Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: amrit on 23/03/2004 20:59:09
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Does Time Really Exist
As A Fourth Dimension Of Space-time ?
Amrit Sorli, SpaceLife Institute,
Podere San Giorgio 16, 53012 Chiusdino (SI), Italy
spacelife@libero.it
Abstract
Regarding this question scientist should trust more his senses that his mind. Physical time exists only as a stream of change in physical space. Change does not "happen" in physical time -- change itself is physical time. This is a different and more correct perspective than the conventional view in physics, in which space-time is the theater or "stage" on which change happens.
Physical Time And Psychological time In the universe the passing of physical time cannot be clearly perceived as matter and space directly; one can perceive only irreversible physical, chemical, and biological changes in material media. On the basis of elementary perception (sight) one can conclude that physical time exists only as a stream of change that runs through material space. The terms "physical time" and "change" describe the same phenomenon. Physical time is irreversible. Change A transforms into change B, B transforms into C and so on. When B is in existence A does not exist anymore, when C is in existence B does not exist anymore.
The question arises: Why is it that irreversible physical time is experienced as past, present and future? The answer is obtained by analysing the scientific way of experiencing. The human senses perceive a stream of irreversible change. Once elaborated by the mind, the stream of change is experienced chronologically through psychological time that is a part of the human mind (1).
Let's look at the relationship between physical and psychological time by carrying out an experiment. Take a ball and allow it to roll down an incline. You can perceive only the movement of the ball in space, but you experience that the ball has also moved through time. How come? Perception passes first through psychological time and then the experience occurs. That's why you experience the movement of the ball in time. But on the basis of elementary perception (sight) one can only state that the ball has changed position in space.
By observing the continuous stream of irreversible physical change humans have developed psychological time through which we experience the universe. Psychological time is reversible. One can return to the past, in psychological time, through memory. This creates an idea that physical time also has a past, but this is not so.
Relativity Theory allows for speculation about time travel. It is possible for someone to travel through a black hole with a spaceship, go back into the past and kill his grandmother? The consequence is that he could never have been born (2). Travelling into the past through black holes is not possible because physical time is irreversible; the past exists only as psychological time through which it is not possible to travel with a spaceship.
The speed of psychological time does not always follow physical time, it depends on one's well-being. The more relaxed you are the slower the speed of psychological time is. In modern society time passes quickly, in so called primitive societies time passed slowly. In an altered state of consciousness, such as meditation, ecstatic dance, deep prayer, psychological time stops.
In abnormal state of health, there are aberration of subjective time such as acceleration or deceleration of lapse of time. Under several mental disturbances (like those characterising serious mental psychoses, drug-induced states, trances, mediations, as well as other deep "altered" states of consciousness), these anomalies / peculiarities become more pronounced. The flux of time may even cease completely (the sensations usually described as "time standing still", or "suspended", arrested" time or expand without limit (the feelings of "everlasting now, eternity") (3).
The understanding of physical time has changed over the ages. For ancient Greeks, Indians, and Mayans, time was considered a cyclic phenomenon; time moving in circles, with no beginning and no end. When Judaeo-Christian civilization arose in Europe, another understanding of time became prominent - time going forward in a straight line. According to this civilization, time has its beginning with God’s creation of the universe and will have its end with the Last Judgement. In Newtonian physics, physical time is an independent quantity (absolute time), running uniformly throughout the entire cosmic space (absolute space). In the Theory of Relativity, time is no more an independent physical quantity - it is linked with space in four-dimensional space-time. Here physical time is understood as a stream of irreversible change that runs through physical space.
Linear And Cyclic Concept Of Time In Cosmology The understanding of time have been different over the ages. For ancient Greeks, Indians, and Mayans, time was considered a cyclic phenomena. In Judaeo-Christian civilization as linear phenomena. In current scientific thought the concept of linear time is still prevalent. Stephan Hawkins says: "The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. Nevertheless, the way the universe began would have been determined by the laws of physics, if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition. This says that in the imaginary time direction, space-time is finite in extent, but doesn't have any boundary or edge. The predictions of the no boundary proposal seem to agree with observation. The no boundary hypothesis also predicts that the universe will eventually collapse again. However, the contracting phase, will not have the opposite arrow of time, to the expanding phase. So we will keep on getting older, and we won't return to our youth. Because time is not going to go backwards, think I better stop now." (4)
Some recent cosmological models describe universe is a self-renewing system. Big bangs are cyclic. Transformation of the energy of matter into the energy of the space and vice versa is in a permanent dynamic equilibrium, universe has no beginning and no end. It is made of one energy that appears as space and as matter. (5) In the cosmological model of dynamic equilibrium time is a cyclic phenomena, a permanent dynamics between matter and space. It has no beginning and no end.
