Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 18:35:42

Title: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 18:35:42


1. So... Photons lack mass
   

Where do you get the impression from that Photons do not have mass ? The Sun is a huge ''ball'' of photons and the Sun has mass . If you add photons to a block a metal , the block gains mass .
Perhaps you need to learn physics before you make such statements ?
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Aeris on 15/10/2021 19:00:56


1. So... Photons lack mass
   

Where do you get the impression from that Photons do not have mass ? The Sun is a huge ''ball'' of photons and the Sun has mass . If you add photons to a block a metal , the block gains mass .
Perhaps you need to learn physics before you make such statements ?

Ummm... the Sun's made out of Plasma buddy, not Photons. It merely radiates the energy it generates from the Nuclear Fusion processes happening in its core as Photons (and other cool stuff such as Gamma Rays and UV).

Also, yes shoving a bunch of Photons onto some metal will make it heavier. That wasn't what I was asking. I was asking how light was able to move matter (like metal) through momentum which I didn't know the location it borrowed it from.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 19:21:40


1. So... Photons lack mass
   

Where do you get the impression from that Photons do not have mass ? The Sun is a huge ''ball'' of photons and the Sun has mass . If you add photons to a block a metal , the block gains mass .
Perhaps you need to learn physics before you make such statements ?

Ummm... the Sun's made out of Plasma buddy, not Photons. It merely radiates the energy it generates from the Nuclear Fusion processes happening in its core as Photons (and other cool stuff such as Gamma Rays and UV).

Also, yes shoving a bunch of Photons onto some metal will make it heavier. That wasn't what I was asking. I was asking how light was able to move matter (like metal) through momentum which I didn't know the location it borrowed it from.

The Sun glows if you haven't noticed and it emits itself in the form of photons .  You stated in your question that photons have no mass which I have corrected you on . EMR is photons and can push light sails around space because the photons apply mass pressure on the sail causing momentum . Plasma is actually photon density that glows too . Without photons you wouldn't see the plasma ! Additionally Plasma has more density the sun , the sun is more like molten lava and the colour we observe shows this . Plasma is much more towards 450nm frequency .


Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 20:46:01
The Sun is made almost entirely of hydrogen and helium plasma. That is very different from lava (which is much cooler, a liquid, and contains mostly silicate-bearing minerals).
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 21:12:28
The Sun is made almost entirely of hydrogen and helium plasma. That is very different from lava (which is much cooler, a liquid, and contains mostly silicate-bearing minerals).

The frequency of light emitted by the Sun is not 450nm or lower which plasma generates . I know the Sun is very different than Lava but that does not excuse the fact that the Sun is neither nothing like Plasma . Additionally the Suns molecular make up  is only theory and not absolute fact , we have never been to the Sun to gain a sample of its molecular components .
The wave lengths of light emitted from the Sun are not the same as Plasma therefore it is very unlikely the Sun is a ball of Plasma . Perhaps if the magnetic bottling of space-time increased in magnitude , then the Sun indeed may be compressed into a denser form and emit ''blue light'' 450nm or lower .
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 21:17:34
The frequency of light emitted by the Sun is not 450nm or lower which plasma generates .

That depends upon the temperature of the plasma in question.

that does not excuse the fact that the Sun is neither nothing like Plasma .

It's a hot, ionized gas. That's plasma, by definition.

Additionally the Suns molecular make up  is only theory

"Only theory" is a misunderstanding of what scientific theory is.

we have never been to the Sun to gain a sample of its molecular components .

We don't have to. We can not only sample the solar wind but also deduce its composition from its spectrum.

The wave lengths of light emitted from the Sun are not the same as Plasma

Citation needed.

Perhaps if the magnetic bottling of space-time increased in magnitude

That doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 21:41:12


It's a hot, ionized gas. That's plasma, by definition.

By strict definition ?



Quote
Citation needed.


White light is a mixture of frequencies ! Do I really need to chase up citations for you when quite apparent to our own vision the Sun is orange looking to our own vision ?
What frequency is orange ?
The Sun must emit orange light ?



 

Perhaps if the magnetic bottling of space-time increased in magnitude

Quote
That doesn't make sense.
Perhaps not at this time but it will become apparent the longer I decide to stay on this forum !
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 21:43:22
By strict definition ?

That's one of the definitions. Another definition is any material with an "electron sea", in which case solid metals are plasmas as well.

White light is a mixture of frequencies !

I never said otherwise.

Do I really need to chase up citations for you when quite apparent to our own vision the Sun is orange looking to our own vision ?

It's not really orange. It's much closer to white.

Perhaps not at this time but it will become apparent the longer I decide to stay on this forum !

I have my doubts.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 22:02:42


That's one of the definitions. Another definition is any material with an "electron sea", in which case solid metals are plasmas as well.

I would describe Plasma as a highly dense state of light formed by kinetic actions . Which neither orange or white would describe . I think you'd probably prefer if I used term black body radiation ? A mass of photons so dense that they became visually dark in appearance (black).

