Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: LDL on 20/07/2021 23:35:14
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May I suggest a hypothesis that seems to demonstrate an intuitive and symmetrical interplay between gravitational and charged fields. The concept of primary and non-primary directional space. This is an abstract concept using only elementary principles of physics.
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Is there a question or something you wanted to discuss?
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I posted a pdf file which proposes an abstract concept which seems to be a way that charged and gravitational fields can be linked. Just wanted some feedback.
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Hello.
Interesting insofar as it would be necessary to synthesize the material flow in a conventional oscillator.
Do you know the principle of phonons? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/1D_normal_modes_%28280_kB%29.gif)
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The unification of gravity and the EM force occurs via the electron. The electron is an elementary particle that has mass and negative charge. Negative charge and mass are unified as one thing via the electron, which means gravity and the EM force are also unified as one via the electron. This is the best starting place to begin the unification of all forces.
The proton, on the other hand, is not a single particle. Particle collider data tells us that the positive charge and its large mass are distinct and separate, if push comes to shove, Gravity and positive charge are not fully integrated via the proton.This allows for positive charge sharing in nuclei.
One property of mass is mass takes up space. In the case of atoms, the majority of space occupied by atoms is controlled by the electrons, in general, and by electron mass, in particular. This is because charge does not take up space the same way as mass. Mass takes up distinct space more or less uniformly. Charge is a point with diminishing space requirement with distance. The distinct orbital space of electrons tells me mass. Atomic size is always the same and distinct as inferred by no density fluctuations. Water remains1 gm/cc at STP.
As an example, of the electron, gravity and the unification with negative charge and the EM force, water at the surface of the earth has a density of 1gm/cc. Water at the conditions of the earth's core can form a metallic phase with a density of 5gm/cc. The space requirement for the mass of the water is five times lower in the core of the earth because of gravity. This change due to gravity causes a new distinct space requirement, allowing us to get a density standard.
The unification of gravity/mass and negative charge/EM force within the electrons will cause the electrons to adapt their negative charges and EM forces to the pressure from gravity. The EM forces will rearrange until its integrates with the new mass space requirement. We will get different EM properties from the surface water, due to the new integration of gravity and EM forces; lowered gravitational potential means higher negative charge mobility; magnetic forces increase. Metallic water also conducts electricity much better than liquid water, since negative charge has adapted to the needs of the lower space requirement; gravity and mass are running this show.
Gravity does not impact the proton as directly as the electron. Instead gravity will work more on its nuclear mass. The positive charge is more distinct from its mass, and will react more to the integration of electron mass and change, via the changes in EM properties. We get a reflection in the nucleus.
Since the mass of the proton is dominant, compared to the mass of the electron, gravity begins its action by targeting the mass within atomic nuclei. This has little direct impact on the positive change and its EM forces, until the mass space requirement of the electron starts to decrease. Then the positive charge starts to reflect the electron EM changes and adapt. This can then trigger changes in nuclear forces since they have an EM force connection.
Your experiments wit gravity and charge should show reciprocity as a function of mass space requirement.
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The unification of gravity and the EM force occurs via the electron.
No
That's silly.
Protons have mass.
You are also ignoring the positron.
None of what you say makes sense; why do you post it?
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I posted a pdf file which proposes an abstract concept which seems to be a way that charged and gravitational fields can be linked. Just wanted some feedback
I don't want to wade through a long pdf and I suspect other member feel the same.
Why don't you give a short synopsis of your idea? You will have much more participation if you do.
For me at least, if you seem to have an interesting idea, I would then read the pdf.
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Ok
I’ll try to explain the concept here by following a line of reasoning and if you feel the logic is faulty then please advise. I’m not trying to pull out a crackpot theory out of my butt. I’m just surmising and would like the opinion of more knowledgeable people.
Imagine an abstract circular body made up of a particle that travels back and forth within. Particle travel is a simple representation of internal activity.
The segment traveling right, particle segment right, is represented as (psr) and particle segment left is represented as (psl).
We know that mechanical forces of which there are two types, push and pull, when applied to a body will contract or expand particle segments within the body thereby altering the location of the body’s borders and changing its speed to a new inertial frame of reference. A push will initially contract while a pull will initially expand. After engagement with a force particle segments must then reconfigure to the new speed that the body is travelling. The key point here is that mechanical forces cause what I will call misalignment or distortion of lengths of internal particle segments.
Now let’s imagine a body in fall. We view it from outside the field. Bodies in fall do not experience stress and are unaware that they are in a state of nonuniform motion. Bodies do not sense their particle segment end-ponts establishing new borders. From the viewpoint of the falling body it would feel to be in a flat space and view us to be falling in the opposite direction. Because both particle segments fall in synchrony no misalignment of particle segments occurs and there is no acceleration by force.