Time Is Change We can measure with clocks speed and duration of change. By Newton and in Theory of Relativity time is an abstract physical quantity that can not be perceived clearly. Here time is visible. According to this understanding the "t" in physical formulas means "duration of change". For example:
d (distance) = v (speed of change) x t (duration of change)
In the Special Relativity the "theater" of the four dimensional space-time can be replaced with the three dimensional physical space. Lets imagine that a train is passing a station with the speed v. The observer on the train throws a ball that is rolling on the floor of the corridor. The duration (time) of ball rolling will be for him t' (regarding the fourth equation of Lorentz transformation, see below), for the observer on the embankment the duration (time) of the ball rolling will be t.
(fourth equation of Lorentz transformation)
The doubt that "space-time" is the ultimate arena of the universe was raised by Dirac and recently by Julian Barbour: "On a beautiful October afternoon in 1936 I ravelled to the Bavarian Alps with a student friend, Jurgen. We planned to spend the night in a hut and climb to the peak of Watzmann at down next day. On the train, I read an article about Dirac's attempt to unify Einstein's theory of relativity with quantum theory. A single sentence in it was to transform my life: "This result has let me to doubt how fundamental the four-dimensional requirement in physics is". In other words Dirac was doubting that most wonderful creation of twentieth-century physics: the fusion of space and time into space-time." (6)
In his book "The End Of Time" Barbour discusses brilliantly about time, but his final conclusions are against the elementary perception and seems to be wrong: "In fact, 35 years on from that failed attempt on the Watzmann, I know believe that time does not exists at all, and that motion itself is pure illusion. What is more, I believe there is quite strong support in physics for his view. I have a vision and I have to tell you about it." (7)
In the rational and also in the conscious experience motion is real, not an illusion. The main difference is that in the rational experience past and future are consistent parts of the world; conscious experience brings awareness that the only existing physical reality is the one that can be perceived and measured, past exists only as a memory, future exist only as an imagination.
That time does not exist as a fourth dimension of space-time and that with clocks we measure only duration of change was also discussed in the author book "Konec casa" (The End Of Time). (8)
Physical Space And Its Mathematical Description Position of an object in physical space can be defined with three coordinates. That's why in daily life we experience it as three dimensional. Three dimensional Euclid geometry corresponds better the nature of the physical space than other geometries do. In cosmology physical space is experienced through different mathematical models: three-dimensional infinite Euclid geometry, four dimensional geometry of Minkowsky, four dimensional finite spherical Riemann geometry. Cosmologists should develop awareness that mathematical model and physical space are two different things.
Conclusion Scientific understanding of time and space should be revised on the basis of elementary perception. Einstein says: "Reality is a feature of theory used to understand the world, rather than a feature of the world itself. One is danger of being misled by the illusion that the "real" of our daily experience, "exists really", and that certain concepts of physics are "mere ideas" separated from the " real " by an unbridgeable gulf." (9)
References:
1. Sorli A. (2004). Physical Time And Psychological Time. Frontier Perspectives, Vol 13, Num 1
2. Davies P. (1995). About Time. Chapter 11, Time Travels: Reality of Fantasy? Orion Productions
3. Buccheri R., Saniga M. (2003), Endo-Physical Paradigm and Mathematics of Subjective Time.
Frontier Perspectives, Vol 12, Num 1
4. Hawking S. The Beginning of Time. Public Lectures. http://www.hawking.org.uk/text/public/bot.html
5. Sorli A., Sorli K. (2004). Evolution As A Universal Process. Frontier Perspectives, Vol 13, Num 1
6. Barbour J. (1999). The End Of Time. Oxford University Press, p. 2
7. Barbour J. (1999). The End Of Time. Oxford University Press, p. 4
8. Sorli A. (1990). Konec Casa (The End Of Time), Ljubljana, Slovenia, p. 93-96
9. Einstein A. http://www.edscuola.it/archivio/lre/manzelli.html
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Interesting essay, but it leaves one begging the question, "So what is time, after all?" Time has always been so unsatisfying. We all want to go back and do something over in out lives. We can go back to that place, but not the time. We stand at the scene of our "crime" (maybe only against ourselves), and listen to the winds of time continuing to blow that past further away. We live only in the present.
Time travel into the past is not possible. The worm-hole gestalt experiments take more energy to conclude than the universe can supply. Time travel into the future is simple. Travel at a relatavistic speed, and you will travel into the future. But you can't go back.
