Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: Karen W. on 17/03/2020 07:16:44
-
Do they still use germ warfare to fight wars these days?
I am asking because these outbreaks started after NK started saying they were sending the united states a Christmas present?
So Naturally, I am curious as to weather such viruses are used like they used to be?
Nk has been known to use them in the past? My mind is racing, having a lot of time to think while in isolation?
I am sure, I am not the only person who has seen the time coincidences, between the verbal sparring back and forth, between the countries, and threats on both sides. And then the outbreaks starting.
-
Even NK would probably think twice about setting a virus loose in China, in the hope of attacking the US.
-
I would like to think so.
I hope your well Bored Chemist.
-
So I guess the first case in China was November 17th.
It was a bit before I heard about it...
-
Biological weapons don't tend to stay where you put them.
Any person or organisation releasing a biological weapon is likely to suffer the effects in their own country/city/family.
-
Biological weapons don't tend to stay where you put them.
Any person or organisation releasing a biological weapon is likely to suffer the effects in their own country/city/family.
Yes that's what I understood also after reading up on these things. This is a rather Narly virus..
-
Given the unusual relationship between age and severity, one could be forgiven for wondering whether it had been designed by a millenial or genZ for generational warfare.
But paranoid thinking will not help the situation.
A recent analysis of its genome highly suggests natural evolutionary origins...
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9.pdf
-
Do they still use germ warfare to fight wars these days?
I am asking because these outbreaks started after NK started saying they were sending the united states a Christmas present?
So Naturally, I am curious as to weather such viruses are used like they used to be?
Nk has been known to use them in the past? My mind is racing, having a lot of time to think while in isolation?
I am sure, I am not the only person who has seen the time coincidences, between the verbal sparring back and forth, between the countries, and threats on both sides. And then the outbreaks starting.
Hi Karen. :)
Hard to say. Some talk about bats and this virus coming from wildlife.
I have seen chatter suggesting there was an accidental release from the military Bio weapons lab at Fort Detrick which the CDC closed last year. Suggestions follow that infected military personnel attended the wuhan military games that took place in October.
Also chatter about a bio lab in wuhan itself, leaking the virus.
Both relate to accidental release..
Seems strange that China would suppress information about a new virus as they did initially.
Apparently there is also chatter about Corona being present in America in November.
Chatter that China apparently has been saying DNA evidence is suggesting China isnt the source of the outbreak...
I have heard chatter that people in Hong Kong were talking about a new virus back in October.
Also heard chatter that 2 studies one from Russia and another from
India are claiming that this virus was created.
And there is lots if chatter about this being released intentionally to control population or get rid of cash and push for all electronic money.
Lots of chatter... but nothing concrete.
Hard to say
-
Yes I've heard a lot of the same kind of rumors and I I just asked the question out of curiosity because it popped into my head, I'm not a not a conspiracy theorist. Thank you for the replies...
-
I read an article yesterday that said it was like two of the different corona viruses that had actually been introduced into one host simultaneously that may have actually made it able to become human transmitted to humans something like that I'll look for the article. Not sure how reliable it was? Not in any way insinuating that they were introduced by a human, but somehow invaded the host whatever that actually was at the same time creating this new strain..at least that was my understanding of what I had read.
-
I read an article yesterday that said it was like two of the different corona viruses that had actually been introduced into one host simultaneously that may have actually made it able to become human transmitted to humans something like that I'll look for the article. Not sure how reliable it was? Not in any way insinuating that they were introduced by a human, but somehow invaded the host whatever that actually was at the same time creating this new strain..at least that was my understanding of what I had read.
I heard a doctor suggest the virus had 4 separate inserts. One from HIV and another from SARS.
He claimed the chances of SARS-CO2 being zoological are unlikely.
But that's one doctors opinion.
-
Yes.. I have read multiple views and yesterday I read that it's been rolled out that it could have been a human created virus but instead they believe it may have been around kinda dormant in humans for Avery long time and that at some point long ago it was initially in a animal..like bat snake etc...but that at some point it was transferred into humans who may have already harbored a differentiate..and for whatever reason became actively a deadly virus now apparently..but my memory may have some of that mixed up..but have you all heard that yet?
-
Yes.. I have read multiple views and yesterday I read that it's been rolled out that it could have been a human created virus but instead they believe it may have been around kinda dormant in humans for Avery long time and that at some point long ago it was initially in a animal..like bat snake etc...but that at some point it was transferred into humans who may have already harbored a differentiate..and for whatever reason became actively a deadly virus now apparently..but my memory may have some of that mixed up..but have you all heard that yet?
I have now. Thanks Karen
Honestly right now have a strange feeling that the western leaders are refusing to impose mandatory face masks because of negative liberty and how it's maintained. Not sure what's more disgraceful the practice itself or the endangering of the public safety to continue it.
-
I hope the world regard this covid-19 outbreak as a valuable lesson in many ways.
[1] If ever we have real biological warfare, we may never get out of the quamire it creates.
Imagine if different entities decide to unleash viruses in attack and retaliation;
What if small idependent entities decide to collect covid-19 hosts to keep the viruses for future attacks?
A small group of people can infect the world and just live on a small island to wait for the world to fall apart and then come back. Something similar has already happened- the Sarin metro attack in Japan for example.
-
Unless it's proved that it's a the result of a biological war expriment, we'll never know. Sooner or later a germ warfare virus will eascape. The stitched together from 4 seperate viruses sounds farcical. The evolved naturally explanation ignores the (obvious) possibility that a germ warfare outfit might well take a bat corona virus, infect another species and then test that on humans. If I had to bet I'd go with natural not manmade, but I can only justify that with statistics - there will be several nasty corona viruses over the 100 years starting with sars but manmade ones will be nil or the minority.
-
Yes.. I have read multiple views and yesterday I read that it's been rolled out that it could have been a human created virus but instead they believe it may have been around kinda dormant in humans for Avery long time and that at some point long ago it was initially in a animal..like bat snake etc...but that at some point it was transferred into humans who may have already harbored a differentiate..and for whatever reason became actively a deadly virus now apparently..but my memory may have some of that mixed up..but have you all heard that yet?
I have now. Thanks Karen
Honestly right now have a strange feeling that the western leaders are refusing to impose mandatory face masks because of negative liberty and how it's maintained. Not sure what's more disgraceful the practice itself or the endangering of the public safety to continue it.
Boy Jolly isn't that terrible! They need to do it and no arguments... The masks have to offer some sort of protection from community spread.....its sad that its not being more sternly enforced until we have this virus under control...I agree with you...
-
I am of the mindset that I would rather not believe that people would do this or purposely do this.that its so crazy to think anyone would want to jeopardize the lives of millions upon millions of people because of political or any other reasons.. I try hard daily to believe we all have much more respect for humanity than that would imply otherwise... I hate that glimmer of doubt that made me even ask this question to begin with. So sad.. All the daily reports of loved ones and others loved ones all across the world suffering now with sickness and the death this virus has brought...I love humanity and feel my heart breaking more every day I see those numbers raise and people still thinking it's not real..its a hoax... :'(
I don't want to play the blame game.. I believe in my more intelligent part of my mind that this was a natural occurrence and so we just need to pull together and fix it... Which I believe is being worked on hourly by wonderful scientists and Doctors right now...All of us who are not able to do that part can still do plenty by listening to the CDC and The doctors and scientists...when they tell us how to help ourselves sheltering in, masks, hand washing cleaning etc....we all need to help...
-
I am of the mindset that I would rather not believe that people would do this or purposely do this.that its so crazy to think anyone would want to jeopardize the lives of millions upon millions of people because of political or any other reasons..
You know, those SJWs tend to only see the bad side of people, so they dismiss everyone and subconsciously believe that they are above them.
-
It is being used as a political and economic weapon in the USA. Republican mayors and governors are opposing lockdown and preaching their usual motherhood, apple pie and future greatness, in the hope that the majority of survivors will forget the dead and vote for the guy who told them they would survive. Trump's coterie don't believe their official bullshit and have divested themselves of airline and hotel stocks and bought medical company shares - but not in hospitals, where the profit is in elective surgery. There's a possibility that the governor of Georgia may be charged with attempted genocide or at least reckless endangerment of an island population, though he will of course get a pardon from the new Life President of the Free World or his son-in-law.
The only hope for the rest of us is that the WHO quarantines the entire USA for a generation.
-
I am sure that lots of entities, be they individuals, small groups, mega cults, . . . have been inspired by the devastation of covid-19 that biological methods of attack can be very cheap, easy to make, devastating, and difficult to trace who did it.
To keep the viruses, wouldn't refrigerated test tubes be sufficient?
If not, they just need a constant supply of hosts.
After the warnings of the best minds, delivered prominently through Bill Gates since 2015, I think defence ought to take a completely new look, whether this massive wasted race of technical fire arms can ever make the world safer.
-
So according to this Article Sarscov2 might attack the Immune system in the same way HIV does
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3079443/coronavirus-could-target-immune-system-targeting-protective
So if this was a created Virus looks like they added HIV and SARS to the common Cold.
Trying to gain herd immunity to this Virus is an insane idea. We still don't have anywhere near enough information about it.
Everyone should wear a mask when outside. Make your own if you cant find one.
-
Do they still use germ warfare to fight wars these days?
I am asking because these outbreaks started after NK started saying they were sending the united states a Christmas present?
So Naturally, I am curious as to weather such viruses are used like they used to be?
Nk has been known to use them in the past? My mind is racing, having a lot of time to think while in isolation?
I am sure, I am not the only person who has seen the time coincidences, between the verbal sparring back and forth, between the countries, and threats on both sides. And then the outbreaks starting.
Our military spent billions on developing chemical and biological warfare.
As of this moment, demand for hospital services related to this virus have eased.
-
it's all incredibly scary and so devastating..... So many people dead all over the world...it's horrible. I can't stand Trump he scares the wits out of me......and now all this be other crud feels like it's all part of his agenda!
-
it's all incredibly scary and so devastating..... So many people dead all over the world...it's horrible. I can't stand Trump he scares the wits out of me......and now all this be other crude feels like it's all part of his agenda!
Life ends too soon for us all. Easy to forget. We are not here long. We are a vapor, morning dew and by late morning we're gone. I remember standing on our porch shouting to some kids asking as they rode by on their bikes, who they had for their teacher next year in fourth grade, thinking, "Man, I'm growing up fast. Fourth Grade Baby!" The next dimension is going to be so cool, words can't describe it. Forever and forever.
-
That's true how fast time flies...
-
Do they still use germ warfare to fight wars these days?
I am asking because these outbreaks started after NK started saying they were sending the united states a Christmas present?
So Naturally, I am curious as to weather such viruses are used like they used to be?
Nk has been known to use them in the past? My mind is racing, having a lot of time to think while in isolation?
I am sure, I am not the only person who has seen the time coincidences, between the verbal sparring back and forth, between the countries, and threats on both sides. And then the outbreaks starting.
Our military spent billions on developing chemical and biological warfare.
As of this moment, demand for hospital services related to this virus have eased.
Dr Francis Boyle, Has claimed that research started at Fort Detrick in America and conjointly conducted in Wuhan China is the source of Covid19.
There was a few weeks ago a news report into American funding of the Wuhan Laboratorie.
Interestingly also Dr Boyle also claims Australian labs were shown to have been employed to add HIV into covid19.
Hence Doctor Boyle is claiming the an accidental release of a Bioweapon, that America, China and Australia all had a hand in creating.
He claims international cover up as all these nations have been breaking international law in order to conduct this type of research.
-
Personally, I cannot believe that advanced nations were purposefully creating, especially jointly creating biological weapons.
It simply does not make sense to create non-specific biological weapons which can harm the self as much as enemies.
Once a biological weapon is launched, and the opposition do the same, then it is mutual destruction, and there is no way of getting out of this mess because it is virtually undetectable who did it. This becomes a quamire because every side cannot trust each other. So rational nations would not go near biological weapons based on pathogens.
Even if you have informers, there is always the possibility that the informant is motivated by a 3rd side for political purpose. That is the problem with information wars. You can never prove that you have not been tricked, or draw the wrong conclusions.
-
Personally, I cannot believe that advanced nations were purposefully creating, especially jointly creating biological weapons.
It simply does not make sense to create non-specific biological weapons which can harm the self as much as enemies.
Once a biological weapon is launched, and the opposition do the same, then it is mutual destruction, and there is no way of getting out of this mess because it is virtually undetectable who did it. This becomes a quamire because every side cannot trust each other. So rational nations would not go near biological weapons based on pathogens.