But what happens if only one particle segment falls and not the other. If two particles within a body are travelling the same length of distance in opposite directions but one is travelling on a directional space that is falling then their relative distances of travel within the body are skewed. A misalignment between right and left particle segments is occurring. Does this lead to forces?
Let’s call this space an unbalanced gravitational field that creates unbalanced fall.
Let’s consider an unbalanced right fall of psr. If psr falls right its right segment of travel is expanded from the viewpoint of stationary psl. The body should accelerate right by expansion. But gravitational fall is relative and it is just as correct that an observation from psr determines that psl is expanding left. Which direction will the body accelerate?
If psr falls left its segment of travel is contracted from the viewpoint of psl and the body should accelerate left. But a viewpoint from psr determines that psl is the segment that is contracting.
Obviously, a choice has to be made on a primary directional space if acceleration is to occur.
If two types of bodies existed such that they always chose the opposite directional space as primary then in any unbalanced gravitational field they will always accelerate in opposite directions. Isn’t this what occurs within charged fields?
Conclusion
Charged electric fields are the result of unbalanced gravitational fields. Unbalanced gravitational fields cause misalignment in internal activity of matter by distorting lengths of internal motion. The result is similar to causing these distortions by mechanical means, namely push and pull forces. Two types of matter exist that determine the location of these distortions from the viewpoint of opposite directional spaces and hence will sense these distortions to occur in opposite fashion.
The field around one type will cause fall on inward-bound directional space.
The field around the other will cause fall on outward-bound directional space.
Does this not sound plausible
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Does this not sound plausible
It does not sound plausible.
The electromagnetic force is about 10^40 times stronger than the gravitational force. The electromagnetic force can be attractive or repulsive and the gravitational force is only attractive. The gravitational force is proportional to the mass and is not affected by the charge. The electromagnetic force is proportional to the charge and is not affected by the mass. An electron has a charge of 1.6 x 10^-19 C, a mass of 9.1 x 10^-31 kg and no internal structure. No matter what electric field or gravitational field the electron is experiencing it maintains its mass and charge.
Edited to add:
Charged electric fields are the result of unbalanced gravitational fields. Unbalanced gravitational fields cause misalignment in internal activity of matter by distorting lengths of internal motion.
If that were true then how could there be neutrons and protons right next to each other in the nucleus of an atom?
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I’m not disputing any of those things. I wish you would look at my pdf file (it really is an easy read) and get a feel on how the interplay of unbalanced gravitational fields and primary directional spaces can create forces in opposite directions. It is just an abstract concept but it is intuitive and displays symmetry. If and how it relates to reality is an endeavor that should be interesting to pursue. The pdf file is a condensed version of my take on this concept and I have touched on other relationships of physical interactions including anti-matter and magnetic fields.
In any case I thank you for your time and will retire from this post
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Hi
Does this not sound plausible
Well, maybe. I've only looked through what you've written here and not the pdf you attached.
You seem to make a distinction between left and right segments of a circular particle. Much as if the psr and psl are always going to be identified just be looking to see if they are on the right or the left. Is there something special about the viewpoint of the observer? Can they walk around to view the circular particle from the other side or lie down horizontally to see the psr and psl become p.s.top and p.s.bottom? You mentioned symmetry exists in your model, is it genuinely observer independent and/or isotropic?
As regards explaining more with your theory - well, maybe you've explained less. You seem to want to explain electromagnetic forces by gravity. We have reasonable experiments that do seem to have found "photons" which do seem to be the force mediators for electromagnetism. We have no reliable observations for a "graviton" or gravity force carrying particle. Suggesting that electromagnetism is caused by a gravitational field is almost the opposite way we would like to go. It doesn't mean that it's wrong, just that it makes both forces (gravity and electromagnetism) mediated by something mysterious which we haven't found yet. It's a unification of sorts, which is probably desirable but it (at least temporarily) robs our understanding of one thing that did seem to be reasonably well explained.
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Ok I’ll try to clarify.
The circle only represents the border of a body. The endpoints of internal particle motion establishes this border and maintains it as long as the body is not under the influence of mechanical forces. A simple presentation of internal activity of matter. I’m only using a linear two-dimensional space so the internal activity in one direction is pictured as a segment of travel.
Mechanical forces cause misalignment of particle travel segments. Push force contracts, pull force expands and particles segments must reconfigure to a new ratio of lengths to the new speed. This process always causes internal stress of compression or tension.
A body accelerating in a gravitational field does not undergo stresses. So when a body with internal motion is falling no new borders are established , its like the body retains its position in space as space itself falls.
But fall is relative. If you are falling in a field of space, from your viewpoint objects outside your field are viewed to be accelerating in the other direction.
