[alancalverd (OP)]

You could get to the edge of the US, but you couldn't get any further.

Not a big deal, as far as air travel is concerned. The premium long-haul market is between Europe and the Eastern seaboard. Some 80% of the US population live within a hundred miles of the coast. NYC-LAX travellers might benefit from quicker services but it's  very doubtful that the FAA would grant profitable internal routes to European airlines, and Boeing (who actually control the FAA) was trying to develop their own SST at the same time.

[alancalverd (OP)]

So the issue is not whether it's a good idea or not, but how much it costs.

No. If it were justifiable as a state-owned public service, it would have been promoted as such. If it is going to run at a profit for private companies, there should be no public investment in it. Neither criterion has been met, so on current evidence, it is not a good idea.

Now, does anyone know why it's so insanely expensive?
HS1 cost  £5.8 bn and is 67 miles in 2007 (about £8 bn in today's money).
HS2 is expected to cost about £100 bn and is 140 miles or so.
Twice as long, but 12 times the price.
To me that looks like evidence of criminal activity.

Absolutely. And there's plenty more devil in the detail, I'm told. But the criminals are all Party donors, so that's OK.
 

[alancalverd (OP)]

Today's news is relevant and revealing.

In January the government offered Flybe a repayable commercial loan of £100,000,000 (enough to build a bit less than 150 meters of HS2) to cover temporary difficulties. The offer was subsequently withdrawn, Flybe is bankrupt, and a highly efficient network linking cities from the Channel Isles to  Orkney and from Norwich to Belfast, has collapsed with the loss of 2000 jobs and acute hospital access from island communities.

Radio phone-ins today varied from an ex-Flybe pilot explaining that it had nothing to do with coronavirus* and everything to do with systemic managerial incompetence, to ecofascists extolling the virtues of rail travel, presumably  between  Jersey and Southampton. Channel Islanders  pointed out that the 7 hour boat trip to the nearest radiotherapy unit didn't actually run if the wind was blowing or the sea was wet. The manager of Newquay airport reminded everyone west of Exeter (as if they didn't remember) that the railway line gets washed away every few years. Government spokesmen said Flybe tickets would be honoured by bus companies, including, presumably, the regular service from the Isle of Man to Manchester.

Some folk suggested that the air fare of £50 from Southampton to Edinburgh  couldn't possibly make a profit when the train fare is £180. But (a) £13 of the air fare is tax (there is no rail passenger duty) (b) the railway companies are subsidised and (c) Flybe and its predecessors had been operating at break-even or profit for years.

To nobody's great surprise, the sharks moved in within hours. Loganair, for instance, suddenly showed a philanthropic interest in running a whole swathe of Flybe's dreadful lossmaking routes in these plague-ridden times.

There is a stench of corruption about this. And I need to be in Guernsey next week.....

*Come off it, guys. Holiday flights will have been booked and paid for weeks ago. Short-haul business and emergency travellers aren't going to be put off by the negligible chance of catching a bug en route. Fact is that in winter time and outside school holidays, there is less demand for "elective" aviation - flight "consolidation" is quite normal. And none of those regular passengers who were caught on the ground last night said that the plane was less full than usual.

[Petrochemicals]

Quote from: alancalverd on Today at 11:42:53Not the track gauge, but height and width clearances.That's not what Petrochemicals actually said.

Oh yes it was! He said "rolling stock gauge" which, as you remember from your Hornby catalogue, refers to the superstructure, not the bogie.

Sorry chemist, the common term is loading guage, but it  was obvious from the quote content

The rolling stock  guage could be updated to european (and hs1) standards lots cheaper, that is the real sticking point about transeurope rail, our bridges are smaller and rollingstock narrower, we cannot run double deckers !

Thats why your on the ignore list.

You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.

i love it when you say that though

[Petrochemicals]

Today's news is relevant and revealing.

In January the government offered Flybe a repayable commercial loan of £100,000,000 (enough to build a bit less than 150 meters of HS2) to cover temporary difficulties. The offer was subsequently withdrawn, Flybe is bankrupt, and a highly efficient network linking cities from the Channel Isles to  Orkney and from Norwich to Belfast, has collapsed with the loss of 2000 jobs and acute hospital access from island communities.

They can open a nice bridge like the isle of sky and charge for it, guernsy to france, orkney to somewhere else ireland to the outer hebredies, "bonkers boris and his crazy shemes" would make a good cartoon strip..

