Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Plant Sciences, Zoology & Evolution => Topic started by: Don_1 on 05/01/2011 08:22:52
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A few days ago some 5000 Red Wing Blackbirds fell dead out of the Arkansas sky. Now 500 more have been found dead in neighbouring Louisiana and more deaths have been reported in Kentucky. Other birds affected by this sudden death included Grackles, Starlings and Brown-headed Cowbirds.
New year celebratory fireworks are being considered as a possible suspect as are hailstones. PM's on some birds in Arkansas concluded that the cause of death was external trauma.
What do you think caused this tragedy and can we do anything to avoid future repeats?
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After the cultural revolution, the PRC 'declared war' on several animal pests - I hope it is not an urban myth, but I heard that against the sparrow, entire villages would stop the birds roosting for an entire night. These small creatures with a tip-top metabolic rate just could not make it through the night and the next day having missed their roost and died in entire hosts. Is is possible that a similar disturbance to the quotidian regimen (by fireworks and perhaps other means) caused the bird deaths in USA?
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I believe one of the current hypotheses is that the birds were startled from their roosts by the fireworks and, having little or no night vision, simply died of flying into things (trees, walls, possibly each other) in their panic. Apparently post mortem examination of the birds by the local vetinary pathologist indicated that they'd suffered physical injuries, which suggests it wasn't just that their metabolism packed up for lack of sleep.
(I don't have a reference.. it was on radio 4 (BBC) yesterday evening, either PM or the 6 o'clock news).
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The suggestion that this may have been caused by fireworks let off in celebration of the new year might explain the Arkansas deaths, but not those which have died after the new year celebrations in Louisiana and Kentucky. But even so, why would this have been restricted to Arkansas? Why did it not happen in Georgia, Texas, New York or even London, for that matter.
Hailstones, resulting from recent storms in the region, might be a more likely culprit, but then the question would be, why were the birds flying in such foul weather? (unintentional pun).
It should also be noted that an estimated 80,000 Drum Fish also suddenly died in the Arkansas River.
Probably unrelated, there were also 10's of thousands of dead fish washed up on the Maryland Chesapeake Bay estuary recently.
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Arkansas isn't that in "Tornado alley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_alley)" ? ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raining_animals
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This time in Sweden.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6184100/more_dead_birds_falling_from_the_sky.html?cat=8
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(I don't have a reference.. it was on radio 4 (BBC) yesterday evening, either PM or the 6 o'clock news).
Hmmm,
They broadcast BBC on NPR in the USA... Do they broadcast NPR & PBS on BBC in the UK?
I heard the story about internal hemorrhaging caused by running into things on NPR too.
I suppose I find it a little surprising. I've had birds fly into windows before. It will usually knock them out for a few minutes, but they usually get up and fly away.
I wonder if anybody had the bright idea of firing a percussion cannon directly into a tree where the birds were roosting (kind of like dropping dynamite into a lake).
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Well, I see it is both fish and birds in small towns in Arkansas.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6176412/dead_birds_in_arkansas_were_preceded.html?cat=7
I've never heard about "Drum Fish" before. But, I wouldn't be surprised if someone dropped some big "firecrackers" into a lake... what I said a few minutes before I saw this report. Although it is odd that it is a single species.
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This does all remind me a bit of a TV show last year called "Flash Forward".
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They broadcast BBC on NPR in the USA... Do they broadcast NPR & PBS on BBC in the UK?
I don't think so... I guess you get bits of the World Service?
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Both of the species mentioned eat insects as part of their staple diet. The birds are going to have physical injuries if they fell from the sky!
What if an insecticide has been used that caused the insects to all die off in large batches making them easy pickings?
Have any toxicologists got involved with this yet and if not why not?
Drum fish are very aggressive and this might explain why they appear to be the only fish species effected in any large numbers. Also Drum fish eat other fish so exacerbating any toxins through eating the insects and other dying fish that have become an easy meal.
The reason it might be a local phenomenon is that new insecticides would be tested at local levels.
Just a theory [;D]
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Autopsies carried out on the Arkansas birds have revealed that death was caused by blunt trauma while in mid air. These injuries were not caused by the birds dropping out of the sky. Toxicology has proved there to be no poisons involved.
The Drum Fish are thought to have died from some disease, not poisoning. See this. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40885546/ns/us_news-environment/)
In addition to these incidents in the southern states of Arkansas, Louisiana and Kentucky and the Chesapeake Bay incident in Maryland, there has now been a report of a similar incident, as Geezer pointed out, in Sweden and in the latest incident 100 tons of Sardines, Croaker and Catfish have been washed up dead along the Brazilian coastline near Paranaguá
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Both of the species mentioned eat insects as part of their staple diet. The birds are going to have physical injuries if they fell from the sky!
