Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 20:15:34

Title: Energy Conservation ?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 20:15:34
I had a Follow Up Query regarding this Question of The Week.

QotW - 21.09.13 - Where does the extra energy go when light is stretched?



What extra energy ?

The Sun for example radiates the surrounding space with photon energy , the energy is dispersed equally and  proportionally into the surrounding space . The photons will divide their energy in accordance with the inverse square  law , the more space to divide in , the weaker the photon energy becomes by divide .
There isn't any extra energy I know of , can you please explain more of what you mean by extra energy ?

I have 16cdfa8168314e6628a47d757870da26.gif/t
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 20:38:18
But what if that same Space Contracts somehow...then Does the Light/Energy Re-emerge from the Darkness?
Expanding space will red shift (stretch) photons wavelength.  Contracting space would blueshift (compress) photons

Why are you expanding space instead of expanding space-time which itself is relative to visual matter ?

Space is independent of space-time , quantum fields are independent of space-time , space-time is relative !

Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 20:42:30
Space being independent of space-time is an oxymoron. Space-time contains space. Space is the only component of space-time that can expand, as time doesn't have a size. It doesn't make sense for something without a size to expand.
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Eternal Student on 15/10/2021 20:45:31
Hi @Black hole,
   I've not seen you before so.....  Hi !    and I hope you are well etc.

There isn't any extra energy I know of , can you please explain more of what you mean by extra energy ?
    The OP (Zer0) was posting a question that is a follow up to this podcast:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/sites/default/files/media/podcasts/episodes/Naked_Scientists_QotW_21.09.13.mp3

Which is also discussed in this thread:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=83011.0

   Those should help to set the background.

Best Wishes.


Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 20:53:14
Space being independent of space-time is an oxymoron. Space-time contains space. Space is the only component of space-time that can expand, as time doesn't have a size. It doesn't make sense for something without a size to expand.

Oh please , didn't you understand what you learnt from education and teachers ?   

Take the earths quantum field for example that is dependent to the Earth and extends into space . The earths quantum field is independent of space as are any fields . Einsteins space-time curvature is field curvature relative to flat space . How can space-time curve if it is interwoven with space ? There would be no comparative .
Next you'll be telling me the poles are going to flip ? More dogma as the Earths magnetic field is not independent of the earth .
Sorry but I am a physicist and you obviously didn't understand that Einsteins space-time is a coordinate system relative to visual matter . No more no less but great thinking and a very valuable tool !

Field line curvature such as the earths field lines are independent events of space !

Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 20:55:27
Hi @Black hole,
   I've not seen you before so.....  Hi !    and I hope you are well etc.

There isn't any extra energy I know of , can you please explain more of what you mean by extra energy ?
    The OP (Zer0) was posting a question that is a follow up to this podcast:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/sites/default/files/media/podcasts/episodes/Naked_Scientists_QotW_21.09.13.mp3

Which is also discussed in this thread:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=83011.0

   Those should help to set the background.

Best Wishes.

Thank you for the links , I will catch up on the information in the links and get back to you !
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 20:56:34
Space-time, by the very definition of what it is, contains space.

You're a physicist? Where did you get your degree from? What company do you work for?
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 21:27:40
Space-time, by the very definition of what it is, contains space.

You're a physicist? Where did you get your degree from? What company do you work for?

I do not answer irrelevant questions prying into my identity , thanks for understanding .

''In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model which fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional manifold. Spacetime diagrams can be used to visualize relativistic effects, such as why different observers perceive differently where and when events occur.'' Quoted from Wikipedia .

Space-time is a mathematical model , by space it means distance , not the actual space . That is the mistake you are making in your own understanding . You are considering space and quantum fields are as one , that is not the case !

Space-time is an exceptionally brilliant model that allows us to predict things  , comet vectors for example .

The Universe is visually expanding , we observe this because of the red-shift of distant visual bodies . Quantum fields can expand with increased energy as can matter , metal for example . Expansion , curvature is all relative to flat space that is independent of all matter .

Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 21:31:37
I do not answer irrelevant questions prying into my identity , thanks for understanding .

I'm very doubtful you are actually a physicist. An amateur researcher, perhaps.

by space it means distance , not the actual space

Distance is what space is.
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 22:32:13


Quote
Distance is what space is.
  Distance isn't what space is , distance is an unspecified measure  i.e That chair is a distance away

Space is a vast expanse that is occupied by matter relative to our visual boundaries and knowledge so far .

Beyond the space we can visual observe may be empty space , void of all matter .

I was hoping this forum wouldn't leave me knocking on empty doors for discussion  but you don't seem to understand the difference between space and space-time . I hope you understand now after my effort to explain to you ?

This is a very common mistake to make and most people make this mistake when trying to understand Einsteins work !

Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 22:36:45
Distance isn't what space is , distance is an unspecified measure  i.e That chair is a distance away

Space is a vast expanse that is occupied by matter relative to our visual boundaries and knowledge so far .

Here's what dictionary.com has to say about that:

Distance: "an amount of space between two things or people."
Space: "the dimensions of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move."

I was hoping this forum wouldn't leave me knocking on empty doors for discussion

Why did you think your visit here this time would be different from last time?
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: alancalverd on 15/10/2021 23:15:17
Sorry but I am a physicist
Most of us think a physicist is someone who at least understands physics.
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 23:51:22



Space: "the dimensions of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move."




That is true and also not true .
This definition explains space has a measure xyz , the definition does not describe what is being measured in regards to substance/physicality.

I explained earlier that space is a vast expanse that is occupied by matter . Do you disagree with that ? 

Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 23:53:46
Hi @Black hole,
   I've not seen you before so.....  Hi !    and I hope you are well etc.

There isn't any extra energy I know of , can you please explain more of what you mean by extra energy ?
    The OP (Zer0) was posting a question that is a follow up to this podcast:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/sites/default/files/media/podcasts/episodes/Naked_Scientists_QotW_21.09.13.mp3

Which is also discussed in this thread:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=83011.0

   Those should help to set the background.

Best Wishes.

I explained in the link thread the difference is 0 .
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 23:56:28
@Black hole Stop posting about your alternative views in the main section of the forum. Keep it in "New Theories". You have already been warned about this.
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Black hole on 16/10/2021 00:13:48
@Black hole Stop posting about your alternative views in the main section of the forum. Keep it in "New Theories". You have already been warned about this.

What alternative view ? Physics can only be viewed and understood one way to be precise and if a person hasn't got that exact understanding they will just become confused and make all sorts of bat crap theories up based on  their own understanding rather than the scientific truths . A person will also give the wrong answers if their own understanding is not  quite on par to understanding some of the more intricate details .
Anyway this thread is the  laws of conservation and I don't want to ruin this thread so I will refrain now from this thread . I'd be happy to take up definitions with you in a just chat thread if you'd like to continue to debate about definitions and understanding of those definitions . I suppose we should start an English Literature thread because whom ever writes these definitions is presenting them incorrectly !
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: Kryptid on 16/10/2021 00:18:07
What alternative view ?

Your understanding of space and space-time is not the mainstream one.

A person will also give the wrong answers if their own understanding is not  quite on par to understanding some of the more intricate details .

Case in point: thinking that the Sun isn't made of plasma...

I'd be happy to take up definitions with you in a just chat thread if you'd like to continue to debate about definitions and understanding of those definitions

Feel free to do so, just let this thread not be derailed further.
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: BilboGrabbins on 16/10/2021 08:32:08
When light is stretched? Are you referring to tired light? This is just a redshift on light. There's no missing energy.
Title: Re: Re: Law of Conservation of Energy?
Post by: BilboGrabbins on 16/10/2021 08:36:27
Some of the lights energy in this idea is given up to collisions as well which I should have said, but it's still all accounted for.