Even if you have informers, there is always the possibility that the informant is motivated by a 3rd side for political purpose. That is the problem with information wars. You can never prove that you have not been tricked, or draw the wrong conclusions.
Which is a nice idea but totally flawed as shown by necular weapons that are even worse.
-
Nuclear weapons were originally conceived as bombs delivered by planes & rockets to win WWII. That was rational.
-
I guess it will be for sure as a hidden weapon to destroy the country's economy.
-
Dr Francis Boyle, Has claimed that research started at Fort Detrick in America and conjointly conducted in Wuhan China is the source of Covid19.
And his claim can be dismissed without evidence- the same way it was made.
-
Some interesting analysis here on the natural v man made question
https://gnews.org/192144/
-
Some interesting analysis here on the natural v man made question
https://gnews.org/192144/
Thank you for the link. I have just finished reading the whole thing.. it has some very interesting information..I wish I understood more about these things. we can't believe a thing coming from Trump and he just tries to make us distrust each other and the CDC and news it's all part of his divide and conquer...stratedgy.. to get things his way...confuses me seriously........
-
Looks to me, the GOP {Republicans, Conservatves, Whiggs} has already used covid-19 as germ warfare against Democrat colleagues and their potential voters:-
[1] this link points to a seethingly furious Democrat explaining that GOP covid+ colleagues are deliberately spreading the virus to Democrats & their families;
R
[2] Do you remember that New York's mayor Cuomo was accusing Trump of purposefully allocating anti-pandemic resources (even confiscating as well) according to the party they support;
[3] And then there is the under allocation of funds to help the population to shelter, which means the poverty striken minorities have to work while the virus rages. And the corresponding consequences of infecting the elderly in homes.
Was it war with economic & political advantageous? (This one is conspiracy suspicion.)
-
[2] and [3] are using money as a weapon. They do it all the time, not specific to covid.
[1] is a pretty ***ty way to behave, but the sort of thing I'd expect.
-
If we didn't know it already, their citizens an expendible commodity to many world leaders.
-
So a Spainsh study of sewage samples has confirmed that covid19 was in Barcelona in March 2019.
Spain regularly freezes sewage smaples and keeps a record.
And apparently there are 6 inserts in Covid19. 4 of the inserts make the virus more infectious in humans.
The only place a similar virus has been found is in a laboratory.
Quote "it is now for people that argue a natural zoological origin to provide the evidence"
-
So a Spainsh study of sewage samples has confirmed that covid19 was in Barcelona in March 2019.
Spain regularly freezes sewage smaples and keeps a record.
And apparently there are 6 inserts in Covid19. 4 of the inserts make the virus more infectious in humans.
The only place a similar virus has been found is in a laboratory.
Quote "it is now for people that argue a natural zoological origin to provide the evidence"
OK, first problem- can you provide some sort of citation.
Second (bigger) problem.
One of the defining factors of covid19 is that it's a lethal contagious virus.
If Covid was in Barcelona in March 2019, how come it wasn't killing people?
-
Quote "it is now for people that argue a natural zoological origin to provide the evidence"
So, I asked google...
and it says
"No results found for "it is now for people that argue a natural zoological origin to provide the evidence"."
-
So a Spainsh study of sewage samples has confirmed that covid19 was in Barcelona in March 2019.
Spain regularly freezes sewage smaples and keeps a record.
And apparently there are 6 inserts in Covid19. 4 of the inserts make the virus more infectious in humans.
The only place a similar virus has been found is in a laboratory.
Quote "it is now for people that argue a natural zoological origin to provide the evidence"
OK, first problem- can you provide some sort of citation.
Second (bigger) problem.
One of the defining factors of covid19 is that it's a lethal contagious virus.
If Covid was in Barcelona in March 2019, how come it wasn't killing people?
Who says it wasn't? Have heard it suggested that the increased death of flu in 2018 may have actually been Corona. Bodies are going to be exumed and checked apparently.
Many people have died from Corona due to bad treatment, like being placed on a ventilator as an example.
Quote "it is now for people that argue a natural zoological origin to provide the evidence"
So, I asked google...
and it says
"No results found for "it is now for people that argue a natural zoological origin to provide the evidence"."
I'm so glad Google knows everything 😊
https://www.minervanett.no/corona/the-most-logical-explanation-is-that-it-comes-from-a-laboratory/361860
“The only place we are aware of where an equivalent virus to that which causes Covid-19 exists, is in a laboratory. So the simplest and most logical explanation is that it comes from a laboratory. Those who claim otherwise, have the burden of proof,” Sørensen says.
-
Who says it wasn't?
The death toll.
In the US at the moment the single biggest cause of death is covid.
That's what happens if you have the virus and no effective countermeasures.
And you are saying that was the case in Spain last March.
Do you really think that people wouldn't notice if more people were dying from some odd respiratory illness tan from anything else?Many people have died from Corona due to bad treatment, like being placed on a ventilator as an example.
Thank you for airing the depths of your medical knowledge.
You still for got to include any evidence.
-
You need to explain why this didn't happen in spain last year.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/the-rapid-increase-of-u-s-coronavirus-deaths-in-one-graphic.html
-
You need to explain why this didn't happen in spain last year.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/the-rapid-increase-of-u-s-coronavirus-deaths-in-one-graphic.html
I dont need to explain anything.
Reality is the current Coronavirus has been arround a lot longer then the official narrivite suggests.
They have only started recording deaths as Corona in this last year.(which could be an explanation) And there have been complaints from some quarters of medicine that they are feeling pressure to list deaths as Corona and so exzarergate the numbers.
Possibly the secound wave is more deathly.... maybe 2020 is the secound wave. Can only speculate.
-
You need to explain why this didn't happen in spain last year.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/the-rapid-increase-of-u-s-coronavirus-deaths-in-one-graphic.html
I dont need to explain anything.
Reality is the current Coronavirus has been arround a lot longer then the official narrivite suggests.
They have only started recording deaths as Corona in this last year.(which could be an explanation) And there have been complaints from some quarters of medicine that they are feeling pressure to list deaths as Corona and so exzarergate the numbers.
Possibly the secound wave is more deathly.... maybe 2020 is the secound wave. Can only speculate.
So, you reckon that the death rate could more than double without anyone noticing.
It didn't matter if the called it "covid" or not; people would have noticed the queue at the crematorium.
-
Reality is the current Coronavirus has been arround a lot longer then the official narrivite suggests.
So far, you have put forward absolutely no evidence for this idea.
-
New York city, northen Italy... if the virus were around last spring we would have seen mass death much sooner. We know that unckecked, cases double in less than a week. Even at at a doubling of just once a week there would be a billion cases in 7 months.
It's possible that what they found in Barcelona was SARS CoV2 minus a significant later mutation - a significant mutation can be as small as you like.
I am baffled by the genetic sequence of the Barcelona find not being published, nor any reason given. It seems the obvious next step.
-
app
And apparently there are 6 inserts in Covid19. 4 of the inserts make the virus more infectious in humans.
OK, first problem- can you provide some sort of citation.
https://www.minervanett.no/corona/the-most-logical-explanation-is-that-it-comes-from-a-laboratory/361860 Don't know anything about Birger Sørensen - so info only, I'm not expressing an opinion.
-
I am baffled by the genetic sequence of the Barcelona find not being published, nor any reason given. It seems the obvious next step.
"The paper is currently being subject to critical review by outside experts in preparation for publication in a scientific journal. Until this process of peer review has been completed, though, the evidence needs to be treated with caution."
from
https://www.independent.co.uk/health_and_wellbeing/coronavirus-here-earlier-march-europe-2019-a9590801.html
-
Don't know anything about Birger Sørensen -
Well in that article, he says re. the virus and Wuhan
"There are very few who still believe that the epidemic started there,".
Well, that's an interesting interesting assertion- because that's where people started dying. I think that most people think the outbreak started there.
Obviously, I haven't asked everyone on the planet, but I think what he has done there is make a false statement.
-
Don't know anything about Birger Sørensen -
Well in that article, he says re. the virus and Wuhan
"There are very few who still believe that the epidemic started there,".
Come on you can do better than that, he said Wuhan Seafod Market not Wuhan
-
I'm sorry I thought you all read the news.
Yes.
We may have read these bits
"The research has been submitted for a peer review."
"There was the potential for a false positive due to the virus’ similarities with other respiratory infections.
“But it’s definitely interesting, it’s suggestive,” Villalbi said."
So we may still be waiting for evidence.
Honestly love watching you nit pick😊
Pointing out that the guy says stuff that's almost certainly not true isn't "nit picking", is it?
So, you have an unpublished report and a man who says things that seem very wrong.
As I said.
So far, you have put forward absolutely no evidence for this idea.
On the other hand, if it was true, we would know about it; as Set Fair points out.
Even at at a doubling of just once a week there would be a billion cases in 7 months.
So, if you think it's true, how did you explain that to yourself?
How come the bodies weren't piling up?
-
Honestly love watching you nit pick😊
Pointing out that the guy says stuff that's almost certainly not true isn't "nit picking", is it?
So, you have an unpublished report and a man who says things that seem very wrong.
As you said yourself
Don't know anything about Birger Sørensen -
Obviously, I haven't asked everyone on the planet, but I think what he has done there is make a false statement.
You don't know, you think maybe, hence you're more accusing him of lying based on a hunch. And accusing him of lying over semantics actually. The majority of people he talks with may well now conclude the same as him.
Rather than go on... you come across as not picking much
I'll yawn on the peer review.
-
The majority of people he talks with may well now conclude the same as him.
If most people don't agree with him, it's not semantics; he's wrong.
And it doesn't matter what his friends say.
Do you not understand that you aren't only failing to understand the science here; you are failing to understand common sense?
I'll yawn on the peer review.
If you are not interested in science, what are you doing here?
Just trolling?
Are you somehow hoping that will distract people from the real hole in your world-view?
How come the bodies weren't piling up?
-
Don't know anything about Birger Sørensen -
Well in that article, he says re. the virus and Wuhan
"There are very few who still believe that the epidemic started there,".
Come on you can do better than that, he said Wuhan Seafod Market not Wuhan
And....?
Do you still think that most people don't think that's where it started?
-
The majority of people he talks with may well now conclude the same as him.
If most people don't agree with him, it's not semantics; he's wrong.
And it doesn't matter what his friends say.
maybe it's just nit picking.
Do you not understand that you aren't only failing to understand the science here; you are failing to understand common sense?
The science of defining 'most people' and it's meaning... I think it's more in the realm of linguistics then science.
I'll yawn on the peer review.
If you are not interested in science, what are you doing here?
Just trolling?
Well it's all relative to who does the review isnt it? If the corporate sponsors want an position or narrative maintained, they pay for it, and scientists will often sadly oblige. The system is broken. I question your faith in a broken system, it's a more scientific approach surely, to be sceptical.
Are you somehow hoping that will distract people from the real hole in your world-view?
Clearly I can't see it... you'll have to help..oh wait... it is related to this question below?
How come the bodies weren't piling up?
Like there is no hole there? There is a straw hole... :)
I actually already answered. 1 we can only speculate. But!
If the virus has been around longer then 2020 could have been the secound wave of the virus in 2020.
And as people love to point out with spainish flu as an example, but also with concern for a second wave of the current Covid19 pandemic, the first wave was no where nead as deadly as the secound.
So there wouldn't need to be, a pile up of bodies(as you put it) for a first wave of covid 19 happening in 2018 or early 2019. Hence no hole at all.
-
If the corporate sponsors want an position or narrative maintained, they pay for it, and scientists will often sadly oblige.
If you were a scientist, you would no that we don't get paid to do peer review.
You also need to explain how a virus knows if this is wave 1 or wave 2 before you can use that as possible reason why the bodies are not piling up.
maybe it's just nit picking.
No.
What do you think the phrase "nit picking" actually means?
-
The science of defining 'most people' and it's meaning... I think it's more in the realm of linguistics then science.
It's in the realm of being able to count.
Are you saying that's beyond you?
-
it's a more scientific approach surely, to be sceptical.
Yes.
But you aren't being.
You are swallowing essentially one man's view without any criticism
-
, what are you doing here?
If the corporate sponsors want an position or narrative maintained, they pay for it, and scientists will often sadly oblige.
