10:18:06
That's the problem with necromancy; the author isn't here any more.Did you know that there are 24 different kinds of math?Wait, what? Explain!
Post by: alancalverd on 10/01/2019 11:14:05
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/01/2019 12:43:02
It has been suggested that the form of Chinese and Japanese counting numbers lend themselves better to speed mental arithmetic than their western variants. It is also the case that learned jargon can trigger a complex semiautomatic response, so it is arguable that some languages might produce a shorter time from input to output.I wonder if a comparable study has been made about French
French Numbers.png (102.36 kB . 991x903 - viewed 3061 times)
Post by: alancalverd on 10/01/2019 14:01:09
Post by: Bill S on 11/01/2019 17:51:28
Quote from: OP
If one thought in a faster or more concise language than say, English, would s/he be able to formulate ideas faster? Likewise, if the language was more expansive or logical than English, would that improve one's critical thinking skills? In general, how does language impact thought process?
I think the language we use makes little (if any) difference to our speed of thought. Probably, our familiarity with the language we are using makes more difference to the ease with which we organise and express our ideas than does the nature of the language; discounting those “primitive” languages that might lack the necessary vocabulary.
Quote from: Joe L. Ogan
I did not realize that so many people thought only in concepts. I think in concepts also but that is only the first step for me. I then explain it to myself in language. I may even discuss it with myself and explore the thought of being either right or wrong.
That sounds like a description of my thought process. :)
If I’m writing notes about something I’m trying to understand, I tend to write as though explaining to some one else.
Post by: Monox D. I-Fly on 12/01/2019 07:04:22
I wonder if a comparable study has been made about FrenchYou think that's bad? Try deciphering Roman numeral.
XLIX = Ten subtracted from fifty plus one subtracted from ten = (–10 + 50) + (–1 + 10) = 40 + 9 = 49
Post by: alancalverd on 12/01/2019 12:26:49
Post by: Rodin1880 on 12/01/2019 22:47:06
Quality of thought, something that is rare today, is the next question, speed doesn't usually result in better thought, in fact "sleeping on it" usually creates the best quality of thought...
A larger diversification of words was suggested but if you take the time to look at our English language you'll see that we DO have a large diversity that most people don't recognize as being different words, such as "Apparent", "Obvious", and "Evident"... They are apparently the same, some might say obviously the same, but few know they are evidently different...
I recently met a young Chinese Migrant, well versed in English. I mentioned "television" and he couldn't come to terms with my limitation of the subject... His confusion being apparent, I inquired, and he explained that there is more "television" than what the cable company supplies... The transfer of visuals also comes from DVD's BluRay, and many other forms, including his smart phone which he pointed at as he explained... While he knew what a "TV" is, he didn't realize that "TV" means television...
Post by: alancalverd on 13/01/2019 00:19:13