[endeavour (OP)]

Since science can be controversial at times, can we have an ethics debate subforum?

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Curiosity *may* have killed Schrödinger's cat

[NakedScientist]

Great suggestion - but who will run it ? Are you volunteering ?

TNS

[endeavour (OP)]

I can help out sure if that's what you mean, but I haven't been here that long so would need other members to participate although I'm sure they will.

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Curiosity *may* have killed Schrödinger's cat

[neilep]

If you're going to do an Ethics forum you may as well stick 'Morals' on there too......I would volunteer to run it...but I don't have any !!

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[Ylide]

Do morals and ethics really have anything to do with each other?  You can be a drunk, womanizing, drug using immoral jerk but still conduct ethical research.   Ethics = a code of behavior that is acceptable in a specific area.  (science, business, journalism, etc)  Morals = a code of behavior that is acceptable in a society.  There's some overlap but not much....morals are much less agreed upon between groups than are ethics.  



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[neilep]

....okay...just a friggin ethics forum then []!!...I've always thought there was a connection between the two as I have always thought that ethics is principally a theory or a system of values, specifically moral values !!.....and that's what I have to say about that !!


'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[Ylide]

I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'm just being pedantic.  =)  Morals are more of a societal level of acceptabile behavior.  Ethics are more of a personal or professional level of acceptable behavior.

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[neilep]

I'm not antagonized at all.....I  just think Ethics are by their very nature based on moral values and therefore are indelibly linked , that's all......I just felt that if there was going to be an ethical subforum then to also have a moral subforum would have been a natural addition............anyway.....no worries mate.

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[chris]

Yeah, it would definitely be unethical to have an ethics forum to the exclusion of a moral forum...

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
 - Groucho Marx

[roberth]

and I reckon it would be immoral, as well !

[Exodus]

I'm with robert... i think

[tweener]

Jay, by your own argument it sounds to me like ethics are a subset of morals as the personal or professional behavior (ethics) is always embedded in a society and driven by societal moral values.

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

[neilep]

Seems the very suggestion to have a forum based on ethics (and/or morals) has by it's very discussion ....created it.

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[DrN]

I think ethics in science, to the average scientist that is, is dictated by law anyway. anything we can do in the lab is legal, and so has been passed by all the ethics committees as being ethical, but it still not hold up to your own personal moral values. animal experiments for example, perfectly legal, but i wouldn't feel comfortable doing them.

[Corbeille]

I would not feel comfortable using my IT skills for the benefit of an arms manufacturer. If the IT company I work for were to take on a contract from one of the death merchants, I would have to refuse to make a contribution.
That's my ethics.

you can't crack me I'm a rubber duck!

[Ylide]

You can ethical without being moral.  Example:  Me.  I follow proper research ethics when researching and producing papers.  I do not cheat or plagiarize in classes.  However, I've been known to partake in my share of recreational pharmaceuticals, booze it up, gamble, and womanize.  Most of polite society would consider me immoral.  Not a single person in science or academia could call me unethical.

You can be moral without being ethical.  Example:  A doctor has a patient whom he has diagnosed with AIDS.  He learns that the patient is in a relationship and has not informed his partner.  He places an anonymous call to the partner to let him/her know.  His behavior here is moral but unethical.  (and probably illegal)

On an abstract level, sure, they're both codes of behavior.  However, they are implemented completely independently of each other.  Since this is primarily a science forum, I'd expect that discussions regarding codes of behavior would be mostly limited to ethics.  Ethics are fairly consistent between disciplines and professions.  Morals vary quite widely from person to person and culture to culture.  There's a rough parallel between ethics/science and morality/religion.  Do you see it?

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[gsmollin]

I did not expect to add anything here, but I have to relate this story.

I was employed by a large, aerospace corporation, that shall remain annonymous, for ethical reasons. The department was called together for a training session about "corporate ethics". No joke. The training aid was a game, called "Dilbert". We all got game pieces. We could move our piece through the board the number of points we received for giving the correct answer to questions posed by the department manager. Each game piece was represented by five people, working as a group. We had to discuss in out group, what our answer was before we gave it to the manager. Then we found out the right answer, got out points and moved our game pieces.

Well here was the first question:
You get an e-mail from your co-worker selling some Amway (or something). What should you do?

a. Buy some.
b. Ignore it.
c. Warn him that mis-use of company e-mail is against policy.
d. Report him to your supervisor.
e. Set up your own company e-mail sales to compete with him.

We decided that "c" was the best choice. We got 3 out of 5. The correct answer was "d". That opened my eyes. For the next question I said to my team-mates, "Forget what you learned in Sunday school, this is 'corporate ethics'. That means 1) protect upper management, and 2) screw everybody else. Find the answer that does both, and get a 5/5. There was some protest in the group, but I prevailed, and we began cleaning up the game.

We got to the final question:
You are going home on the bus and the woman next to you begins to tell you that her boss at your place of work is sexually harrassing her. What do you do?

a) Ask her to tell you more details.
b) Suggest she try to work it out with her boss.
c) Suggest she seek outside counseling.
d) Report this incident to the legal department.
e) Tell her it's not your problem.

By this time I was ready to win the game, so I got to explain the correct answer. I jokingly responded, "The REAL correct answer is 'Begin speaking in a foreign language and change your seat.'", but then I gave the real correct answer. "This woman is a walking, talking, litigation threat. You must get to legal immediately, if you are to protect upper management from a sexual harrassment lawsuit, and at the same time, ruin both this woman's career, and the career of her stupid boss. It's a slam-dunk corporate ethics coup. I was right, and my Dogbert piece won the game.

So you see, ethics and morals are not at all the same! Most of the problems we science and technology types face are from people applying their morality to our ethical behavior.