I hear that they are providing assistance now to other airlines, so fly be is just one they let fail. Regional development and de londoncentric, helping communities. Maybe the cartoon strip should be "bollocks boris and his bullshit promises"

I do apologise if this is offensive, I do not often use language as such, but really id be suprised if the "northern powerhouse" and the "midlands engine" ammount to more than a trainee scheme to get people off the unemployed lists and a new tram.

[alancalverd (OP)]

"Orkney to somewhere else" has a good ring about it. Obviously not Inverness, because Mistress Nicola is proudly independent and won't accept a handout from Westminster. Reykjavik has good hospitals. All that is needed is to build a weatherproof bridge over one of the most dangerous bits of ocean anywhere, then subsidise some Party donor to run a train on the days when the wind drops below gale force and it isn't actually snowing.

Better still, as we will soon be enjoying a cod war with the EU, why not negotiate a mutual fishing agreement with Iceland and fit a few medical beds to the trawlers (except those that were scrapped under the Common Fisheries Policy)? "Broken your leg, sonny? Never mind, we'll have you in A&E within a week, and you'll eat like a king on the way, if you like fish."

[Petrochemicals]

"Orkney to somewhere else" has a good ring about it. Obviously not Inverness, because Mistress Nicola is proudly independent and won't accept a handout from Westminster. Reykjavik has good hospitals. All that is needed is to build a weatherproof bridge over one of the most dangerous bits of ocean anywhere, then subsidise some Party donor to run a train on the days when the wind drops below gale force and it isn't actually snowing.

Better still, as we will soon be enjoying a cod war with the EU, why not negotiate a mutual fishing agreement with Iceland and fit a few medical beds to the trawlers (except those that were scrapped under the Common Fisheries Policy)? "Broken your leg, sonny? Never mind, we'll have you in A&E within a week, and you'll eat like a king on the way, if you like fish."

Seems sane to me, yet this solution does not help anyone in anywhere uk mainland not in the south east. I suppose they could build a railway like japan.

Considering birmingham is londons closest neighbour and the midlands runs to within throwing distance of the big smoke, it is appaling that Hs2 is such a posterboy project, imagine if yokohama and tokyo where the onlyplaces connected thus far and a little more track was going to be comnected at 100 billion quid cost.  Fly be has gone, the severn crossing has only just become toll-free, and hs3 is projected to be 2035. Its not really regional development. That is both political parties fault by the way, red and blue, for years and years.

[Bored chemist]

Quote from: boredchemist
You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.
i love it when you say that though

In the real world, I never said that - so you are a liar.
If that's the best you can do... leave.

[alancalverd (OP)]

Considering birmingham is londons closest neighbour

If you ignore Watford, Luton, Milton Keynes, Northampton and Coventry, yes.

More to the point, Brum is without doubt the "second  city", with a population of 1.3 million, the center of manufacturing industry, major hospitals, universities, banks, markets, orchestras, theaters, civic amenities, international airport.....so there's very little point in saving 15 minutes travelling from one to the other at the taxpayer's expense. If you are that desperate to hear the CBSO instead of the LSO or vice versa, or to visit your aged aunt, get an earlier train.

[Bored chemist]

there's very little point in saving 15 minutes travelling from one to the other at the taxpayer's expense.

How fortunate, then, that the point of SH2 isn't to take 15 mins of teh London to B'ham rail journey.

It's a pity that nobody mentioned this before.
Oh, hang on,  they did.
It's just that you can't seem to accept this.

The point of HS2 is not actually to get people from London to Birmingham half an hour quicker. That would be silly.

you will only save 10 minutes by travelling at 120 mph

Damn!.
If only someone had realised that before.
Oh, yeah- I forgot; they did.

The point of HS2 is not actually to get people from London to Birmingham half an hour quicker. That would be silly.

If memory serves that's the third time I have pointed that out.

[alancalverd (OP)]

Of course, I keep forgetting. The point of HS2 is for the taxpayer to buy bits of expensive real estate at inflated prices, pay "consultants" as much as they want, subsidise yet another failing train operating company, pay excessive leasing charges for unreliable trains....we've seen it all before, and it is Good For The Economy.

Best of all, it uses quantum entanglement or some other form of magic to transport people from A to B even in the absence of a railway line, according to its official website

HS2 could also see the amount of hourly services double between Leeds and eastern towns such as#Newark, Grantham and Retford, with direct services to Norwich and Cambridge possible.