In theory to achieve that , the centripetal force applied on the event would have to be a magnetic field of equal density .

Sorry, perhaps I should start a thread on the beginners guide to Plasma physics to save interrupting this lovely thread?

Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 22:03:56
I would describe Plasma as a highly dense state of light formed by kinetic actions .

Then your description is wrong.

In theory to achieve that , the centripetal force applied on the event would have to be a magnetic field of equal density .

I see that you aren't making any more sense than you were the last time you graced our forums.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 22:13:30
I would describe Plasma as a highly dense state of light formed by kinetic actions .

Quote
Then your description is wrong.
Plasma is an higher density form of energy ! Perhaps you rely too much on google search rather than actually talking to physics professors ?


In theory to achieve that , the centripetal force applied on the event would have to be a magnetic field of equal density .

Quote
I see that you aren't making any more sense than you were the last time you graced our forums.
My first and my last visit if you are going to start to be rude and making accusations !
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 22:18:03
Plasma is an higher density form of energy

No, it isn't. Here's the dictionary.com definition: "an ionized gas consisting of positive ions and free electrons in proportions resulting in more or less no overall electric charge"

If you think you are correct, then cite a source to support your definition.

My first and my last visit if you are going to start to be rude and making accusations !

How stupid do you think I am? Your particular brand of nonsense has a very particular flavor to it.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 22:44:50
Plasma is an higher density form of energy

No, it isn't. Here's the dictionary.com definition: "an ionized gas consisting of positive ions and free electrons in proportions resulting in more or less no overall electric charge"

If you think you are correct, then cite a source to support your definition.

My first and my last visit if you are going to start to be rude and making accusations !

How stupid do you think I am? Your particular brand of nonsense has a very particular flavor to it.

Dear sir , I do not think you are stupid at all so please do not take offense .

Physicists try their best to advance physics , we do not sit around just quoting stereotypical information . Please forgive me for my arrogance but some of this you may of not heard before !

I mentioned Black body radiation , it is not the same subject as Wikipedia black body radiation !

In plasma physics an infinitesimally small point can be occupied by infinite photons . Theoretically we would observe a black body of radiation , so highly dense even light wouldn't escape and so hot because of the potential energy it would power an entire visual universe .

Now do I have your interest ?



 
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 22:48:23
In plasma physics an infinitesimally small point can be occupied by infinite photons

Photons have a finite size.

Theoretically we would observe a black body of radiation , so highly dense even light wouldn't escape

That's called a black hole.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 23:05:37
Actually in this instant it is called a black body radiation !

No, it's not.

Not knowing at this time  whether an infinite amount of photons occupying the same infinitesimally small point , will have any potential gravitational influence on its surroundings .

It will. It will have infinite gravity because it will have infinite mass.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: alancalverd on 15/10/2021 23:11:39
Physicists try their best to advance physics , we do not sit around just quoting stereotypical information .
On what planet are you considered to be a physicist?
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 23:12:18
On what planet are you considered to be a physicist?

Planet "Thebox", probably.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 23:18:57
Actually in this instant it is called a black body radiation !

Quote
No, it's not.

I've already explained in a previous post that it IS NOT the same black body radiation as Wikipedia !

Didn't you read that part ?

Yes it is called a black body radiation because it would be dark in appearance due to the density and of course light is electromagnetic radiation .



Not knowing at this time  whether an infinite amount of photons occupying the same infinitesimally small point , will have any potential gravitational influence on its surroundings .

Quote
It will. It will have infinite gravity because it will have infinite mass.
  Then if that is your conclusion it may form a new type of a black hole but that isn't my conclusion .

I conclude as stated earlier we would not know the affect at this time because we have never achieved or observed such an event !

What makes you so sure photons have mass   ? 

A laser beam for example will not curve towards the ground !
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 23:21:57
I've already explained in a previous post that it IS NOT the same black body radiation as Wikipedia !

It is, however, the same thing as a black hole formed from photons (otherwise known as a "kugelblitz").

Then if that is your conclusion it may form a new type of a black hole but that isn't my conclusion .

Then your conclusion isn't based on the known laws of physics.

I conclude as stated earlier we would not know the affect at this time because we have never achieved or observed such an event !

We know enough about physics to have a really good idea of what would probably happen.

What makes you so sure photons have mass   ? 

E=mc2.

A laser beam for example will not curve towards the ground !

Actually, it should. Gravitational lensing is a confirmed phenomenon.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 15/10/2021 23:23:44
Physicists try their best to advance physics , we do not sit around just quoting stereotypical information .
On what planet are you considered to be a physicist?

Are all the moderators on this forum so disrespectful ?

I am kindly donating some of my time to this forum , giving you some ''food for thoughts'' and correcting some of the false understanding .

One of your moderators doesn't know the difference between space and space-time for heavens sake .

Are you really going to disrespect a professor of physics ?
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/10/2021 23:25:30
correcting some of the false understanding .

Where did you do that?

One of your moderators doesn't know the difference between space and space-time for heavens sake .