If you were a scientist, you would no that we don't get paid to do peer review.
maybe that's how it started
You also need to explain how a virus knows if this is wave 1 or wave 2 before you can use that as possible reason why the bodies are not piling up.
I think actually your gonna have to explain how a virus can know anything.
maybe it's just nit picking.
No.
What do you think the phrase "nit picking" actually means?
Essentially it's looking for any tiny flaw you can, in ordered to rubbish a position or the person making it, while ignoring the actual point of the arguement or position taken.
His position was about covid coming from a lab, which you ignored, and simply jumped on a statement about 'most people' as a lie.
It's nit picking to me.
-
I think actually your gonna have to explain how a virus can know anything.
No, you have missed my point.
That's your problem, not mine.
You are saying that there's a difference between the 1st and 2nd waves.
If the virus can't count, how does it know to be extra virulent the second time?
Essentially it's looking for any tiny flaw
So, pointing out that he can't even get the easy bits right isn't "nit picking" because it's not a tiny flaw, it's a huge hole in his credibility.
(do you remember, that's what we were on about at the time?0
Don't know anything about Birger Sørensen
My point is that I know exactly one thing about him.
He gets the easy stuff wrong.
maybe that's how it started
It's how peer review still goes on, at least when I have done it.
What was your experience - were you ever asked to be a peer?
-
I think actually your gonna have to explain how a virus can know anything.
No, you have missed my point.
That's your problem, not mine.
You are saying that there's a difference between the 1st and 2nd waves.
If the virus can't count, how does it know to be extra virulent the second time?
A more deadly secound wave without a mutation does not need to be more virulent, it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count not the virus being more dangerous a secound time. Although through mutation that can happen.
Essentially it's looking for any tiny flaw
So, pointing out that he can't even get the easy bits right isn't "nit picking" because it's not a tiny flaw, it's a huge hole in his credibility.
(do you remember, that's what we were on about at the time?0
Except that's not a fact but rather your uncharitable interpretation, which I hold as nit picking.
Don't know anything about Birger Sørensen
My point is that I know exactly one thing about him.
He gets the easy stuff wrong.
As above. You Believe. Maybe he can come and defend himself.
maybe that's how it started
It's how peer review still goes on, at least when I have done it.
What was your experience - were you ever asked to be a peer?
No. I wasnt aware peer review was done in a scientist spare time.
-
Except that's not a fact but rather your uncharitable interpretation, which I hold as nit picking.
So, you don't realise that you are misusing the phrase?
Why?
And as people love to point out with spainish flu as an example, but also with concern for a second wave of the current Covid19 pandemic, the first wave was no where nead as deadly as the secound.
OK, in one case there are two factors, a mutation of the virus (probably) and sick soldiers from world war one coming home to homes and hospitals.
Perhaps you didn't realise that we aren't currently in the middle of a major international war.
It's not at all clear that the second wave this time is "real" it's just what happens when people get bored of lockdown.
The flu is just as deadly, but the people aren't bothering to avoid it.
It's stupid but that's humanity for you.
So, you still need an actual explanation of why the disease wasn't killing people in March.
Perhaps you didn't realise that, without a credible explanation for that, your idea is dead in the water.
No. I wasnt aware peer review was done in a scientist spare time.
It's hardly surprising, given how many other things you don't realise.
-
it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count
Got any evidence for that?
-
Except that's not a fact but rather your uncharitable interpretation, which I hold as nit picking.
So, you don't realise that you are misusing the phrase?
Why?
Oh please enlighten me.
And as people love to point out with spainish flu as an example, but also with concern for a second wave of the current Covid19 pandemic, the first wave was no where nead as deadly as the secound.
OK, in one case there are two factors, a mutation of the virus (probably) and sick soldiers from world war one coming home to homes and hospitals.
Perhaps you didn't realise that we aren't currently in the middle of a major international war.
No we are in the middle of a few Afganistan being the longest.
It's not at all clear that the second wave this time is "real"
And who suggested it was? Speculation remember.
But glad that you see if there was a second wave it would be a thing.
it's just what happens when people get bored of lockdown
The flu is just as deadly, but the people aren't bothering to avoid it.
It's stupid but that's humanity for you.
So, you still need an actual explanation of why the disease wasn't killing people in March.
No I dont. If the peer review of the study, finally gets you to except that covid 19 was in Spain in March 2019. Well you'll have just deal with it.
Perhaps you didn't realise that, without a credible explanation for that, your idea is dead in the water.
What idea? Not my idea it's part if a Spanish study.
You're the one demanding answers to why there are no people dying of covid then. But they didn't even start recording deaths as covid until 2020. So there could simply be a case of mis labeling covid19 deaths as something else. Because as far as science was concerned covid19 didnt exist in March of 2019. Wasn't officially discovered for another 8 months.
Obviously after the peer review was excepted, I wonder how much time was used on that? If there is no peer review of those first sighting maybe we should all join David icke and denounce covid as a lie...
[author=Jolly2 link=topic=78973.msg607890#msg607890 date=1594060049]No. I wasnt aware peer review was done in a scientist spare time.
It's hardly surprising, given how many other things you don't realise.
You need to better...
it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count
Got any evidence for that?
That's got to be a joke. You honestly dont know what a hypersensitivity immune response is?
-
Oh please enlighten me.
Because that's not what the phrase means.
But they didn't even start recording deaths as covid until 2020. So there could simply be a case of mis labeling covid19 deaths as something else.
And again...
That's not a sensible idea.
On the other hand, if it was true, we would know about it; as Set Fair points out.
Quote from: set fair on 05/07/2020 18:04:37
Even at at a doubling of just once a week there would be a billion cases in 7 months.
It wouldn't have mattered what label they put on a billion dead people in 7 months.
They would have noticed.
No we are in the middle of a few Afganistan being the longest.
I said major
"As of July 27, 2018, there have been 2,372 U.S. military deaths in the War in Afghanistan."
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan
And who suggested it was?
You.
Specifically you said it was the reason for something (the low death toll)
Things have to be real to be an explanation.
You honestly dont know what a hypersensitivity immune response is?
Yes, I do.
Now answer my actual point, not the straw man
Show some evidence for what you claimed that a hypersensitivity immune response does.
-
Oh please enlighten me.
Because that's not what the phrase means.
Well that's my definition and you qualify. Its publically stated you'll just have to take it.
But they didn't even start recording deaths as covid until 2020. So there could simply be a case of mis labeling covid19 deaths as something else.
And again...
That's not a sensible idea.
Whom suggest it was? Merely a possibility. A speculative possibility.
On the other hand, if it was true, we would know about it; as Set Fair points out.
Quote from: set fair on 05/07/2020 18:04:37
Even at at a doubling of just once a week there would be a billion cases in 7 months.
It wouldn't have mattered what label they put on a billion dead people in 7 months.
They would have noticed.
For a virus you claim is as deadly as the flu- your words. I really have a laugh at this point, which is rediculas.
No we are in the middle of a few Afganistan being the longest.
I said major
"As of July 27, 2018, there have been 2,372 U.S. military deaths in the War in Afghanistan."
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan
Lets argue about the semantics of 'Major'. It is now the longest war in American History.
And who suggested it was?
You.
Specifically you said it was the reason for something (the low death toll)
Things have to be real to be an explanation.
I did no such thing. I speculated, it could be one of a few different explanations for why there were no covid19 deaths seen in March 2019 while the virus could have been present and not identified.
You're the one demanding a death count. There are plenty of reasons as to why covid19 could have been present but not killed people. Ranging from weaker strains to mutations, to a lack of awareness by doctors recording the deaths. We can only speculate currently as to why if the virus was present in March 2019 there wasn't an increase in death count... maybe there was I havent seen the data.
You honestly dont know what a hypersensitivity immune response is?
Yes, I do.
Now answer my actual point, not the straw man
Show some evidence for what you claimed that a hypersensitivity immune response does.
What straw man?
I'll send you a video so you can learn what you already claim you know? Seems redundant waste of time.
-
It wouldn't have mattered what label they put on a billion dead people in 7 months.
They would have noticed.
Somewhat wary of plunging into this argument, but there's a considerable difference between cases and deaths.
On current statistics worldwide, COVID seems to kill about 6% of those it infects. There are however two problems:
1. The infection can be very mild and not reported or diagnosed as COVID
2. Actual cause of death is usually respiratory insufficiency due to the body's response to COVID, so may not be reported as COVID unless there has been a credible positive test and the political will to admit it
So an additional billion cases would be weird but possibly not obviously significant over a period of 7 months - just a bad seasonal flu. But the doubling of weekly death rates would be noted in countries that have strict recording procedures. Indeed the bodies were piling up in the UK and particularly Italy, and will do so in the uncivilised parts of the Americas.
The low fatality rate, slow progression to death, and broad spectrum of mild symptoms, account for the success of this virus in cooperative host species like dumb humans.
-
Well that's my definition and you qualify. Its publically stated you'll just have to take it.
For a start, this is your definition.
Essentially it's looking for any tiny flaw you can, in ordered to rubbish a position or the person making it, while ignoring the actual point of the arguement or position taken.
No, I don't need to take your new "definition". I can still point out that only a fool redefines words in order to try to look like they were right.
Whom suggest it was? Merely a possibility
You did.
I quoted you.
You were putting forward "So there could simply be a case of mis labeling covid19 deaths as something else." as a reason why covid might have gone unnoticed for months.
And, you have tried telling the same fairy story twice.
So, no, it isn't a "possibility", is it?
So, since that one is impossible, if you want to be taken seriously, you need another explanation.
Lets argue about the semantics of 'Major'. It is now the longest war in American History.
It's not a matter of semantics, it's a matter of vast movements of injured people carrying the virus which caused (in large part) the 2nd wave of Spanish flu.
No current war is doing that.
That's a real difference which the grown-ups will understand.
Why are you trying to pretend that it isn't?
I did no such thing. I speculated, it could be one of a few different explanations for why there were no covid19 deaths seen in March 2019 while the virus could have been present and not identified.
It's the only explanation you have put forward, and it doesn't work.
You're the one demanding a death count
No
I'm the one pointing out that you wouldn't need one.
If covid had run through unabated by quarantine measures then...
It didn't matter if the called it "covid" or not; people would have noticed the queue at the crematorium.
There are plenty of reasons as to why covid19 could have been present but not killed people.
No there are not.
Ranging from weaker strains to mutations, to a lack of awareness by doctors recording the deaths.
OK
" weaker strains to mutations"
Those are the same thing.
And I thought I already explained why that idea doesn't work.
It's implausible that the virus underwent the same mutation in China as in Spain and at the same time.
But the virus now in china is the same as the one that's now in Spain.
Then there's the other issue- if it stopped being essentially benign, and started being lethal, is it the same virus?
"lack of awareness by doctors recording the deaths"
You keep restating that tosh.
Why?
You don't need a doctor to see a doubling of the death rate in a country, do you?
So, if covid had hit Spain "early" there would have been a massive death toll. Too big to ignore.
We can only speculate currently as to why if the virus was present in March 2019 there wasn't an increase in death count... maybe there was I havent seen the data.
No, we do not.
We can speculate something sensible instead.
We can speculate that there's a glitch in testing.
What straw man?
The one I explained earlier, remember?
Show some evidence for what you claimed that a hypersensitivity immune response does.
You need to provide evidence for the claim you made.
it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count
Show evidence that, in the case of covid infected patients, it's a hypersensitivity reaction, - specifically one cause by previous exposure- that kills them.
(If it's not caused by previous exposure, it's nothing to do with a 2nd wave)
I'm still wondering, by the way, why do you bother with this childish trolling?
-
So an additional billion cases would be weird but possibly not obviously significant over a period of 7 months
On current statistics worldwide, COVID seems to kill about 6% of those it infects.
With a doubling period of a month (which is "generous") half those cases would happen in the last month.
6% of a billion is 60 million deaths.
I think that the health care system in Spain is sophisticated enough to recognise that something is amiss if about 150% of their population died in 1 month.
Obviously, not all the deaths would be in Spain, but the figures indicate that practically everybody in the country would be exposed, say 1 in 10 is infected (as a guess) , that's 10% of the population.
Of those 6% die.
So 0.3% of the population dies in the "last" month.
That's equivalent to, very roughly, a life span of 333 months.
And the actual life span in Spain must be something like three score years and ten.
That's 840 months.
So the death rate rises by something like 2.5 fold for a month.
Seriously, people would notice the queues at the morgue.
And, of course, with no border controls- because nobody has spotted the disease yet- it would be the same in the surrounding countries.