So there you have it!  If you spend £1,000,000,000 per mile on a track between London and Birmingham, you get a direct service from Leeds to Norwich! Maybe if we spent twice as much, say on a track from Cardiff to Swansea, we'd get a direct service from Dover to Penzance, or even New York. 

[Petrochemicals]

Considering birmingham is londons closest neighbour

If you ignore Watford, Luton, Milton Keynes, Northampton and Coventry, yes.

More to the point, Brum is without doubt the "second  city", with a population of 1.3 million, the center of manufacturing industry, major hospitals, universities, banks, markets, orchestras, theaters, civic amenities, international airport.....so there's very little point in saving 15 minutes travelling from one to the other at the taxpayer's expense. If you are that desperate to hear the CBSO instead of the LSO or vice versa, or to visit your aged aunt, get an earlier train.

To be pedantic you have forgotten daventry oxford and warwick rugby etc, luton and watford are part of london as far as i can make out.. The point is birmingham is the closest of the major cities, the most easily reached an largest place in the "regions", yet regional development connectivity has not reached even that far. So in saint austell  or blackpool you will be waiting until next century.

[alancalverd (OP)]

I had considered Oxford but it isn't on the shortest route from London to Birmingham. Watford and Luton do not have London postcodes or 0208 phone numbers, so are officially in Herts and Beds respectively.

There's a famous line from "Yes Minister" where the minister and permanent secretary are en route to a college dinner in Oxford. Minister asks (this was some years ago) why there are two motorways to Oxford and none to Cambridge. Reply: "Fifteen Oxford graduates have held the post of  Minister of Transport, and none from Cambridge." Which probably explains why HS2 is only funded to run to Neville Chamberlain's constituency, with not even a proposed link between Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds, where it's actually needed.

Having bought the northern vote with Brexit, why waste money moving pigeons and whippets across the country? Party donors own the land along the M1, not the M62.   

[Bored chemist]

Of course, I keep forgetting. The point of HS2 is for the taxpayer to buy bits of expensive real estate at inflated prices, pay "consultants" as much as they want, subsidise yet another failing train operating company, pay excessive leasing charges for unreliable trains....we've seen it all before, and it is Good For The Economy.

You are, presumably deliberately, muddling up the stupid political process with the actual point of the project- which is to more than double the rail capacity.

[Bored chemist]

Reply: "Fifteen Oxford graduates have held the post of  Minister of Transport, and none from Cambridge."

For HS2 it's more likely to be the 28 vs 14 score line for Prime Ministers.

[alancalverd (OP)]

the actual point of the project- which is to more than double the rail capacity.

And thus double the amount of public revenue subsidy required to keep the owners happy once we have paid for the infrastructure.

Fact is that private railways make a loss despite charging 3 times as much and taking 3 times as long as profitable airlines on the same route, which suggests that there is something wrong somewhere.

[Bored chemist]

Fact is that private railways make a loss despite charging 3 times as much and taking 3 times as long as profitable airlines on the same route, which suggests that there is something wrong somewhere.

Yes, it suggests that the airlines are not covering costs.
Which may be why one just went broke.

[alancalverd (OP)]

Whilst Ryanair, Easyjet, Loganair and Aurigny have been making a profit on similar routes and pricing for years, despite 20% of the fare being a direct tax. The problem with Flybe was longterm mismanagement. 

[Bored chemist]

Whilst Ryanair, Easyjet, Loganair and Aurigny have been making a profit on similar routes and pricing for years, despite 20% of the fare being a direct tax. The problem with Flybe was longterm mismanagement. 

Watch this space.

[alancalverd (OP)]

I've been watching it for years. It is noticeable that these very successful airlines have been negotiating to take over Flybe routes in the last few days, suggesting that Flybe's suicide was at least encouraged if not actually assisted. It's also odd that Virgin Atlantic was involved in propping up Flybe - and VA are not amateur philanthropists. I think it unlikely that Ryanair or Easyjet will pick up the shortest routes which seem  more suited to turboprop and even piston  aircraft, but these are also the ones like Scillies and Channel Islands that are essential public services and not particularly price sensitive, so Aurigny and Loganair are likely to step in once the government reviews the tax situation.

With train companies charging upwards of 50 p per mile for standing room, there's plenty of fat in the market.