So what is time, after all? Why is it different? We may not ever have a psychologically satisfying answer, but I think I know why. We cannot experience time in a satisfying manner because it is the one dimension that is in constant movement, and it moves at the speed of light. We can virtually prove this, by looking into the night sky. We see the moon as it was 2 seconds ago, the planets as they were hours ago, stars as they were years ago, galaxies as they were millions of years ago, and the CBR as it was at the dawn of the universe. So the past is all around us, we are immersed in it. But our own personal past is receding from us at the speed of light, and cannot be seen again.
The mathematician Minkowski probably explained it best when he described his world coordinate system of x, y, z, and -ict. "i" is the complex operator, rotating the time dimension out of the x, y, and z space. "c" is the speed of light. The best thing about this formulation is its consistent set of units- meters or whatever. The second best thing is that it explains why time never goes backward; because it is moving at the speed of light in the reverse direction already. Time recedes into our past at the speed of light, and we can't catch it. However, any serious attempts to catch it will result in our own time slowing down, i.e., time dilation. Once again, the world coordinates show us why. With time already pushing us through the world at the speed of light, any attempts to go faster result in time slowing down, and not receding at -c anymore. If we were to travel at c to try to catch it, we could, it would stop. But since we can't go faster than c, we can't make it go backwards. So there is no going back.
What do we do with all this? We resolve to live each second to its fullest because they are fleeting away at the speed of light. There is no going back, so do your living here and now.
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That is an interesting theory of time. I've never heard it before. Most physicists say that there is nothing in any of the accepted theories that says time can only go forward, though there is no experimental evidence for it going any other direction.
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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
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The concept of time has been debated for centuries, but can briefly be summed in 2 ways:
1) time as an OBJECTIVE phenomena - existing independent of any observer. This was most clearly delineated by Newton. Einstein's Theory Of Relativity was simply a new way of attempting to understand time as objective.
2) time as a subjective phenomena - a psychological concept existing in the minds of men. The German philosopher Immanuel Kant proposed this in his iconic work The Critique Of Pure Reason.
There is a NEW understanding of time which combines BOTH concepts: that time is peculiar to a material physical universe containing space, matter and energy, which was CREATED by non-spatial, non-material eternal spiritual beings, continues to be unwittingly be created BY AGREEMENT and without such an agreement, would not exist.
The following is an excerpt from my booklet The Fifth Component which explains this concept of time:
When I try to enlighten people that they are not their bodies but are, in fact, eternal spiritual beings, one of the difficulties they have is trying to comfortably conceive the notion of eternity or eternal time, or forever.
The idea of living forever can be pretty mind-boggling and even over-whelming. Trillions upon quad-zillions of years. But this is a misunderstanding of the correct viewpoint of time. Time is considered to be a force, a phenomenal dimension not unlike matter and energy. But time is no more than the movement of mass (which is condensed energy) through space, from one location to another. The measurement of the moment of matter moving from one spot to another is time, be it a minute sub-atomic electron whizzing around a proton nucleus or a galaxy orbiting around the universe. Time is one of the four basic components of the physical universe, the other 3 being space, matter and energy. One might also add the FIFTH COMPONENT – spiritual beings – the authors of this universe, without whose agreement there would not be a physical universe.
Thus time, like the other 3 components of the universe, does not exist without beings to create and perceive it. Time only has relevancy to life and living things. And as time is only the measurement of the condensed energy (matter) created by spiritual beings moving through the space created by spiritual beings, time exists SOLEY and ONLY because you, me and thee made it so and CONTINUE to make it so. Are you trying to tell me that I created time, and continue to create it, and time --- as well as the other 3 components --- doesn’t exist if I don’t create it? Seems hard to believe, but it happens to be true. The Buddhists had an inkling of this. For most of us Time rules our lives like an almost unforgiving authoritarian god: we’ve got to be to work on time, to school on time, to bed on time, taxes have to be filed on time and we all have our birthday and date with the grim reaper. But the question is, who’s in control here? Does time control you or do you MAKE time?
Now, the universe and all the beings and things in it don’t need your permission to continue to exist but YOU need to acknowledge their existence for them to exist in YOUR universe and to be a partner in the physical universe. And this you automatically do without even a second thought. That acknowledgement IS the constant creation, and without it, there is no matter, energy, space and time. I guarantee you that if all the beings in this universe were to somehow agree that at such-and-such time the universe would cease to exist IT WOULD! And all the mighty suns and stars and planets and all material things attached to them would disappear! And as there would be nothing to move about in any space there would be no time! Amazingly, that’s how ephemeral and transparent this knuckleheaded physical universe really is and how potentially powerful YOU are. Of course, in our current condition, when you miss the nail and hit your thumb with a hammer the physical universe is not some wispy illusion but very real -- painfully real.
