Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: Igor on 10/07/2006 15:31:01
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Does this device really work ?,
(wouldn't the copper pipe shield the water from the electric field ?).
If it does work, how does it work ?
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh300%2Fsotohp_photos%2Fscalewatcherpipe.jpg&hash=0099eb843480745762de4fcc29b8cbea)
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh300%2Fsotohp_photos%2FField.jpg&hash=dbfd0a760a07f4687c239cc872b16689)
http://www.scalewizard.co.uk/howitworks.htm
Here is a similar device:-
http://www.scalewatcher.co.uk/pages/whyScalewatcher.asp
"Scalewatcher" claims to use "audio frequency" signals.
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Have tried it, but without a great deal of success, although others claim greater success (my own area has exceptionally hard water – in the end, I bought an ion exchange unit, and that works great).
The copper is not a problem, since the idea of the coil is to create a magnetic, rather than electric, field; and the copper does not interfere with the magnetic field (may have a problem if you had iron pipes).
The theory behind it is that the oscillating magnetic field somehow alters the limescale so that it is less likely to stick to the side of the pipes, but simply flows out of the tap. This effect, if it is there at all, is transient (i.e. if you are using this device on a pipe leading into a tank, and the water is left standing in the tank for hours or days before being used, the effect will have been lost – it only claimed to work if you use the water fairly immediately after it has passed through the coil.
George
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quote:
Originally posted by another_someone
The theory behind it is that the oscillating magnetic field somehow alters the limescale so that it is less likely to stick to the side of the pipes, but simply flows out of the tap..
George
Thanks "Another",
can you or anyone else elucidate on how an alternating "magnetic" field can prevent limescale accumulating.
Does it impart an electric charge to cause the particles to repel one another and stop them sticking together ?.
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An extract from "The Skeptical Equirer" on this subject:-
" There is apparently no consensus among magnet vendors regarding the mechanisms by which magnetic water treatment occurs. A variety of explanations are offered, most of which involve plenty of jargon but little substance. Few vendors, if any, offer reasonable technical explanations of how magnetic water treatment is supposed to work.
The important question here, though, is whether magnetic water treatment works. In an effort to find the answer, I conducted a search for relevant scientific and engineering journal articles. I describe the results of this search below.
More than one hundred relevant articles and reports are available in the open literature, so clearly magnetic water treatment has received some attention from the scientific community (e.g., see reference list in Duffy 1977). The reported effects of magnetic water treatment, however, are varied and often contradictory. In many cases, researchers report finding no significant magnetic treatment effect. In other cases, however, reasonable evidence for an effect is provided.
Liburkin et al. (1986) found that magnetic treatment affected the structure of gypsum (calcium sulfate). Gypsum particles formed in magnetically treated water were found to be larger and "more regularly oriented" than those formed in ordinary water. Similarly, Kronenberg (1985) reported that magnetic treatment changed the mode of calcium carbonate precipitation such that circular disc-shaped particles are formed rather than the dendritic (branching or tree-like) particles observed in nontreated water. Others (e.g., Chechel and Annenkova 1972; Martynova et al. 1967) also have found that magnetic treatment affects the structure of subsequently precipitated solids. Because scale formation involves precipitation and crystallization, these studies imply that magnetic water treatment is likely to have an effect on the formation of scale.
Some researchers hypothesize that magnetic treatment affects the nature of hydrogen bonds between water molecules. They report changes in water properties such as light absorbance, surface tension, and pH (e.g., Joshi and Kamat 1966; Bruns et al. 1966; Klassen 1981). However, these effects have not always been found by later investigators (Mirumyants et al. 1972). Further, the characteristic relaxation time of hydrogen bonds between water molecules is estimated to be much too fast and the applied magnetic field strengths much too small for any such lasting effects, so it is unlikely that magnetic water treatment affects water molecules (Lipus et al. 1994)."
http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html
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I bought one of those devices, some years ago, with the coil to wrap round the pipe, But I couldn't detect any water-softening. I've still got the device, anyone want it to experiment with? postage only (I'm in the UK)
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I bought one of those devices, some years ago, with the coil to wrap round the pipe, But I couldn't detect any water-softening. I've still got the device, anyone want it to experiment with? postage only (I'm in the UK)
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I am interested to try this out to see if it works for me before buying. If you still have the device I would like to accept your generous offer, thankyou.
quote:
Originally posted by Roysyboy
I bought one of those devices, some years ago, with the coil to wrap round the pipe, But I couldn't detect any water-softening. I've still got the device, anyone want it to experiment with? postage only (I'm in the UK)
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I disconnected the old water softener that worked with salt. I then bought a device that is called 'Spam' It mounts directly on the incoming water pipe (copper, iron or plastic does not matter)and works with radio waves that alters the ions in the hard water
so they do not build up limescale inside the pipes. All existing lime scale will disappear. I had it now for a month and I had to lower the temperature in my water heater not to burn my self. Because limescale build up works as insulation inside the heater.
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I very much doubt whether a very strong magnetic field would have any effect let alone the few turns wrapped around the pipe in the illustration which presumably is making the supply meter buzz round.
I note this matter was first raised in 2006, these things continue to sell!.
Reading the enclosed links I notice that a small effect was noticed when a 4.7 T field was applied, considering the costs of producing this field and the small effect produced the economics don't look good.
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There is no good scientific reason why these devices should work as they are configured in particular because any effects they are likely to have will only be local to the device and they are not mounted where limescale is likely to build up