What if an insecticide has been used that caused the insects to all die off in large batches making them easy pickings?
Have any toxicologists got involved with this yet and if not why not?
Drum fish are very aggressive and this might explain why they appear to be the only fish species effected in any large numbers. Also Drum fish eat other fish so exacerbating any toxins through eating the insects and other dying fish that have become an easy meal.
The reason it might be a local phenomenon is that new insecticides would be tested at local levels.
Just a theory [;D]
Why would insecticides designed to kill insects be toxic to birds? New insecticides are tested in labs way before they get trialled in the fields, and toxicity to animals higher up the food chain is usually picked up before field trials.
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Variola, one of the problems associated with insecticides and pesticides is that they are individually tested as you say in the labs before field tests. Unfortunately when you get several of these chemicals being used at the same time they can react with eathother. This effect is not tested for in the labs!
Some insecticides kill or harm other creatures in addition to those they are intended to kill. For example, birds may be poisoned when they eat food that was recently sprayed with insecticides or when they mistake insecticide granules on the ground for food and eat it. (Palmer, WE, Bromley, PT, and Brandenburg, RL. Wildlife & pesticides - Peanuts. North Carolina Cooperative Extension Service. Retrieved on 14 October 2007.) Source; wikipedia-Insecticides
Some insecticides have been banned due to the fact that they are persistent toxins which have adverse effects on animals and/or humans. Examples; aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, mirex and toxaphene.
Insecticides vary widely not only in effectiveness against target insects (which may develop resistance) but also in toxicity to nontarget species (including humans) and environmental effects. (Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: insecticide)
So Variola, I hope the above answers your question, the simple answer is that insecticides do effect and even kill other so called non target animals!
Don_1, I have to say I am bewildered as to how someone can tell if these birds were injured whilst being airborne! Let me explain myself; If a bird lost the ability to fly for whatever reason and then plummeted to earth striking the ground with some force, causing death, how would you tell the difference? The bird that was hit by a mysterious blunt object in the sky would be exactly the same as the bird hit by a very large blunt object after falling, the ground!!! In both cases internal haemorrhaging would be the cause of death except that my explanation does not require bird attacking mysterious airborne blunt objects!
On a further note; Karen Rowe, an ornithologist for the Arkansas Livestock and Poultry commission, said the incident is not that unusual and is often caused by a lightning strike or high-altitude hail. "Initial examinations of a few of the dead birds showed trauma. Whether or not this trauma was from the force of hitting the ground when they fell or from something that contacted them in the air, we don't know," Rowe said. (Source: CNN)
One more thing that I find interesting, on the Monday, 3rd January, a press release that is included in the above posts state that no poisons were discovered in the birds. How do they know this when the results have not even been released yet from the labs and should be released on Friday 7th!!!
Also dozens of U.S. Environmental Services crews spent the day picking up the birds, walking between homes and climbing on roofs with protective hazmat suits and breathing masks, just a precaution? mmmmmmmmmm
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So Variola, I hope the above answers your question, the simple answer is that insecticides do effect and even kill other so called non target animals!
But you mention new pesticides, the ones you have cited are old compounds not anything new.
If a pesticide was to blame, it would have had a gradual toxic effect, which some birds being affected on the ground, not one where birds suddenly fall out of the air en mass. [???]
New chemicals are checked alongside known other well-used compounds in the lab, not least because not all insect activity is unwelcome, but also because of a financial consideration.
Toxicity to one species does not imply toxicity to another.
I do know a little about pesticides, I work with BT.
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Varioloa, I am not saying that something that is toxic to one species is toxic to another I am saying that it might be. And evidence shows this to be the case.
You say you know a little about pesticides as you work with BT. I hope you are not referring to Britsh Telecommunications!
Also I know a little about pesticides too as my degree is related to this subject, maybe you should read this.... http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Pesticide#Dangers_of_pesticides
I also understand that there is a common practice of misuse involving pesticides by mixing them together.
Some pesticides as I am sure you know cause weakness and paralyses and are designed to work quickly to prevent bio-accumulation. Could it be that something like that was responsible for what happened to the birds?
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You say you know a little about pesticides as you work with BT. I hope you are not referring to Britsh Telecommunications!
Not quite!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_thuringiensis
Some pesticides as I am sure you know cause weakness and paralyses and are designed to work quickly to prevent bio-accumulation. Could it be that something like that was responsible for what happened to the birds?
If it had of been that, then there would have been more variability, and spread over a wider area. Birds would eat different amounts of insect and therefore different levels of any toxin. You would find birds on the ground near to the crops, some nearly dead, and it would happen over a slower time gradient, as more insects die and more birds eat them. Plus what works in an insect may not work in a bird, hence many birds can eat dead insects killed by insecticides and just poop the toxic matter out again.