Time is felt, as a perception --- which is quite a subject in itself --- and in your own little or big universe you are constantly changing your relationship with time. Some people get impatient standing in line at the supermarket and for other people it’s not a problem. The occasions when you were under the influence you will recall you had very different perceptions about time. When you were a child before being indoctrinated into the world of clocks and watches there was lots of time, and, seemingly, as you age, time seems to shrink. But perceiving time is NOT the same as CREATING time.
When you DO something, YOU CREATE time. When you agree to and with the motion of other beings and things you create time. Time is a constant create. So the correct way of understanding time is that it is always NOW. Hence there really is no “then” or “before”. Neither is there “later”. Of course one can conceive of the past and future but that is all dependant upon what you have done or what you plan to do. When you DO it, that is time. So time is always NOW. The mistake in considering eternity is viewing it as movement, a change (in space) with a beginning, and always moving, changing to a far way end that is never reached. That is conceiving time as an effect – motion through space – and its effect (“aging”, etc) on you. But eternity is actually the forever NOW that YOU are constantly creating by your actions, inactions (same thing, really) or your agreement with the motion of other beings and things.
Think of eternal time as ALWAYS NOW! It never really begins. It never really changes. It never really ends. So long as YOU are there to create space and condensed energy and move it. Then, and ONLY then, can you agree to the idea that things and events have a beginning, go through change and eventually end. This cycle of time and action is, of course, one of the powerful illusions we all agree to and with, making life a surely interesting game. But actually, it’s always now, wherever you are, wherever you go, whatever you do. That’s forever. Forever is eternal NOW. It’s what you create. And as you are always creating something all the time (no pun intended), you are always creating forever.
Hope this helps.
GB Randolph
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I have just realised that there are worse ways of posting than shouting in capitals
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So what is time, after all? Why is it different? We may not ever have a psychologically satisfying answer, but I think I know why.
We cannot experience time in a satisfying manner because it is the one dimension that is in constant movement, and it moves at the speed of light.
We can virtually prove this, by looking into the night sky. We see the moon as it was 2 seconds ago, the planets as they were hours ago, stars as they were years ago, galaxies as they were millions of years ago, and the CBR as it was at the dawn of the universe.
So the past is all around us, we are immersed in it. But our own personal past is receding from us at the speed of light, and cannot be seen again.
So can we perceive, the the Universe is not expanding in distance, and it really that time is trying to catch up to our present, using light reflection?
Just looking at the sky of course, dawn being referred to as a representation of time.
My concept as it is a personal view, however flawed it may be.
Really as I can see that Time can not be touched by our senses, it is a man made entity, used to index and categorize specific event sequence and speed.
Time as a dimension, exists as long as there is self awareness of sequence of events, but the building blocks sequence of the universe is in working timely path, even thought it was chaos to begin with.
A solid cube has the X,Y,Z dimensions relative to any one viewing perspective.
In any one view, we can only assume the other relative views at one time, even after experiencing the other views, unless it were transparent, then it will not have the solid viewing properties.
We can not experience them all in a single moment in time.
Where the other three dimensions X,Y,Z are more concrete.
To experience the concept, time, as in the past, how do you manipulate something you can not touch?
You can not so maybe you can manipulate the concrete dimensions by turning the cube inside out.
But if you do, it would have to be done faster then light speed in order to see it as it was, before it was turned inside out, or you will be stuck inside the cube, in the present, looking out.
That involves speed, going full circle, distance over time.
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I have just realised that there are worse ways of posting than shouting in capitals
Yes, indeed. We should be thankful that he didn't use coloured text as well.
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I have just realised that there are worse ways of posting than shouting in capitals
Yes, indeed. We should be thankful that he didn't use coloured text as well.
WHAT DID YOU SAY?
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The concept of time has been debated for centuries, but can briefly be summed in 2 ways:
1) time as an OBJECTIVE phenomena - existing independent of any observer. This was most clearly delineated by Newton. Einstein's Theory Of Relativity was simply a new way of attempting to understand time as objective.
2) time as a subjective phenomena - a psychological concept existing in the minds of men. The German philosopher Immanuel Kant proposed this in his iconic work .
The Critique Of Pure Reason.
There is a NEW understanding of time which combines BOTH concepts: that time is peculiar to a material physical universe containing space, matter and energy, which was CREATED by non-spatial, non-material eternal spiritual beings, continues to be unwittingly be created BY AGREEMENT and without such an agreement, would not exist.