I think people would have noticed if covid (as we know it) had been in Spain in March last year.
On the other hand, about 15% of "common colds" are caused by coronaviruses.
We probably don't know a much as we should about them.
Maybe one of them looks enough like covid to have tricked the testing.
Pity they closed down the common cold research centre just when molecular biology reached the point where the research could have been useful.
-
If it was intended to be a political or military weapon, it was released a month late...
- The international military games were held in Wuhan 18-27 October, 2019.
- With contestants from the military of over 100 countries
- About 2-4 weeks before the genetics suggest human "patient zero" occurred.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Military_World_Games
-
Obviously, not all the deaths would be in Spain, but the figures indicate that practically everybody in the country would be exposed, say 1 in 10 is infected (as a guess) , that's 10% of the population.
Not sure about Spain, but the initial R factor (actual new infections per carrier) in the UK was about 3 - 4. With no control on movement you can expect something closer to 80% infection within the first few months.
We know the UK weekly death rate doubled in March-April despite some feeble attempts at quarantine. However it is difficult to predict the long-term effect on life expectancy because most of the deaths were of people at the older end of the distribution, and half of them were deliberately infected by discharging infectious hospital patients to care homes.
-
ou can expect something closer to 80% infection within the first few months
It's hard to say.
You can certainly expect essentially 100% exposure, but not everyone exposed becomes infected (and not all infections are symptomatic, and not all symptomatic cases are diagnosed, and not all diagnosed cases are fatal).
I deliberately picked a low figure to avoid being accused of inflating it.
Fundamentally, the problem with the claim that "covid might not be noticed" is that it was noticed- in China, apparently rather quickly (albeit that the State tried to deny it).
-
And now our beloved Boris's acolytes are pretending that asymptomatic infectivity wasn't known about in April. A barefaced lie since the first confirmed asymptomatic carrier in the UK was identified at the beginning of January, even if nobody in government had been following the news from Wuhan.
Anyway, back to the original question: can COVID be used as a weapon? Surprisingly, it is very selective, and mainly infects Republicans and others who believe they are immune because the President says so. Unique. A truly Darwinian weapon that increases the average intelligence of the species.
-
not everyone exposed becomes infected (and not all infections are symptomatic, and not all symptomatic cases are diagnosed, and not all diagnosed cases are fatal)
The apparent lack of symptoms in many cases means that the safest assumption is 100% infectivity above some fairly low threshold of exposure. The history of asymptomatic carriers shows that not all infections are diagnosed, and there is a large number of "probables" who recover without formal medical attention. Of those who are diagnosed in the UK, we know that around 20 - 25% require lifesaving intervention, of whom about 20% die despite the full panoply of life support and ventilation. Worldwide the death rate is somewhat higher as not everyone has access to pressurised oxygen, never mind ventilation.
The fact remains that the only reliable statistic is excess weekly deaths. The expected number of deaths is around 10,000 per week in the UK. It rose to over 20,000 in April 2020.
-
The expected number of deaths is around 10,000 per week in the UK. It rose to over 20,000 in April 2020.
Yes, and that was with at least some intervention. Most people were staying home.
Whereas Jolly is trying to say that the same virus was present in Spain, for months, without any intervention, but didn't produce an increase in the death rate.
So far, he hasn't been able to explain how the virus knew to act differently.
-
Hell of a difference between a virus being present in a country (the only known smallpox virus in Europe is in Birmingham University) and the number of people infected by it (none since the lab accident in 1978).
A lot of people mistakenly think that R is a property of the virus: it's actually a measure of human behavior. You can be dosed up to the eyeballs with Ebola but if you don't sneeze over anyone or make a blood donation your R value is 0. Or you could have a mild dose of the common cold and kiss everyone on the bus, giving you an R value of 50. The number of people infected in any given area depends on the R value of the carriers, which is high in dense populations like London and German meat processing plant (despite the fact that these are supposed to operate at clinical levels of asepsis!) and very low in the Spanish desert.
-
The number of people infected in any given area depends on the R value of the carriers, which is high in dense populations like London and
I was in Barcelona a few years ago. It was roughly as crowded as London full of ****ing tourists (like me :-) ).
If the population density was high enough (and the infected density high enough) that they found the virus in the sewers (just think about the dilution involved there) it's hard to see why nobody noticed.
-
Well that's my definition and you qualify. Its publically stated you'll just have to take it.
For a start, this is your definition.
Essentially it's looking for any tiny flaw you can, in ordered to rubbish a position or the person making it, while ignoring the actual point of the arguement or position taken.
No, I don't need to take your new "definition". I can still point out that only a fool redefines words in order to try to look like they were right.
Whom suggest it was? Merely a possibility
You did.
I quoted you.
You were putting forward "So there could simply be a case of mis labeling covid19 deaths as something else." as a reason why covid might have gone unnoticed for months.
And, you have tried telling the same fairy story twice.
So, no, it isn't a "possibility", is it?
So, since that one is impossible,
Sorry you'll have to justify your claim. According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?
Impossible! Justify the statement.
if you want to be taken seriously, you need another explanation.
Lets argue about the semantics of 'Major'. It is now the longest war in American History.
It's not a matter of semantics, it's a matter of vast movements of injured people carrying the virus which caused (in large part) the 2nd wave of Spanish flu.
No current war is doing that.
That's a real difference which the grown-ups will understand.
I did no such thing. I speculated, it could be one of a few different explanations for why there were no covid19 deaths seen in March 2019 while the virus could have been present and not identified.
It's the only explanation you have put forward, and it doesn't work.
You're the one demanding a death count
No
I'm the one pointing out that you wouldn't need one.
If covid had run through unabated by quarantine measures then...
It didn't matter if the called it "covid" or not; people would have noticed the queue at the crematorium.
Ok justify your assumptions.
There are plenty of reasons as to why covid19 could have been present but not killed people.
No there are not.
Ranging from weaker strains to mutations, to a lack of awareness by doctors recording the deaths.
OK
" weaker strains to mutations"
Those are the same thing.
And I thought I already explained why that idea doesn't work.
It's implausible that the virus underwent the same mutation in China as in Spain and at the same time
Whoever suggested there was a mutation at the same time in Spain and China? Noone did you assert that now .
So that's cute you make up a scenario of simulatious mutation to then debunk it as implausible when noone ever suggest it.
Sure your not a troll?
But the virus now in china is the same as the one that's now in Spain.
But they are not the same there are atleast 5 different strains. And the virus in China and Spain are different strains. As an RNA virus pieces of RNA are added with each new infection actually. So again,
You'll have to explain yourself.
Then there's the other issue- if it stopped being essentially benign, and started being lethal, is it the same virus?
"lack of awareness by doctors recording the deaths"
You keep restating that tosh.
Why?
You don't need a doctor to see a doubling of the death rate in a country, do you?
So, if covid had hit Spain "early" there would have been a massive death toll. Too big to ignore.
We can only speculate currently as to why if the virus was present in March 2019 there wasn't an increase in death count... maybe there was I havent seen the data.
No, we do not.
We can speculate something sensible instead.
We can speculate that there's a glitch in testing.
What straw man?
The one I explained earlier, remember?
Show some evidence for what you claimed that a hypersensitivity immune response does.
You need to provide evidence for the claim you made.
it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count
Show evidence that, in the case of covid infected patients, it's a hypersensitivity reaction, - specifically one cause by previous exposure- that kills them.
(If it's not caused by previous exposure, it's nothing to do with a 2nd wave)
I'm still wondering, by the way, why do you bother with this childish trolling?
Honestly I think the troll is you.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7113449/
Covid19 and hypersensitivity
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1521661620304526
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w
Secondary infections ...
https://advances.massgeneral.org/research-and-innovation/article.aspx?id=1193
And you'll love this researchers link deadliness of 1918 Spanish flu linked to hypersensitivity ... enjoy
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060927201707.htm
-
Do they still use germ warfare to fight wars these days?
I am asking because these outbreaks started after NK started saying they were sending the united states a Christmas present?
So Naturally, I am curious as to weather such viruses are used like they used to be?
Nk has been known to use them in the past? My mind is racing, having a lot of time to think while in isolation?
I am sure, I am not the only person who has seen the time coincidences, between the verbal sparring back and forth, between the countries, and threats on both sides. And then the outbreaks starting.
To return to the actually topic. Seems clearer each day that Covid19 has probably escaped from a laboratory.
Weather it was engineered as a part of gain-of-function research or activily created as a bio weapon by some malthusians. Whether realeased intentionally or by accident; We are left to ponder, but from a laboratory it most likely came.
-
According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?
I never said that.
Ok justify your assumptions.
Covid kills people .
I really don't think I need to justify that but, if you insist, check worldometer or something.
.
Whoever suggested there was a mutation at the same time in Spain and China?
You, implicitly.
You don't seem to understand that.
But they are not the same there are atleast 5 different strains. And the virus in China and Spain are different strains.
The cool thing about molecular biology is that it tells you the evolution of those strains, and roughly when the different strains appeared.
So, all you need to do is show the proof of your original claim.
Honestly I think the troll is you.
I had a look through those pages, and I think you sent me on a wild goose chase as part of your trolling.
I couldn't see anything there that said that hypersensitivity reactions were a cause of a second wave.
They just make a bad disease worse.
Which, in turn, makes your idea that this deadly , contagious virus was in Barcelona, but didn't kill people like it "usually" does even less likely.
If there's anything in those pages which actually explains that a second wave was more lethal because of hypersensitivity effects, could you point it out please?
Or are you going to accept that you made that bit up ? but from a laboratory it most likely came.
So far, you have put forward zero evidence for that.
-
According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?
I never said that.
That exactly what you did. I suggested speculativily that mis-labling of covid19 deaths as something else by doctors, could be an answer as to why if covid19 was present in spain in March 2019 it went unnoticed.
You claimed it impossible. I made a speculative statement about doctor mislabeling deaths. You made a definitive one, claiming it impossible.
Try and change the topic and get things lost in the weeds I'll call you back.
Ok justify your assumptions.
Covid kills people .
I really don't think I need to justify that but, if you insist, check worldometer or something.
.
Whoever suggested there was a mutation at the same time in Spain and China?
You, implicitly.
Which is an absolute falsehood. What happens in your imagination maybe sometimes should stay there.
The suggestion is directly yours and not mine.
You don't seem to understand that.
But they are not the same there are atleast 5 different strains. And the virus in China and Spain are different strains.
The cool thing about molecular biology is that it tells you the evolution of those strains, and roughly when the different strains appeared.
So, all you need to do is show the proof of your original claim.
Here is the problem, I made no claims, I speculated, as to different possibilities to explain a low death count when covid19 could have been in Spain earlier then we previously thought. So there are no claims to facts, I made statements, just speculative statements expressing ideas and explorations of possibilities.
Honestly I think the troll is you.
I had a look through those pages, and I think you sent me on a wild goose chase as part of your trolling.
Speak for yourself.
I couldn't see anything there that said that hypersensitivity reactions were a cause of a second wave.
cause of a second wave? Wow where did that come from? When was it ever suggested that hypersensitivity caused a second wave?
Honestly do people just generally miss these word games you play to try and trap people?
My suggestion was hypersensitivity causing a greater dead count in a second wave(which 2020 could be if covid19 was present in Spain in March 2019 as a first wave.)
Ergo possible answer for lower/mis diagnosed death count in the first wave of 2019 and higher death count in the secound wave of 2020.
It was never suggested that hypersensitivity could be the cause of a second wave.
But ofcourse that's the sad kind of trick you are trying to play. Still makes me smile... better luck with the next one. :)
Cause of a secound wave :)
They just make a bad disease worse.
Which, in turn, makes your idea that this deadly , contagious virus was in Barcelona,
Not my idea mr chemist, it was published as part of a spainsh study. As I said if proven true, you'll just have to deal with that fact, won't you.
but didn't kill people like it "usually" does even less likely.
Well speculation aside if it was in Spain in March 2019 and there is no huge death count, we'll have to find out why. You know some of my suggestions as to possible reasons :)
If there's anything in those pages which actually explains that a second wave was more lethal because of hypersensitivity effects, could you point it out please?
It was directly addressed in the last article. Why don't you read it.
it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count
Got any evidence for that?
deadliness of 1918 Spanish flu linked to hypersensitivity ... enjoy
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060927201707.htm
Or are you going to accept that you made that bit up ?