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Varilola, wow a genetic scientist [;D] Do you have a theory on what might have happened?
Hopefully the results will be out later today on the toxicology reports and if non are present then we can eliminate toxins as a cause of the bird and fish deaths.
Maybe it's a combination of shock making the birds take flight and hail. I have not seen any meteorology reports on hail in that area at the time but I am sure someone will solve this puzzle.
Still I thought I was onto something [;D] Thanks for your info.
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Varilola, wow a genetic scientist
Not quite! Still in training.
Do you have a theory on what might have happened?
Not a clue, other than I doubt it was anything like poisoning/toxicology because of the way they died.
Still I thought I was onto something
Hey you still might be, just because I don't think it is, doesn't meant it wont be.
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I work with BT.
I thought she was talking about people's bums [:I]
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After reading all the latest news reports on this, I would have to say that someone is definitely talking from bums!
Now they are saying the results might take up to a month. Maybe Variola can confirm how long it takes to make some basic tests for toxins in an animal?
They have been tested for common pesticides and that turned up negative.
This is a quote from one report pertaining to mass deaths of animals "Federal records show they happen on average every other day somewhere in North America. Usually, we don't notice them and don't try to link them to each other." Well that is a great attitude to have hey!!
Some supposedly informed people have told news reporters that, "they died from flying into things at night". Is it April fools or am I missing something here? Here is the obvious question that needs answering, does this place turn off all it's street lamps at night? We are led to assume that this place is totally pitch black at night! What about all those external Christmas decorations the Americans are so famous for, the place would have been like Blackpool Illuminations! As it was new years eve I expect that a lot of people would have been up celebrating, making noise and also using the lights in their homes too.
To be honest I have a feeling there will never be an offical answer to this, call it just a feeling [;D]
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I would go with "freak weather conditions" myself.
Not that it makes me happier, maybe a combination too, like fireworks setting them off in some cases, also there have been a lot of snow here the last years. That have to make it harder to survive for birds, so they probably was comparably weaker to years when we had less or no snow. What worries me if it will continue, not that I expect it :) sooner or later this freakish weather should change to a warmer climate as the warming keeps on, but then we have all that ice melting, and the golf stream possibly changing course or disappearing. I don't like it at all.
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I would go with "freak weather conditions" myself.
I find it a little odd an animal that has been around for about 100 million years should succumb to something like the weather?
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Depends on the severity I guess?
And it's not everyone, even if a lot locally.
It's only a guess though.
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Depends on the severity I guess?
And it's not everyone, even if a lot locally.
It's only a guess though.
Own up Yoron. We know you were goofing around with your "experimental" fireworks.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6184100/more_dead_birds_falling_from_the_sky.html?cat=8
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I have to admit I have always really felt for birds when fireworks are let off. Poor things!! I imagine these innocent little creatures just trying to survive and we literally terrorize them. [:-[]
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It's starting to get a little worrying.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8246678/More-than-1000-turtle-doves-fall-from-the-sky-in-Italy-in-latest-mass-bird-death-case.html
''After cavalcades of dead birds and fish from Arkansas and Texas to Sweden and New Zealand, tests are being carried out on the bodies of turtle doves in Italy after hundreds rained down near Ravenna. ''
''For the last five days wildlife experts and officers from the forestry commission have picked up more than 1,000 turtle doves as well as other birds including pigeons.
Yesterday alone 300 corpses were recovered with all of them having a blue tinge to their beaks, which scientists say indicates poisoning or hypoxia which is lack of oxygen that can confuse animals''
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Perhaps we should merge this topic with the existing topic we have on the subject.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=36437.0
Would you agree?
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It's starting to get a little worrying.
what we got so far then;
a) This is a global phenomenon
b) Seems to be birds and fish
c) The best scientists in the world do not have answers!
If these cases are all related then it leaves very few possibilities
Disease, viral, or poisons?
For all these birds to die around a similar time suggests that if it is viral then it must have been dormant in the birds for some time for it to spread globally, or was introduced from space!
Poisons would be an answer but again how could this be happening over such a large global area? Unless someone has released something in an attempt to control human population and the birds are an indicator of what is to come for us. Time to get into that bunker maybe?
Disease maybe?
At present this seems to be effecting a very small number of the total global bird and fish populations, still as QuantumClue sais, worrying!! I say watch this space!!
I think the other topic should be merged with this one as this one is more general relating to new information on the subject. Or even better a merger into a new topic title such as Bird & fish deaths, what is causing this?
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Well, got to admit that I've always had an eye for the birds. What is it they say? "better a bird in a bush than a bush in the bird?" Nah, wait.. "Better a bush in the bird that a bird in the bush?" Well something like it, maybe it involved humming birds? It's getting late here I must admit :)
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Perhaps we should merge this topic with the existing topic we have on the subject.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=36437.0
Would you agree?
