Show Posts
This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
As I said, it's all a question of relative affinities. Whilst you may be able to dissolve ethanol in gasoline, I'd expect that adding water would strip it out.I am pretty sure that ethanol has a saturation capability of 5% so that would be 250ml of water in 5 litres of ethanol. That is at a volume of 50 litres of E10 in total.
Apolgies for introducing a fact, but ethanol is denser than gasoline, and water is much denser. So any ethanol-water mix will settle at the bottom of the tank.But the ethanol will support the little bit of water and assist in keeping it in the petrol for longer before it settles and with the car in motion, the mix will start again anyway if the ethanol is denser than the fuel then what happens when the car is sitting overnight 10% ethanol will be at the bottom of the tank and the car will have to ingest only ethanol will the car run on straight ethanol?
No, for the same reason that solar is a non starter, because the land is too valuable to use producing fuel. If we could grow our fuel we could make methanol or wood alcohol, but grain and the straw that comes with it are too valuable. As an example, you can make fuel from animal slurry, but farmers value it too highly to sell for the price people will pay.You make a good point there is a lot going on to get the energy to the market and it almost all of the time takes up valuable land.
I can't help it if you misinterpret what I have said If the public was to ask the government or the oil industry why are you selling E10 fuel they will reply it is greener and they will not mention the fact about there being water in the fuel that is water that is already in the fuel you make a very week argument by suggesting that I have said they put water in the fuel when I have clearly stated from the start that the water is not fully removed. I can't fall into a trap that I can see from a mile away. I can see that you like to play mind games but you will be better of saving that type of strategy for the children.I have stated that not all the water is removed.Yes, you have.
And that's pretty dim because the pre-treatment and distillation will remove essentially all the water.
But the other thing you said wasThe oil and fuel industry wouldn't come out and say we are selling E fuel why because it has water in ityou would only have to say that if it had water in it.
And if you don't add water, why would it have water in it?
The implication is that you did add water - by accident or design.
If not you, who else?And we have already discussed how the government subsidises the cost of E10 to keep the greens happy and win elections.Yes; they do that by using ethanol to reduce the carbon footprint.
Because that's what people vote for- regardless of whether that's actually a good thing.
So the purpose of the ethanol is to reduce the CO2 emissions (because that wins votes).
Why are you so slow catching on to this?You really must remember what has already been discussed memoryI had already made those points about the addition of water and the fact that the motivation for reducing the CO2 production isn't important.
The ethanol reduces it.
IPA would achieve the other goals, but not CO2 reduction; so it's clear that the use of ethanol is because they want to reduce CO2 (to win votes)
I pointed all this out before.
It's a pity you didn't stay on channel and remember that.
The sale price is what the petrol station advertises (per litre).I get about 5% less mileage from E10 but it costs at the moment 15% less so I should be around 10% better off. All my driving is in the country and open roads so that may make a slight difference. LPG is very bad in the city I don't know how taxis get on.
The running costs are borne by the car owner (how many litres they need for a given trip).
The two are not contradictory, but they do almost cancel out for both the car owner and petrol station operator...
We did this by getting a government that lied to the Queen and prorogued parliament illegally.It's starting to sound like a conspiracy theory fancy a government doing that. Was this from leaked inside information?
The problem just get worse I never said they put water in petrol I have stated that not all the water is removed. And we have already discussed how the government subsidises the cost of E10 to keep the greens happy and win elections. You really must remember what has already been discussed memory is a big part of learning try and stay on the channel if you can. And you have quoted that there is very little water in the tanks so we agree there is water in the tanks. let's try not to go around in circles and stay focused on the big picture.so you tell me why they are not using itBecause it isn't "green".During the mid 70s the green people wanted cleaner fuel so to satisfy their needs the industry came up with a solution to make lower grade petrolLower grade petrol is not a greener fuel.
So that's clearly tosh.The oil and fuel industry wouldn't come out and say we are selling E fuel why because it has water in it not a good sales pitch.They aren't putting water in it.
You are saying that by adding 5% of relatively expensive ethanol, you can get away with adding 0.1% of water.
That's absurd. It would be cheaper to not bother.See what happens when a process is rushed cheap petrol but a problem water in it.No, water is removed at the initial distillation step.
You keep ignoring that and it's not making you look clever.
If water gets in after the fuel leaves the refinery, that doesn't help the oil company make a profit.How convenient add ethanol you get two birds with the one stone higher octane and a way around the problem of water in the fuel.Ethanol is much more expensive than petrol.
Why would they pay to do the job badly?
Also IPA is a good anti knock agent.
It's Motor Octane Number (99) is higher than that for ethanol (90).
