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Colin - In addition to my posts above:First you say:Quote from: Colin2B on 20/11/2016 11:54:14Quote from: timey on 20/11/2016 11:23:56But the clock IS blue shifted 'at' elevation... (this has been the whole point of the thread)Not from our point of view. We were trying to convince you that it isn't blue shifted 'at elevation'.And then you say:Quote from: Colin2B on 19/03/2017 12:13:53Quote from: timey on 18/03/2017 15:35:52Because the equivalence principle states that the caesium atom ground state 'is' the same frequency in each and every gravity potential, and my model states that it's not.I would say that 'the caesium atom ground state is measured to be the same frequency in each and every gravity potential when measured by an observer at the same location'. Can't say if there is an absolute frequency for each GP because we can't measure it. I can't see how my view differs from what you are saying:Quote from: timey on 18/03/2017 16:04:24...and is it not true that if one observes a caesium atom placed at an elevated position from oneself that it is observed to be of a higher frequency?Yes, when measured using the local time at the observer's location. But change the observer's location and the measured frequency changes.As I say, I really don't see a real difference in what you are saying and certainly not one which would result in immense changes. However, you aren't going to change your view, and it isn't significant enough to me, so we will have to agree to differ and leave it at that.Look forward to seeing the results/proof however.If you were trying to convince me that the clock is not of higher frequency 'at elevation', then how can you say:Quote"I would say that 'the caesium atom ground state is measured to be the same frequency in each and every gravity potential when measured by an observer at the same location"... ?This implies that there 'are' frequency changes 'at' elevation, and that if one measures the frequency via the rate of time 'at' that elevation, one arrives at the frequency of ground state atom, therefore a clock 'does' have a higher frequency 'at elevation'!I would have thought it significant to you that your understanding appears to be somewhat contradictory...and perhaps more significant that this contradictory understanding may not be yours alone.
Quote from: timey on 20/11/2016 11:23:56But the clock IS blue shifted 'at' elevation... (this has been the whole point of the thread)Not from our point of view. We were trying to convince you that it isn't blue shifted 'at elevation'.
But the clock IS blue shifted 'at' elevation... (this has been the whole point of the thread)
Quote from: timey on 18/03/2017 15:35:52Because the equivalence principle states that the caesium atom ground state 'is' the same frequency in each and every gravity potential, and my model states that it's not.I would say that 'the caesium atom ground state is measured to be the same frequency in each and every gravity potential when measured by an observer at the same location'. Can't say if there is an absolute frequency for each GP because we can't measure it. I can't see how my view differs from what you are saying:Quote from: timey on 18/03/2017 16:04:24...and is it not true that if one observes a caesium atom placed at an elevated position from oneself that it is observed to be of a higher frequency?Yes, when measured using the local time at the observer's location. But change the observer's location and the measured frequency changes.As I say, I really don't see a real difference in what you are saying and certainly not one which would result in immense changes. However, you aren't going to change your view, and it isn't significant enough to me, so we will have to agree to differ and leave it at that.Look forward to seeing the results/proof however.
Because the equivalence principle states that the caesium atom ground state 'is' the same frequency in each and every gravity potential, and my model states that it's not.
...and is it not true that if one observes a caesium atom placed at an elevated position from oneself that it is observed to be of a higher frequency?
"I would say that 'the caesium atom ground state is measured to be the same frequency in each and every gravity potential when measured by an observer at the same location"
Quote from: GoC on 19/03/2017 12:49:54I do not think he meant that. Wording has to be accurate for the correct meaning. Can you find where that statement was made?Yes GoC, wording has to be accurate as you say. Given the context of the link provided the wording requires (and deserves) a fuller answer than a simple misleading yes no. Don't have time at the moment, but if have in next couple of days I will write out so we can see where there is common ground and why we try to use very specific wording.
I do not think he meant that. Wording has to be accurate for the correct meaning. Can you find where that statement was made?
Quote from: Colin2B on 20/03/2017 08:16:10Quote from: GoC on 19/03/2017 12:49:54I do not think he meant that. Wording has to be accurate for the correct meaning. Can you find where that statement was made?Yes GoC, wording has to be accurate as you say. Given the context of the link provided the wording requires (and deserves) a fuller answer than a simple misleading yes no. Don't have time at the moment, but if have in next couple of days I will write out so we can see where there is common ground and why we try to use very specific wording.Colin - In the NIST thread of last year that I posted a link to in a post above and copied and pasted that comment from you saying that you and everyone else were trying to convince me that a clock does not have a higher frequency 'at elevation' - you and others posting on that thread ridiculed me for saying that a clock's frequency 'is' higher 'at' elevation.You all told me that the observation was shifted 'from' that elevation and that when in that coordinate with that clock the clock would be ticking normally.There is an immense difference in stating that an observation is shifted 'from' another coordinate, and stating that the observation is shifted when you go 'to' that coordinate and measure the observation with the local time of that coordinate.The first states that the frequency change doesn't really occur it only looks like it's occurring when observed from another coordinate in the gravity potential.The second states that the frequency change does really occur, and that when measuring that frequency with the local time 'at' that coordinate, that the frequency will be ground state.Measuring an observed invariant frequency via variable timings will result in differing frequencies.Measuring the changing frequency in differing gravity potentials via invariant time will result in differing frequencies.Measuring the observed changed frequency via the observed changed tick rate will result in an invariant frequency, this being ground state for the caesium atom.If we have cleared up this long standing misunderstanding of an observation of a clock being shifted 'from' another coordinate, then I'd like to talk about the fact that light in the gravity potential is shifting frequency in the opposing direction to a clock...A clock shifts to a higher frequency in the weaker gravity field.Light shifts to a higher frequency in the stronger gravity field.