If you want Geezer.
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It's starting to get a little worrying.
what we got so far then;
a) This is a global phenomenon
b) Seems to be birds and fish
c) The best scientists in the world do not have answers!
If these cases are all related then it leaves very few possibilities
Disease, viral, or poisons?
For all these birds to die around a similar time suggests that if it is viral then it must have been dormant in the birds for some time for it to spread globally, or was introduced from space!
Poisons would be an answer but again how could this be happening over such a large global area? Unless someone has released something in an attempt to control human population and the birds are an indicator of what is to come for us. Time to get into that bunker maybe?
Disease maybe?
At present this seems to be effecting a very small number of the total global bird and fish populations, still as QuantumClue sais, worrying!! I say watch this space!!
I think the other topic should be merged with this one as this one is more general relating to new information on the subject. Or even better a merger into a new topic title such as Bird & fish deaths, what is causing this?
We just don't know. If it's hypoxia, then we need to ask why birds all over the world are now being suffocated... from what exactly? And if it is viral, why isn't the death toll much higher, presuming that it has successfully spred to italy, to sweden and from all over the USA. What is unique about these countries? And what about our wide range of species of birds?
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We just don't know. If it's hypoxia, then we need to ask why birds all over the world are now being suffocated... from what exactly? And if it is viral, why isn't the death toll much higher, presuming that it has successfully spred to italy, to sweden and from all over the USA. What is unique about these countries? And what about our wide range of species of birds?
As you say it is worrying to say the least, maybe we are in the early stages of a viral outbreak. I think it might be possible for a heart attack to cause hypoxia and also respiratory problems that a virus could be responsible for?
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:)
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
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We just don't know. If it's hypoxia, then we need to ask why birds all over the world are now being suffocated... from what exactly? And if it is viral, why isn't the death toll much higher, presuming that it has successfully spred to italy, to sweden and from all over the USA. What is unique about these countries? And what about our wide range of species of birds?
As you say it is worrying to say the least, maybe we are in the early stages of a viral outbreak. I think it might be possible for a heart attack to cause hypoxia and also respiratory problems that a virus could be responsible for?
There might have been a high level of stress from fireworks could answer for the hypoxia, but then we need to ask why we have never seen this before... and why such a large range of birds are being effected.
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We just don't know. If it's hypoxia, then we need to ask why birds all over the world are now being suffocated... from what exactly? And if it is viral, why isn't the death toll much higher, presuming that it has successfully spred to italy, to sweden and from all over the USA. What is unique about these countries? And what about our wide range of species of birds?
As you say it is worrying to say the least, maybe we are in the early stages of a viral outbreak. I think it might be possible for a heart attack to cause hypoxia and also respiratory problems that a virus could be responsible for?
There might have been a high level of stress from fireworks could answer for the hypoxia, but then we need to ask why we have never seen this before... and why such a large range of birds are being effected.
Quote "On 13-14 March 1904, an article in the Quarterly Journal of Ornithology reported at least 750,000 migrating Lapland Longspurs were found dead in Worthington, Minnesota. Some were said to have flown against buildings, electric lights and wires, and others to have dashed themselves on frozen ground and ice. The dead birds were sprawled over 1,500 square miles". (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12135380)
Now I cannot verify this story and it seems a little unusual in that it is very similar to what happened in America recently! On this kind of scale I would suggest that it could be viral?
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Hmmm.
Well the first thing to bear in mind is that it may not be that we are seeing greater levels of avian deaths, it could just be we are hearing about it more because of the unusual circumstance of the red wing blackbirds being reported. Although it is not a usual occurrence for birds to just fall out of the sky! But it is often the case with media that you get a stream of stories, all related being reported whereas usually they might not be.
Aside from that, it is baffling. [???] If it was viral, which it might be, I would expect more species of birds in the same area to be affected, rather than just seemingly random 'clumps' of birds being affected. I would also expect to see a more gradual increase, a few birds being found first then increasing as time goes on. But that is just based on my thoughts, I could be quite wrong. [:)]
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A scientist I just spoke to of physics believes our biosphere is dying. I hope he is wrong, because that would lead to the extinction of everything eventually.
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Bird experts seem to think it's media hype.
At any given time there are "at least ten billion birds in North America ... and there could be as much as 20 billion—and almost half die each year due to natural causes," said ornithologist Greg Butcher, director of bird conservation for the National Audubon Society in Washington, D.C.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110106-birds-falling-from-sky-bird-deaths-arkansas-science/
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I saw this movie called "The Core." The earth's core stopped spinning which caused birds to crash into buildings and die in huge numbers.