If they wanted an anti knock agent that was also cleaner burning and helped water dissolve in petrol they would use IPA which is cheaper than ethanol.How do they know which fuel has the water in it well I think the industry will keep pretty good tabs on what is in their tanks.There's very little water in the tanks- as explained many times.The lower grade fuel is drained from the bottom of the unfinished higher grade fuel the higher grade fuelThat's not how it works. The chemical makeup of higher octane fuel is a bit different- more toluene and trimethylpentane.
You don't get that by drawing it from a different level in the tank.that is why the higher grade fuel is more expensiveNo
It's because the aromatics and oxygenates etc and the isomerisation process are expensive.
So is alcohol.
You need to realise this; alcohol is more expensive than gasoline.All I can do now is take your hand and go for a brisk walk around the oil refinery what are you doing tomorrow.Looking at a risk assessment for a chemical works.Yes, I remember and the point is that the ethanol main purpose is to raise the octane levelIPA would be cheaper and better.and move the waterIPA would be cheaper and bettergreen bit is a bonus sales pitch for the green ones.Well, we have some sort of progress here, you have accepted that it's more green- you are saying the motivation is advertising- which makes little sense because all the companies are using it.
(Buy our E10 petrol! it's more green than our competitors" is a sales pitch. "Buy our petrol! it's exactly as green as our competitors E 10 petrol" isn't a sales pitch.)
OK so, give that IPA is better at solubilising water, better as an anti knock, and cheaper,
why don't you think they are using it?
Also, if 5% is enough to act as an anti knock (and it is- or E5 petrol wouldn't work, what's the motivation for E10?
My view is that the government mandated it in order to meet CO2 emissions agreements, and changed duty rates to effectively force people to buy it and car makers to change engine designs.
You think it's because oil companies are too stupid to use IPA.Ok, you say IPA is cheaper and better so you tell me why they are not using it.
I already told you plenty of times.
It's the thing you got wrong in your opening post.
It's the green thing.
Using ethanol has a lower carbon footprint.
Even if you think the whole green movement is hogwash, the fact remains that they are doing it to reduce CO2 emissions- the "it's advertising" bit is nonsense, but even if it was true, it would only be a change in the motivation for reducing the carbon footprint. The point of the alcohol is still to reduce overall CO2 emissions.
But the choice between IPA and ethanol is still pretty clear.
Unless you are concerned about carbon footprint, you use IPA.
They actually use ethanol.
And that shows that you are (still) wrong.
Now you are saying that they don't use IPA because it's not green.Ok, you say IPA is cheaper and better so you tell me why they are not using it. You better get around to that refinery and let them know about your cheaper and better option.
Do you remember that you said the use of ethanol wasn't to do with being green?Yes, I remember and the point is that the ethanol main purpose is to raise the octane level and move the water the green bit is a bonus sales pitch for the green ones. It works well even the government backs it. Like you stated it works at election time. Do you think much of the public is concerned about octane level ore do you think the public should be advised to the waterside of this why when the water problem is solved no need to tell.
ThisThis is the bit that you need to know The oil and fuel industry wouldn't come out and say we are selling E fuel why because it has water in it not a good sales pitch. So how can this be During the mid 70s the green people wanted cleaner fuel so to satisfy their needs the industry came up with a solution to make lower grade petrol and as a consequence, the faster process will leave behind a small amount of water in the lower grade petrol. See what happens when a process is rushed cheap petrol but a problem water in it. How convenient add ethanol you get two birds with the one stone higher octane and a way around the problem of water in the fuel. How do they know which fuel has the water in it well I think the industry will keep pretty good tabs on what is in their tanks. The lower grade fuel is drained from the bottom of the unfinished higher grade fuel the higher grade fuel is still to be finished in that process any remaining water will be removed and that is why the higher grade fuel is more expensive as it has gone further into the process of making better cleaner higher octane fuel. All I can do now is take your hand and go for a brisk walk around the oil refinery what are you doing tomorrow.
Quote from: Just thinking on 02-10-2021, 20:33:32
When the oil is collected from the deep drillings ocean and groundwater are introduced to the mix this water is a problem for the refinery that prepares the oil and converts it to the fuel that we use.
is also wrong because they strip most of the water before they even pipe it to the refinery.
One of the first stages in refining is distillation, and that will remove all the water.
After that, it's practically a non-problem until it leaves the plant.
I'm sure we are all still waiting for your explanation of why (to shift water) they use ethanol instead of IPA, which is cheaper and better; rather than ethanol, which has a lower carbon footprint.This is rather strange if you in your own words say that IPA is cheaper but has a higher carbon footprint then that is self explanatory they keep the carbon footprint lower even if it costs a bit more that is how they advertise it. And as I have stated it still works on the water problem.