You are almost absolutely correct. To be pedantic, the photon is blue shifted "from", not "at" the top of the tower.
Quote from: timey on 20/11/2016 11:23:56(It may be that Relativity didn't predict that atoms are blue shifted in elevation, but it is most certainly not nonsense that they are because it is proven by the NIST experiment... And if a cesium atom is blue shifted at elevation, a gamma ray source will be as well.)NIST did not prove this. The Al ion was not blue shifted in its frame at elevation.
(It may be that Relativity didn't predict that atoms are blue shifted in elevation, but it is most certainly not nonsense that they are because it is proven by the NIST experiment... And if a cesium atom is blue shifted at elevation, a gamma ray source will be as well.)
You all told me that the observation was shifted 'from' that elevation and that when in that coordinate with that clock the clock would be ticking normally.
There is an immense difference in stating that an observation is shifted 'from' another coordinate, and stating that the observation is shifted when you go 'to' that coordinate and measure the observation with the local time of that coordinate.
The first states that the frequency change doesn't really occur it only looks like it's occurring when observed from another coordinate in the gravity potential.
The second states that the frequency change does really occur, and that when measuring that frequency with the local time 'at' that coordinate, that the frequency will be ground state.
If we have cleared up this long standing misunderstanding of an observation of a clock being shifted 'from' another coordinate,
then I'd like to talk about the fact that light in the gravity potential is shifting frequency in the opposing direction to a clock...A clock shifts to a higher frequency in the weaker gravity field.Light shifts to a higher frequency in the stronger gravity field.
Just a point of clarity, ground state refers to the electron transitions in the atom, which determine the frequency it emits. This does not change when an atom is moved to a higher GP, or when observed from a different elevation, the electron transition do not move to higher energy levels causing higher frequency photons. This is why current physics views the frequency of the atom as constant at all elevations. If it did change you would see a different spectrum of lines at elevation.
All my comments are made re current physics and I appreciate that you might have a different view from current physics, and that's ok in this section.
[/size]This is a subjective opinion about seeing different spectrum of lines at elevation proving the electron transition do not move to higher energy levels causing higher frequencies.
What do the electron transitions of an atom have to do with the emission of a photon?
Are electron transitions related to quantum energy levels?
A clock shifts to a higher frequency in the weaker gravity field.
Light shifts to a higher frequency in the stronger gravity field.
Quote from: timey on 20/03/2017 11:52:30A clock shifts to a higher frequency in the weaker gravity field. when observed from a lower gravitational potential than the clockQuoteLight shifts to a higher frequency in the stronger gravity field.when observed from a lower gravitational potential than the source.If you stick to the observed facts and standard terminology, you won't confuse yourself.
Ok - so to be precise:Light on the inbound and on the outbound will have a lower frequency in the weaker gravity field, or higher gravity potential, whichever you prefer.
The clock will have a higher frequency when observed in the weaker gravity field, or higher gravity potential, whichever you prefer, when observed 'from' the lower gravity potential.
When placing oneself in the higher gravity potential, one is measuring the frequency of the clock held relative to the tick rate of the clock at that gravity potential, and the frequency of the clock is ground state.
But if one observes the clock in the lower gravity potential, and in observing that the lower gravity potential clock is running slower than the clock one is with at elevation, one then uses the rate of time of the lower clock to measure the frequency of the elevated clock, the frequency of the elevated clock will again be higher than ground state, as observed when one was with the lower gravity potential clock.
Which means that a clock's frequency is always increased in the weaker gravity field, or the higher gravity potential...And that lights frequency is always decreased in the weaker gravity field, or higher gravity potential.
If one measures the frequency of the caesium atom at any gravity potential using the tick rate of a clock at that gravity potential, then the frequency of the atom is always 9,192,631,770Hz, and that 'is' ground state.
There is no standard of time and there is no standard ground state to measure against. All observations are relative. Physics is the same in every frame because every measurement has the same ratio of relativity. There is no rest frame.