Then they built a giant drill out of unobtanium and drilled to the earth's core to restart it!
I hope that's not the cause, because I'm fresh out of unobtanium. :(
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JP
I think those bird experts haven't thought through their contentions on this at all. Afterall, bird deaths are not uncommon, that is correct... but they don't die sporadically in the thousands, nor in one specific place unless some there is a viral outbreak or some astmospheric contamination.
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JP
I think those bird experts haven't thought through their contentions on this at all. Afterall, bird deaths are not uncommon, that is correct... but they don't die sporadically in the thousands, nor in one specific place unless some there is a viral outbreak or some astmospheric contamination.
Actually that's precisely what experts say does happen. I'm going to put my trust in this one with the scientists who specialize in studying birds.
Here's another story where experts are saying this isn't unusual:
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/lifestyle/01/08/11/mass-bird-and-fish-deaths-stoke-curiosity
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Well I don't believe that flocks upon flocks of birds die simultaneously because of natural causes.
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http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=201817256339889828327.0004991bca25af104a22b
a link to un explained animal deaths from around the world via google maps
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A scientist I just spoke to of physics believes our biosphere is dying. I hope he is wrong, because that would lead to the extinction of everything eventually.
The scientist you spoke too is in my opinion absolutely correct although as for the recent bird deaths?
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Volcanism. the hundreds of mini quakes..the fish and birds were killed by discharges of carbon monoxide. hypoxia.
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Volcanism ? in the UK? think not..
death by a bird disease? what all at the same time? also think not.
a rather cold snap- not really too localised.. unless they flew to far up where the air is colder and less oxygen
magnetic pulse? doubt it very hard to create such a large pulse that would kill anything unless many times greater than the suns field. but maybe birds following the earths distorted magnetic lines and flying to high? i think that could be a real contender, as for the fish could be lots of things.
anyway it shouldn’t be something that we all just dismiss though we need good scientific proof after the speculations.
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Visualize a very low-flying fighter jet buzzing the town of Beebe, Arkansas at midnight on new years eve. Littlerock Air Force base is very close too Beebe Arkansas. Say some jet jockeys wanted to bring in the new year with a bang and startle their friends or family or just have fun with a sonic boom to bring in the new year.
Suppose it was two of them. The first plane comes in low and startles the birds. The birds are shaken from their roosts and fly in a panic into the night sky. Then the second jet comes in low and is braking the sound barrier and comes within a couple hundred feet of the bird flocks delivering a lethal concussive blow to these birds which then fly away from the blast and very rapidly begin dying and falling to the ground covering about a one mile area. This is another theory.
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I have it from an unimpeachable source I met in a pub that it was caused by some tearaway aliens zipping about the cosmos in their souped-up flying saucers.
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Volcanism ? in the UK? think not..
not in the uk...in Arkansas. caused by the added weight of melted polar caps on tectonic plates, frakking, gulf oil drilling...new volcano in Arkansas on the way.
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Volcanism ? in the UK? think not..
not in the uk...in Arkansas. caused by the added weight of melted polar caps on tectonic plates, frakking, gulf oil drilling...new volcano in Arkansas on the way.
I think it's more likely to take the form of a major earthquake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone
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New case:
http://stardrive.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3070:over-100-dead-birds-found-near-california-highway&catid=45:weird-desk&Itemid=103
100 birds drop dead near california
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and more fish die off in unusual circumstances...
http://www.suntimes.com/3248260-417/shad-chicago-gizzard-harbors-die.html
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To answer the original question, it was probably fireworks:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7054C020110106
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Unlikely JP I must say. Birds are showing up dead where fireworks are absent, not to mention that every new year there would be visible traces of mass bird deaths right on the doorstep of peoples homes. Forgive me, but I don't recall anyone last year reporting even anything remotely close to these mass deaths.
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Also another reason that it is unlikely is because birds are still falling out the sky. If fireworks caused any distress, fatal distress at that, it would have killed them right at new year... not two weeks down the line.
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Ok, but this is a science forum, not a conspiracy theory forum. The original post presumably wanted a scientific answer to the question. Scientists have explained the 5000 bird death, and they've explained that this level of bird death is normal, and that all that's changed is the media reporting of it. Do you have a rebuttal based on science?
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Conspiracy theory?
You gave your question to the OP - I am challenging the likelihood of that event.
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As for rebuttal, I'm afraid you have very little scientific evidence either. Your claim is also speculation.
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And I have also explained about the bird deaths concerning this ''explanation'' bird experts have. I simply don't believe flocks of birds die simultaneously in a specific area over night.
Go figure JP, seriously. Think about how wildish that claim is.
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As for rebuttal, I'm afraid you have very little scientific evidence either. Your claim is also speculation.