If gravity only creates right fall on directional space right affecting only the particle travelling right, internal misalignment is created along with two viewpoints. The viewpoint from the non-falling space containing the left particle segment detects an expansion beyond the right border like a pull force right. But the viewpoint from the falling space that contains the right travelling particle detects an expansion of the left particle segment like a pull force left. They both can’t be correct.
(Reversing the fall against direction of particle travel results in contraction)
Which way will the body accelerate?
It must come down to type of body which chooses one directional space over the other as primary. Particles travelling on a primary directional space undergo no stress and do not change the location of borders. The other segment undergoes a charged force causing expansion or contraction. Acceleration is determined by the non-primary segment.
Unbalanced fall creates distortion of internal travel lengths but the distortions are relative and depending on which directional space the body determines to be primary, accelerations can occur in opposite directions.
Seems very much like charged field. Something to be explored, I think.
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It doesn't mean that it's wrong, just that it makes both forces (gravity and electromagnetism) mediated by something mysterious which we haven't found yet. It's a unification of sorts, which is probably desirable but it (at least temporarily) robs our understanding of one thing that did seem to be reasonably well explained.
In particle accelerator and collider experiments, the electron was found to be a single particle that has mass and negative charge. The proton was found to be composed of more than one particle. This tells me that gravity and the EM force are integrated via the electron but not via the proton.
The main problem with seeing the obvious is most of our gravity experiments use matter that has most of its mass connected to the proton, where mass and positive charge is not fully integrated. The results will not show any integrated connection between mass and positive charge.The mass of the electron is very small by comparison and is not the concern of such experiments. The results that we get are consistent with the proton not being an elementary particle. We did not even need particle accelerators to determine this. The experiment proposed by LDL appears to be using the electron; electric fields, and the results appear to be what one should expect from electron mass and its negative charge being unified as an elementary particle. I have not read the PDF since my math skills are not what they used to be. I am better at conceptual modeling before the math is used.
The bias of long standing traditions have made the negative and positive charge equal and opposites. Unfortunately for that tradition, nature created a practical situation for the matter of our universe, via the elementary particle nature of the electron, and the non-elementary particle nature of the proton.. A unified particle with negative charge and mass allows negative charge and mass to blend with each other via the unified state of the particle, making negative charge behave not exactly the same as positive charge, which is not unified that way. This is not to say positive and negative in isolation are equal and opposite. But reality added a wild card; two different particle states.
The easiest way to see this is to look at one of the classic properties of mass; mass takes up space. Most of the space occupied by atoms is taken up by the mass of the electrons; orbital space due to the natural inertia of electrons. If we apply gravitational pressure to atoms, we can lower that space requirement. This requires the electrons change orbital configurations via connected changes in EM potential.
As a more direct example, liquid water has a density of 1 gm/cc, while the exotic state of water called metallic water is about 5 gm/cc. The transition from liquid to metal cause the electron mass is take up less space, with the EM properties of the water is changing drastically. It goes from an insulator to a strong conductor.
A even better example occurs in liquid water at room temperature; hydrogen bonding. A hydrogen bond can form both polar and/or covalent bonds, These have different space requirements but are very close in energy, allowing the hydrogen bond to act as a binary switch; swap between polar and covalent bonding. It is a way to store and transmit information with both free energy and mechanical properties.
This reversible transition between polar and covalent bonding changes the volume of space occupied by the bonding electrons, with the polar side of the switch having less space requirement. The loss of space, into the polar side of the switch, will increase the local enthalpy; internal energy; EM, and the entropy of the water. The loss of space also causes a local pressure drop used for mechanical advantage.
Life can transmit information as EM signals; hydrogen protons, that can translate to changes of electron space; binary switch, allowing local movement between enzymatic states; different space-requirements that can alter EM bonds of substrates; electrical and mechanical unified via the electron.
The DNA is big into hydrogen bonding therefore it takes advantage the unified nature of the electron. Templates relationship have unique space and EM needs. The packing of the DNA into Chromosomes take up less space within the water with its surface EM signal now seen by only the unpacking enzymes. The unified electron is easy to study with larger experiments.
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In particle accelerator and collider experiments, the electron was found to be a single particle that has mass and negative charge. The proton was found to be composed of more than one particle. This tells me that gravity and the EM force are integrated via the electron but not via the proton.
You are also ignoring the positron.
None of what you say makes sense; why do you post it?
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The bias of long standing traditions have made the negative and positive charge equal and opposites.
It isn't some sort of "bias"; it's ab observation.
When a positron and an electron interact there is nothing "material" left, so the two particles must be the same in every regard except charge.
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mass takes up space
Unless it doesns't.
The electron, as far as we can tell, does not.