So Generally people you debate with just get tried of your nonsense?
but from a laboratory it most likely came.
So far, you have put forward zero evidence for that.
As the earlier quote suggested the only place we find a virus similar to covid19 is in a laboratory therefore the simplest answer is that this virus came from a lab. If you want to argue a zoological origin then provide the evidence to support your claim for the burden of proff is on you.
-
That exactly what you did.
No.
It isn't.
I can only suggest that you learn to read.
What I said was impossible is that the doctors would have missed a mass die-off, even if they don't have a diagnosis.
Which is an absolute falsehood. What happens in your imagination maybe sometimes should stay there.
The suggestion is directly yours and not mine.
It seems I need to explain what "implicitly" means.
For your assertions about the virus being in Barcelona in March to be true, and for the outbreaks to suddenly become serious in both China and Spain at much the same time, the virus would have had to suddenly become contagious in both places at the same time.
So, you saying that the virus was there early, and yet only became apparent at the same time implies that the virus gained virulence in both places at the same time.
cause of a second wave? Wow where did that come from? When was it ever suggested that hypersensitivity caused a second wave?
Oops!
Sorry, you didn't say it was the cause of a second wave.
You said it was the cause of an extra deadly second wave.
it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count
And that's what those papers didn't support.
Sorry for the confusion.
Now, can you please actually cite evidence for what you said?
Not my idea mr chemist,
You are the one putting it forward here.
Well speculation aside if it was in Spain in March 2019 and there is no huge death count, we'll have to find out why.
And if it wasn't there we don't need to explain something that's almost impossible; so that's much more likely.
Why are you ignoring the obvious explanation?
You know some of my suggestions as to possible reasons
Yes, and I know that the speculative "reasons" you put forward don't work.
It was directly addressed in the last article. Why don't you read it.
That article does not use the word "second".
If you think it says that the hypersensitivity reactions make a second wave worse than the first, please quote the bit where it says so.
deadliness of 1918 Spanish flu linked to hypersensitivity ... enjoy
Not really in dispute.
But it doesn't say that hypersensitivity makes the second wave worse than the first, which is what you were attempting to explain.
As the earlier quote suggested the only place we find a virus similar to covid19 is in a laboratory
In reality, similar viruses have been studied in bats for over a decade.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851503/
If you want to argue a zoological origin then provide the evidence to support your claim for the burden of proff is on you.
OK
There you are.
And it's happened before with a different virus.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/2/4/96-0408_article
-
That exactly what you did.
No.
It isn't.
I can only suggest that you learn to read.
What I said was impossible is that the doctors would have missed a mass die-off, even if they don't have a diagnosis.
And you can learn to read first.
I never suggested a mass die off. You're the one obsessed with that.
I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.
So again. You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.
It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.
Which is an absolute falsehood. What happens in your imagination maybe sometimes should stay there.
The suggestion is directly yours and not mine.
It seems I need to explain what "implicitly" means.
For your assertions about the virus being in Barcelona in March to be true, and for the outbreaks to suddenly become serious in both China and Spain at much the same time, the virus would have had to suddenly become contagious
I think you'll find it has to be contagious to be virus(atleast has to be transmissable somehow). What are you talking about?! Seriously!
If the secound wave started at the end of 2019 and hypersensitivity was responsible for increased deaths, that could be an answer. The virus does not need to be more deadly for hypersensitivity to effect the mortality.
Again you change my point to rebuff a falsehood. What a joke.
in both places at the same time.
So, you saying that the virus was there early, and yet only became apparent at the same time implies that the virus gained virulence in both places at the same time.
No it doesn't, hypersensitivity is the body over reacting and killing people ergo the virus itself isn't killing anyone the bodies immunse system is responsible for the death.
cause of a second wave? Wow where did that come from? When was it ever suggested that hypersensitivity caused a second wave?
Oops!
Sorry, you didn't say it was the cause of a second wave.
You said it was the cause of an extra deadly second wave.
Not sure I really believe the oppsy seems a bit to common.
it's hypersensitivity reactions that often cause the problems and increased death count
And that's what those papers didn't support.
Sorry for the confusion.
Now, can you please actually cite evidence for what you said?
Evidence of hypersensitivity increasing death count is in the article I posted. Stop wasting my time
Not my idea mr chemist,
You are the one putting it forward here.
Well speculation aside if it was in Spain in March 2019 and there is no huge death count, we'll have to find out why.
And if it wasn't there we don't need to explain something that's almost impossible; so that's much more likely.
Why are you ignoring the obvious explanation?
I'm not. I have from the beginning been exploring possible reasons for a low death count, if the study is true.
Oh they have also now found evidence for corvid 19 in sewage in Brazil from before it was even confirmed in China.
and are currently doing genetic analysis on the virus. I wonder how many more countries will report similar findings.
You know some of my suggestions as to possible reasons
Yes, and I know that the speculative "reasons" you put forward don't work.
You are entitled to your opinion.
It was directly addressed in the last article. Why don't you read it.
That article does not use the word "second".
If you think it says that the hypersensitivity reactions make a second wave worse than the first, please quote the bit where it says so.
deadliness of 1918 Spanish flu linked to hypersensitivity ... enjoy
Not really in dispute.
But it doesn't say that hypersensitivity makes the second wave worse than the first, which is what you were attempting to explain.
A second wave is worse through hypersensitivity because stored antibodies from the intial infection(first wave) are released and attack the host(in the second wave).
But I'm sure you are aware of that and just like wasting peoples time.
As the earlier quote suggested the only place we find a virus similar to covid19 is in a laboratory
In reality, similar viruses have been studied in bats for over a decade.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851503/
Yes studied in laboratories, and often added to, through gain of function research.
still as stated in the article covid19 is not a normal Corona virus infact:-
"Sørensen also highlights other data than those related to the virus’ properties:
“The properties that we now see in the virus, we have yet to discover anywhere in nature."
It has not been found anywhere in nature. Not In bats either mr chemist, so sorry your point is blunt.
If you want to argue a zoological origin then provide the evidence to support your claim for the burden of proff is on you.
OK
There you are.
And it's happened before with a different virus.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/2/4/96-0408_article
Oh dear yes Virsus' cross spieces.
But that's not the issue. Rediculas post that in no way addresses the actual issue.
Both Trump and the head of the CIA have claimed to have seen evidence that covid 19 came from a lab. :)
If Trump said it must be true.
-
I was in Barcelona a few years ago.
You have my sympathy. Though I recall some good food. If the population density was high enough (and the infected density high enough) that they found the virus in the sewers (just think about the dilution involved there) it's hard to see why nobody noticed.
Bullfighting season, perhaps? Loads of death and bullshit, so a bit more of both just looks like a good tourist season. This year the target is Brighton and the Essex Costa Geriatrica.
-
Not sure I really believe the oppsy seems a bit to common.
From a man who can't post anything without making a mistake...
And you can learn to read first.
I never suggested a mass die off. You're the one obsessed with that.
I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.
So again. You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.
It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.
Cut to the chase.
Show where I said what you claim I did.
Evidence of hypersensitivity increasing death count is in the article I posted. Stop wasting my time
But not as a reason why the second wave is more intense; which was the subject under discussion.
You could stop wasting everyone's time by admitting that, while hypersensitivity is bad, it's also bad during the first wave.
So it can't be a reason why the people of Barcelona didn't have a mass die- off.
The virus does not need to be more deadly for hypersensitivity to effect the mortality.
No, but , for that to work, you need a reason that hypersensitivity is more important in the second wave.
So far you have only pretended to offer evidence for that.
In fact, you have not done so.
No it doesn't, hypersensitivity is the body over reacting and killing people ergo the virus itself isn't killing anyone the bodies immunse system is responsible for the death.
And.... once again...
There is no real reason why that would differ between a first and second wave, so there's no reason why it can be an explanation of the lack of an outbreak in Barcelona in March 2019.
I'm not. I have from the beginning been exploring possible reasons for a low death count, if the study is true.
So, you admit you have been ignoring the obvious reason; that the virus wasn't there.
Why are you ignoring the obvious reason?
A second wave is worse through hypersensitivity because stored antibodies from the intial infection(first wave) are released and attack the host(in the second wave).
.
And, again, that's the claim that I asked you to provide evidence for.
Why have you not done so?
Yes studied in laboratories,
No.
Studied in bats.
That's the point.
still as stated in the article covid19 is not a normal Corona virus
Stated in an article that also states something we know isn't true.
It has not been found anywhere in nature.
Yes it was- in a market in China, by some poor soul who became patient zero.
“The properties that we now see in the virus, we have yet to discover anywhere in nature."
Which properties?
It seems to share most of its properties with SARS or MERS.
-
Not sure I really believe the oppsy seems a bit to common.
From a man who can't post anything without making a mistake...
And you can learn to read first.
I never suggested a mass die off. You're the one obsessed with that.
I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.
So again. You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.
It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.
Cut to the chase.
Show where I said what you claim I did.
Evidence of hypersensitivity increasing death count is in the article I posted. Stop wasting my time
But not as a reason why the second wave is more intense; which was the subject under discussion.
You could stop wasting everyone's time by admitting that, while hypersensitivity is bad, it's also bad during the first wave.
So it can't be a reason why the people of Barcelona didn't have a mass die- off.
The virus does not need to be more deadly for hypersensitivity to effect the mortality.
No, but , for that to work, you need a reason that hypersensitivity is more important in the second wave.
So far you have only pretended to offer evidence for that.
In fact, you have not done so.
No it doesn't, hypersensitivity is the body over reacting and killing people ergo the virus itself isn't killing anyone the bodies immunse system is responsible for the death.
And.... once again...
There is no real reason why that would differ between a first and second wave, so there's no reason why it can be an explanation of the lack of an outbreak in Barcelona in March 2019.
I'm not. I have from the beginning been exploring possible reasons for a low death count, if the study is true.
So, you admit you have been ignoring the obvious reason; that the virus wasn't there.
Why are you ignoring the obvious reason?
A second wave is worse through hypersensitivity because stored antibodies from the intial infection(first wave) are released and attack the host(in the second wave).
.
And, again, that's the claim that I asked you to provide evidence for.
Why have you not done so?
Yes studied in laboratories,
No.
Studied in bats.
That's the point.
still as stated in the article covid19 is not a normal Corona virus
Stated in an article that also states something we know isn't true.
It has not been found anywhere in nature.
Yes it was- in a market in China, by some poor soul who became patient zero.
“The properties that we now see in the virus, we have yet to discover anywhere in nature."
Which properties?
It seems to share most of its properties with SARS or MERS.
Read the article those properties he describes.
And I don't see the point in discussing anymore. Enjoy
-
Quote from: Jolly2 on Today at 16:34:40
And you can learn to read first.
I never suggested a mass die off. You're the one obsessed with that.
I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.
So again. You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.
It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.
Cut to the chase.
Show where I said what you claim I did.
-
OK, Lets look at the report of the report
https://www.minervanett.no/corona/the-most-logical-explanation-is-that-it-comes-from-a-laboratory/361860
And here's what it says
" he explains. “It’s also possible for a virus to attain these properties in nature, but it’s not likely. If the mutations had happened in nature, we would have most likely seen that the virus had attracted other properties through mutations, not just properties that help the virus to attach itself to human cells.”"
And the fallacy concerned is the "Texas sharpshooter"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
If the virus hadn't picked up properties that make it really good at infecting people, we wouldn't ever have done any research on it.
-
Quote from: Jolly2 on Today at 16:34:40
A second wave is worse through hypersensitivity because stored antibodies from the intial infection(first wave) are released and attack the host(in the second wave).
.
And, again, that's the claim that I asked you to provide evidence for.
Why have you not done so?
-
Quote from: Jolly2 on Today at 16:34:40
And you can learn to read first.
I never suggested a mass die off. You're the one obsessed with that.
I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.
So again. You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.
It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.
Cut to the chase.
Show where I said what you claim I did.
You are a totally disingenous actor I have little interest in continuing to discuss with.
YoUR WORDs "What I said was impossible is that the doctors would have missed a mass die-off"
I Never claimed a mass die off from the beginning I was giving examples of low to no mass death count.
You claimed my suggestion impossible.
Because doctors would notice a huge death count.
When my idea was always referencing a small or non existent death count in March 2019.
ERGO you made up a claim I Did not make
I never suggested doctors mis labelled 1000s to 10s of thousands of deaths from covid19.
So you precisely changed my idea to then then claim it impossible.