Yeah, I suppose it's just speculation to assume that the scientists who are studying this are using science.
...I simply don't believe flocks of birds die simultaneously in a specific area over night.
And scientists who study this do. Their belief is based on scientific evidence. Yours is based on...?
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You misunderstand me, saying it is result of fireworks is purely speculation. Whether or not one wants to believes experts saying that birds die simultaneously in flocks in the same area.. is well... a matter of choice.
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You misunderstand me, saying it is result of fireworks is purely speculation.
I think I partly misunderstood you. The 5000 deaths have been scientifically examined and the tentative findings are that it was fireworks. I don't know about the rest, but again the scientific explanation is that the total number of deaths is nothing out of the ordinary. (Fireworks are of course not natural, but they're not out of the ordinary for birds living near humans.)
Whether or not one wants to believes experts saying that birds die simultaneously in flocks in the same area.. is well... a matter of choice.
That's exactly my point! What one wants to believe is their choice. However, this is a science forum, so discussions here are supposed to be based on science, not belief.
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Science... is a rationale. How about this then.
You surely would appreciate how statistically improbable it is for thousands of independant birds to die simultaneously? Biological systems like that do not operate in that kind of way... deaths are singular, not a collective.
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Using words like "statistially improbable" doesn't mean anything unless you have statistical evidence to back up your point. You've just couched your opinion in scientific-sounding jargon, but it's still just your opinion.
On the other hand, scientists are using science to say that these deaths aren't statistically improbable at all.
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JP
Listen to the arguement you are backing. Groups of birds do not die simultaneously. This would invoke some kind of collective dependance.
You are a physicist! Are you being serious about this claim?? I am perplexed how anyone can take that seriously - birds do not die collectively (as in large groups simultaneously) - they are individual mobile matter who are independant of the deaths that partake around them.
And no, I could not possibly do the calculation because... they are far to complex! Not because I would not give it a good stab. One bird dying at the same time as another bird is improbable, but perhaps believable. Thousands upon thousands is stretching the imagination somewhat.
If I am wrong about this, then perhaps this is one of my biggest blunders. But seriously, when talking about (as a standpoint from your side of the arguement) how science does not draw from work which has no scientific background, is about as lame as someone who uses scientific evidence which is to the contrary belief or rationale. If indeed bird deaths behaved this way, I would see flocks of birds die simultaneously all the time. In fact there should be a high probability that tomorrow I would walk out the house to find it patched in dead birds. But this is not going to happen, because biological deaths do not occur this way.
Does anyone else take that explanation seriously?
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You misunderstand me, saying it is result of fireworks is purely speculation.
I think I partly misunderstood you. The 5000 deaths have been scientifically examined and the tentative findings are that it was fireworks. I don't know about the rest, but again the scientific explanation is that the total number of deaths is nothing out of the ordinary. (Fireworks are of course not natural, but they're not out of the ordinary for birds living near humans.)
Whether or not one wants to believes experts saying that birds die simultaneously in flocks in the same area.. is well... a matter of choice.
That's exactly my point! What one wants to believe is their choice. However, this is a science forum, so discussions here are supposed to be based on science, not belief.
Also JP, the fireworks theory only works for maybe new year and the day after... maybe a few rogue fireworks in the days or weeks to come. The fact that deaths have occurred in quite a matured stretch of time after new year, kind of invalidates that theory.
As Holmes once said, Once you eliminate the impossible, no matter how improbable, whatever shall remain, must be the truth.
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Even if you make your opinion several paragraphs. It's still opinion. You haven't given any science to support it. I take it you don't have any?
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Do not misrepresent this as something where evidence is required. Rational thought is a requisite.
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Do not misrepresent this as something where evidence is required.
Say what?
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As Holmes once said, Once you eliminate the impossible, no matter how improbable, whatever shall remain, must be the truth.
Trouble is i) Holmes was fictional ii) it not true, it presupposes that one's factbase is complete and unchallengeable iii) it's hubris of the worse sort to assume one can envisage every possibility and iv) let's face it conan-doyle believed passionately about the fairies at the end of the garden.
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Or, they birds could have been out on the razz...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/12170571
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Or, they birds could have been out on the razz...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/12170571
Sorry V, I'm not buying it. This is obviously an evil portent. I'm sure there must be something about it in the Nostradamus quatrains.
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Ok ok, we have some folk who it appears will believe anything they are told if the sentence contains scientist!
Logic would indicate that aniamls don't die in large numbers at the same time unless there are external factors. Salmon maybe but that is part of their lifecyle and part of the process of reproduction.
Birds on the other hand are a completely different story. So far we have been presented with several explanations including;
[8]They flew into power lines
[8]The fireworks did it
[8]They were drunk!