I'm aware of the difference. Space is a component of space-time.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: CrazyScientist on 16/10/2021 05:19:05
Not knowing at this time  whether an infinite amount of photons occupying the same infinitesimally small point , will have any potential gravitational influence on its surroundings .
Quote
It will. It will have infinite gravity because it will have infinite mass.

1. Sure, but only in a theory - as gravitational interactions between 2 or more photons weren't confirmed empirically up until this day...

To make things clear - It's not that I agree with OP and his "quite exotic" claims regarding the Sun being made of photons instead of plasma consisting (mostly) of hydrogen and helium ions, but I also don't like to take as granted, any theories that seem to be lackong any substantial evidence, to be considered as actuals cientific facts... Up until the gravitational attraction of 2+ photons won't be proved by a real-life observation, it will still remain to be classified to the "unproven/unverified" side of theoretical physics... Without any empirical evidence, the general idea of "kugelblitz" is just as true&valid as the dimensions, beyond the "standard" XYZ+t, in the "many-worlds interpretation" - that means with chances of them being true around 50/50 at it's best...

I'm saying all of this, because a lot of people like to speak in terms of absolutes and definitives in cases, where the subject in big part still remains a matter of discussion and is mostly unsettled among the scientific society. I would love to see a clear separation between solid scientific facts and unproven theories - and after doing a pretty decent research, I can tell, that the concept of "kugelblitz" belongs without a doubt to the second group,

Besides that:

2. There's no such thing in physical space, as infinitesimally small point - from what is known about the nature of dimensional space, Planck lenght is as close to be a "point of space", as we can get (in practice and in theory).- yet it still has a definitive and  measurable spatial distance, so the idea of a dimensionless point/unit of space doesn't go too well with actual practice...

3. Photons might have different or similar wavelenghts, thus occupy different/the same volumes of physical space and have different/same energies/masses. Photons at similar wavelenghts will be interferring with each other in the same volume of physical space, leading to different results, than in the case of non-interferring photons at different wavelenghts - for example, in the first case, we might end up with a destructive or a constructive interferrence of photons at similar/the same wavelenghts, that at one time.are occupying the same general volume of space.... Just saying :)
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: The Spoon on 16/10/2021 12:50:18
Are you really going to disrespect a professor of physics ?
Ah, The Box again in his nonsense fantasy world. You are no more a professor than I am James Bond.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Origin on 16/10/2021 13:13:16
Are you really going to disrespect a professor of physics ?
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/79/a4/fc/79a4fc9e6da41e527e7bc0efbc5eb259.jpg)
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/10/2021 15:14:03
The frequency of light emitted by the Sun is not 450nm or lower which plasma generates
Anyone with sunburn is evidence that this is wrong.
But it's also wrong in that plasma typically emits many wavelengths- including visible ones.
The archetypal example is something like lightning or a neon sign.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/10/2021 15:16:12
Are all the moderators on this forum so disrespectful ?
What do you feel that you have done to earn any respect?

Are you really going to disrespect a professor of physics ?
If one turns up then maybe, but until then it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 16/10/2021 16:31:29



To make things clear - It's not that I agree with OP and his "quite exotic" claims regarding the Sun being made of photons instead of plasma

Can somebody please quote where I say or suggest the Sun is made of just photons ?

The Suns components are electrons and protons that are in an excited state  which produces kinetic energy . The produced kinetic energy is emitted , known as electromagnetic radiation (light).

To explain this to none physicists , E=mc^2 , consider flints and the spark !

''The particles of the Sun are in a tumble drier colliding together under extreme pressure .''
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Black hole on 16/10/2021 16:38:35


2. There's no such thing in physical space, as infinitesimally small point - from what is known about the nature of dimensional space, Planck lenght is as close to be a "point of space", as we can get (in practice and in theory).- yet it still has a definitive and  measurable spatial distance, so the idea of a dimensionless point/unit of space doesn't go too well with actual practice...


  I replied in another thread from a paper I read : (x0,y0,z0)   

(x0)+(x0)=x1 is the smallest possible vector and scalar length .

Displacing the point one point .

Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Kryptid on 16/10/2021 17:33:15
The Suns components are electrons and protons

You're forgetting the neutrons.
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/10/2021 12:51:20
excited state  which produces kinetic energy
No it doesn't.
The produced kinetic energy is emitted , known as electromagnetic radiation (light).
EM radiation isn't kinetic energy, it is EM energy- there's a hint in the name.

Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/10/2021 13:50:12
Can somebody please quote where I say or suggest the Sun is made of just photons ?
Sure.

Where do you get the impression from that Photons do not have mass ? The Sun is a huge ''ball'' of photons and the Sun has mass .
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: Zer0 on 17/10/2021 17:13:20

Perhaps you need to learn physics before you make such statements ?
[/quote]

EDIT - KARMA!!!
🤞
Title: Re: Is the sun photons?
Post by: The Spoon on 17/10/2021 19:42:49
Are you really going to disrespect a professor of physics ?
So come on, why do you tell such ridiculous lies? Do you enjoy people viewing you as a fool?