The following is an excerpt from my booklet The Fifth Component which explains this concept of time:
When I try to enlighten people that they are not their bodies but are, in fact, eternal spiritual beings, one of the difficulties they have is trying to comfortably conceive the notion of eternity or eternal time, or forever.
The idea of living forever can be pretty mind-boggling and even over-whelming. Trillions upon quad-zillions of years. But this is a misunderstanding of the correct viewpoint of time. Time is considered to be a force, a phenomenal dimension not unlike matter and energy. But time is no more than the movement of mass (which is condensed energy) through space, from one location to another. The measurement of the moment of matter moving from one spot to another is time, be it a minute sub-atomic electron whizzing around a proton nucleus or a galaxy orbiting around the universe. Time is one of the four basic components of the physical universe, the other 3 being space, matter and energy. One might also add the FIFTH COMPONENT – spiritual beings – the authors of this universe, without whose agreement there would not be a physical universe.
Thus time, like the other 3 components of the universe, does not exist without beings to create and perceive it. Time only has relevancy to life and living things. And as time is only the measurement of the condensed energy (matter) created by spiritual beings moving through the space created by spiritual beings, time exists SOLEY and ONLY because you, me and thee made it so and CONTINUE to make it so. Are you trying to tell me that I created time, and continue to create it, and time --- as well as the other 3 components --- doesn’t exist if I don’t create it? Seems hard to believe, but it happens to be true. The Buddhists had an inkling of this. For most of us Time rules our lives like an almost unforgiving authoritarian god: we’ve got to be to work on time, to school on time, to bed on time, taxes have to be filed on time and we all have our birthday and date with the grim reaper. But the question is, who’s in control here? Does time control you or do you MAKE time?
Now, the universe and all the beings and things in it don’t need your permission to continue to exist but YOU need to acknowledge their existence for them to exist in YOUR universe and to be a partner in the physical universe. And this you automatically do without even a second thought. That acknowledgement IS the constant creation, and without it, there is no matter, energy, space and time. I guarantee you that if all the beings in this universe were to somehow agree that at such-and-such time the universe would cease to exist IT WOULD! And all the mighty suns and stars and planets and all material things attached to them would disappear! And as there would be nothing to move about in any space there would be no time! Amazingly, that’s how ephemeral and transparent this knuckleheaded physical universe really is and how potentially powerful YOU are. Of course, in our current condition, when you miss the nail and hit your thumb with a hammer the physical universe is not some wispy illusion but very real -- painfully real.
Time is felt, as a perception --- which is quite a subject in itself --- and in your own little or big universe you are constantly changing your relationship with time. Some people get impatient standing in line at the supermarket and for other people it’s not a problem. The occasions when you were under the influence you will recall you had very different perceptions about time. When you were a child before being indoctrinated into the world of clocks and watches there was lots of time, and, seemingly, as you age, time seems to shrink. But perceiving time is NOT the same as CREATING time.
When you DO something, YOU CREATE time. When you agree to and with the motion of other beings and things you create time. Time is a constant create. So the correct way of understanding time is that it is always NOW. Hence there really is no “then” or “before”. Neither is there “later”. Of course one can conceive of the past and future but that is all dependant upon what you have done or what you plan to do. When you DO it, that is time. So time is always NOW. The mistake in considering eternity is viewing it as movement, a change (in space) with a beginning, and always moving, changing to a far way end that is never reached. That is conceiving time as an effect – motion through space – and its effect (“aging”, etc) on you. But eternity is actually the forever NOW that YOU are constantly creating by your actions, inactions (same thing, really) or your agreement with the motion of other beings and things.
Think of eternal time as ALWAYS NOW! It never really begins. It never really changes. It never really ends. So long as YOU are there to create space and condensed energy and move it. Then, and ONLY then, can you agree to the idea that things and events have a beginning, go through change and eventually end. This cycle of time and action is, of course, one of the powerful illusions we all agree to and with, making life a surely interesting game. But actually, it’s always now, wherever you are, wherever you go, whatever you do. That’s forever. Forever is eternal NOW. It’s what you create. And as you are always creating something all the time (no pun intended), you are always creating forever.
Hope this helps.
GB Randolph
OK can U hear me now? I FIXed it for U
[:o)]
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I have just realised that there are worse ways of posting than shouting in capitals
Yes, indeed. We should be thankful that he didn't use coloured text as well.
WHAT DID YOU SAY?
Just as well he didn't use underlined capitals in coloured text whilst jumping off a cliff!!
>>> Eh, Geezer [;D]
>>>(There's always one!!)<<<<
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yes.