[8]They flew into things
[8]Hail in the upper atmosphere
[8]Lighting strikes
[8]Other adverse weather conditions
Now these all seem a little bit silly to say the least. Why is it that no one in the reports has been interviewd that have an opinion that these deaths might be caused by;
[8]Poisoning
[8]Disease
[8]Viri
[8]Pollution
[8]Or other man made causes
Logical interpretations as to what would cause a large numbers of deaths over a period of several hours seems to be painfully missing from the dis-information so far propagated about these deaths.
Strangely enough I have not seen any reports that God did this, and considering most people on the planet are religious I wonder why? Most of the people on this forum would say well God didn't do it as that is not logical and your only saying that because there is no other explanation. There are other explanations but they have been ignored and replaced by nonsense!
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Sorry Airthumbs, but I think they got you [:D]
By "they", I mean the media. What happened here was that one notable event attracted sufficient media interest that suddenly, any similar events were reported across the World. If it had not been for the initial event in the US, the other events probably would not have received any global attention at all.
I can't prove it, because I don't have the data, but I suspect similar bird deaths are not uncommon for a whole variety of reasons, but suddenly, thanks to The Associated Press, we are all "tuned in" and looking for means to relate what are more likely to be unrelated events.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110107/ap_on_sc/us_sci_dead_wildlife_fact_check
On average, 163 such events are reported to the federal government each year, according to USGS records.
That's just in the US, so it's no wonder that seemingly every day something's being reported somewhere.
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Having seen the press reports and read statements by such bodies as the RSPB, I think perhaps we must accept that the original report on the Arkansas deaths did stir up the press. This has resulted in cases, which might otherwise have gone unreported, being given a high profile. This has resulted in us being made aware of, and concerned about, incidents which have been happening without our knowledge. It seems that these mass deaths are nothing new. But should this revelation bring us comfort, or should we be all the more concerned?
The question remains, why is it happening, are humans in any way to blame (or partly to blame) and if so, should we not be investigating these occurrences to find the cause and put our house in order to bring about an end to such mass deaths?
So far as I can see, nobody has given a satisfactory answer as to why these mass deaths occur. Personally, the dismissal of the whole affair with the explanation that it is 'a regular occurrence around the world' does nothing for me. Quite the contrary, I am now even more concerned.
We are concerned, and quite rightly so, over CCD in honey bees. 10's of millions of £'s/$'s are being spent on research into this catastrophic problem. But let's be honest, our main concern is not for the bees, but for the consequences to our agriculture. If these mass bird and fish deaths had a direct impact on our food, we would be concerned and huge sums would be allotted to research. But since there has been no impact on our food, governments seem to have taken little or no notice.
I would suggest that, if only for our own benefit, we should take a close look at these incidents before they do have a knock-on effect which might put our agriculture at risk. Who knows, perhaps these mass deaths and CCD are linked in some way, even if the incidents themselves are not.
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Could the answer here be extrapolated to explain the mass death of the dinosaur?
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Could the answer here be extrapolated to explain the mass death of the dinosaur?
Probably only with extraextraextrapolation. [:D]
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I thought I had responded yesterday, but apparently it got lost.
Just be thankful it isn't ANOTHER mass die-off of Sperm Whales... which makes a much nastier mess to clean up [xx(]
I think there is an aspect of being over-reported due to occurring just after New Years, then hitting global news.
However, I am glad that government agencies are taking them seriously. Hopefully storing some tissue from unresolved cases too, as we learn about new viruses and toxins every day.
In the 30's some astute researchers made some very important discoveries after local farmers brought cows in with internal hemorrhaging after eating moldy hay.
http://purplemedicalblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/coumadin-warfarin-how-farmers-moldy.html
A flock of birds would tend to all eat from a single food source. So, if there were some bad berries or grains, every one might get some. If it is a local issue, it might be very species selective in one area, but not carry over to another area.
There have been observed and predicted changes in Earth's magnetic field. Will that cause mass bird die-offs?
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I've been keeping a close eye on reports, as you will all know by now. There is more, and JP you might find this interesting. In a conversation with Jack Sarfatti, a quantum physicists he made a mention of statistics involving the dead birds, saying that there deaths surely cannot be a coincidence. A new report says, '' how long can scientists say this is a normal thing''
http://stardrive.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3102:300-birds-fall-from-the-sky-in-alabama-how-much-longer-can-scientists-keep-saying-this-is-normal&catid=45:weird-desk&Itemid=103
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[???]
Despite the article title, the entire article is about how these deaths are pretty normal, and includes plenty of statistics and interviews supporting that.
If you want to go to quantum physicists to argue about what caused the bird deaths, check out Michio Kaku on it. Heck--I've published quantum physics research, and I'll weigh in to tell you that it's not an issue.