-
ERGO you made up a claim I Did not make
Get a mirror
I never suggested doctors mis labelled 1000s to 10s of thousands of deaths from covid19.
Nobody said you did.
What I said was that, given the fact that the deaths would have happened, it was inevitable that the doctors would have seen that something was happening.
They could not, in March 2019, have diagnosed a disease that wasn't discovered until November 2019.
But they would still have noticed that half the deaths were from a respiratory infection.
I Never claimed a mass die off from the beginning
Nobody said you did.
Though, obviously, an unrestrained lethal infectious virus would lead to one.
But that's not the point.
Here's the relevant text.
Sorry you'll have to justify your claim. According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?
Now, for the second or third time of asking... show us where you think I said that.
-
Quote from: Jolly2 on Today at 16:34:40
And you can learn to read first.
I never suggested a mass die off. You're the one obsessed with that.
I suggest a first wave in 2019 with hardly any deaths going unnoticed because of doctors mis -reporting cause of death. With a increase in death in a secound wave.
So again. You are changing my statements to then rebuff a falsehood and then claim you have disproved them which you havent at all.
It's a very disingenuous way to dedate.
Cut to the chase.
Show where I said what you claim I did.
Changing the terms again. As I said you are disingenuous actor and I have no interest in discussing with you more. I will no longer engage with you. Enjoy
-
Do they still use germ warfare to fight wars these days?
I am asking because these outbreaks started after NK started saying they were sending the united states a Christmas present?
So Naturally, I am curious as to weather such viruses are used like they used to be?
Nk has been known to use them in the past? My mind is racing, having a lot of time to think while in isolation?
I am sure, I am not the only person who has seen the time coincidences, between the verbal sparring back and forth, between the countries, and threats on both sides. And then the outbreaks starting.
Hi Karen to repeat myself again.
It seems clear that, Covid19 has been realised from a lab.
Donald Trump is now even claiming to have seen evidence that it escaped from a lab.
Brazil has now just released a study showing covid19 present in November 2019 5 months earlier then previously thought.
And Spain also had released a study showing Corona virus was in Spain back in March 2019.
Currently Genetic analysis is taking place on the virus' found.
-
Here's the relevant text.
Quote from: Jolly2 on Yesterday at 20:46:34
Sorry you'll have to justify your claim. According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?
Now, for the second or third time of asking... show us where you think I said that.
-
Donald Trump is now even claiming to have seen evidence that it escaped from a lab.
Was that before or after the alien anal probe? Not only any alien anal probe, but the greatest and most beautiful anal probe ever enjoyed by any president. They found his head, minus the tongue, and are now planning to probe Vladimir Putin for the missing bit.
God help America.
-
Donald Trump is now even claiming to have seen evidence that it escaped from a lab.
Was that before or after the alien anal probe?
You have any evidence for alien anal probe of trump?
Not only any alien anal probe, but the greatest and most beautiful anal probe ever enjoyed by any president. They found his head, minus the tongue, and are now planning to probe Vladimir Putin for the missing bit.
God help America.
Is this some new bizarre Russia gate nonsense?
-
Do they still use germ warfare to fight wars these days?
I am asking because these outbreaks started after NK started saying they were sending the united states a Christmas present?
So Naturally, I am curious as to weather such viruses are used like they used to be?
Nk has been known to use them in the past? My mind is racing, having a lot of time to think while in isolation?
I am sure, I am not the only person who has seen the time coincidences, between the verbal sparring back and forth, between the countries, and threats on both sides. And then the outbreaks starting.
Hi Karen to repeat myself again.
It seems clear that, Covid19 has been realised from a lab.
Donald Trump is now even claiming to have seen evidence that it escaped from a lab.
Brazil has now just released a study showing covid19 present in November 2019 5 months earlier then previously thought.
And Spain also had released a study showing Corona virus was in Spain back in March 2019.
Currently Genetic analysis is taking place on the virus' found.
To continue:-
"We are now effectively working on sequencing the whole genome of these samples, so we'll be able to compare the sequencing of the virus found in our samples from late November with that of the virus now actually circulating and infecting people," she said.
"Doing that we could maybe detect mutations that could possibly explain the increase in the number of cases now," she added, stressing that comparing the full genetic sequencing is important to deepen understanding about the virus.
Gislaine Fongaro, a virologist at the university, explained how the research was conducted. She said the samples were collected from raw sewage in the pipes en route to the treatment plant.
"These samples were collected monthly between October 2019 and March 2020. So we take the samples to the laboratory and freeze them. That's why we could go back over them now – they were frozen," she said.
"Results came back negative for SARS-CoV-2 in the samples from October. And then negative again in the early November samples. But then results came back positive for the first time for a sample from November 27. And then all samples tested came back positive until March 2020," she explained.
She said it's possible that if they went further back, they could find more positive results for the novel coronavirus.
"It would be very important if we could review samples dating back to the beginning of the year [of 2019]," she said, adding that she hopes their research will encourage other teams who may have access to older samples to check them, and also encourage researchers to look into other older clinical samples taken from patients, which could also help tell the story of the virus.
"Because if we found this in the sewer, that's because people were already carrying the virus. That means there were already people who were infected but were not diagnosed because we did not know about the virus back then," she noted."
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-07-05/Exclusive-Brazilian-researchers-on-discovery-of-COVID-19-in-November-RSNcP85glO/index.html
-
Donald Trump is now even claiming to have seen evidence that it escaped from a lab.
Was that before or after the alien anal probe?
You have any evidence for alien anal probe of trump?
Something must be operating his mouth, and it ain't human. After all, it was
Not only any alien anal probe, but the greatest and most beautiful anal probe ever enjoyed by any president.
-
So no big deal about the Spanish sewage. The current virus is pretty common in bats and was probably circulating among humans in Wuhan in September so might have appeared pretty well anywhere by November. And so it did.
-
To continue:-
There's no point with continuing until you have tidied up the mess you already made.
So, for the 4th time
Here's the relevant text.
Quote from: Jolly2 on Yesterday at 20:46:34
Sorry you'll have to justify your claim. According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?
Now, for the second or third time of asking... show us where you think I said that.
-
To continue:-
There's no point with continuing until you have tidied up the mess you already made.
So, for the 4th time
Here's the relevant text.
Quote from: Jolly2 on Yesterday at 20:46:34
Sorry you'll have to justify your claim. According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?
Now, for the second or third time of asking... show us where you think I said that.
This is the last time I will engage with you.
There is no mess made by me. You claimed my idea impossible.
By changing it.
I asked the question if you bother to notice.
I asked you to justify your claim of impossibility.
Here Sorry you'll have to justify your claim
so I asked you to justify your claim of impossibility.
And then asked if you were saying doctors cannot give a misdiagnosis for the cause of death.
I asked you if that was the basis of your statement of impossibility.
According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?
THAT IS A QUESTION NOT A STATEMENT!
And another perfect example of you mis-representing me. It's so many times now I just can't be bothered to continue.
Because I didn't conceive it possible(hindsight what a wonderful thing) you would change my idea, the only solution I saw was you were claiming doctors can't give a mis diagnosis, but rather then state that and accepting that you might have another reason for saying it, I asked if that was your actual point.
So again you are changing terms. And effectively being dishonest in my opinion.
I have no interest in discussing with a person that is not capable of addressing the actual arguement and feels the need to change statements to gain a point.
It is a pointless pursuit.
-
You claimed my idea impossible.
By changing it.
I can't change your idea.
That's silly.
Do you mean that I misrepresented your idea?
If I had done that, I would have done the same thing you did in saying "According to you it's impossible that a doctor could mis-diagnosed a death from Covid19?"
I asked you to justify your claim of impossibility.
And I am now asking, once again, for you to explain how you came to the mistaken view that I might have made that claim
(Spoiler alert; I didn't).
-
The comming "sewage gate"
-
Beware of journalese, even if you think Russia Today is a reliable news source. A sewage gate is a real metal device for controlling the flow of waste.
-
Beware of journalese, even if you think Russia Today is a reliable news source. A sewage gate is a real metal device for controlling the flow of waste.
Wake up, every news source has it's bias. They are all repeaters not reporters.
Media is and has always been a tool of power. Should be grateful every bias is getting it's day. The past was a very controlled time.
-
And I am now asking, once again, for you to explain how you came to the mistaken view that I might have made that claim
(Spoiler alert; I didn't).
-
"French Nobel prize-winning scientist has accused biologists of having created SARS-CoV-2 - the virus that causes Covid-19... Luc Montagnier, who won the Nobel Prize in 2008 for his work on HIV...
He said: “We have arrived at the conclusion that this virus was created.” He accused “molecular biologists” of having inserted DNA sequences from HIV into a coronavirus, “probably” as part of their work to find a vaccine against AIDS."
https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Disputed-French-Nobel-winner-Luc-Montagnier-says-Covid-19-was-made-in-a-lab-laboratory
-
And I am now asking, once again, for you to explain how you came to the mistaken view that I might have made that claim
(Spoiler alert; I didn't).
He said: “We have arrived at the conclusion that this virus was created.” He accused “molecular biologists” of having inserted DNA sequences from HIV into a coronavirus, “probably” as part of their work to find a vaccine against AIDS."
He's wrong.
HIV-1 did not contribute to the 2019-nCoV genome
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7033698/
-
And I am now asking, once again, for you to explain how you came to the mistaken view that I might have made that claim
(Spoiler alert; I didn't).
He said: “We have arrived at the conclusion that this virus was created.” He accused “molecular biologists” of having inserted DNA sequences from HIV into a coronavirus, “probably” as part of their work to find a vaccine against AIDS."
He's wrong.
HIV-1 did not contribute to the 2019-nCoV genome
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7033698/
Fascinating,
Could you explain why if there is no HIV connection to covid why then vaccine trails are being stopped because of HIV test results?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-10/uq-csl-coronavirus-vaccine-trial-to-be-abandoned/12973656
Seems odd that a vaccine for a virus that has no connection to HIV suddenly appears to cause a positive test result for people vaccinated.
-
Could you explain why if there is no HIV connection to covid why then vaccine trails are being stopped because of HIV test results?
Presumably because there's a link between the vaccine and HIV.
Do you understand the difference?
The article you linked to, links, in turn to this
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-11/how-the-uq-covid-19-vaccine-induces-false-positive-hiv-results/12975048
which explains it.
-
No big deal. COVID-19 has probably been endemic in bats for a thousand years or more. Bats travel, people travel, 80% of carriers don't get very sick, almost everyone eventually generates antibodies, so there may well be odd pockets of virus around the world that never got beyond a few healthy survivors, but once it has infected a critical mass in one place, it can (indeed has) spread and multiply by human contact.
-
No big deal. COVID-19 has probably been endemic in bats for a thousand years or more. Bats travel, people travel, 80% of carriers don't get very sick, almost everyone eventually generates antibodies, so there may well be odd pockets of virus around the world that never got beyond a few healthy survivors, but once it has infected a critical mass in one place, it can (indeed has) spread and multiply by human contact.
Do you have an explanation of how the polybasic furin cleavage site PRRA, came to be in SARS-Cov2?
Apparently the RmYN02 sequence has no basic amino acids.
-
Do you have an explanation of how the polybasic furin cleavage site PRRA, came to be in SARS-Cov2?
Evolution.
-
Apparently the RmYN02 sequence has no basic amino acids.
Chuffing Nora.
-
Apparently the RmYN02 sequence has no basic amino acids.
So?
Just checking; what do you think "Basic" means in this context?
-
Could you explain why if there is no HIV connection to covid why then vaccine trails are being stopped because of HIV test results?
Presumably because there's a link between the vaccine and HIV.
Do you understand the difference?
The article you linked to, links, in turn to this
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-11/how-the-uq-covid-19-vaccine-induces-false-positive-hiv-results/12975048
which explains it.
About clamps:-
One of the most successful ones included a fragment of a protein that is found in HIV. And that's what was used in the UQ vaccine
Still ask why a clamp from HIV was the most successful for SARS cov2?
-
Apparently the RmYN02 sequence has no basic amino acids.
So?
Just checking; what do you think "Basic" means in this context?
Non acidic, arginine, lysine and histidine.
-
Still ask why a clamp from HIV was the most successful for SARS cov2?
Probably the same reason that HIV "uses" it.
It's good at the job of stabilising proteins.
-
Apparently the RmYN02 sequence has no basic amino acids.
So?
Just checking; what do you think "Basic" means in this context?