You keep saying things that I already said, and then pretending that I didn't know about them.It's quite simple you stated that the ethanol will not aid in the removal of water in petrol and you have a problem believing that there can be any water in the petrol that is used to produce E10 fuel. It really is as simple as that. I have not changed my story at all But it looks like you are starting to come around very slowly I might add.
It's really silly when the whole discussion is recorded and searchable.
You actually quoted me saying it.When I stated the fuel line pickup is at the bottom of the tank I should have said in addition less 1/2 of an inch. And there should be a slite depression at the bottom of the tank to collect any non buoyant mater that has entered the fuel system over time. One other little point I would like to make is in the old days before the invention of the plastic fuel tank were you not aware with the amount of rust that the old metal tanks accumulated or was that before your time. And what makes rust?
That adding alcohol will increase the solubility of water?Ok, it sounds like you now agree that ethanol will work to aid in the mixing of water in the fuel that's a change of mind. Now all I have to do is convince you that there is a high chance of water being in the E10 fuel from the start.
We already know that.
What it won't tell you is if your original assertion
You have missed the point again the fact that the fuel line pickup is not at the very bottom of the tank is why I stated that it is important to keep any water accumulation below that level. And yes the ethanol is there to prevent the engine from failing as the fuel that it is mixed with on its own will have an octane level that is far too low and on its own, it will destroy your modern engine. And your other point of in the past we never had a problem running without ethanol well you tell that to all the people that did and has had water in their fuel. And I think your last point is the ethanol will act like soap or cleaning agent well maybe better than you think.This is nonsense. The car sits in the garage overnight, all the water (without without ethanol in it) settles out.But, if there's little or no water then the addition of ethanol to fuel can't be about water- which is what your opening pots was wrong about.The thing is if there is only a very small amount of water let's say 100 ml to a full tank of petrol that is not enuff water in the tank to be picked up with the addition of the alcohol as the car is in motion that little bit of water will mix and be picked up in very small amounts this gets rid of the water before more water becomes introduced to the system. Without the alcohol present, the water will accumulate leading to an amount that will get sucked up into the fuel line. The fact is that with alcohol in the system it will assist the water in becoming mixed with the aid of motion.
This isn't the end of the world- the fuel pipe does not reach the bottom of the tank (as Alan pointed out).
So, when you start the engine, it runs.
Now either the motion of the car is enough to suspend the water in the petrol, in which case small drops will be pulled through and not matter much, or it won't.
There are detergents added to fuel; those may well help the process.
The alcohol may also help.
IPA would do a better, cheaper job but you seem to think the oil companies are too stupid to use it (I hold a different view)
But cars worked fine before they started putting alcohol in fuel.
So the presence of the alcohol is not to prevent the car engine failing.
You state that, with no evidence and in the face of my counter-example.The only way to tell is to have two test samples two jars fill one 3/4 with E10 and add 1ml of water the other fill 3/4 with straight petrol and add 1ml of water lids on shaking both well at the same time and see. I bet you will see the straight petrol accumulate the blob of water at the bottom of the jar well ahead of the E10 sample and the water in the E10 sample will be in much smaller globules before it settles.
You are just wrong.
Yes they put the ethanol in to keep the greens happy-This is the main part of the problem the ethanol will assist in the mixing of water to the point that it still works the ethanol will break up the water into very small beads allowing it to pass through the system when the vehicle is in motion.
But, if there's little or no water then the addition of ethanol to fuel can't be about water- which is what your opening pots was wrong about.The thing is if there is only a very small amount of water let's say 100 ml to a full tank of petrol that is not enuff water in the tank to be picked up with the addition of the alcohol as the car is in motion that little bit of water will mix and be picked up in very small amounts this gets rid of the water before more water becomes introduced to the system. Without the alcohol present, the water will accumulate leading to an amount that will get sucked up into the fuel line. The fact is that with alcohol in the system it will assist the water in becoming mixed with the aid of motion.
What I find more entertaining than the ants are the squirrels that don't abide by the rule that the seed I put in the bird feeders is for the birds. From dawn to dusk, as long as I keep seed in the feeders, there is a steady stream of birds and squirrels at the feeders hanging outside my windows. And there is constant competition among the four of five squirrels that are almost always hanging around there. They love to cling to the feeders by their hind legs and eat until they get knocked off their perch by other squirrels or incoming birds.Good post. My wife loves taking photos of the birds around our home I take great pleasure in them as well You are very fortunate to have those little squirrels in your aria they must be a wonderful pleasure to watch. I think you are correct about the grasshopper he will have to be dismantled never mind. Keep up the good work and feed the little critters.
My bet is that this activity is universal, meaning the in a universe full of hospitable planets, of which some percentage of which are teaming with life, there are squirrels or their living equivalents jostling for the available food all of the time.