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Please don't tell me you agree with Kaku on this, the whole idea of mass suicide seems... unlikely.
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Did you bother to read either the article or watch the video before linking them? Your posts recently have indicated that you aren't really reading what you're posting to understand it...
Kaku's "suicide" idea is that the lead bird of a flock got confused and crashed into something. The whole flock instinctively follows him and crashes into something as well.
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Did you bother to read either the article or watch the video before linking them? Your posts recently have indicated that you aren't really reading what you're posting to understand it...
Kaku's "suicide" idea is that the lead bird of a flock got confused and crashed into something. The whole flock instinctively follows him and crashes into something as well.
What kind of question is that? I am not half-hearted in this conversation or anything. I watched the video before I posted it, and I also read the link. Point is that his opinion doesn't make sense.
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http://stardrive.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3102:300-birds-fall-from-the-sky-in-alabama-how-much-longer-can-scientists-keep-saying-this-is-normal&catid=45:weird-desk&Itemid=103
Is mass snow "normal" in Alabama?
I'm not sure if I've ever hit a bird in the car. Sometimes I think it will be close, but they always slip aside.
But, I could imagine a flock of birds... perhaps disoriented by the snow. Perhaps hungry. And, getting hit.
Is it surprising to find animals dead beside a freeway that are reported to be killed by trauma?
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I don't know.
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Is it surprising to find animals dead beside a freeway that are reported to be killed by trauma?
On our last trip to Washington, we must have seen 50 dead deer beside the highway that appeared to have been killed by "blunt force trauma". Sometimes there were a couple of carcasses within a few feet of each other. [B)]
I didn't seem to be indicative of a national emergency though. [xx(]
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On our last trip to Washington, we must have seen 50 dead deer beside the highway that appeared to have been killed by "blunt force trauma". Sometimes there were a couple of carcasses within a few feet of each other. [B)]
Just out of curiosity is that W... DC, W...State, or least likely W... Tyne and Wear. If it was Tyne and Wear 50 dead deers would probably constitute a national emergency.
Are the deer killed by trucks? I would have thought if they were hitting family cars you would have also seen 50 car wrecks as well.
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On our last trip to Washington, we must have seen 50 dead deer beside the highway that appeared to have been killed by "blunt force trauma". Sometimes there were a couple of carcasses within a few feet of each other. [B)]
Just out of curiosity is that W... DC, W...State, or least likely W... Tyne and Wear. If it was Tyne and Wear 50 dead deers would probably constitute a national emergency.
Are the deer killed by trucks? I would have thought if they were hitting family cars you would have also seen 50 car wrecks as well.
I suspect he's referring to WA. That's the one on the left coast of the US just below Canada.
We're pretty much inundated with whitetail deer around here (North Idaho). You really have to be prepared for them all the time when you are driving.
Unless you are driving really fast, a deer collision usually does not do too much damage to the vehicle, particularly if you are driving a pickup truck, but the deer seldom survive. Elk collisions are much worse, and moose collisions are frequently fatal to the occupants of the vehicle.
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Yes...
from Oregon up to central Washington State over Christmas. I'm trying to remember where, but I think we saw most of the deer north of the Columbia... and perhaps it was only a dozen or two.
A deer certainly can do significant damage to the plastic grills on a vehicle, but it certainly would all depend on the speed of the impact. And in rural areas, people usually get their car going again, but leave the deer beside the road (I'm not sure why more don't end up as dinner, although it technically isn't legal to take it home).
Anyway, I was just commenting about the dead birds seen in Alabama (I think). Whew, it looked cold down there. But not many people get too excited about "road kill".
I would have hated to be the driver that slammed into the flock of birds down there... like a Hitchcock Nightmare.
High numbers of Road Kill often means that there is a large population of living animals nearby.
I would blame some of it on odd weather patterns this last winter, not that I'm ready to accuse the weather patterns pummelling Europe and the Eastern USA is man-made. And the migratory animals have to be stable enough to endure the occasional unpredictable weather pattern.
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The reason that I mentioned car-wrecks was that my uncle's car was completed wrecked and written-off when he hit a red deer. I did a quick wiki on the relative size of the deer concerned - red deer weigh about twice as much as white-tail, therein lies the problem when you hit one (as geezer mentioned with Elk/Moose). Same Uncle had deer jump clean over moving car - no one believed him about that story until a few months later he wrote the car off hitting one.
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http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2011/0120/Bye-Bye-Blackbird-USDA-acknowledges-a-hand-in-one-mass-bird-death
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I have it, the birds are so sick of the food they eat being full of chemicals and the taste is so bad they just decided to fly straight into the ground. They most likely did this in the vain hope that they might be noticed but would be very disappointed to discover there martyrdom was for nothing as humans say that kind of behavior is normal!