Non acidic, arginine, lysine and histidine.
Close: not acid, and not neutral.
Now, could you answer my other question please?
So?
-
Apparently the RmYN02 sequence has no basic amino acids.
Chuffing Nora.
What do you think, smoking gun, for a lab created virus?
-
What do you think, smoking gun, for a lab created virus?
Nope.
-
What do you think, smoking gun, for a lab created virus?
Nope.
What would be?
-
What would be?
Some documentation from the lab that did it would be nice.
-
What would be?
Some documentation from the lab that did it would be nice.
Considering that any scientist responsible is probably destroying the evidence that's unlikely
-
Considering that any scientist responsible is probably destroying the evidence that's unlikely
Then why should we conclude that this virus was made in a lab?
-
What do you think, smoking gun, for a lab created virus?
Nope.
What would be?
Something that would happen in a lab but couldn't happen in nature.
But, while we are getting better at DNA manipulation, nature is still better at it than us.
So, at the moment, there couldn't be evidence.
There's nothing we do that nature couldn't. OK, if you found someone's name encoded into the DNA, that would be a give-away, but that's not what anyone has found.
So what's left as "evidence" is stuff like a lab report- which as you say is going to be hard to find.
So the only thing left as a reason for us to think that covid was created in a lab would be if there was any reason to think that a lab would want to create covid.
Well... why would anyone bother?
It's a rubbish biological warfare agent.
Why else would anyone create a fairly bad, but not super-bad virus?
It can't be "because they want to make money from the vaccine" either.
If that was the reason there would be one company- the one who created the virus- who had a vaccine ready to roll much faster than the others.
But we have at least 3 different vaccines all coming on stream at the same time from different companies.
And it's buggered up everyone's economy, so that can't be the reason.
So, why would anyone have made covid?
-
Or a computer virus?
Bored teenager turned into bored chemist.
-
What do you think, smoking gun, for a lab created virus?
Nope.
What would be?
Something that would happen in a lab but couldn't happen in nature.
But, while we are getting better at DNA manipulation, nature is still better at it than us.
So, at the moment, there couldn't be evidence.
There's nothing we do that nature couldn't. OK, if you found someone's name encoded into the DNA, that would be a give-away, but that's not what anyone has found.
So what's left as "evidence" is stuff like a lab report- which as you say is going to be hard to find.
So the only thing left as a reason for us to think that covid was created in a lab would be if there was any reason to think that a lab would want to create covid.
Well... why would anyone bother?
It's a rubbish biological warfare agent.
Why else would anyone create a fairly bad, but not super-bad virus?
It can't be "because they want to make money from the vaccine" either.
If that was the reason there would be one company- the one who created the virus- who had a vaccine ready to roll much faster than the others.
But we have at least 3 different vaccines all coming on stream at the same time from different companies.
And it's buggered up everyone's economy, so that can't be the reason.
So, why would anyone have made covid?
Unfortunately the only people that can answer the question why was the virus made and released are the people that did it. Only they would actually know the real reason.
You are correct it is a bad virus in some senses, but it is also highly contagious, possibly spreads Asymptomatically, attacks the lungs primarily and organs also leaving long term damage, which would probably push most to stop smoking.
But we are left to speculate why, if it is lab created only those that made and released it can know the actual motivation for doing so.
Some speculate, there is a link to Build back better, that the Corona virus has been released to firstly destroy economies, to then rebuild them in a more environmentally friendly way, ofcourse the suggestion that the people responsible for the environmental situation, that got rich destroying the planet could possibly be capable of repairing it is kinda laughable, they remain incharge currently and are driving these efforts.
All we see currently is the rich getting even richer and the gaps of wealth inequality becoming wider and deeper. So I suppose some might suggest the 1% released covid to increase their wealth and power, either way it certianly is a result currently.
.
Also looks like next year could see the starvation of millions across the 3rd world as a result of the lock downs. Malthusians will rejoice I'm sure.
There is also speculation about digital currency being introduced as cash can spread covid, digital currency is a well known long desired dream of the banking cartels. So there is a possibility.
And ofcourse documents from years ago show a desire from some quarters to create health passports. Where to travel you'll have to show you have all the needed vaccines.
Also heard speculation that the covid vaccine could relate to the roll out of 5G, either that the vaccine would offer protection from the 5G networks or allow some form of tracking by the networks.
Still again the push for 5G, is utterly unenvironmental, simply the amount of rare earths needed to make all devices smarts and all cars self driving and electric beggars belief, so as I suggested before the idea that the people who got rich destroying the planet could improve the situation is a joke. And 5G is anything but environmentally sound, you literally need to cut down trees to allow the signal to transmit correctly.
Make a crisis, sell the solution.
Might be as simple, as the solutions being called for, ARE the reasons the virus was made and released.
But as I said only the people that made and released this virus can actually answer the question why.
Thatcher gave power to the market and anyone ANYONE could end up in change as a result of that, maybe Blowfelt finally arrived at the top of 'Black water' inc, and said "I really want smoking gone, I'm tired if these people interfering with the negative liberty of others I'm gonna make a virus... HA HA"
HA...
Or maybe he said "Let's ruin everyone's life and take over the world "
Who knows? If Blowfelt did it, only he can say why...
--------
Will add there needs to be an investigation into the sourse of this virus, there should be tighter controls placed on gain of function research, and biological weapons research. Fort Detrick was closed by the CDC precisely because they had allowed things to escape due to bad handling of materials. And we have seen many releases over years from different labs.
-
Also heard speculation hogwash that the covid vaccine could relate to the roll out of 5G
FTFY
Do you not understand that Occam's razor says that the obvious explanation is that it's just another zoonotic getting lucky and going round the world?
There's no reason to suppose that anyone made this virus.
So why would you assume stuff like this
he only people that can answer the question why was the virus made and released are the people that did it.
All we see currently is the rich getting even richer and the gaps of wealth inequality becoming wider and deeper.
That's all we ever see.
No link to covid.
-
Also heard speculation hogwash that the covid vaccine could relate to the roll out of 5G
FTFY
Do you not understand that Occam's razor says that the obvious explanation is that it's just another zoonotic getting lucky and going round the world?
There's no reason to suppose that anyone made this virus.
So why would you assume stuff like this
https://www.minervanett.no/corona/the-most-logical-explanation-is-that-it-comes-from-a-laboratory/361860
To site It again. "We have never seen a Corona virus with these properties anywhere in nature, therefore the most logical explanation is that this virus has come from a lab, anyone seeking to claim zoological origin now has the burden of proof"
virologist Birger Sørensen
We have seen these kinds of Corona virus' in labs it is known that Fort Detrick and Wuhan both worked on Corna virus'
https://www.vox.com/2020/5/1/21243148/why-some-labs-work-on-making-viruses-deadlier-and-why-they-should-stop
Earlier this week, Newsweek and the Washington Post reported that the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a lab near the site of the first coronavirus cases in the world, had been studying bat coronaviruses
There is currently no smoking gun, but the majority of evidence lines up with Covid19 being lab created
Christopher Martenson , PhD , is an American scientist by training, Within his scientific career he has carried out research in the field of biochemistry , neurotoxicology , applied pharmacology and in vitro techniques .
They are both qualified to comment, Mr chemist,
I'm suprised to see so many scientists not simply empirical move with the evidence, and assume zoological origin.
So I dont assume anything, it appears to me your the one assuming.
-
"We have never seen a Corona virus with these properties anywhere in nature, therefore the most logical explanation is that ...
... we didn't look in the right place.
There is currently no smoking gun, but the majority of evidence lines up with Covid19 being lab created
And, as I have pointed out, it also lines up with it being natural because, as I said, there's nothing much we can do in the lab which nature couldn't.
They are both qualified to comment,
So am I, and you should know better than to try and push an argument from authority on this site.
It just gets you laughed at.
simply empirical move with the evidence
And this is the evidence.
There is currently no smoking gun
And that's why we are not rejecting the null hypothesis
It's because we are scientists, not newspaper headline writers.
If you want me to believe an extraordinary claim, you need to provide extraordinary evidence.
The best you have so far is "we can't prove it's natural".
Incidentally, why does it matter?
If some twit in a lab flushed it without autoclaving it and it was picked up by a bat, what actual difference would that make?
-
Also heard speculation that the covid vaccine could relate to the roll out of 5G, either that the vaccine would offer protection from the 5G networks or allow some form of tracking by the networks.
You've got to be kidding...
-
"We have never seen a Corona virus with these properties anywhere in nature, therefore the most logical explanation is that ...
... we didn't look in the right place.
There is currently no smoking gun, but the majority of evidence lines up with Covid19 being lab created
And, as I have pointed out, it also lines up with it being natural because, as I said, there's nothing much we can do in the lab which nature couldn't.
They are both qualified to comment,
So am I, and you should know better than to try and push an argument from authority on this site.
It just gets you laughed at.
simply empirical move with the evidence
And this is the evidence.
There is currently no smoking gun
And that's why we are not rejecting the null hypothesis
It's because we are scientists, not newspaper headline writers.
If you want me to believe an extraordinary claim, you need to provide extraordinary evidence.
Knowing as we do that bio weapons laboratories are working on Corona virus'. How is it extraordinary to claim one might have escaped? Or been released?
The best you have so far is "we can't prove it's natural".
Incidentally, why does it matter?
If some twit in a lab flushed it without autoclaving it and it was picked up by a bat, what actual difference would that make?
It makes a huge difference, a naturally occurring virus compared to one released intentionally. As those who released it would have an agenda by doing so.
-
Also heard speculation that the covid vaccine could relate to the roll out of 5G, either that the vaccine would offer protection from the 5G networks or allow some form of tracking by the networks.
You've got to be kidding...
No there are all kinds of ideas out there, nano bots that can be use to track people, metals that will either protect or increase the damage from 5G waves.... on and on.
-
No there are all kinds of ideas out there
Don't bring them here.
This is a science site.
-
It makes a huge difference, a naturally occurring virus compared to one released intentionally.
That's not what I said.
If some twit in a lab flushed it without autoclaving it and it was picked up by a bat,
-
You have to accept as fact that a lot of people are comparing COVID with Spanish flu. And for very good reasons.
SF began in the USA but was blamed on Spain by agents of the Deep State, housed in Area 51, as part of the worldwide conspiracy to flood the world with 45 MHz television signals. The UK was divided into two groups with H or X aerials depending on whether the household was under continuous surveillance by MI5 or CIA. 45MHz is the fundamental frequency of the left brain.
February 26 1953– Fulton Sheen, on his program Life Is Worth Living, reads Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, with the names of high-ranking Soviet officials replacing the key characters. At the end of the reading, Sheen intoned that "Stalin must one day meet his judgment". Stalin died one week later.
The switch to satellite monitoring allowed the covert world to monitor individuals at high resolution unless they were wearing aluminum headgear which protects the chakras from emitting 4.5 GHz during the "advertising breaks" which contain subliminal messages to vote for Corbyn and Trump. These messages are more easily absorbed in the brain has been primed with HIV or herpes molecules - two major epidemics of the 1990s that we don't hear about any more.
COVID-19 resonates at 700 MHz and is used to sensitise the nervous system to receive commands from digital TV.
19/11/2020 · European regulators have identified the 3.4-3.8GHz band and plan to harmonise it to make it suitable for 5G. It will be the main frequency band for the launch of 5G.
In other words, they have released COVID-19 (note the date) in order to track your movements. The so-called "lockdowns" have nothing to do with public health but are released in specific areas from time to time to enable the monitoring network to be calibrated. The virus is wholly innocuous but a few people have to be killed from time to time to test the calibration, so they are infected with "co-morbidities" depending on their age and race.
It's obvious.
-
Don't forget the masks.
They are upgrading the face recognition system to deal with people obscuring their faces. and have to test it.
-
No there are all kinds of ideas out there, nano bots that can be use to track people, metals that will either protect or increase the damage from 5G waves.... on and on.
This site should not be used to disseminate conspiracy theories and other unsubstantiated rumours, particularly in the area of Covid where there is already too much false news.
-
No there are all kinds of ideas out there, nano bots that can be use to track people, metals that will either protect or increase the damage from 5G waves.... on and on.
When I said, "You've got to be kidding..." I was talking about the fact that you thought it was worth giving that idea more than a second of consideration.
-
Do you have an explanation of how the polybasic furin cleavage site PRRA, came to be in SARS-Cov2?
Apparently the RmYN02 sequence has no basic amino acids.
https://www.wionews.com/opinions-blogs/was-the-mers-virus-a-model-for-the-creation-of-covid-19-335487
-
Do you have an explanation of how the polybasic furin cleavage site PRRA, came to be in SARS-Cov2?
Apparently the RmYN02 sequence has no basic amino acids.
https://www.wionews.com/opinions-blogs/was-the-mers-virus-a-model-for-the-creation-of-covid-19-335487
Thanks for the link
"There is now a preponderance of evidence that the COVID-19 virus was the product of laboratory experimentation rather than a natural infectious "jump" from bats to humans.
China still has a lot of explaining to do"
Still the Author is American, and is missing that it could just have easily been an escape from Fort Detrick 4 months prior to Covid being found in Wuhan.
-
Do you have an explanation of how the polybasic furin cleavage site PRRA, came to be in SARS-Cov2?
Apparently the RmYN02 sequence has no basic amino acids.
https://www.wionews.com/opinions-blogs/was-the-mers-virus-a-model-for-the-creation-of-covid-19-335487
This is a good article and analysis that suggests the virus was manufactured. I am curious why so many continue to carry the water for China?
I do not think this was designed to be a weapon. The majority of the victims are not soldier material due to advanced age and medical conditions not common to robust soldier types. If it was used for a weapon the soldiers would remain and he civilians would be toast. This is not good warfare.
It makes more sense that this was designed for social engineering. Killing the old and sickest, is only a few steps away abortion. Many have been conditioned to accept that.
I am getting a warning message that this web page is using significant energy and is slowing my MAC. There are not many active adds to cause this. Does anyone know what is causing this? I shut off the warning.
If I recall, very early in the pandemic, at least one scientist from China was disappeared. That got the energy light warning to kick back on. Maybe I should stop while I am ahead.
-
https://www.virology.ws/2020/05/14/sars-cov-2-furin-cleavage-site-revisited/
An interesting question is the origin of the furin cleavage site it SARS-CoV-2. Its closest relative, the bat isolate RaTG13, does not have this site. Nor do any of the other bat SARS-like CoVs or the pangolin CoVs that have been isolated. However recently a newly isolated bat SARS-like CoV, RmYN02, was shown to contain a poly basic amino acid insertion in the spike glycoprotein. This observation supports the hypothesis that the furin cleavage site in SARS-CoV-2 arose by recombination among bat viruses in nature.
-
https://www.virology.ws/2020/05/14/sars-cov-2-furin-cleavage-site-revisited/
An interesting question is the origin of the furin cleavage site it SARS-CoV-2. Its closest relative, the bat isolate RaTG13, does not have this site. Nor do any of the other bat SARS-like CoVs or the pangolin CoVs that have been isolated. However recently a newly isolated bat SARS-like CoV, RmYN02, was shown to contain a poly basic amino acid insertion in the spike glycoprotein. This observation supports the hypothesis that the furin cleavage site in SARS-CoV-2 arose by recombination among bat viruses in nature.
Thanks, I was trying to find this. I think "supports" is a bit strong. I don't think anyone knows enough to weigh such evidence. Virologiy has made great strides in just a century but there is a vast amount yet to be uncovered
-
Thanks, I was trying to find this. I think "supports" is a bit strong. I don't think anyone knows enough to weigh such evidence. Virologiy has made great strides in just a century but there is a vast amount yet to be uncovered
Perhaps so, but at least it shows a plausible natural mechanism.
Related to COVID's origin: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w
9 February — Nimble coronaviruses could leap straight from bats to humans
Some coronaviruses found in bats could jump directly to people without the need for further evolution in an intermediate animal host.
Victor Garcia at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and his colleagues implanted mice with human lung tissue and infected the tissue with various coronaviruses, including SARS-CoV-2 and two closely related coronaviruses isolated from bats. All of the viruses could efficiently multiply in the lung tissue (A. Wahl et al. Nature https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-021-03312-w; 2021). The findings suggest that coronaviruses circulating in bats could directly infect people, and have the potential to cause the next pandemic.
-
smoking gun, for a lab created virus?
if you found someone's name encoded into the DNA, that would be a give-away
There are a very large number of ways you could encode (=decode) someone's name in DNA (or RNA, for SASR-COV2).
- A simple one might be 8-bit ASCII characters, with 4 RNA bases representing 1 character
- If someone's name has 10 letters, that would be a string of 40 RNA bases.
- There are something like 10 million ways you could map 4 RNA bases into an 8-bit ASCII character (and far more if you mapped 16 RNA bases into 2 ASCII characters)
- SARS-COV2, with around 30,000 RNA bases, has around 30,000 possible alignments (x2, because you can read it in the opposite direction)
I reckon that if you took the SARS-COV2 genome, almost any translation from RNA bases to ASCII characters would yield a number of text strings that looked like human names (from some country in the world!).
It's just basic numerology!
-
I think "supports" is a bit strong.
Supports doesn’t mean proves. If there are a number of conflicting hypotheses then each will have its supporting evidence.
I don't think anyone knows enough to weigh such evidence.
Agreed, and this is particularly true as far as this forum goes because we are unlikely to see sufficient detail.
-
Do you have an explanation of how the polybasic furin cleavage site PRRA, came to be in SARS-Cov2?
Apparently the RmYN02 sequence has no basic amino acids.
https://www.wionews.com/opinions-blogs/was-the-mers-virus-a-model-for-the-creation-of-covid-19-335487
In summary, retired US army colonel says "China is bad".
That article is typical of many . It says
"So, the question remains, if no yet identified close relative of COVID-19 has a similar furin polybasic cleavage site, from where did such a unique structural feature with amino acids in unusual positions arise?"
And then leaps off into a conspiracy theory rather than science.
The science would sat "well- so what? We haven't studied all the bat viruses".
It's probably in a virus we haven't looked at yet.
It certainly isn't the "smoking gun" which the page presents it as being.
Whar's really disappointing is watching people on a science web page not spotting shoddy journalism.
-
I am sure that lots of entities, be they individuals, small groups, mega cults, . . . have been inspired by the devastation of covid-19 that biological methods of attack can be very cheap, easy to make, devastating, and difficult to trace who did it.
The state of play now is: a killer virus would be of use to China but an own goal for the West or Russia to deploy. I'm not pointing the finger at China, just saying.
-
Another option in terms of the Corona Virus, beyond warfare or social engineering, is to use it to help overthrow a government. In war, it is one side against another, with civilians part of the home team. With a coup, your target is more at the top of the food chain.There is limited engagement, while trying to leave the civilization population, in check, since you will need slaves later, if you can take over. A deadly virus can be used to induce fear and help pit the people against their leader. The propaganda machine of fake news played the blame game for each death. It is hard to find the running totals now. If that media policy did not change, I would not suspect this.
The Corona Virus did serve a changing of power purpose, intentionally or not, since it allowed last minute changes to formerly strict American election laws, that allowed a long shot candidate to win, who had ties to the country of the virus origin; China, There were winners in this strategy in terms of the final money and power counts. A new team took over, with better ties to the country of the virus origin. Is this coincidence, act of God,or by design?
Anther thing that makes me think this way, is the policy in the USA, after you get any of the three effective Corona vaccines. You still need to hide behind a mask. This is not the policy after the flu shot. It is not the policy after AIDS vaccines or pills. The cure usually allows you to get back to normal, The corona solution requires you get back to the continued abnormal. This is suspect. It is like having hip or knee replacement surgery and then being told you will need to use crutches. What was the point of the surgery? It appears the coup still needs fear to perpetuate, since their hold on power is tentative. The changes being made do not reflect the majority view. My guess is that it will be harder to cheat in the next midterms elections, without fear in place, since this was and still is needed to justify a looser voting standard subject to irregularities with plausible denial.
This overlay smothering reaction to the vaccine, i.e., act like you did not get the vaccine, may also be due to projected fear that can arise due to paranoia. Those who run a coup will fear a coup since the word will get out; eye for an eye. This all may be a coincidence, and may simply be due to the Democrat party motto of never letting a good tragedy go to waste. Corona may have been a "devil send", in terms increasing government power and lowering individual rights. The Democrats do not want this to end. This was the dream for 100 years. The vaccine has to be sold as helpful, but not enough to suspend the fear and their control.
If you look at the results of the virus, the prime targets of the virus followed patterns. These patterns were seen as early as the first month; old age, race, obesity, respiratory problems, diabetes, etc. Yet the response by the bureaucratic policy makers was like these trends never existed, due to the one size fits all approach they took. This is also suspect, but is expected of bureaucrats, who think in terms of program growth and 10 year plans. I am glad Trump did not fully go this way when things were at the worse. His pushing the vaccine in record time much still be a thorn in the foot. Now that things are getting brighter, why still sell the doom and gloom?
To me the entire pandemic response loosely reminded me of a bureaucratic national response to an allergy to milk; lactose intolerance. There are certain people who are at risk, The symptoms for some are minor; gas, and to others the affect can be fatal. Instead of focusing on the vulnerable; lactose intolerant, to protect them, we panic everyone when milk is delivered, as though allergies jump into and out of other time and space dimensions. We all must panic to the first sign of milk, even if you are not allergic. If you fail to comply with the fear, you are a criminal. This tells me incompetence. Now even with the vaccine, the original one size is still supposed to fit all into their 10 year expansion plan
This could all be due to the state of the art of medicine and biology still being backwoods. It is still based on casino science; throw dice and pull levers on slot machines. The state of the art fails to include the impact of water to the degree it represents, so life can become more rational. The casino approach makes the virus appear more magical than it is. The witch doctors in government do not wish to anger the spirits of the virus. Their statistical oracles tell them that the herd must obey with fear, or else the wrath of the virus will be unleashed.
To summarize, a virus could be used to get this ball rolling, so a power structure can be changed. However, in the case of the corona virus there is a continued impact, that the new power mongers have to deal with. This can backfire on them if lingering affects last too long. Virus may not be that useful in the future, since this pilot test was partially successful up front, but it has a lingering impact that may reverse the fortunes of the new leaders, leading to paranoia that shoots them in their own foot. This has to end on time, to be fully successful for coups.
-
A new team took over, with better ties to the country of the virus origin.
In the real wold, Trump had close ties with China.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/special/trumpchina/index.htm
Biden didn't.
It is hard to find the running totals now.
In the real world, it is easy.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
it allowed last minute changes to formerly strict American election laws, that allowed a long shot candidate to win,
In the real world, the "last minute changes" simply allowed people to vote; it didn't change who anyone voted for.
In the real world, Biden was not a "long shot" candidate; he was ahead in all the polls.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-53657174
His pushing the vaccine in record time
In the real world, he opposed the vaccine.
He supported nonsense like bleach and hydroxychloroquine instead.
So, since,as usual, Puppypower's views are at odds with the real world, it's probably not worth worrying about his ideas regarding covid.
I wonder why PP keeps posting obvious nonsense.
-
I am sure that lots of entities, be they individuals, small groups, mega cults, . . . have been inspired by the devastation of covid-19 that biological methods of attack can be very cheap, easy to make, devastating, and difficult to trace who did it.
The state of play now is: a killer virus would be of use to China but an own goal for the West or Russia to deploy. I'm not pointing the finger at China, just saying.
Dont agree, all the houses that are going to be fore closed on, will return to the banks, all the business' that are not open are increasing the profits of companies like Amazon, the 1% in the west have massively increased their wealth thanks to covid19. There is also the Great reset brigade that are saying that the pandemic is an opportunity to change the way society works inorder to reduce pollution, over population and make a different system.
If the virus was released intentionally there is certianly evidence that the elites in the west have completely benefitted from it. Just saying.
-
If the virus was released intentionally there is certianly evidence that the elites in the west have completely benefitted from it.
The elite would also have benefitted if covid had not happened.
That tells you a lot about the system, and nothing about covid.
-
If the virus was released intentionally there is certianly evidence that the elites in the west have completely benefitted from it. Just saying.
As @Bored chemist says, many will have benefited, but also many have not or have lost out, for example the hospitality industry.
I’m sure that somewhere there is a group of white supremecist, pension-fund managers who are looking at the death stats and rubbing their hands with glee. However, any suggestion that they have been instrumental in developing or releasing the virus is total conjecture and unscientific. And adding ‘just saying’ on the end of such statements changes nothing.
This is a science site, not a conspiracy discussion site and we are taking a firmer line on limiting such speculation. Please take heed as there will be no second warnings. Just saying.